That's why it's better used in a Sun team (not necessarily a "hurr run Ninetales and five Fire-type pokémon", but "hey look my team likes the Water resistance").
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
- Start date
- Status
tehy
Banned deucer.
I've fought that set of gliscor before, but i assumed it was my enemy being a moron, not a legitimate smogon set.
Seriously, skarmory switches in and lols, as does zapdos. Most gliscors can manage to beat at least ONE of my counters to them, but yours does a fantastic job countering neither. And also being a gliscor that can't heal is sort of problematic.
Seriously, skarmory switches in and lols, as does zapdos. Most gliscors can manage to beat at least ONE of my counters to them, but yours does a fantastic job countering neither. And also being a gliscor that can't heal is sort of problematic.
Okay, alexwolf, there's a lot of stuff you're leaving out here. Salamence pretty much hard counters Toxicroak with Poison Jab, so you missed that, for one. Poison Jab is, in general, an awful attack thanks to Base Power that is average at best and the Poison-type's terrible coverage as an offensive type. Just because Toxicroak gets STAB on it doesn't make it any less worthless. You don't even beat most of your counters with Poison Jab: it can't touch Jirachi, Reuniclus isn't even 2HKO'd by a +1 Poison Jab, assuming Toxicroak has an Adamant nature and holds Leftovers (running Life Orb on a bulky booster is just stupid), you beat Celebi with Sucker Punch anyway, and Latios and Latias can just break your Substitute, force you out, and Recover off the damage unless the opponent is running Choice Specs or something, which is flat out worse than Life Orb + 3 Attacks on Latios and should never be used with Latias. To be fair, whether or not you beat Reuniclus with Sucker Punch really comes down to whether or not you predict correctly, but at least you have a chance and don't flat-out lose.
Sucker Punch also provides very good coverage, whereas Poison Jab provides almost none, so your argument that Toxicroak needs coverage and therefore should run Poison Jab over Sucker Punch is so deeply flawed that it should be discarded completely. A secondary STAB move is not the same thing as a coverage move and is not guaranteed to provide any useful coverage.
All of the points you make about needing a move with plenty of PP seem to ignore the existence of Drain Punch.
The Ghost-type resists Poison-type attacks, so you aren't beating the Ghost-types that you could with Sucker Punch. The two most common Ghost-types in the OU tier (Jellicent and Gengar) are not beaten by Poison Jab any more handily than they would be by Sucker Punch, and in Gengar's case you actually do worse against it. Jellicent can't hurt you anyway assuming you're behind a Substitute thanks to Dry Skin, so you win anyway, and Gengar has a 4x resistance to Poison Jab so it doesn't care. With Poison Jab, Gengar can comfortably use Substitute and proceed to wreak havoc while you can't even break its Substitutes with a +0 Poison Jab. Sucker Punch doesn't guarantee you'll beat Gengar either, since it basically comes down to prediction, but it actually gives you a chance.
Toxicroak badly needs the priority since its bulk is practically nonexistent without multiple boosts, so you're downplaying the loss of Sucker Punch's priority far more than you should be, especially with such a mediocre replacement.
If you really want to give Toxicroak a coverage move instead of Sucker Punch, go with Ice Punch rather than Poison Jab. It lets you beat Gliscor, dent Latios and Latias, does almost as much damage to Celebi as Sucker Punch, and lets you hit the Flying-type Pokemon that resist your Fighting-type STAB attack. You lose to Psychic-types without Sucker Punch regardless of what you run in its place.
Any sweeper worth using can beat its faster checks and counters with paralysis support, so I don't know why you bring up Toxicroak's ability to do that like it makes Toxicroak special in any way.
Anyway, I've finally found a cool set to post: Life Orb Sceptile. It sounds odd, but Sceptile's amazing Speed and decent Special Attack allow it to cause a lot of damage, although it desperately needs Stealth Rock support and really benefits from Spikes as well. Here's the set:
Sceptile (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Overgrow
EVs: 252 SAtk / 28 SDef / 228 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Leaf Storm
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rock Slide
Leaf Storm is a powerful STAB move, although its coverage isn't exactly the best. Focus Blast is important for beating Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, and Scizor. Hidden Power Ice lets it revenge kill stuff like Tornadus, Thundurus, and Latios, and is a nice way to hit anything 4x weak to Ice-type attacks without wasting Leaf Storm. Rock Slide is pretty much filler, but it's useful because Volcarona like to come in on Leaf Storm and try to set up. Sceptile actually has some other pretty good attacking options, like Earthquake, Hidden Power Fire, Brick Break/Drain Punch, X-Scissor, and Crunch. Sceptile's Attack stat is pretty low, though, so the physical moves need pretty significant EV investment to be worth using. The Speed EVs are just enough to beat something or other, probably Politoed or Tyranitar, holding a Choice Scarf, although I don't remember exactly what. The 252 Special Attack EVs ensure that you hit as hard as possible, while the leftover EVs can go just about anywhere. I just put them in Special Defense to help take on rain teams.
Sucker Punch also provides very good coverage, whereas Poison Jab provides almost none, so your argument that Toxicroak needs coverage and therefore should run Poison Jab over Sucker Punch is so deeply flawed that it should be discarded completely. A secondary STAB move is not the same thing as a coverage move and is not guaranteed to provide any useful coverage.
