np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[-Tsunami-]

Roost is definitely legal, as all of Glisor's moves (besides Acrobatics) and it's ability can be gotten from 4th gen. Acrobatics is a TM so it is perfectly fine to run Roost. The reason Substitute is used over Roost (I think anyway) is
1. To set up more easily on pokemon such as Jirachi
2. To block status
3. To abuse Sand Veil

 

[prem]

I'm not seeing a lot of counters for it. We may have to eat our words on the whole "Garchomp but not Sand Veil" ordeal.

scarf cloyster will be back to its former glory of the chomp days. either that or we just ban sand veil for ruining everything

 

[windwolf777]

Even if it can get 2 boosts, dd scrafty needs moxie to be effective otherwise its attack output is pretty underwhelming (bulkier spreads dont help that either) and it becomes easier to play around with foddering, pivots, etc. IMO with scrafty just choose between dd with an all out sweeper spread or specially defensive bulk up.

Actually that isn't true. I have run a non shed rest shed skin scrafty for a while. I easily get to +6 +6 while shrugging off status (33% happens more than you think). Then he's easily able to use drain punch to recover everything. He's even able to beat gliscor while running jolly by running ice punch without any boosts in many cases. Something roobushin (some pokemon I prefer japanese names) can only wish he could do.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Because mixed Mienshao prefers running HP Ice over Aura Sphere to kill Gliscor and Chip Away is horribly outclassed by Return outside of Moody?

Why do you think people don't use these stuff?

 

[November Blue]

Chip Away? Don't you mean Sacred Sword?

Fuck Smogon. When I suggested an offensive Gliscor set (AcroBling) I was laughed out of the forums, but when Eo uses it, it's the next big thing??

It was the same fucking set. Max speed, Acrobatics, Flight Gem...

So, how do you peeps deal with Toxicroak?

Cofagrigus. I've been testing it recently, and it's much better than I thought. I run a 252 HP / 252 +Def Lefties set with Shadow Ball / WoW / Rest / Haze. It's a great candidate for a defensive core; Ferrothorn and Blissey appreciate the Fighting immunity and can support it with pseudopassed Leech Seed and Heal Bell, respectively. It's physical defense is high enough to accommodate Rest, and Shadow Ball off 95 base special attack is decently powerful.

Oh, and Mummy. Dear God.

Speaking of Toxicroak, Cofagrigus is a near perfect counter to the Sub Bulk Up set. It can't Drain Punch you, Shadow Ball breaks it's subs, Mummy overwrites Dry Skin when it uses Sucker Punch, and Haze erases its Bulk Ups. Even if Toxicroak is at +6 / +6 behind a Sub you can just switch in and Haze it.

 

[Vix]

aura sphere IS usable on mienshao!

special Mienshao is just lolz.


While I may agree that PURE special attacking Mienshao is really outclassed; I've found aura sphere to be quite usable in this mix set.

(Mienshao) @ Life Orb Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- U-turn
- Aura Sphere
- Stone Edge\fake out\grass knot
- Hidden Power [Ice]


I've been using this with much success.
No one ever sees it coming so I often kill gliscore, cloyster,landorus,volcarona,and more with ease.

Ugh why wont the quote work

 

[-Tsunami-]

Hmm, that set seems interesting Vix. I'll have to see how well that works sometime. Also, speaking of special attackers, what about a Calm Mind Landorus? It gets Sheer Force, so it could be useful.


Landorus @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpAtk / 252 Speed
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Hidden Power Ice wrecks dragons and Gliscors. Earth Power is STAB and gets powered up by Sheer Force. Sludge Wave is the best usable option Landorus has left. It's 95 base power, but is powered up by Sheer Force. It would be a stronger hit on Grass Type pokemon. Grass Knot could be used over Sludge Wave to beat Gastrodon, but that's about it.

 

[Vix]

Hmm... I have been looking for a good ground type of my team for some time now.
So I think I'll give that landorus set a whirl.

EDIT:Hmm It kinda sucks that it gets no flying moves barring FLY and hp flying though it does get psychic

It also sucks that one can only use it in DW....

 

[Woodchuck]

Chip Away? Don't you mean Sacred Sword?

Fuck Smogon. When I suggested an offensive Gliscor set (AcroBling) I was laughed out of the forums, but when Eo uses it, it's the next big thing??

It was the same fucking set. Max speed, Acrobatics, Flight Gem...

Well, that's because no one would run SubSD Gliscor when you can use Garchomp. Now, it's somewhat viable.

