After being haxed to death by Froslass I can honestly say I think it needs to go. I was sitting comfortably at number 5 on the ladder before I was haxed to death in 7 battles against stinking Froslass.
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np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Can we not ban abilities, and kick out Froslass instead? We didn't ban Sand Veil in OU, we banned Garchomp. There's a major consistency issue if we ban Snow Cloak from UU, but didn't ban Sand Veil in OU. Plus, Froslass has one ability. With Snow Cloak banned, Froslass would be Soft Banned anyways, along with the NU Beartic, who is not broken at all. Why should we necessarily ban an extra Pokemon when we know it to be not broken? Nobody complains about Snow Cloak Glaceon or Mammoswine. Even with the evasion neither of those two Pokemon are doing something significant or game breaking, except possibly hitting again. But since both are commonly choiced and some very common things resist their stabs, the worst that might happen is you have a last ditch revenge kill thrown off. Froslass on the other hand sets up layer after layer of Spikes, and can amplify Snow Cloak with Thunder Wave and Substitute, and her sticking around allows her to keep her Spikes down by blocking spin.
Just wanted to say that this is a terrible argument, and I could just as easily say Froslass without Spikes is just a weak but annoying attacker. Without her Ghost-typing, high base speed, or Substitute or some other integral part of her is clearly not broken. Snow Cloak is part of Froslass and, as such, shouldn't be banned to nerf Froslass, to squeeze her into the metagame (which it doesn't actually do, since Cursed Body hasn't been released according to the stickied thread, but that is what it tries to do), especially when Snow Cloak is not broken on all of its users, so it, itself cannot be broken.
May I ask why people are having so many problems with Froslass?What is the difference between Froslass dodging a few attacks (maybe) and setting up Spikes and something like Deo-D tanking the hits and setting up Spikes?More annoying seeing an attack miss vs it doing no damage?
Pokemon aren't banned based on annoyance.God knows if that was the case Jirachi and Togekiss would be Uber.Froslass has almost no attacking ability and no defenses.It also requires Abomasnow on the team.This stacks common weaknesses like fire and rock.I'm not saying it isn't annoying but like I said,many Pokes have hax sets like ParaFusion or ParaFlinch.
I'm honestly wondering.Looking at June stats, Froslass is #27 and Abomasnow is sitting at #35 yet I see people wanting to nominate either Froslass or Snow Warning just because it is "annoying".I thought things were banned for being broken instead of on whim.Speaking of which, why was Wobbuffet allowed to be voted on when it is an RU Poke?
Pokemon aren't banned based on annoyance.God knows if that was the case Jirachi and Togekiss would be Uber.Froslass has almost no attacking ability and no defenses.It also requires Abomasnow on the team.This stacks common weaknesses like fire and rock.I'm not saying it isn't annoying but like I said,many Pokes have hax sets like ParaFusion or ParaFlinch.
I'm honestly wondering.Looking at June stats, Froslass is #27 and Abomasnow is sitting at #35 yet I see people wanting to nominate either Froslass or Snow Warning just because it is "annoying".I thought things were banned for being broken instead of on whim.Speaking of which, why was Wobbuffet allowed to be voted on when it is an RU Poke?
Because people worry about banning things because they don't like them. People immediately see weather as bad because it's more broken in OU, so they assume it carries over to UU. It's painfully obvious that these Pokemon aren't broken. They get like 5 or 6% usage. And there's a ton of drawbacks to using them; namely, you get tons of SR weak Pokemon in a metagame where spinning is difficult (except for Foresight Hitmontop, but Hitmontop cannot restore its health and will eventually go down) and weaknesses to Fire, Rock, Steel, Fighting (except for Froslass). Froslass is frail as hell, her Blizzards aren't that powerful, and she can set up Spikes. Spikes are everywhere in UU whether there's Froslass or not. We have Deoxys fucking D with over 300 Speed and amazing defenses, and people call out Froslass as broken. It's really easy to get 3 layers of Spikes in this meta. Froslass just lets Hail teams get that too.
I completely agree with this post.I'm eager and willing to listen to the other side but it does just seem like people are just going ALL CAPS RAGE because evasion is involved.
I am more annoyed at Froslass then anything. I had a game where I outplayed the opponent at everyturn, yet still lost due to being Para'd 4 turns in a row, followed by 2 misses with a 100% accuracy move. And that happened the next battle I played against it too. Heck I even have probably the best counter to Froslass in the metagame on my team (Snorlax) and I still hate it.
