Machoke (GP 2/2)

jc104

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Machoke

OK this is an interesting one. If only this were streetmons.

Machoke is clearly a very strong pokemon – taking into account eviolite its defenses are great, its attack is more than passable, and it gets that wonderful STAB DynamicPunch which makes it truly unique. Unfortunately the current metagame absolutely hates Machoke – there are way too many Slowbro, Mew, Deoxys-d, Celebi, Dusclops, Zapdos, and Victini around, making it rather tricky to use Machoke effectively. At the moment I find that I generally need Toxic Spikes or considerable Pursuit support to make Machoke really damaging. However, regardless, it still serves as an impressive defensive Pokemon, giving you a fighting chance against almost anything, provided you get lucky with confusion.

QC 3/3 (PK Gaming, Chou Toshio, Oglemi)

GP 2/2 (Iconic, stamped by ElDino; Swaggersaurus, with a little help from Telamonianajax)

[Overview]

<p>Though Machoke's stats are very decent for an NFE Pokemon, giving it great bulk with an Eviolite and good power, No Guard + DynamicPunch is really what sets Machoke apart. DynamicPunch hits quite hard, and is guaranteed to confuse the target. This causes switches, builds up residual damage, and endlessly frustrates the opponent. When you add Payback, which gives Machoke perfect neutral coverage with the exception of Heracross, Machoke is certainly intimidating. However, the UU metagame is highly hostile to Machoke; there are Ghost- and Psychic-types around every corner, and a metagame often centered on Spikes and Rapid Spin does not suit Machoke at all. Therefore, using Machoke is never going to be easy, but its decent stats and, of course, that STAB No Guard DynamicPunch allow it to be viable in UU.</p>

[SET]
name: RestTalk
move 1: DynamicPunch
move 2: Payback
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
item: Eviolite
ability: No Guard
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>The combination of Rest and Sleep Talk allows Machoke to circumvent many of its usual problems: its lack of recovery, its vulnerability to status moves, and DynamicPunch's meager 8 PP. Given that Machoke has few viable moves, and that it gets near-perfect coverage merely from DynamicPunch and Payback, two moveslots is a small price to pay. With Rest and Sleep Talk giving it excellent longevity, Machoke can make full use of Eviolite, giving it bulk similar to that of defensive Hitmontop, but with a real offensive presence. DynamicPunch is Machoke's main move; alongside No Guard, it is one of the best in the game, causing very decent damage while guaranteeing to confuse the opponent. This will force the opponent to switch repeatedly, racking up residual damage. By hitting Ghost- and Psychic-type opponents, Payback gives Machoke perfect neutral coverage with the exception of Heracross; be warned, though, that it will not make much of an impression on slow, bulky Pokemon like Slowbro and Dusclops.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>There are several alternative spreads that you can run for this set: most notably, you can invest more heavily into one of Machoke's defensive stats. With 252 Defense EVs replacing those in Attack, Machoke can counter many physical attackers, for example Life Orb Mamoswine. Equally, you can increase Machoke's special bulk, but Machoke performs more strongly against physical attackers. With Special Defense investment, however, Machoke can make excellent use of Bulk Up, becoming very tough to take down, and finding opportunities to set up through confusion from DynamicPunch. However, you will have to forgo Sleep Talk, and therefore Machoke may become a sitting duck for two turns. Nonetheless, this set is very dangerous to anyone lacking a phazer. The use of Guts on a RestTalk set, though tempting, is not recommended; Machoke is generally outclassed in this regard by the likes of Hariyama and Heracross.</p>