All of the points you make about needing a move with plenty of PP seem to ignore the existence of Drain Punch.
The Ghost-type resists Poison-type attacks, so you aren't beating the Ghost-types that you could with Sucker Punch. The two most common Ghost-types in the OU tier (Jellicent and Gengar) are not beaten by Poison Jab any more handily than they would be by Sucker Punch, and in Gengar's case you actually do worse against it. Jellicent can't hurt you anyway assuming you're behind a Substitute thanks to Dry Skin, so you win anyway, and Gengar has a 4x resistance to Poison Jab so it doesn't care. With Poison Jab, Gengar can comfortably use Substitute and proceed to wreak havoc while you can't even break its Substitutes with a +0 Poison Jab. Sucker Punch doesn't guarantee you'll beat Gengar either, since it basically comes down to prediction, but it actually gives you a chance.
Toxicroak badly needs the priority since its bulk is practically nonexistent without multiple boosts, so you're downplaying the loss of Sucker Punch's priority far more than you should be, especially with such a mediocre replacement.
If you really want to give Toxicroak a coverage move instead of Sucker Punch, go with Ice Punch rather than Poison Jab. It lets you beat Gliscor, dent Latios and Latias, does almost as much damage to Celebi as Sucker Punch, and lets you hit the Flying-type Pokemon that resist your Fighting-type STAB attack. You lose to Psychic-types without Sucker Punch regardless of what you run in its place.
Any sweeper worth using can beat its faster checks and counters with paralysis support, so I don't know why you bring up Toxicroak's ability to do that like it makes Toxicroak special in any way.
Anyway, I've finally found a cool set to post: Life Orb Sceptile. It sounds odd, but Sceptile's amazing Speed and decent Special Attack allow it to cause a lot of damage, although it desperately needs Stealth Rock support and really benefits from Spikes as well. Here's the set:
Sceptile (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Overgrow
EVs: 252 SAtk / 28 SDef / 228 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Leaf Storm
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rock Slide
Leaf Storm is a powerful STAB move, although its coverage isn't exactly the best. Focus Blast is important for beating Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, and Scizor. Hidden Power Ice lets it revenge kill stuff like Tornadus, Thundurus, and Latios, and is a nice way to hit anything 4x weak to Ice-type attacks without wasting Leaf Storm. Rock Slide is pretty much filler, but it's useful because Volcarona like to come in on Leaf Storm and try to set up. Sceptile actually has some other pretty good attacking options, like Earthquake, Hidden Power Fire, Brick Break/Drain Punch, X-Scissor, and Crunch. Sceptile's Attack stat is pretty low, though, so the physical moves need pretty significant EV investment to be worth using. The Speed EVs are just enough to beat something or other, probably Politoed or Tyranitar, holding a Choice Scarf, although I don't remember exactly what. The 252 Special Attack EVs ensure that you hit as hard as possible, while the leftover EVs can go just about anywhere. I just put them in Special Defense to help take on rain teams.
That sceptile set looks like mainly a counter to weather starters, but its nice to see people making starter mons viable :D
His dream world ability is definately better. It's something to watch out for, I didn't expect it and got my team raped over by that thing one time.
His dream world ability is definately better. It's something to watch out for, I didn't expect it and got my team raped over by that thing one time.
tehy
Banned deucer.
Actually, night shade jellicent can break toxicroak's subs, and then will-o-wisp it.
And why the special defense evs? It's not like you don't need speed or physical attack power.
Awesome Sceptile set, Davy Jones. Would Leech Seed possibly work on the filler slot? With Focus Blast and Hidden Power, it pretty much dissuades any Grass Types from switching in, making Leech Seed a good way to deal with things that manages to switch in and wall Sceptile. Prevents the opponent from stalling Sceptile and rack up needless LO damage. Reunicles can also switch into Leech Seed, but is 2HKOed if Sceptile Leaf Storms on the switch. Tentacruel fares better, but cannot switch into Sceptile the second time.
Since that last slot's basically filler, you can try pretty much whatever you want. Leech Seed is perfectly fine, since it helps you recover from Life Orb damage, especially since in a metagame centered around bulk and Excadrill's insane speed, so many things invest heavily in HP, so depending on what switches into you (Blissey, for example), you can even offset the damage from switching into Stealth Rock and/or Spikes or the damage you take from the nearly omnipresent sandstorm.
tehy, Night Shade Jellicent does beat Toxicroak, but I think you're the only person I've ever seen use it. Standard Jellicent loses since it just runs Scald or Surf as a STAB move and therefore can't touch Toxicroak behind a Substitute.
The Special Defense EVs don't really do much, but adding them to Attack doesn't do much since Rock Slide is mostly for Volcarona and Sceptile will KO with Rock Slide regardless. You could put them in Speed to tie with Dugtrio, but Dugtrio isn't really something that Sceptile generally worries about. All you really need is enough Speed to outrun Choice Scarf Tyranitar.