Cofagrigus. I've been testing it recently, and it's much better than I thought. I run a 252 HP / 252 +Def Lefties set with Shadow Ball / WoW / Rest / Haze. It's a great candidate for a defensive core; Ferrothorn and Blissey appreciate the Fighting immunity and can support it with pseudopassed Leech Seed and Heal Bell, respectively. It's physical defense is high enough to accommodate Rest, and Shadow Ball off 95 base special attack is decently powerful.

Oh, and Mummy. Dear God.

Speaking of Toxicroak, Cofagrigus is a near perfect counter to the Sub Bulk Up set. It can't Drain Punch you, Shadow Ball breaks it's subs, Mummy overwrites Dry Skin when it uses Sucker Punch, and Haze erases its Bulk Ups. Even if Toxicroak is at +6 / +6 behind a Sub you can just switch in and Haze it.

Cofagrigus is cool and I've used it occasionally, but it needs Pain Split so bad it's just depressing. Rest is poor recovery when Excadrill or something can come in, SD, and murder you with Earthquake.
It's still pretty good considering we kind of have a vacuum of good spinblockers ever since the Rotoms lost their Ghost typings

special Mienshao is just lolz.

While I may agree that PURE special attacking Mienshao is really outclassed; I've found aura sphere to be quite usable in this mix set.

(Mienshao) @ Life Orb Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- U-turn
- Aura Sphere
- Stone Edge\fake out\grass knot
- Hidden Power [Ice]


I've been using this with much success.
No one ever sees it coming so I often kill gliscore, cloyster,landorus,volcarona,and more with ease.

The thing about Mienshao is that HJK hits for so much massively more damage it's insane. HJK 2hkoes Skarmory. It's putting a dent into shitloads of things that Aura Sphere can't handle. My personal favorite set is HJK / Hp Ice / Grass Knot / U-turn but I think it'll be a lot more effective once I figure out a good EV spread to 2hko Jellicent.

Hmm, that set seems interesting Vix. I'll have to see how well that works sometime. Also, speaking of special attackers, what about a Calm Mind Landorus? It gets Sheer Force, so it could be useful.


Landorus @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpAtk / 252 Speed
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Hidden Power Ice wrecks dragons and Gliscors. Earth Power is STAB and gets powered up by Sheer Force. Sludge Wave is the best usable option Landorus has left. It's 95 base power, but is powered up by Sheer Force. It would be a stronger hit on Grass Type pokemon. Grass Knot could be used over Sludge Wave to beat Gastrodon, but that's about it.

Focus Blast is a way better option than Sludge Wave - it OHKOes Skarmory after a Calm Mind iirc

Wow, fuck this. What a fool I was for thinking that I might get some decent discussion in my timezone for once? Maybe someone could reply to my Cofagrigus post instead of whining about Moody?

Sorry man but seriously I suggest you cool it? There are calmer ways of bringing up topics for discussion. At least blarajan was nice enough to reply :X

Again, Oz, I'd run Psychic instead of Sludge Wave on that landorus. It still gets the Sheer Force boost, and you have HP ice for grass types.

Again, IMHO Focus Blast is better than Psychic, but you do more effectively counter Conkeldurr with Psychic. I think it's poorer coverage otherwise though.

 

[-Tsunami-]

@Woodchuck
I forgot it could learn Focus Blast. That would definitely be better because you can destroy Skarmory and Ferrothorn.

 

[Ewil]

Cofagrigus sounds pretty good now, he have access to a plethora of support moves and can become a solid mixed wall with the support of calm mind, once the most aggro-pokemons are gones, he can stay in and laught on everything bar shuffler.

 

[November Blue]

Rest is actually quite effective. Everyone wants to status cofagrigus, and he couldn't wall some things without it.

What some people (and I'm beginning to) realize is that unless we're banning something via the suspect process, nothing ever changes here.

MM is right; People are scared of change. Why is everyone so deathly afraid of the uber tier? There seem to be these unspoken rules that state that ubers must stay where they are for the safety of the OU metagame, and serious competitive battlers never talk about them. The suspect process goes both ways. We can ban stuff to ubers, but we can also unban stuff from ubers. I'm not making this shit up.

Cofagrigus sounds pretty good now, he have access to a plethora of support moves and can become a solid mixed wall with the support of calm mind, once the most aggro-pokemons are gones, he can stay in and laught on everything bar shuffler.

Cofagrigus is good. His spinblocking, hazing, bulk, WoW and decent offensive power are all really useful. He's overlook because of the lack of a recovery move, but rest is fine on him.

