Media Yu-Gi-Oh discussion

[Buzzcut]

I'll post more thoughts on that later, but why would you ban Trunade and allow Heavy Storm? Heavy Storm was never good for the game.

The argument is we need some way to get rid of backrow, and Trunade is only ever used for OTK's or making sure big plays in general are uncounterable by spells and traps. That's it's only game mechanic. What Storm does is prevent your opponent from "set 5, set 1 and end" because of the risk of Heavy. It punishes backrow over extension while still allowing for the OTK or big play.

Also, Trunade is harder to counter than Heavy is. If you have something like Starlight Road set, then you just gained off of their Heavy and it's harder for them to make a big play.

When was the last time in this format that you didn't set a trap card when you drew it? Heavy Storm will fix that game mechanic that some feel is a problem.

ok i was bored so here is my proposed banlist (this is not what i think will actually happen, but what i want to happen to help the metagame)

Forbidden

Mind Master (from Limited) - Sure, only used for OTKs
T.G. Hyper Librarian (from Unlimited) - Maybe a bit soon, would like to see how it is limited
Future Fusion (from Limited) - Not sure why - none of the decks that run this have been problematic
Gateway of the Six (from Limited) - Sure
Giant Trunade (from Limited) - Sure
Mind Control (from Limited) - Sure
Monster Reborn (from Limited) - Sure
Royal Tribute (from Semi-Limited) - I'd like to see it at limited first

Limited

Grapha, Dragon God of Dark World (from Unlimited) - not even released yet so it hasn't been problematic for the actual game
Lonefire Blossom (from Semi-Limited) - Sure
Rescue Rabbit (from Unlimited) - Is it even released yet? Need to see how it performs first
Treeborn Frog (from Unlimited) - Sure
Formula Synchron (from Unlimited) - Sure
Legendary Six Samurai - Shi En (from Unlimited) - Sure
Trishula, Dragon of the Ice Barrier (from Unlimited) - Sure
Heavy Storm (from Forbidden) - Sure
Mystical Space Typhoon (from Semi-Limited) - Sure
Pot of Avarice (from Unlimited) - Sure
Shien's Smoke Signal (from Unlimited) - I don't think this needs to be hit after you already hit Gateway and Shi En
Solemn Warning (from Semi-Limited) - Sure
Ultimate Offering (from Unlimited) - A bit soon, but with XYZs I can see this being a problem. Sure

Semi-Limited

Dewloren, Tiger King of the Ice Barrier (from Unlimited) - Sure
Reborn Tengu (from Unlimited) - Sure
Destiny Draw (from Limited) - Sure

Unlimited

Magical Stone Excavation (from Semi-Limited) - Sure
Overload Fusion (from Semi-Limited) - Makes sense with Future Fusion banned, but I disagree with Future Fusion being a problem. But sure
Bottomless Trap Hole (from Semi-Limited) - Sure
Magic Cylinder (from Semi-Limited) - Sure
Ojama Trio (from Semi-Limited) - Sure

also some of these are probably obvious, but if anyone wants me to explain my choices just ask

Opinion beside your choices. Definitely not the worst ban list I've seen.

Why Future Fusion? It's only really ran in Dragon decks which aren't a problem in the slightest. You went kind of hard on Sams, which I understand because they're the definition of an auto-pilot deck.

I'd play under it.

 

[asim]

I'll post more thoughts on that later, but why would you ban Trunade and allow Heavy Storm? Heavy Storm was never good for the game.

i'll paraphrase what atticus said in #yugioh earlier: trunade is sacky and facilitates otks, while heavy storm is less so because it is easy to negate (starlight road and stardust are prime examples)

heavy storm eliminates the "set 5, go" format, and goes back to the old ways where you actually had to decide which cards to set and how many (set 2 i lose to storm vs set 1 i lose to mst)

Why Future Fusion? It's only really ran in Dragon decks which aren't a problem in the slightest. You went kind of hard on Sams, which I understand because they're the definition of an auto-pilot deck.

future fusion has become a one-card ftk in the ocg because of the elemental hero fusions. there's a deck where basically you can draw future fusion and any other 5 cards in your opening hand and you win.

i also like this: <Ice-eyes> it's like a slightly worse painful choice

 

[Arch]

Heavy Storm is a simple back to square one kind of card. With Trunade, it's not just a OTK card, it's more than that. It's a card that let's you prepare for your opponent's next turn even if you don't have the resources for an OTK. It let's you keep your advantage into the next turn.