I'm considering splitting EVs and trying out Drain Punch, but it doesn't look promising since it doesn't even OHKO 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar even with Stealth Rock. Drain Punch does give Sceptile a chance to 2HKO Blissey, but you need Stealth Rock to have that chance. Running less than 252 Attack EVs also leaves your physical attacks too weak to be worth using, so you need to sacrifice either Speed or Special Attack for mixed Sceptile to work. I guess you could use it as a lure to get rid of Blissey and Tyranitar so that something like Latios or Raikou can sweep or blast holes in opposing teams. You could also use Low Kick to get the definite OHKO on Tyranitar, but then you can't do anything to Blissey without Stealth Rock and three levels of Spikes.
tehy, Night Shade Jellicent does beat Toxicroak, but I think you're the only person I've ever seen use it. Standard Jellicent loses since it just runs Scald or Surf as a STAB move and therefore can't touch Toxicroak behind a Substitute.
The Special Defense EVs don't really do much, but adding them to Attack doesn't do much since Rock Slide is mostly for Volcarona and Sceptile will KO with Rock Slide regardless. You could put them in Speed to tie with Dugtrio, but Dugtrio isn't really something that Sceptile generally worries about. All you really need is enough Speed to outrun Choice Scarf Tyranitar.
I'm considering splitting EVs and trying out Drain Punch, but it doesn't look promising since it doesn't even OHKO 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar even with Stealth Rock. Drain Punch does give Sceptile a chance to 2HKO Blissey, but you need Stealth Rock to have that chance. Running less than 252 Attack EVs also leaves your physical attacks too weak to be worth using, so you need to sacrifice either Speed or Special Attack for mixed Sceptile to work. I guess you could use it as a lure to get rid of Blissey and Tyranitar so that something like Latios or Raikou can sweep or blast holes in opposing teams. You could also use Low Kick to get the definite OHKO on Tyranitar, but then you can't do anything to Blissey without Stealth Rock and three levels of Spikes.
tehy
Banned deucer.
True enough about the rock slide thing davy, but with some investment maybe you could counter something else better? Like maybe darminitan or something
And surf is crap on jellicent, low base power means the onnly stuff you're doing more to will switch out anyways. I prefer to burn most of those too.
And surf is crap on jellicent, low base power means the onnly stuff you're doing more to will switch out anyways. I prefer to burn most of those too.
Losing out so much in Special Attack to bypass Blissey seems slightly counterproductive, although it does have its merit. You can try Focus Punch. Although you would need to change Sceptile's nature to Hasty, it will 2HKO Blissey with a Focus Punch - Leaf Storm with very little investment in Atk.
If you're going to use Rock Slide for more than just Volcarona, you may as well invest 252 EVs into attack so that you can actually do some damage. With the right investment, you can always OHKO 4 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan after Stealth Rock (216 EVs), but if you're going the physical route I can't stretch enough how much Sceptile needs entry hazard support. No matter how much investment you choose, you aren't guaranteed to beat OHKO Thundurus and Tornadus after Stealth Rock, but you can get 2HKOs on stuff like Ninetales.
Yeah, losing the Special Attack is somewhat counterproductive, but that's why I suggested pairing it with something that really wants Blissey out of the way. Focus Punch works too, I just like the somewhat reliable recovery that Drain Punch provides, especially with Blissey's massive Base HP, which is usually fully invested.
If you're splitting EVs to any significant degree in order to take out more than one or two Pokemon you should definitely switch to Hasty like Pocket said, since Sceptile will be dying to physical attacks anyway. On that note, since Sceptile hates Scizor and Skarmory (relying on Focus Blast to beat anything, especially when it's a 2HKO instead of an OHKO, generally leads to frustration), Magnezone makes a good partner since Magnezone can trap the Steel-types that give Sceptile trouble and they even have somewhat decent typing synergy.
Yeah, losing the Special Attack is somewhat counterproductive, but that's why I suggested pairing it with something that really wants Blissey out of the way. Focus Punch works too, I just like the somewhat reliable recovery that Drain Punch provides, especially with Blissey's massive Base HP, which is usually fully invested.
If you're splitting EVs to any significant degree in order to take out more than one or two Pokemon you should definitely switch to Hasty like Pocket said, since Sceptile will be dying to physical attacks anyway. On that note, since Sceptile hates Scizor and Skarmory (relying on Focus Blast to beat anything, especially when it's a 2HKO instead of an OHKO, generally leads to frustration), Magnezone makes a good partner since Magnezone can trap the Steel-types that give Sceptile trouble and they even have somewhat decent typing synergy.
It doesn't counter at all.Assuming you sub on the turn that Salamence comes in,next turn you can land a free hit that does more than 50% to non bulky variants.Now if you had Sucker Punch Salamence could just outstall you with DD and eventually kill you and your whole team!
I agree with you and i never said that Toxicroak should run it just 'cause he gets stab.
Ok let's see these examples:
-Jirachi:sucker punch and poison jab are completely irrelevant as the move that you will be using to take jirachi down is drain punch.If you are lucky enough and manage to get enough def boosts before jirachi flinches you to death then you win.Otherwise he wins.
-Reuniclus:why do you even mention Reuniclus?First of all i clearly stated that Toxicroak can easily beat reuniclus if paralyze support is given,not alone.And at least with poison jab reuniclus can actually deal some damage to reuniclus instead of being setup fodder,which happens when you have sucker punch.
-Celebi:It can outstall you easily and setup on you while you try to hit him with sucker punch,while taking drain punches like nothing.But with poison jab...I think you know what happens.