He can also run calm mind. If you're using him as a wall, you can use it like stockpile. Destiny bond, disable, fake tears, power split, trick room... How much does Jellicent really outclass him?

 

[Demoness]

People don't want to drop Ubers down to OU for a good reason: They are broken for the OU metagame. Also, how the hell can you say that nothing ever changes at Smogon when Suspect testing isn't happening? There's always usage shifts, new sets being discovered, underated sets and Pokemon finding usage after being popularized, and more. It's not that were scared of change, but that we want the change to be as beneficial to the metagame as possible.

Hell, I want certain ubers tested in OU, but it's not going to happen because the notion is too outlandish for people to accept. In the past I've had to pull teeth to get people to actually discuss it.

Hey, guess what? This thread is for discussing the metagame, not posting what Ubers you want to drop down to OU just because you want change.

 

[Woodchuck]

Rest is actually quite effective. Everyone wants to status cofagrigus, and he couldn't wall some things without it.

What some people (and I'm beginning to) realize is that unless we're banning something via the suspect process, nothing ever changes here.

MM is right; People are scared of change. Why is everyone so deathly afraid of the uber tier? There seem to be these unspoken rules that state that ubers must stay where they are for the safety of the OU metagame, and serious competitive battlers never talk about them. The suspect process goes both ways. We can ban stuff to ubers, but we can also unban stuff from ubers. I'm not making this shit up.

I don't think that MM's posts should have been deleted. This is the suspect thread, where we discuss tiering and changes to tiering. MM's moody discussion was on topic, and he might not have known why moody is where it is. It irks me that such posts are viewed as useless spam that clogs up the thread.

Hell, I want certain ubers tested in OU, but it's not going to happen because the notion is too outlandish for people to accept. In the past I've had to pull teeth to get people to actually discuss it.

I'd bet my bottom dollar that RBG is going to delete this post because I'm stepping out of line. Disagreeing with everyone else is bad for some reason or something, I don't know. I'd really love it if this post weren't deleted though, I'd like some insight/see what other pople think.

There's nothing wrong with the actual idea of pulling Ubers down to OU but

Disagreeing with everyone else is bad for some reason or something, I don't know.

Lots of people do disagree with you, and that's kind of the reason why it's extremely unlikely for things to pull down.

A few points I want to make:

1. The suspect thread isn't really meant for promoting bans or proposal (as far as I know considering the response to ban discussion in this thread). It's more like a general discussion thread for the metagame just so we can talk about neat things to try or good strategies. So some people may think that arguing for ubers to be pulled down detracts from this discussion.

2. People generally ban stuff because they believe it is broken, correct? If it's been tested and been found to be broken, the logic follows that it will stay more or less broken as the metagame develops. In fact, if we are banning broken pokemon, the overall power of OU will decrease, making any potential Uber drop-down even more unlikely as it will more often than not be more broken than when it was first banned.

Personally, I think OU as it is is balanced, so should I make voting rights I'd be voting no ban.

 

[alphatron]

I must disagree here. SD/Ice Punch/Cross Chop/Sucker Punch@LO is a very effective set-up sweeper.

Been running this guy on my rain team and I'll have to agree with you. I prefer it to the bulk up set, who is horribly walled by volcorona. And more commonly, he's walled by Gliscor if you're carrying drain punch.

As already said, specially defensive Skarmory isn't worth it. It seemed like a neat idea before the best specially defensive steels showed their faces in order to stop Latios, but it will not be there to help you when you see a landorus or an excadrill.

Cofagrigus. I've been testing it recently, and it's much better than I thought. I run a 252 HP / 252 +Def Lefties set with Shadow Ball / WoW / Rest / Haze. It's a great candidate for a defensive core; Ferrothorn and Blissey appreciate the Fighting immunity and can support it with pseudopassed Leech Seed and Heal Bell, respectively. It's physical defense is high enough to accommodate Rest, and Shadow Ball off 95 base special attack is decently powerful.

He desperately needs pain split. In a sandstorm dominated environment, leftovers won't exactly be enough to keep you alive. And he has trouble with some of the top sweepers and taunt+SD Gliscor. He's really bulky and can take hits very well, but I'm not exactly convinced by him stopping things that are already easy to stop, such as Conkeldurr and Toxicroak.

 

[Snkz]

He desperately needs pain split. In a sandstorm dominated environment, leftovers won't exactly be enough to keep you alive. And he has trouble with some of the top sweepers and taunt+SD Gliscor. He's really bulky and can take hits very well, but I'm not exactly convinced by him stopping things that are already easy to stop, such as Conkeldurr and Toxicroak.