I'm sorry to hear you got haxed to death but does annoyed=ban worthy?I've had a Skarmory flinch haxed to death by a Jirachi but I don't ask to see Jirachi going Uber and he can do his stuff without an outside Pokemon.I guess the question is simple.Is Froslass so annoying that it overrides the need to be determined broken?
There is no shortage of Pokemon that can switch into the other spikers and either force them out with a threatening attack or spin away their spikes. When facing Roserade, Deo-D, Scolipede, et al. you just switch to a counter (of which there are many) and they either switch out, sacrifice themselves, get spun on (froslass can't) or get their hazards bounced back (froslass beats xatu.) Froslass is different.
Froslass in hail will generally be used with sub and t-wave, so you either have to hit it with the Pokemon it comes in on (and hope it hits) or switch to a poke that can (kinda, sometimes) counter it and have a sub set up on you, followed by either a Twave or layer of spikes. Most of the pokes that can counter froslass (provided no parahax or snow cloak bs) are offensive ones who hate to be paralyzed, and take moderate damage from a respectable 80 SpA Blizzard. They will be taking hail damage on top of that. But in all likelihood, there will be at least one instance of either parahax or snow cloak activation, and you'll have a crippled sweeper and 2-3 spikes on your side of the field. There is just nothing you can do about it.
I don't want froslass banned because it "haxes" me, I want it banned because of how easy it is for froslass to get into a position where it will most likely get full spikes and ruin a pokemon.
Evasion is more than just annoying and has to be considered when discussing a Pokemon's ability. A combination of a lot of things make Lass such a great (broken imo) spiker. Snow Cloak, hail immunity, ghost typing, and an awesome speed stat go a long way to make froslass a whole other beast. I would never advocate a Mamoswine ban just because I hate missing moves, though I do. Mamoswine doesn't have thunder wave or an awesome speed stat to make the most of out it. People aren't necessarily just raging because evasion is involved, the problem is froslass can take advantage of this evasion to devastating effect.
This isn't as articulate as it could have been but it's late and whatever.
Froslass in hail will generally be used with sub and t-wave, so you either have to hit it with the Pokemon it comes in on (and hope it hits) or switch to a poke that can (kinda, sometimes) counter it and have a sub set up on you, followed by either a Twave or layer of spikes. Most of the pokes that can counter froslass (provided no parahax or snow cloak bs) are offensive ones who hate to be paralyzed, and take moderate damage from a respectable 80 SpA Blizzard. They will be taking hail damage on top of that. But in all likelihood, there will be at least one instance of either parahax or snow cloak activation, and you'll have a crippled sweeper and 2-3 spikes on your side of the field. There is just nothing you can do about it.
I don't want froslass banned because it "haxes" me, I want it banned because of how easy it is for froslass to get into a position where it will most likely get full spikes and ruin a pokemon.
Evasion is more than just annoying and has to be considered when discussing a Pokemon's ability. A combination of a lot of things make Lass such a great (broken imo) spiker. Snow Cloak, hail immunity, ghost typing, and an awesome speed stat go a long way to make froslass a whole other beast. I would never advocate a Mamoswine ban just because I hate missing moves, though I do. Mamoswine doesn't have thunder wave or an awesome speed stat to make the most of out it. People aren't necessarily just raging because evasion is involved, the problem is froslass can take advantage of this evasion to devastating effect.
This isn't as articulate as it could have been but it's late and whatever.
Focus
Ubers Tester Extraordinaire
Since the pointless ban on Brightpowder, I can imagine voters getting annoyed at Froslass a few times being enough to actually ban the thing.
Edit: However, what at ease said is true. Froslass is a powerful ally or a devastating opponent when used correctly. Still like using it, though.
If we relied on past precedent in making all our policy decisions we would have never banned drizzle/swift swim or moody either. Sometimes you have to do things that haven't been done before.
This is especially the case for something like Snow Cloak, which should have been banned on principle a long time ago. It makes no sense that we have banned double team/minimize/brightpowder when Snow Cloak has double the effect without using up an item slot or a moveslot and a turn. Given that we've already determined that Evasion Clause should stay (and have banned other abilities that boost evasion, like Moody) I don't see why Snow Cloak should be treated any different. Hopefully, if UU voters take the lead on this by banning evasion-boosting abilities, OU voters will be able to look at our example and do the same up there.
And if you don't think Snow Cloak is a problem on Mamoswine/Glaceon, you have either never played a hail team with an offensive team or run aura sphere on all your Pokemon. A single unlucky turn against either of those Pokemon can and has cost players the game. It does not break either of them, but it is certainly not trivial.