-Lati@s:Let's examine first the choiced sets.The choiced sets get ohkoed easily by sucker punch assuming you used bulk up as they switched in.But with poison jab you only manage to do around 60% iirc(which is not bad at all) assuming you used sub as they switched into you.So in this situation sucker punch is better but it's not like that with PJ you do nothing.
Now lets see the other sets.
A common set for latios is 3 attacks with life orb + recover.And these 3 attacks usually are draco meteor,hp fire and surf.If you have sucker punch it goes to a mind game where your opponent must make you waste 8 pps by recovering.Not so hard to do when he has a non attacking move with double the pps right?
But with PJ(assuming you used sub in the switch in which is the only good move to use in a forced switch when you have PJ on toxicroak)it goes like this.Latios has only 1 move that can kill you and that can only be done at +0.So in the first turn you use PJ while he breaks the sub with DM and in the next turn you kill him back living the -2 DM.Or you can just spam sub 'till Latios is at -6 so you get out almost unscathed.
Finally if the Latios user has DP instead of DM,then Toxicroak can again 2hko while Latios cannot ohko back(359 Atk vs 165 Def & 370 HP (90 Base Power): 273 - 322 (73.78% - 87.03%)).
Finaly about Latias many scenarios can happenSince she always carries non attacking moves sucker punch is again a bad option as recover has twice the pps so she can easily stall you out.
But with PJ you do very better against her since she is very less pwerfull than her brother which means that she cannot kill you as easily while you can do significant damage back!I do not know which one wil come out on top but the result is surely better than the result that you would have with sucker punch.
Sucker Punch cannot be regarded as coverage when any poke with a non fully attacking set can shut this move down.PJ in the other hand surely gives GUARANTEED super effective coverage on grass types and normal coverage in all the flying and psychic(and bug also) mons that resist fighting.And as i told you again i am not chosing PJ only 'cause it gets stab but 'cause it is the best coverage move that Toxicroak has right now.If Toxicroak could run Ice Punch instead of PJ along with drain punch then you could bet your house that i would chose ice punch.
Not at all.You just don't understand my point.Poison jab's many pps are needed for the types that fighting can do shit such as flying ghost and psychic.F.e. it is very funny to realize that although you completely wall and can use as a setup fodder Jellicent,you must not 'cause you can do shit to her while she outstalls you.With poison jab she is the ultimate setup fodder that anyone wants.Same goes for reuniclus.It is so nice to use reuniclus as setup fodder,when he is paralyzed of course.You just spam sub till he gets fully paralyzed and then you simply setup and eventually kill him with PJ.The same goes for so many pokes.
Jellicent is the ultimate setup fodder and gets murdered from PJ at +6.Without this move she can easily outstall your pps with her moves.
Any gengar except scarfed and specs ones,which are rare from my own experience,carries non attacking moves the most common being the deadly sub.So with SP you are just giving gengar a free turn,while with PJ you do:344 Atk vs 156 Def & 261 HP (80 Base Power): 61 - 73 (23.37% - 27.97%).This is almost a 50% chance to break the sub.A little bit better than becoming setup fodder right?
So we are done with the ghosts that you mentioned right?
I just showed you how Toxicroak doesn't need so badly priority.Also 370 life and 247 defense with one bulk up is not nonexistent to me.
I told you that i would if i could but i can't because this 2 moves are illegal together.And also i proved you how you don't lose to psychic types without sucker punch,exactly the opossite,you lose to psychic types IF you have sucker punch.
Ok now you are just starting to make up things from your mind without any backing up just for the sake of arguing.First of all Toxicroak doesn't beat only some of it's faster CHEKCS with paralyze support it also beats some of it's COUNTERS with it faster or not,like Jirachi and Reuniclus.And i bring up the issue of paralyze 'cause you know Toxicroak is the only ou poke that heals 18,5 of it's life per turn with leftovers.And this enables him to create subs almost infinitely.
So now can you pls tell me how can a paralyzed hipowdon lose to exca?Of course it can lose but only 30% of the times 'cause he cannot abuse subs.No poke can abuse the parahax with subs like Toxicroak for the reason i mentioned!
Pls before speaking give a try to PJ an then come back to tell me your thoughts.Let's not just talk because sometimes theorymoning means shit.I have tried this set and i can assure you that it works.I am not telling it's the best option for everybody,but it is surely the best for me.And for many others i hope...
But pls give an actual try to this move before speaking.
Lol...um...dude...the thing with Sucker Punch is that...it's impossible to theorymon. At +6, Drain Punch will still hurt a lot of psychics such as Celebi/Latias who are trying to stall out Sucker Punch. It's all about the mind games. You can't claim that you'll lose with or without Sucker Punch. It depends who guesses what the other uses. Let's say I'm only at +2 and you send in Celebi. I might just SD again while you try to predict SU and now I'm at +4. Or, you HPFired me for over half when I tried to get +4. Now it's all mind games. If you attack again, I might start Sucker Punch spamming. But after you Recover/NP 3 times as I wasted Sucker Punch, I might just feel like taking a huge chunk of you with an unresisted SUPER boosted fighting move anyways. But if you happen to attack when I finally attack, then Celebi wins.
So stop being arrogant when you're absolutely wrong. It's an embarrassment.