Conkeldurr has nothing on Cofag, it can never get more then one bulk up on it due to easily being hazed, and payback does not do a significant amount of damage. Its only method of healing is also locked out thanks to its immunity. Toxicroak subs shut it down hard though

Has anyone been running any successful trick room teams? I've been having a hard time finding a good spinner that isnt entirely dead weight.

 

[-Tsunami-]

@Snkz
The best spinner for Trick Room would probably be Claydol. It can set up Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, and set up Trick Room, making it a perfect candidate for your team. It can also set up Dual Screens if you need that.

 

[Snkz]

Claydol does sound pretty good, It was a bit too fast for me when I first read up on it, but its movepool is perfect for me.

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

On Cofagrigus, he looks very useful in the current metagame, primarily from mummy. Stopping abilities is so useful as so many pokemon rely on their abilities, and he does look like a good physical wall. No recovery sucks thoug.

 

[November Blue]

Claydol's lack of recovery can be patched up by Ferrothorn. Give Claydol Protect and pseudopass Leech Seed to it. Low HP heightens effectiveness.

 

[yaya0]

I've used Claydol since gen 4, and it does very well against most walls.

 

[EpicTurtle]

The problem with Claydol is that in a metagame filled with Water types and heavy hitters, even with Ferrothorn support, all it does it set up SR, Rapid Spin and basically die.

 

[alexwolf]

Been running this guy on my rain team and I'll have to agree with you. I prefer it to the bulk up set, who is horribly walled by volcorona. And more commonly, he's walled by Gliscor if you're carrying drain punch.

He desperately needs pain split. In a sandstorm dominated environment, leftovers won't exactly be enough to keep you alive. And he has trouble with some of the top sweepers and taunt+SD Gliscor. He's really bulky and can take hits very well, but I'm not exactly convinced by him stopping things that are already easy to stop, such as Conkeldurr and Toxicroak.

Depends on which bulk up set you are referring to.
The classic bulk up,sub,sucker punch,drain punch set is walled by volcarona and setup on surely.
But if you are a little bit smarter and instead of sucker punch you put a real attacking move to toxicroak then the scenario changes.
I mean surely sucker punch is a very god priority move but:1.it is not good on a setup sweeper that wants coverage,2.it is not good on a setup sweeper that needs many turns to do it's job 'cause it has very little pp.

So if instead of sucker punch you put poison jab you accomplish the following:
You beat faster ghosts with substitute and slower ghosts with non attacking moves that can outstall you.
You hit many of the fliers and psychics that trouble you for very good damage.
You have a reliable attacking move that doesn't have 8 pps and has greater power than sucker punch.

And the downafalls of using poison jab instead of sucker punch are very few.Let's see them:
You cannot ohko Lati@s at +1.
You lose the priority of sucker punch.
Gliscor beats you but he is beating you with sucker punch also so no difference here.
Lati@s get hit by poison jab for good damage so again it is not like they wall you(assuming you sub up in the switch in which is almost always the right thing to do).
The only real disadvantage is that you lose the nice priority when you sometimes need it for faster foes.
Also with paralyze support Toxicroak in the rain can beat many of its usual counters like Jirachi,Reuniclus,Lati@s,Celebi and many more(with Poison Jab of 'course).

Finally Bulk Up Toxicroak with Poison Jab under rain,and with paralyze support if possible,is almost unstoppable.The only 3 surefire counters are Skarmory,Gliscor and Hippowdon.
So no Toxicroak is not as easy to wall or kill as you think...

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

I mean surely sucker punch is a very god priority move but:1.it is not good on a setup sweeper that wants coverage,2.it is not good on a setup sweeper that needs many turns to do it's job 'cause it has very little pp.

This is very true. I've always been able to outstall the common bulk up/drain punch/sub/sucker punch toxicroak set with my Froslass because it's painfully obvious what it will do to play around, and after it uses up those 8 hits, it can't do anything. I think you're very smart in replacing sucker punch with something else, it would allow toxicroak to do many more things.

 

[Pocket]

That Sand Veil+Acrobat set for Gliscor looks cool. Like all Acrobat users, it is annoying that only dispensable items can be held, but the power boost is very impressive. Couple this with Magnezone and it can pack a lot of hurt. However, it's rather mediocre Speed makes it prone to revenge-killing, and lack of Leftovers limiting Gliscor to 4 Substitutes doesn't help either.