Trunade is a safer card, and Storm is just, at least to me, an annoying tack that slows things down. I suppose it's just preference, but I think Heavy is fine as a forbidden card.

 

[Cshadow]

Why would you touch Rescue Rabbit? It plays like a much worse Rescue Cat. Much worse being it requires you to use Normal Monsters.


EDIT:

This card cannot be Special Summoned from the Deck. During your Main Phase: You can banish this face-up card; Special Summon 2 Level 4 or lower Normal Monsters with the same name from your Deck. Those monsters are destroyed during the End Phase. The effect of "Rescue Rabbit" can only be used once per turn.

Rescue Rabbit is totally balanced. If it could bring out Gemini Monsters this would be a huge issue, but unfortunately they are Effect Monsters in the deck.

 

[Atticus]

Why would you touch Rescue Rabbit? It plays like a much worse Rescue Cat. Much worse being it requires you to use Normal Monsters.


EDIT:



Rescue Rabbit is totally balanced. If it could bring out Gemini Monsters this would be a huge issue, but unfortunately they are Effect Monsters in the deck.

you are seriously underestimating rabbit. the fact that it can instantly make an evolkaiser raiga in itself is nuts. not to mention that if you already have a fishborg in the grave you can pretty make make quasar with just rabbit and fishborg.

 

[Cshadow]

you are seriously underestimating rabbit. the fact that it can instantly make an evolkaiser raiga in itself is nuts. not to mention that if you already have a fishborg in the grave you can pretty make make quasar with just rabbit and fishborg.

Running Normal Monsters is still a huge liability. They'd also have to be two Normal Dinosaur-type monsters (to bring out Ragia). I will concede though, Evolkaiser Ragia is pretty awesome.

Shooting Quasar Dragon is incredibly easy to bring out regardless, and is broken in it's own right. At least, with Hyper Librarian and Formula at 3, it's really easy to bring out. If I recall correctly there's several other easy-to-do ways.

Rescue Rabbit is good but I don't think he's /so good/ that he needs to be hit that hard.

I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, though.

 

[asim]

Running Normal Monsters is still a huge liability. They'd also have to be two Normal Dinosaur-type monsters (to bring out Ragia). I will concede though, Evolkaiser Ragia is pretty awesome.

rescue rabbit makes water synchro/xyz decks too good, since they can run 3 kabazauls (which are dinos to get ragia and water so they can synch with fishborg). it's really not a liability when they have moray of greed to return the extra kabazauls

also, most water synchro decks were already running the undine/controller engine, so now that just makes rescue rabbit an instant levair or leviathan dragon as well

 

[Atticus]

Running Normal Monsters is still a huge liability. They'd also have to be two Normal Dinosaur-type monsters (to bring out Ragia). I will concede though, Evolkaiser Ragia is pretty awesome.

Shooting Quasar Dragon is incredibly easy to bring out regardless, and is broken in it's own right. At least, with Hyper Librarian and Formula at 3, it's really easy to bring out. If I recall correctly there's several other easy-to-do ways.

Rescue Rabbit is good but I don't think he's /so good/ that he needs to be hit that hard.

I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, though.

you have cards that can take advantage of poor normal draws. moray of greed, white elephants gift, common charity and even avarice for more rabbit madness can get the job done

 

[Warped Worlds]

To be honest, I don't think Heavy Storm is good for the game. With Heavy Storm unbanned, decks which require a large backrow to be effective suffer while faster decks just reap the benefits way too much.