Way to post a lot of useless words like "you lose if you use suckerpunch"
So stop being arrogant when you're absolutely wrong. It's an embarrassment.
Way to post a lot of useless words like "you lose if you use suckerpunch"
Please do not incite a flame war. What alexwolf posted was not "absolutely wrong." There is a legitimate reason why alexwolf opted for Poison Jab - because it offers consistency without much drawback. Sucker Punch is a high-risk, high-reward, and it can really screw Toxicroak, who can't really hit hard with a Drain Punch. I don't know why you're using a +6 Drain Punch in your argument, because that seems unlikely to happen. alexwolf actually weighed the pros and cons of Poison Jab and demonstrated how Poison Jab is more-or-less a good alternative to Sucker Punch for those desiring consistent performance.
I have to agree with Davy Jones that alexwolf may have downplayed the usefulness of priority in Sucker Punch, but otherwise he made a good case for Poison Jab.
I have to agree with Davy Jones that alexwolf may have downplayed the usefulness of priority in Sucker Punch, but otherwise he made a good case for Poison Jab.
Drain Punch is illegal with Ice Punch; that part was my mistake and I apologize.
Salamence does hard counter Bulk Up Toxicroak. Apparently in your little fantasy world either Intimidate and Roost don't exist or there's some rule that allows Toxicroak to use Substitute and Bulk Up on the same turn. It either gets -1 Attack and a Substitute or a +0 Attack and +1 Defense without a Substitute, and either way it still loses.
I'll give you Celebi, to an extent. It's still not a certain win, though. If Celebi's running Psychic, which is a good option for Celebi thanks to all of the Fighting-type Pokemon in OU, you lose regardless of your coverage move as long as Celebi runs 252 HP EVs, which it has no excuse for not doing in this metagame.
You will never break Gengar's Substitutes. A +0 Poison Jab does 17.9% - 21% to 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar. Take the Life Orb off and try again. Bulk Up Toxicroak should never run Life Orb.
I just showed you how Toxicroak doesn't need so badly priority.Also 370 life and 247 defense with one bulk up is not nonexistent to me.
Stop assuming you always have one or more Bulk Up boosts. Toxicroak’s 83 Base HP and 65 Base Defense are terrible.
It seems like you just make stuff up as you go along and don't even bother to check your facts. You don't really threaten any of the five most common Flying-types in the tier with Poison Jab as opposed to any other option. Gliscor resists it, Dragonite is bulky enough that it doesn't care one bit about anything you do and just KOs you with Extremespeed, Earthquake, or Dragon Claw, depending on the variant, Skarmory is immune to Poison Jab and hard counters you regardless of what coverage move you use, Gyarados has Intimidate to soften the blow, and Landorus resists it. Dragonite and Gyarados are the only Pokemon out of those five that you can make a case for threatening with Poison Jab. Of the top seven Psychic-types in OU, Poison Jab lets you cleanly beat only one of them. You can beat Latios, but it isn't guaranteed. You flat-out lose to Reuniclus and Jirachi unless you introduce luck into the game, which isn't a reliable answer because otherwise it wouldn't be luck. You do cleanly beat Starmie if it isn't running a Psychic-type attack, which most don't, so I'll give you that one. Espeon wins, but takes a hit doing it. Latias beats you unless you get Poison hax, and sometimes even then. Celebi, as already discussed, beats you cleanly if it runs Psychic. Congratulations, you've managed to beat maybe two or three Pokemon out if you've somehow managed to get both a Substitute and a Bulk Up boost in the single turn it takes to switch in.
Poison Jab is not the best coverage move it can run. If you don't want to use Sucker Punch, Payback and Rock Slide/Stone Edge are options that provide much better coverage than Poison Jab.
Again, with paralysis support, any sweeper can beat counters and checks, without even needing paralysis hax in many cases. What part of this don’t you get?
EDIT: dori is a ninja. He's right in that it's all about mind games, which is why I've been stressing that you have to predict well when using Sucker Punch. This goes for any Pokemon that uses Sucker Punch.
Pocket, normally I agree with what you post, but I don't in this case. Poison Jab certainly offers consistency, but I'd prefer high-risk, high-reward moves over consistently being bad. Consistency is only desirable if something is consistently good. Poison Jab is exactly the opposite.
He did not demonstrate that Poison Jab was a good alternative to Sucker Punch, especially when I've provided several options that are more consistent than Sucker Punch. If you'd like, I can explain the benefits to each of the moves I recommended. Also, he did weigh the pros and cons, but most of the pros are things he completely made up and the cons far outweigh the few actual benefits to using Poison Jab.
Salamence does hard counter Bulk Up Toxicroak. Apparently in your little fantasy world either Intimidate and Roost don't exist or there's some rule that allows Toxicroak to use Substitute and Bulk Up on the same turn. It either gets -1 Attack and a Substitute or a +0 Attack and +1 Defense without a Substitute, and either way it still loses.
Choiced Latios is bad, but it does beat you without Sucker Punch. With Poison Jab you are still forced out and Latios or Latias can Recover afterwards anyway.
I mention it because you mentioned it as something you beat with Poison Jab. If you don't want me to respond to a point you try to make then don't try to make it. Even with Paralysis support you're still relying on luck to win.