<p>This set has major trouble with Ghost-types, as well as a number of Psychic-type opponents, such as Celebi, Mew, Deoxys-D, and especially Slowbro, which can switch in repeatedly thanks to Regenerator. Due to their immense bulk and recovery, these Pokemon can be tricky to remove. Toxic Spikes support is helpful, as it can cripple most of the bulkier Ghost- and Psychic-types, allowing Machoke to force its way through while they struggle to KO even with Psychic-type moves. Machoke can also stall out many other Pokemon in the tier. Even better, you can trap and KO many of these checks with Pursuit from the likes of Weavile, Houndoom, and Bisharp. Slowbro is very hard to trap in this way, so you may consider a lure such as mixed Victini. Additionally, you will want to support Machoke with Stealth Rock and also Spikes, if possible, as Machoke forces numerous switches with DynamicPunch, racking up entry hazard damage.</p>

[SET]
name: Substitute
move 1: DynamicPunch
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Payback
move 4: Toxic
item: Eviolite
ability: No Guard
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is fairly similar to the RestTalk set, capitalizing on Machoke's good bulk, decent power, and of course DynamicPunch, but with a slightly more offensive approach. Although it cannot effectively run Leftovers, Substitute is a very useful move for Machoke. With confusion from DynamicPunch, Machoke will find ample opportunity to set one up, and will then be protected from both attacks and status moves. Substitute is crucial in easing prediction, allowing Machoke to avoid using DynamicPunch on a Ghost- or Psychic-type, instead hitting them the following turn with Payback. This is especially important given that Payback no longer hits with full power on the switch. Everything else will be left struggling to break Machoke's Substitutes due to confusion from DynamicPunch, often causing the opponent to switch repeatedly. Given that, barring Heracross, Machoke's two attacks provide perfect neutral coverage, Toxic can be used to cripple many of Machoke's counters, with the notable exception of Celebi. Be warned, however, that many Ghost- and Psychic-types carry Taunt or Substitute; you will need to hit these directly on the switch without first using Substitute.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>There are a couple of alternative moves that can be used on this set over Toxic. Ice Punch allows Machoke to hit the likes of Gligar and Zapdos reasonably hard, but will by some distance fall short of a OHKO on both. Bulk Up is a good boosting move, but Machoke lacks any form of recovery, and therefore will be worn down quickly. Although it may seem tempting to use Leftovers, Machoke has to stay in for a very large number of turns with heavily reduced bulk for it to be worth it. Machoke's EV spread is much more flexible; currently, it maximizes Machoke's power and overall bulk, while ignoring its abysmal Speed. However, Machoke's Speed stat is undeniably important at times. In many situations Machoke is actually too fast, causing Payback to hit with a pathetic 50 Base Power against Slowbro and Dusclops. With a 0 Speed IV Machoke becomes slower than Slowbro, and when you add a Brave nature, it also becomes slower than Dusclops (assuming both have a Speed IV of 31, a Speed EV of 0, and a neutral nature). However, this also means that they will be attacking Machoke first, which can be fatal at times. Alternatively, you may wish for Machoke to set up a Substitute before being hit by a status attack from a wall such as Chansey, which Machoke requires 44 Speed EVs to outrun. However, you are of course detracting from Machoke's bulk or power, and reducing the power of Payback against certain Pokemon.</p>

<p>As with every Machoke set, this has trouble with Ghost- and Psychic-type opponents, due to their resistance or immunity to DynamicPunch. In order to remove them, a Pursuit user is recommended; Weavile and Houndoom are good examples. Additionally, Machoke may require Wish support, as it lacks a way of recovering the health lost through using Substitute. Finally, look to support Machoke with Spikes and Stealth Rock, as this helps capitalize on the switches forced by confusion.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Machoke has very few options that have not been mentioned. Machoke's second ability, Guts, is decent, letting it use Bulk Up or RestTalk to very good effect. Unfortunately, Machoke is outclassed in every role it attempts to play with Guts; Gurdurr does Bulk Up better with superior stats and access to Drain Punch and Mach Punch, and Hariyama and Heracross do RestTalk better. ThunderPunch is a decent option, hitting various Water- and Flying-type opponents reasonably hard, but is usually inferior to Payback or Ice Punch. Machoke has a priority move in Bullet Punch, but without STAB this is too weak to be of use. Machoke also has a host of other Fighting-type moves, for example, Focus Punch, Revenge, and Close Combat. Though at times these may outdamage DynamicPunch, none of these focuses on Machoke's niche, No Guard, and are as such better used by another Pokemon. </p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Due to their immunity to DynamicPunch, Ghost-types are obviously highly useful in dealing with Machoke. Dusclops, Dusknoir, and Spiritomb are probably the best, though none is especially common. Psychic- and Flying-types are also helpful in this regard, the best examples being Slowbro, Celebi, Deoxys-D, Mew, Gligar, and Zapdos. Machoke also hates status moves such as Toxic and Will-O-Wisp if not running Rest.</p>