There is already ways to deal with a larger backrow, and Heavy Storm is way too easy of a +x with Solemn Judgment at one.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I used to love this game, but recently I only play it on DS-- which means I'm only ever really up-to-date on the meta about once a year; essentially a week or a month after the DS game comes out and I've become acquainted with everything good (in the cartridge at least).

Right now, my hobby in the cartridge is figuring out how to destroy six sams (because they're gay as shit with 3 gates and unlimited on all their other good shit too).

I have a penchant for Water-type decks, everything from frog monarch to a bunch of different Hero builds. My favorite build was in the WCS 2010 game, I played mostly a deck based on Water/Hero deck to make ridiculous special summons-- Deep Sea Diva + Malicious, Hero Fusions (mostly Ocean), and Debris Dragon + King of the Swamp (+Treeborn Frog to make 8's sometimes)->Gungir. I had a random Dandilion thrown in to dump with Future Fusions/Foolish and help me make Trishula, and Instant Fusions to make my fusions and Deep Sea Diva synchs more consistent.

The deck had ridiculous offensive ability, but without Heavy Storm, the amount of powerful defensive cards in the 2011 game really held it back, and it seemed clunky with too much going on.

I always tend to build those ridiculously over-offensive decks though

edit: I agree with LizardMan-- bring the fuckin' storm back. Being able to set 4-5 Trap/Instant Magic without giving a crap about any risk is stupid; especially since negating Black Rose Dragon is so fucking easy now.

 

[porygon3]

The main decks that are going to be consistently setting 4-5 cards are things like gladiators and gravekeepers etc. Heavy storm hurts control decks like those, which in turn makes the faster decks more effective. Synchros and XYZ monsters are already overpowered, I see no reason to make them even stronger

yeah, it's annoying seeing "set 1 monster and 4 spells/traps, go," but it's a lot better than the alternative "summon 2-3 synchros in one turn."

 

[Nilf]

rescue rabbit makes water synchro/xyz decks too good, since they can run 3 kabazauls (which are dinos to get ragia and water so they can synch with fishborg). it's really not a liability when they have moray of greed to return the extra kabazauls

also, most water synchro decks were already running the undine/controller engine, so now that just makes rescue rabbit an instant levair or leviathan dragon as well

I don't know about other water synchro decks but my Cloudian deck is pretty tightly packed. Not sure there is space for 3 normal beatsticks (with only 1700 atk). Evolkaiser is a great card but I don't think it's good enough to warrant all that.
Particularly in the extra deck, 3 Forumla's, 2/3 Librarians, the 3 ice barrier dragons, Stardust, Shooting Star, Quasar are all staples and I would say better than Evolkaiser. If you want to run evolkaisers then you don't get to have any other tech synchros (Black Rose, Scrap Dragon etc). You also don't get to run Elemental Hero Absolute Zero which is pretty neat as it works well with Destiny Hero Malicious and Future Fusion.

I think the fact that Rescue rabbit is removed from the game (unlike cat) is reason enough to say it isn't broken. Cat you could recycle a lot easier. I guess we'll see now that XYZ's are out how easy he is to abuse (I haven't been able to get on DN because of this stupid server cap thing =/). Not really sure what other decks rabbit is run in...

After seeing all the XYZ cards, they don't seem that broken yet (I reckon they will be after they get better support)? As I said I haven't been on DN since they came out so maybe I'm just missing something...

 

[Cshadow]

Technically you can recycle Rescue Rabbit with Levaiel, but his effect says "once per turn", so that really depends on whether or not Levaiel survives until the next turn.

 

[Glen]

rabbit is stupidly overpowered. obviously its not as broken as cat solely because goyo + darksoul search for 1 card is kinda hilarious. but it will no doubt change the game for the worse.

tour guide, however, is better than rescue cat ever was, and is also at 3. i am not looking forward to the future of yugioh.

 

[Cshadow]

Can someone give me a reason Rescue Rabbit is broken other than bringing out that Evol dude and Shooting Quasar, because these cards are probably broken all by themselves without Rabbit's help.