I'll give you Celebi, to an extent. It's still not a certain win, though. If Celebi's running Psychic, which is a good option for Celebi thanks to all of the Fighting-type Pokemon in OU, you lose regardless of your coverage move as long as Celebi runs 252 HP EVs, which it has no excuse for not doing in this metagame.
Sure, you beat Jellicent eventually, but you do that with any other coverage move as well.
You will never break Gengar's Substitutes. A +0 Poison Jab does 17.9% - 21% to 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar. Take the Life Orb off and try again. Bulk Up Toxicroak should never run Life Orb.
I just showed you how Toxicroak doesn't need so badly priority.Also 370 life and 247 defense with one bulk up is not nonexistent to me.
Stop assuming you always have one or more Bulk Up boosts. Toxicroak’s 83 Base HP and 65 Base Defense are terrible.
The way you word this makes it sound like you're saying that you need Poison Jab to beat everything on this list, so that should tell you why I mention them.
Sucker Punch can be regarded as coverage since it hits almost every Pokemon that resists Toxicroak's Fighting-type STAB moves at least neutrally. It just takes prediction to use properly.
It seems like you just make stuff up as you go along and don't even bother to check your facts. You don't really threaten any of the five most common Flying-types in the tier with Poison Jab as opposed to any other option. Gliscor resists it, Dragonite is bulky enough that it doesn't care one bit about anything you do and just KOs you with Extremespeed, Earthquake, or Dragon Claw, depending on the variant, Skarmory is immune to Poison Jab and hard counters you regardless of what coverage move you use, Gyarados has Intimidate to soften the blow, and Landorus resists it. Dragonite and Gyarados are the only Pokemon out of those five that you can make a case for threatening with Poison Jab. Of the top seven Psychic-types in OU, Poison Jab lets you cleanly beat only one of them. You can beat Latios, but it isn't guaranteed. You flat-out lose to Reuniclus and Jirachi unless you introduce luck into the game, which isn't a reliable answer because otherwise it wouldn't be luck. You do cleanly beat Starmie if it isn't running a Psychic-type attack, which most don't, so I'll give you that one. Espeon wins, but takes a hit doing it. Latias beats you unless you get Poison hax, and sometimes even then. Celebi, as already discussed, beats you cleanly if it runs Psychic. Congratulations, you've managed to beat maybe two or three Pokemon out if you've somehow managed to get both a Substitute and a Bulk Up boost in the single turn it takes to switch in.
Poison Jab is not the best coverage move it can run. If you don't want to use Sucker Punch, Payback and Rock Slide/Stone Edge are options that provide much better coverage than Poison Jab.
Wow, you accuse me of making stuff up when nearly everything you’ve said was either pulled out of absolutely nowhere, easily proven wrong, or both? That’s audacious, but also incredibly pathetic and easy to see through.
Again, with paralysis support, any sweeper can beat counters and checks, without even needing paralysis hax in many cases. What part of this don’t you get?
I see no reason to waste a moveslot for a mediocre move on a Pokemon that is useless enough without the player using it deliberately trying to make it worse. I’ve already outlined far superior coverage options if you hate Sucker Punch that much. Come back and argue after you learn how to run damage calculations without messing them up and get your head out of whatever fantasy world you live in where Toxicroak can perform two or three moves in one turn.
EDIT: dori is a ninja. He's right in that it's all about mind games, which is why I've been stressing that you have to predict well when using Sucker Punch. This goes for any Pokemon that uses Sucker Punch.
Pocket, normally I agree with what you post, but I don't in this case. Poison Jab certainly offers consistency, but I'd prefer high-risk, high-reward moves over consistently being bad. Consistency is only desirable if something is consistently good. Poison Jab is exactly the opposite.
He did not demonstrate that Poison Jab was a good alternative to Sucker Punch, especially when I've provided several options that are more consistent than Sucker Punch. If you'd like, I can explain the benefits to each of the moves I recommended. Also, he did weigh the pros and cons, but most of the pros are things he completely made up and the cons far outweigh the few actual benefits to using Poison Jab.
Anything he says about usefulness of Poison Jab is absolutely disregarded due to his ignorance and belief that Sucker Punch will always be used 8 times consecutively.
With comments such as
"And also i proved you how you don't lose to psychic types without sucker punch,exactly the opossite,you lose to psychic types IF you have sucker punch."
just shows that you shouldn't listen to people who play sub 1000 rating opponents. You, Pocket, also fail to completely read anything anyone else says as well seeing as my last post described the practical battling usage of Sucker Punch and did not anywhere refute Poison Jab's usefulness. (However I will dispute his given set is rather painfully mediocre.) How can you trust someone's account of how good something is when it clearly shows an inability to play?
jrp
Banned deucer.
Poison Jab gets shit coverage. Expecially with Fighting. Sucker Punch has been a fucking lifesaver in plenty of situations for me.
Poison Jab's resistances/immunities that are relevent (take neutral/SE damage from Drain Punch) and are seen in OU are usually Ghost types.
Gengar, Jellicent and the like. With Poison Jab, you instantly lose. Sucker punch gives you a chance to beat them.
Also, Toxicroak can easily beat Reuniclus? I'm calling your bullshit. You say that with paralisis support it can "easily" win, but you seem to be ignoring Trick Room Reuniclus.