[Dream World]

<p>Machoke's Dream World ability, Steadfast, is terrible. No Guard is the only real reason to use Machoke, and even Guts is much better.</p>
 
  • Therefore using Slowbro at the moment is hard, but its sheer strength as a Pokemon can let it pull through.
Lol?

Machoke can't learn Stone Edge, apparently. >.>

Lefties could prolly be a slash on Substitute as it allows for Machoke to create more subs, which it can't do with Eviolite.

Guts sucks btw since it removes Machoke's only niche, and that is DynamicPunch.
 

jc104

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Sorry for those two errors. I keep thinking about slowbro because basically it is the only thing getting in machoke's way half of the time.

Unless you intend to to stay in for enough turns for Machoke to recover about 1/3 of its health, eviolite is better. I've recommended wish support instead.
 
What about using Sleep Talk, Guts and Revenge.
I believe it can be really powerful getting STAB x2 plus 1.5x with Guts.
This is the set:
Machoke@Eviolite/Leftovers
Ability Guts
Nature Adamant
Evs HP252/A252/D4
Rest
Sleep Talk
Revenge
Payback
It may sound weird but it can actually be powerful.
It's pretty simple since you can't go fist with 45 Base Speed.
You can revenge or payback everything. Once you take damage
heal with rest and attack with sleep talk while getting boosted
with guts and going last getting x2 with your attacks.
Side Note:
You can also invest in defensive evs while getting stronger with guts.
I know this set lacks No Guard and abusing Dynamic Punch but it can work well
without it. I hope this set is worthy enough to consider. Feedback would be nice telling
me if it's not good enough, outclassed by, or simply not good. Any feedback is useful!!
 
Remember to emphasize that machoke's dynamic punch has a meager pp of 8 maximum iirc, which is another reason not to use it
 

jc104

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NightmareRealm: I'd rather use Heracross or Hariyama or something. Also don't make bad speed sound like a good thing (outside of Trick Room).

chanazn: Yes I intend to mention this, and how RestTalk helps avoid this problem.

merlinnerd922: Of course it will net more KOs. It is 1.5x stronger. The whole "does it get any specific KOs" idea is ridiculous in my opinion; unless you already OHKO everything, damage is damage, and Pokemon will rarely be in perfect condition anyway. Regardless, Dynamicpunch is the reason to use Machamp. If you are going to use Focus Punch use something else that is more powerful. This will go in OO or in AC of the sub set.
 

jc104

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Thanks PK. I already mentioned pursuit several times, but I'll add a few specific ones as teammates.
 
NightmareRealm: I'd rather use Heracross or Hariyama or something. Also don't make bad speed sound like a good thing (outside of Trick Room).

chanazn: Yes I intend to mention this, and how RestTalk helps avoid this problem.

merlinnerd922: Of course it will net more KOs. It is 1.5x stronger. The whole "does it get any specific KOs" idea is ridiculous in my opinion; unless you already OHKO everything, damage is damage, and Pokemon will rarely be in perfect condition anyway. Regardless, Dynamicpunch is the reason to use Machamp. If you are going to use Focus Punch use something else that is more powerful. This will go in OO or in AC of the sub set.
Sorry, I meant important KO's, unless you've already answered that.
 