Although I am really seeing how powerful Rescue Rabbit can be now, I'm just wondering if Rescue Rabbit isn't the root of the problem and it is instead the cards it is able to bring out.

 

[Glen]

Although I am really seeing how powerful Rescue Rabbit can be now, I'm just wondering if Rescue Rabbit isn't the root of the problem and it is instead the cards it is able to bring out.

ok so apply that logic to rescue cat

 

[Cshadow]

Well I mean like, Rescue Rabbit gives you an alternative way to bring out a card that is already broken without Rescue Rabbit (For this example - Shooting Quasar Dragon, T.G. Hyper Librarian, the works) - does that make Rescue Rabbit broken? Or just Shooting Quasar Dragon/T.G. Hyper Librarian?

Rescue Cat gave X-Sabers broken momentum (my friend was able to Sycnhro 11 times when he played Cat). X-Sabers are great - but Rescue Cat was what pushed them over the edge, while the cards Rescue Rabbit lets you Synchro into are already broken to begin with.

Maybe I'm just missing something? I could also be dead wrong.

 

[Arch]

I agree with LizardMan-- bring the fuckin' storm back.

To be honest, I don't think Heavy Storm is good for the game

Wat?

 

[Max]

I just got back into Yu-Gi-Oh! and have been playing a lot of DN lately, haha. I'm making an X-sabers deck right now, so we'll see what happens. I hope to eventually play at regionals/ycs and get a nats invite!

 

[Chou Toshio]

oh lol-- I somehow read it as "TBH I don't think having Heavy Storm Banned is good for the meta" my bad

 

[Jebus McAzn]

Well I mean like, Rescue Rabbit gives you an alternative way to bring out a card that is already broken without Rescue Rabbit (For this example - Shooting Quasar Dragon, T.G. Hyper Librarian, the works) - does that make Rescue Rabbit broken? Or just Shooting Quasar Dragon/T.G. Hyper Librarian?

Rescue Cat gave X-Sabers broken momentum (my friend was able to Sycnhro 11 times when he played Cat). X-Sabers are great - but Rescue Cat was what pushed them over the edge, while the cards Rescue Rabbit lets you Synchro into are already broken to begin with.

Maybe I'm just missing something? I could also be dead wrong.

Evolkaiser and Quasar are super-strong cards in their own right. Rabbit facilitates the summoning of these two cards.

In addition, several decks will have no disadvantage whatsoever running rabbit - not only does it thin the deck and make Avarice recycling easier, several decks can even take advantage of "dead draws" via Moray of Greed in Fish decks, as an example. Cloudian Synchro can already first or second turn Quasar around 80% of the time. Given Rabbit, you won't even need the Cloudian engine any more. Bring out Evolkaiser or Steelswarm Roach, recycle for Quasar, GG.

Oh I see, use it in their turn.
I don't use a lot of those cards though, I run pure Karakuris save for two Cyber Dragons.
My deck is this:

Karakuris

21 Monsters
3x Karakuri Komachi
3x Karakuri Ninja Kuick
2x Karakuri Strategist
3x Karakuri Merchant
2x Cyber Dragon
3x Karakuri Soldier
3x Karakuri Watchdog
2x Karakuri Ninja Nanashick
15 Spells
Monster Reborn
Pot of Avarice
2x Machine Duplication
2x Solidarity
Limiter Removal
2x Karakuri Cash Cache
3x Karakuri Showdown Castle
Giant Trunade
Lightning Vortex
Book of Moon
6 Traps
Mirror Force
2x Karakuri Trick House
2x Karakuri Cash Shed
Waboku
6 Extra Deck
3x Karakuri Shogun Burei
3x Karakuri Shotgun Burrito*
Total: 42, 6 Extra Deck

*An affectionate nickname. :D

Seems to work pretty well for me though I haven't had a preferable amount of time in the recent meta...
I'm thinking of swapping out machine dupes. They work beautifully sometimes but other times I already have a full field, or the wrong monsters, or Solidarity up and running and its just a dead weight. I'm thinking maybe Assembly Line/s or a third Trick House/Cash Shed in their places.
I also want more extra deck of course, but I'm playing in real life, so money etc. I'd like Catastor; merchant is a dead weight after its effect, but tuning it with Komachi/Strategist would be nice, especially since Catastor is a machine meaning it gets/doesn't fuck up Solidarity and can be used in further synchroing for Bureido. Oh and its effect is good too of course.