It's unfortunate that Froslass gets soft banned until Cursed Body is released and Mamoswine no longer gets egg moves due to being locked into Thick Fat, but barring another complex ban, those are necessary evils.
This isn't something we are pioneering here, like we were with Moody and Drizzle/Swift Swim. We are directly contradicting a notion that happened just one round before. Theres no point to contradict that. And UU isn't the place to challenge something that effects all metagames.
And, we were never given abilities like Moody before, something that was broken and given to multiple Pokemon. Drizzle/Drought work similarly by effecting multiple Pokemon, and it is the Pokemon's pressence, not the Pokemon themselves, that do the brokenness.
UU is not the place to argue adding Sand Veil/Snow Cloak to Evasion clause, feel free to bring that up in PR. Evasion Clause effects ALL metagames, not just UU.
Snow Cloak does not break either of them. Snow Cloak is not broken on 3/4 of its users, only on Froslass. Therefore Snow Cloak as a whole can not broken. As opposed to Moody which was broken on everything relevant.
I did mention that revenge killing is where Snow Cloak on those two Pokemon can make an effect, something that offensive teams rely on a lot, so naturally offensive teams would have more trouble.
I'm kinda pressed for time here, so I don't think I articulating everything as well as I could have.
On why Froslass deserves a close look (compared to TWave Jirachi with Iron Head): I have no direct experience with Jirachi since I don't play OU, but I'll still venture a few points. You can absorb TWave with a ground type that threatens Jirachi and are relatively secure vs. Iron Head. Against Froslass however, Blizzard / Ice Beam score super-effective hits on what is typically Ground Pokemon's weaker defense stat. With Hail also taking away Leftovers recovery this is not funny.
Another significant difference is that Froslass gets Spikes. You will be facing 3 layers of Spikes by the time you finally kill Froslass (if you kill Froslass before she kills you, anyway). 3 layers of Spikes is a huge advantage, and one that will persist later into the game. This does not happen with Jirachi.
Froslass without Snow Cloak is still in all likelihood a fine Pokemon, but I'd still be a lot happier dealing with it if I know my attacks won't miss.
On banning Snow Cloak vs. banning Froslass vs. banning Snow Warning: if it weren't because of the Swift Swim / Drizzle complex ban, I would have to support banning Froslass. But since Smogon started using complex bans, I don't see why it shouldn't continue. Why not ban Snow Warning / Snow Cloak?
We don't have to rehash similar arguments to "why don't we ban all the swift swimmers instead of Politoed" or "why don't we just ban Politoed". Since Smogon decided that banning Swift Swim + Drizzle is the best way forward, I would imagine banning Snow Warning + Snow Cloak is the most logical move.
For the record, I'm with FlareBlitz that Snow Cloak does not break Glaceon / Mamoswine, but it's relevant with them and we've already seen Substitute Glaceon to abuse Snow Cloak to the max ...
Also PR thread for all who're concerned: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102034
On Chansey partners: Chansey + Zapdos is roflstomped by Rhyperior, sadly, and Heracross can potentially break through too. I'm sure there are more Pokemon that I haven't thought off as well (Cobalion just popped into my head), and Zapdos is SR weak. At least Zapdos can phaze. Chansey + Weezing is weak to Mismagius and other special attackers that Chansey can't handle, viz. Azelf. Chansey + Spiritomb is again weak to Rhyperior, and many other physical attackers are big threats as well simply because they outspeed Spiritomb. Chansey + Mew is again weak to Mismagius, and again Heracross can break through.
Asking for a 2-man core that covers every threat in the metagame is perhaps asking for too much. After all, RegiMilo last gen was a superb defensive core but still left some weaknesses. Still, all these Chansey + X cores are weak to some of the most threatening Pokemon in the metagame. Azelf, Rhyperior, Arcanine, Heracross - these are among the defining forces in the tier. That you can't have a Chansey-core that can stand up to them is just ... disappointing, and the biggest reason why I haven't used Chansey on a balanced / offensive team. I'll give it more thought sometime though, maybe I can come up with something ...
Another significant difference is that Froslass gets Spikes. You will be facing 3 layers of Spikes by the time you finally kill Froslass (if you kill Froslass before she kills you, anyway). 3 layers of Spikes is a huge advantage, and one that will persist later into the game. This does not happen with Jirachi.
Froslass without Snow Cloak is still in all likelihood a fine Pokemon, but I'd still be a lot happier dealing with it if I know my attacks won't miss.