Focus

Ubers Tester Extraordinaire
It kinda bugs me that the Substitute set's HP is divisible by 4. Why not have the spread of 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def so that Machoke can make 4 subs at full health instead of 3? I know Machoke is slow and is meant to take a hit when it needs to, but it is only 4 EVs.
 

jc104

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Thanks Chou.

I'll be adding Magic Coat to OO. As for the HP thing, I have never needed to make 4 Substitutes with Machoke before taking a hit or some entry hazard damage or something. This is so unbelievably unlikely that I will not lower the HP ev without QC support.
 
I dunno, I'm kind of having a hard time figuring out this thing's relevance in the current meta. Could you elaborate on its differences from Gurrdurr? No Guard + DPunch is cool, but...a lot of things own it.
 

Focus

Ubers Tester Extraordinaire
Ooh! I thought of a better reason to use only 248 HP! Assuming you have 252 HP EVs, the amount of health left after using Substitute once would be 364 - 91 = 273. If we instead give Machoke only 248 HP EVs, then after using Substitute once, it would also have 363 - 90 = 273 health. The difference is that in the second case, Machoke has an extra EV to do whatever it wants with. Of course, this comes at the slight cost of having Machoke' subs being a tad weaker. I guess it just depends how much you rely on the sub to block stuff like Milotic's Scald. In that particular case, you might want to put those 8 extra EV into Special Defense instead, but I digress.
 

jc104

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blajaran said:
I dunno, I'm kind of having a hard time figuring out this thing's relevance in the current meta. Could you elaborate on its differences from Gurrdurr? No Guard + DPunch is cool, but...a lot of things own it.
Well, pretty much all Machoke has over Gurdurr is Sleep Talk, No Guard + DPunch, slightly better Speed and slightly better Special Defense.

However, when you turn it round, Gurdurr only has better physical defense, slightly better Attack, Drain Punch and Mach Punch.

In other words, when using Guts the two Pokemon are very similar, but Gurdurr is slightly better. However, saying "No Guard + DPunch is cool, but what does it have over Gurdurr?" is rather like saying "V-Create is cool, but what does Victini have over other Fire-types?". No Guard + Dynamicpunch is astoundingly good and totally unique (in UU). It is really annoying, racking up damage and forcing loads of switches. I can't see what else it needs to differentiate itself from Gurdurr. Also note that the analysis reflects well what Machoke has to differentiate itself.

And yes, you are right that the metagame does not suit Machoke. Neither for this matter does it suit Gurdurr, but more importantly, you must realise that Machoke is a very strong Pokemon - in any metagame. It probably performs better in OU than it does in UU; just that the metagame is unsuited does not prevent Machoke from being viable with the correct support. We are giving analyses, I believe, to any Pokemon that you might actually have a serious reason for using. Machoke is definitely worthy of this, even if it will never become a top-tier threat.

Focus said:
Ooh! I thought of a better reason to use only 248 HP! Assuming you have 252 HP EVs, the amount of health left after using Substitute once would be 364 - 91 = 273. If we instead give Machoke only 248 HP EVs, then after using Substitute once, it would also have 363 - 90 = 273 health. The difference is that in the second case, Machoke has an extra EV to do whatever it wants with. Of course, this comes at the slight cost of having Machoke' subs being a tad weaker. I guess it just depends how much you rely on the sub to block stuff like Milotic's Scald. In that particular case, you might want to put those 8 extra EV into Special Defense instead, but I digress.
I also do not believe in this reasoning. As a percentage, the difference in the bulk of Machoke's Subs is greater than the difference in Machoke's bulk after having used Sub. Machoke's subs do survive things, and this is an important reason for using it. Anyway, you should also remember that you are reducing Machoke's overall bulk before the use of Sub, which is probably the most important moment anyway.

edit: I mentioned (or implied) the use of lots of hazards several times, and will stress it a lot in the real analysis (which this isn't). I elaborated upon all of the differences between Machoke an Gurdurr (there are few). It seems to me that all you really want to do is argue.
 