Guys could we stop arguing about Poison Jab Toxicroak and use this thread for something productive please?
I'll start by hyping Tornadus on rain teams. Man oh man is thing brutal for the usual anti-rain measures if you can keep their rocks off and yours up. Celebi, Virizion, Ferrothorn, Jellicent, none of these like switching into a Specs Hurricane, so with smart switching you can wear them down pretty quickly. Also, priority Rain Dance is really cool for retaking a game's momentum. I prefer Specs > LO for the raw power, but mixed Tornadus works very well too.
Oh and one set I've been meaning to try out on a rain team is offensive Vaporeon.
Vaporeon @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Hydration
Modest 4/0/0/252/0/252
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Ice Beam
- HP Grass / HP Electric
- Rest
Ridiculous damage output with instant full recovery and status immunity? Yes please! Hydro Pump hits like a ton of bricks under rain. Life Orb OHKOes Reuniclus, Specs can 2HKO Blissey after Stealth Rock... you get the idea.
I'll start by hyping Tornadus on rain teams. Man oh man is thing brutal for the usual anti-rain measures if you can keep their rocks off and yours up. Celebi, Virizion, Ferrothorn, Jellicent, none of these like switching into a Specs Hurricane, so with smart switching you can wear them down pretty quickly. Also, priority Rain Dance is really cool for retaking a game's momentum. I prefer Specs > LO for the raw power, but mixed Tornadus works very well too.
Oh and one set I've been meaning to try out on a rain team is offensive Vaporeon.
Vaporeon @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Hydration
Modest 4/0/0/252/0/252
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Ice Beam
- HP Grass / HP Electric
- Rest
Ridiculous damage output with instant full recovery and status immunity? Yes please! Hydro Pump hits like a ton of bricks under rain. Life Orb OHKOes Reuniclus, Specs can 2HKO Blissey after Stealth Rock... you get the idea.
Nah, you have clearly proven your points with your posts. I didn't bother to really look up into Toxicroak's options or double-check any calculations, so Poison Jab seemed like a good alternative to overcome some of Sucker Punch's shortcomings.Davy Jones said:
You are right that Poison Jab may be consistent, but not in a good way. Sucker Punch at least provides a chance to dispatch things that Toxicroak without priority cannot. Substitute also aids in landing a successful Sucker Punch to an extent.
Overall, I can see how Bulk Up Toxicroak could be pretty mediocre and why Swords Dance LO variation has gained some popularity, although it, too, still carry similar limitations due to it still being a Toxicroak.
Sorry, dori, for accusing you. It's just that your reaction seemed overly hostile in response to alexwolf, who seemed to have a valid argument.
EDIT: That's one sick Vaporeon. Not fearing random Scald burns, Toxic Poison, and paralysis from Jirachi / Blissey will make Vaporeon really tough to take down. I thought Fake Tears would be a great option over Hidden Power on a LO set to halve Special Wall's defense for a solid wall breaker, but a loss in coverage could be annoying when facing the likes of Water Absorb Jellicent.
I hate Tornadus so much. It's so annoying to kill that thing, especially with Hurricane's confusion chance. Priority Rain Dance can really win you the game, especially when both weather abusers are gone.
Also, that Vaporeon set seems interesting Tobes. I hate hydration + Rest as it is, and add in some good bulk + insane power and it seems like you could do some major damage. I'll have to try that out sometime.
Also, has anyone ever used a Bulk Up Tornadus? That thing can be seriously useful, as Flight Gem Acrobatics is nothing to laugh at, especially coming off a base 115 attack stat. I know Agamemnom made an RMT with that poke, and it seemed pretty effective. It can take out common switch ins such as Blissey with ease.
Also, that Vaporeon set seems interesting Tobes. I hate hydration + Rest as it is, and add in some good bulk + insane power and it seems like you could do some major damage. I'll have to try that out sometime.
Also, has anyone ever used a Bulk Up Tornadus? That thing can be seriously useful, as Flight Gem Acrobatics is nothing to laugh at, especially coming off a base 115 attack stat. I know Agamemnom made an RMT with that poke, and it seemed pretty effective. It can take out common switch ins such as Blissey with ease.
Yeah guys, please shut up and discuss gently not like complete dicks, you're grown men not ten years old
I would preferably give her 212 Def / 252 SpA / 44 Spe to outspeed Skarmory and gain some little bulk :I
EDIT: Well to help Tobes and since I love Vappy so much here are some calcs :U
In Rain with Specs:
Hydro Pump vs spD Jirachi : 78% - 92.1%
Hydro Pump vs 128 hp / 0 Rotom-W : 97.8% - 115% (fucking lol)
Hydro Pump vs 252 hp / 252 spD Sassy Ferrothorn : 43.8% - 51.7%
Hydro Pump vs 252 hp / 0 Blissey : 46.4% - 54.6%
Hydro Pump vs 252 hp / 0 Latias : 47% - 55.2% (Ice beam : 66.5% - 78.6%)
Hydro Pump vs 252 hp / 252 spD careful Dragonite : 39.9% - 47.2% (p_p yeah)
Hydro Pump vs 0/0 evs and ivs lax lvl 1 Geodude at -6 : 3680400% - 4329927.3% (2HKO without rocks)
Standard Jellicent is 2HKOed by hidden power : 53.1% - 63%
So Vappy can go "No time to Ice Beam, must Hydro Pump" with Specs, and change attacks with LO, but she'll be forced out easily so it's better (imo) to just slap a Specs and spam attacks and then run, rest while necessary
PS: Yes, I realized that Vaporeon can be male too, but I don't give a fu-
Good old Specs Vappy, I'd give her a try when I decide to make a rain team...someday. Anyway is all that speed necessary?