On banning Snow Cloak vs. banning Froslass vs. banning Snow Warning: if it weren't because of the Swift Swim / Drizzle complex ban, I would have to support banning Froslass. But since Smogon started using complex bans, I don't see why it shouldn't continue. Why not ban Snow Warning / Snow Cloak?
We don't have to rehash similar arguments to "why don't we ban all the swift swimmers instead of Politoed" or "why don't we just ban Politoed". Since Smogon decided that banning Swift Swim + Drizzle is the best way forward, I would imagine banning Snow Warning + Snow Cloak is the most logical move.
For the record, I'm with FlareBlitz that Snow Cloak does not break Glaceon / Mamoswine, but it's relevant with them and we've already seen Substitute Glaceon to abuse Snow Cloak to the max ...
Also PR thread for all who're concerned: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102034
On Chansey partners: Chansey + Zapdos is roflstomped by Rhyperior, sadly, and Heracross can potentially break through too. I'm sure there are more Pokemon that I haven't thought off as well (Cobalion just popped into my head), and Zapdos is SR weak. At least Zapdos can phaze. Chansey + Weezing is weak to Mismagius and other special attackers that Chansey can't handle, viz. Azelf. Chansey + Spiritomb is again weak to Rhyperior, and many other physical attackers are big threats as well simply because they outspeed Spiritomb. Chansey + Mew is again weak to Mismagius, and again Heracross can break through.
Asking for a 2-man core that covers every threat in the metagame is perhaps asking for too much. After all, RegiMilo last gen was a superb defensive core but still left some weaknesses. Still, all these Chansey + X cores are weak to some of the most threatening Pokemon in the metagame. Azelf, Rhyperior, Arcanine, Heracross - these are among the defining forces in the tier. That you can't have a Chansey-core that can stand up to them is just ... disappointing, and the biggest reason why I haven't used Chansey on a balanced / offensive team. I'll give it more thought sometime though, maybe I can come up with something ...
The problem set that I've said ISN'T Spikes.
It's Sub + Twave + Blizzard + Shadow Ball.
Froslass outspeeds most of the meta, Ghost+Ice is pretty good coverage in UU, and both moves are strong.
Then there's the para-miss and sub to break through, and Froslass can easily SWEEP.
Stop argueing about spikes, because, IMo, that's NOT THE PROBLEM.
Oh, and the June stats are outdated by a month and a half. And a ban.
I am usually against banning abilities, but in this case, I have to agree with Flare. If any item/move that increases evasion is banned, then I don't understand why Snow Cloak wouldn't be. Snow Cloak is most prevalent on Froslass, but it's a problem on nearly everything that has it. Yes, pokemon is a game of luck, but that doesn't mean that people should rely on it to win games. Just one unlucky miss usually means the end for a player, and I was under the impression that that was something that we were trying to avoid. I'll go ahead and make a hail team for when the new round starts to see if that changes my mind, but from playing hail a number of times, that's my impression on it.
This, for heaven's sake.
I laddered up to first these past two days (as -cinderella man-), using mostly offense at first, and I can safely say that these mons, though especially Frosslass, actually make offense a risky playstyle. When playing offense, you simply cannot afford to miss a random iron head with Cobalion or something -- it can easily end up gamebreaking in the long (or short) term. I honestly don't want to play a game where I have to deal with that level of random bs occurring.
As FlareBlitz said, it simply should be banned on principle -- it's adding an extra luck related factor to the game that's simply unnecessary and makes the game more the RNG, just as Moody and Brightpowder -- both of which were banned -- did.
edit: also, having played a fair amount of stall, I do feel that Chansey is rather broken. There are only a couple of mons capable of breaking cores such as Chansey/Dusclops, and those mons are all easily handled by other defensive mons that synergize very well with Chansey, and are basically capable of flat out walling the entire metagame.
I get annoyed when Togehax paraflinches me through the match to death, but have we banned her?
Froslass will die if hit once. Togekiss can get hit with her large sp def stat, and roost it off.
This this this.
Togekiss has swept me before, and I missed every single turn from being paralyzed and flinched. Its adding an extra luck related factor to the game that's simply unnecessary and makes the game more the RNG.
Froslass will die if hit once. Togekiss can get hit with her large sp def stat, and roost it off.
You can circumvent Togekiss and Jirachi quite easily. A bulky Pokemon that resist their moves are good counters. Zapdos can pretty much wall Togekiss all day. A fast Pokemon with a SE move can revenge-kill. Substitute blocks status. Once Togekiss is poisoned or paralyzed, it is crippled.