I apologize for making it sound like I was saying "remove the analysis, it's worthless." That's not what I was saying at all.

We established in the analysis that we won't ever use Guts on Machoke.

No Guard + DPunch is astoundingly good and unique; I must agree. However, all I wanted was a bit more elaborating in the analysis instead of solely "Machoke is really annoying and may force loads of switches with confusion." Maybe explain how Confusion can phaze out potential enemies? There are no references to entry hazards in your analysis, so maybe that the "forced switches allows Machoke to rack up entry hazards against the opposing team" ? That's all I really wanted in here. It is clearly different from Gurrdurr. I just wanted maybe those differences elaborated and their implications explained.
 

FlareBlitz

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Excuse the slight tangent here.

Jc104, I have noticed that you take criticisms regarding your analyses personally. You have done so a few times in the past. Please don't - I am reasonably certain that everyone here is attempting to help in good faith, and any implications on your part that they "just want to argue" will discourage individuals from contributing advice that could result in a better analysis. If you do not feel that a recommended change is valid, you merely need to state why. Don't take offense :)
 
Maybe I just missed the line then, but the times I read through it..I didn't see it. I just wanted to see that mentioned more, as it's a really cool thing Machoke has going for it. I wasn't only trying to argue.
 
If you look at the AC for both sets there are clear mentions of entry hazards. Especially the first set. I don't think jc104 was calling out blarajan on "just want[ing] to argue". He just wants people to read the entire skeleton before making comments on what to put in the full analysis. Clearly bullet points are just that, subjects that are to be elaborated upon in the full write-up. If you feel like he may have skimped over something such as this it would probably be better to bring it up while this was in the GP stage rather than QC.
 

JockeMS

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Well, pretty much all Machoke has over Gurdurr is Sleep Talk, No Guard + DPunch, slightly better Speed and slightly better Special Defense.

However, when you turn it round, Gurdurr only has better physical defense, slightly better Attack, Drain Punch and Mach Punch.
Don't forget that Gurdurr also has a slighty higher HP as well.

Machoke: 80 / 100 / 70 / 50 / 60 / 45
Gurdurr: 85 / 105 / 85 / 40 / 50 / 40

Just so that people can see the difference.
 

jc104

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OK sorry guys. I don't know about taking it personally, but I was certainly overzealous in defense of my analysis. Jiggz16 is exactly right - I would like peope to read the skeleton, and preferably subsequent posts, before commenting on what is "missing" and I would like people to realise that this is only a skeleton. Other suggestions are of course totally welcome; just remember that if I dismiss them I will do so with full reasoning.

SuperJocke: when talking about defenses I will always incorporate HP into them. Anyway, I suppose Gurdurr does take Seismic Toss slightly better. Thanks for the stats anyway.
 
Machoke
Support with SR and Spikes too if possible, because Machoke forces switches better than almost anything without Roar/WW/Dragon Tail.
Maybe that line was there the entire time and I'm just retarded. When reading through the skeleton I might have just missed it, but I don't know how that happened. However, I knew I didn't miss it twice. Mentions of entry hazards, though in the AC of the first set, aren't in the second set. Since that's a really important thing that Machoke does that Gurrdurr can't, I just wanted to see it stressed. The second set seems even more switch inducing than the first, as well. Sub/Toxic/DPunch would be more effective at producing switches than RestTalk DPunch, so it should atleast be mentioned there.

Obviously it's going to be elaborated in the GP stage, but since it's so damn important I just wanted to see it stressed here as well.

Edit: I'm a retard. >.<.
 

jc104

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me said:
Support with lots of hazards.
That's been there the whole time, as have the other mentions. Anyway, I personally guarantee that this will be heavily stressed, and that Gurdurr will be mentioned in the analysis, largely as a reason not to use Guts or Bulk Up.

In the long run the resttalk set might force more switches - it is fundamentally more defensive.
 

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