The reason that pure Karakuri isn't amazing is because of how slow they are. A lot of your recruitment is battle-based and with the amount of destruction/removal now, you'll fall behind. Machine Dupe is iffy because it leads to a lot of dead hands. You're not even running Cyber Valley to take advantage of that.

Personally I love Duelingdays' deck list.

Machina Kikou Kuri

Monster [23]
[3] Machina Gearframe
[3] Machina Fortress
[1] Machina Cannon
[3] Karakuri Soldier mdl 236 "Nisamu"
[2] Karakuri Ninja mdl 919 "Kuick"
[2] Karakuri Strategist mdl 248 "Nishipachi"
[2] Karakuri Komachi mdl 224 "Ninishi"
[1] Karakuri Watchdog mdl 313 "Saizan"
[1] Unknown Synchron
[2] Glow-Up Bulb
[2] Effect Veiler
[1] Meklord Army of Granel

Spells [9]
[2] Pot of Avarice
[1] Monster Reborn
[1] Limiter Removal
[1] Giant Trunade
[1] Book of Moon
[1] Foolish Burial
[1] One for One
[1] De-Synchro

Trap [8]
[2] Chaos Infinity
[2] Solemn Warning
[2] Trap Stun
[1] Solemn Judgement
[1] Trap Dustshoot

Extra Deck:
[3] Karakuri Steel Shogun mdl 00X "Bureido"
[3] Karakuri Shogon mdl 00 "Burei"
[1] Naturia Landoise
[1] Naturia Barkion
[1] Naturia Beast
[1] Scrap Dragon
[1] Stardust Dragon
[2] Black Rose Dragon
[1] T.G. Hyper Librarian
[1] Ally of Justice Catastor

Works amazingly well. Have Fortress in hand or grave? Have Glow-Up or One for One in hand? Enjoy your triple Bureido, Strategist, and 3 card draw.

Naturias are in the extra for control. This deck also gets Black Rose out very easily and can recover with Fortress. Scrap is strong as well. Overall it's a great deck that I really like playing.

Granel is the dark horse in the deck. It's a weird card, but you can bust out some great plays with Chaos Infinity and you can also take down big boss monsters with Granel and it's effect that basically makes it a slightly beefier Gale.

 

[Buzzcut]

To be honest, I don't think Heavy Storm is good for the game. With Heavy Storm unbanned, decks which require a large backrow to be effective suffer while faster decks just reap the benefits way too much.

There is already ways to deal with a larger backrow, and Heavy Storm is way too easy of a +x with Solemn Judgment at one.

More cards than just Judgment can negate Heavy, which is why I believe it's more balanced than Trunade. Starlight Road will make a comeback and Stardust can negate it as well. The major control decks like GKs and Glads don't synchro, so they have room for a few Stardust Dragons and can + while still maintaining backrow control.

 

[Lord Jesseus]

@Jebus: I wouldn't call them slow. I find thanks to Komachi I'm typically tuning turn one or two. Between Merchant, Cash Cache, super draw power and copious special summoning it's not hard to get her out either, and Kuick and Avarice help recycle her.
I agree with machine dupes though, I'm probably replacing them soon.

I can certainly see the value in that deck though, but in truth I take a lot of pride in winning without using the more popular deck builds.I've actually been using Karakuris since they first hit the scene. They struggled a bit at first but it's been fun...

 

[TheBlueJayfan]

I use to play yu-gi-oh and I still have my deck. I use to play competitively now I just play for fun. I have a beatdown skill drain deck.

 

[Arch]

Dat Xyz