I would preferably give her 212 Def / 252 SpA / 44 Spe to outspeed Skarmory and gain some little bulk :I
EDIT: Well to help Tobes and since I love Vappy so much here are some calcs :U
In Rain with Specs:
Hydro Pump vs spD Jirachi : 78% - 92.1%
Hydro Pump vs 128 hp / 0 Rotom-W : 97.8% - 115% (fucking lol)
Hydro Pump vs 252 hp / 252 spD Sassy Ferrothorn : 43.8% - 51.7%
Hydro Pump vs 252 hp / 0 Blissey : 46.4% - 54.6%
Hydro Pump vs 252 hp / 0 Latias : 47% - 55.2% (Ice beam : 66.5% - 78.6%)
Hydro Pump vs 252 hp / 252 spD careful Dragonite : 39.9% - 47.2% (p_p yeah)
Hydro Pump vs 0/0 evs and ivs lax lvl 1 Geodude at -6 : 3680400% - 4329927.3% (2HKO without rocks)
Standard Jellicent is 2HKOed by hidden power : 53.1% - 63%
So Vappy can go "No time to Ice Beam, must Hydro Pump" with Specs, and change attacks with LO, but she'll be forced out easily so it's better (imo) to just slap a Specs and spam attacks and then run, rest while necessary
PS: Yes, I realized that Vaporeon can be male too, but I don't give a fu-
Ahahahhaha remember when everyone was like screw garchomp it's broken not sandveil, well they have probably never missed 3 hp Ices in a row vs a Sv gliscor and been swept as a result.
Seriously sand veil needs a ban, it is a complete joke that the round after brightpowder is banned an item that grants 10% evasion that sandveil that grants 20% isn't I mean it's double the chance and it's an ability so you an hold leftovers as well.
Oh but all you need to do is switch in a weather inducer to take away sand veil? What and give them the sub that they wanted all along?
But you need sandstorm on the field? Well it's not like the second most used ou pokemon is a sandstreamer is it?
We need to unban garchomp and sand veil and snow cloak. Why? Because it means it an be used in the dw tier and before you say dw is crap if you check the dt thread you can see it has double the usage of UU an official tie with it's own subforum and testing.
Also it means when rough skin is released garchomp will be freed. Because I mean come on whose going to want to unban such an offensive threat anyway even if it's not broken.
And to those of you last round who said garchomp is the problem not Sv ARE YOU STUPID? Do you really think that rough skin garchomp would have got a supermajority, of course sand veil is the problem.
Of course given the precariousness if suspect testing at the moment I propose that something along the lines of a BS clause be created for sand veil snowcloak and shadow tag, and don't even get me started on shadow tag...
Also tobes specs tornadus is pretty cool and rain dance is great even on specs set but it just needs too much support to run effectively, a spinner, eliminate enemy inducers and spdef jirachi just stops it dead in it's tracks.
Seriously sand veil needs a ban, it is a complete joke that the round after brightpowder is banned an item that grants 10% evasion that sandveil that grants 20% isn't I mean it's double the chance and it's an ability so you an hold leftovers as well.
Oh but all you need to do is switch in a weather inducer to take away sand veil? What and give them the sub that they wanted all along?
But you need sandstorm on the field? Well it's not like the second most used ou pokemon is a sandstreamer is it?
We need to unban garchomp and sand veil and snow cloak. Why? Because it means it an be used in the dw tier and before you say dw is crap if you check the dt thread you can see it has double the usage of UU an official tie with it's own subforum and testing.
Also it means when rough skin is released garchomp will be freed. Because I mean come on whose going to want to unban such an offensive threat anyway even if it's not broken.
And to those of you last round who said garchomp is the problem not Sv ARE YOU STUPID? Do you really think that rough skin garchomp would have got a supermajority, of course sand veil is the problem.
Of course given the precariousness if suspect testing at the moment I propose that something along the lines of a BS clause be created for sand veil snowcloak and shadow tag, and don't even get me started on shadow tag...
Also tobes specs tornadus is pretty cool and rain dance is great even on specs set but it just needs too much support to run effectively, a spinner, eliminate enemy inducers and spdef jirachi just stops it dead in it's tracks.
This. I don't know why nobody has caught on yet. Vaporeon is really similar to manaphy, and probably just as problematic. The bulky calm mind set is done well by both pokes, and Vappy has higher special attack to work with too. Possible double standard?
I'm using one right now. Which coverage moves do you run? I'm trying brick break and u-turn, which are pretty good so far. +1 Acrobatics is so powerful, even without the Flying Gem.
Tornadus is really underhyped sadly. He's one of those great Pokemon that are overshadowed or overlooked for no real reason. His speed, mixed attacking stats, priority Sub, Rain Dance, Taunt and Tailwind give it loads of versatility. He'd be a top sweeper if he had Swords Dance IMO.
- Status