There is a certain degree of control when handling Togekiss and Jirachi. People may occasionally lose to incredible hax, but that could happen with any Pokemon. However, when this incredible hax is as consistent as Froslass, with Snow Cloak + Sub + Paralysis, sense of control is pretty much gone out the window. That's what abusing Evasion does.
I am still uncertain if Froslass really has the supporting characteristics that people mention. Why can't people just bring in a bulky Ice resist, kill Frosslass as it puts up Substitutes and Spike-stacks, and then spin away the Spikes after Froslass is gone? The standard set doesn't have reliable recovery, so Froslass would also wear down fast by SR + Spikes (I didn't include Toxic Spikes, because usually hail teams have a Poison Pokemon).
There is a certain degree of control when handling Togekiss and Jirachi. People may occasionally lose to incredible hax, but that could happen with any Pokemon. However, when this incredible hax is as consistent as Froslass, with Snow Cloak + Sub + Paralysis, sense of control is pretty much gone out the window. That's what abusing Evasion does.
I am still uncertain if Froslass really has the supporting characteristics that people mention. Why can't people just bring in a bulky Ice resist, kill Frosslass as it puts up Substitutes and Spike-stacks, and then spin away the Spikes after Froslass is gone? The standard set doesn't have reliable recovery, so Froslass would also wear down fast by SR + Spikes (I didn't include Toxic Spikes, because usually hail teams have a Poison Pokemon).
You could just as easily put Togekiss/Jirachi in here instead of froslass, and hax instead of evasion and the exact same argument would apply. I'm pretty sure that missing parahax + snow cloak is much less common than missing parahax + flinch from jirachi/togekiss. In fact it is. You are much less common to miss froslass than the flinchhaxers. Paralyze is constant with both, but flinch chance is 60% while snow cloak miss is 20%. And froslass only gets 4 chances at a sub is she isnt holding leftovers, and i'm sure you can argue that focus sash is far superior on her. (at least how I use her)
and at this part;
You can do all of this against Froslass as well. Add on no miss moves and bullet punch (however less common in UU they may be).
A Froslass with Substitute is most definitely holding Leftovers, not Focus Sash. Although, you are right that the chance of either flinching or full paralysis with Togekiss (67%) is much higher than a chance of a Snow Cloak miss or full paralysis (40%), you do have to take into account Substitute fishing for a full paralysis or miss. The chance of opponent either missing with a 100% accurate move or full paralysis in 2 turns is 64% and Froslass can repeat this multiple times, because of leftovers recovery allowing Froslass to make more than 4 Substitutes.
Since Froslass has Substitute, it wont be easy to status it, unlike Togekiss.
Since Froslass has Substitute, it wont be easy to status it, unlike Togekiss.
Personally I think that a Snow Warning + Snow Cloak ban would be very good. Complex bans arent all bad, SwSw + Drizzle in OU was done and is quite beneficial to the metagame. And a froslass out of hail only gets 2 layers of spikes if she has a focus sash, or she hits moderately strong at best. Wouldn't be a problem as much.
The problem with Snow Warning + Snow Cloak ban is that it also limits the usage of other Cloakers, such as Glaceon and Beartic lol.
I mean, if the problem is in principle rather than in individual Pokemon, as Flareblitz is proclaiming, than I definitely prefer Snow Warning + Snow Cloak over a simple Snow Cloak ban, since they only receive the evasion boost under Hail.
Opponents to complex ban who claims that Snow Cloak ban is much simpler and essentially accomplishes the same thing is wrong, because Froslass is still viable with its 115 Speed, Ghost typing, and ability to lay down Spikes + T-Wave, etc. If the opponent were to argue that a complex ban is not worth it to save 3 Snow Cloakers than they have a more valid point.
However, if we don't agree that the problem lies in principle but in 1 individual weather abuser, than I would ban Froslass (if it is indeed broken), and leave Beartic and Glaceon compatible with Snow.
I mean, if the problem is in principle rather than in individual Pokemon, as Flareblitz is proclaiming, than I definitely prefer Snow Warning + Snow Cloak over a simple Snow Cloak ban, since they only receive the evasion boost under Hail.
Opponents to complex ban who claims that Snow Cloak ban is much simpler and essentially accomplishes the same thing is wrong, because Froslass is still viable with its 115 Speed, Ghost typing, and ability to lay down Spikes + T-Wave, etc. If the opponent were to argue that a complex ban is not worth it to save 3 Snow Cloakers than they have a more valid point.
However, if we don't agree that the problem lies in principle but in 1 individual weather abuser, than I would ban Froslass (if it is indeed broken), and leave Beartic and Glaceon compatible with Snow.
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