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Exploring the Glitchmon Metagame
- Thread starter Theorymon
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I don't really see much of a reason to use an Imprison Electrode set when Deoxys-S is around. Though tbh I'm sorta skeptical of that too. I'd rather just Sheer Cold Machamp / Machoke in this case, and a set of Imprison / Spore / ExtremeSpeed / Sheer Cold sounds sorta ineffective because it doesn't do much once it uses Imprison. I may try Imprison on Machoke though just because it could screw up mons with Spore or Sheer Cold on the switch.
It learns mimic by gen 3 mimic tutor iirc
Some more ideas to test:
Shell Smash Banette:
Yes, seriously. The main reasons to use this are Insomnia, which gives it immunity to the common Spore; Ghost typing, which gives it immunity to ExtremeSpeed; and base 115 Attack, which makes it perhaps the only viable, physically based Ghost in Streetmons. Though this may not sound that impressive when compared to the likes of Groudon, Banette has total freedom as far as items are concerned, not needing a lum berry at all. With a Life Orb, Banette's power is absolutely comparable to that of other potent Shell Smashers.
Of course, I can also see numerous problems. Banette is terribly frail, and as such will struggle to set up. Base 65 Speed, though adequate after a boost, is hardly helping in this regard. On top of this, Banette desperately needs to avoid Sacred Fire, as a burn will cripple it completely. Banette is also desperately lacking a decent STAB move. Shadow Force is rather easily exploited, but is really the only STAB attack worth considering (maybe, just maybe, Shadow Sneak). It may be best to forgo STAB entirely. Anyway, this is one to try.
Tangrowth:
I'm pretty sure this thing is good, but I can't work out what its best set is. Fantastic base Defense, good attacking stats on both sides and, of course, Chlorophyll, make this a fearsome sweeper. Shell Smash is probably the most threatening set, as it can afford to run very little Speed, becoming extremely bulky, or even going mixed. However, I can also see Swords Dance or Dragon Dance alongside V-Create (ouch). Even Tail Glow is possible. Obviously, it's reliant on sun, but, being a Grass-type, it certainly deters Kyogre. With Shell Smash it can even go on sweeping in the rain.
Of course, this is not to mention Tangrowth's other ability, Leaf Guard. This gives Tangrowth immunity to sleep moves in the sun! The Shell Smash set might benefit from this, but more importantly, Tangrowth is viable on Trick Room sun teams too. Something like Trick Room/V-create/Power Whip/Spore would work, but again there are a whole host of other options, and I have no idea what item or spread to use.
edit: now, after chatting to Snorlax94 I'm thinking special TR is better. In fact, I think special Tangrowth is better in general. I've also realised that Shell Smash variants are too vulnerable to Ursaring, so maybe Tail Glow is the best option for the Chlorophyll set.
Here's the special TR set:
Tangrowth (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Leaf Guard
EVs: 40 HP / 216 Def / 252 SAtk
Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
- Trick Room
- Blue Flare
- Seed Flare
- Spore
Shell Smash Banette:
Yes, seriously. The main reasons to use this are Insomnia, which gives it immunity to the common Spore; Ghost typing, which gives it immunity to ExtremeSpeed; and base 115 Attack, which makes it perhaps the only viable, physically based Ghost in Streetmons. Though this may not sound that impressive when compared to the likes of Groudon, Banette has total freedom as far as items are concerned, not needing a lum berry at all. With a Life Orb, Banette's power is absolutely comparable to that of other potent Shell Smashers.
Of course, I can also see numerous problems. Banette is terribly frail, and as such will struggle to set up. Base 65 Speed, though adequate after a boost, is hardly helping in this regard. On top of this, Banette desperately needs to avoid Sacred Fire, as a burn will cripple it completely. Banette is also desperately lacking a decent STAB move. Shadow Force is rather easily exploited, but is really the only STAB attack worth considering (maybe, just maybe, Shadow Sneak). It may be best to forgo STAB entirely. Anyway, this is one to try.
Tangrowth:
I'm pretty sure this thing is good, but I can't work out what its best set is. Fantastic base Defense, good attacking stats on both sides and, of course, Chlorophyll, make this a fearsome sweeper. Shell Smash is probably the most threatening set, as it can afford to run very little Speed, becoming extremely bulky, or even going mixed. However, I can also see Swords Dance or Dragon Dance alongside V-Create (ouch). Even Tail Glow is possible. Obviously, it's reliant on sun, but, being a Grass-type, it certainly deters Kyogre. With Shell Smash it can even go on sweeping in the rain.
Of course, this is not to mention Tangrowth's other ability, Leaf Guard. This gives Tangrowth immunity to sleep moves in the sun! The Shell Smash set might benefit from this, but more importantly, Tangrowth is viable on Trick Room sun teams too. Something like Trick Room/V-create/Power Whip/Spore would work, but again there are a whole host of other options, and I have no idea what item or spread to use.
edit: now, after chatting to Snorlax94 I'm thinking special TR is better. In fact, I think special Tangrowth is better in general. I've also realised that Shell Smash variants are too vulnerable to Ursaring, so maybe Tail Glow is the best option for the Chlorophyll set.
Here's the special TR set:
Tangrowth (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Leaf Guard
EVs: 40 HP / 216 Def / 252 SAtk
Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
- Trick Room
- Blue Flare
- Seed Flare
- Spore
Shadow Force worked for Arceus and Giratina. It'll work for Banette. You also get Close Combat/HJK for perfect neutral coverage, which is sweet. That gives you a free move. How about Substitute to beat random Ursaring Shadow Sneaks and Sacred Fire burns? Or a sacred fire of your own? Spore? Gastro Acid to stop sheer cold? Magic Coat? You have a lot of filler to try out here.
tehy
Banned deucer.
Also, i had a good idea.
Forretress.
Think about it-with sturdy and great defense he counters machoke and machamp, he can set up hazards with his extra moves, stab u-turn off of 90 base attack. Finally, if hazards ever DO become popular, he can spin them. Also, now he can use recover.
Donphan also seems like a good choice for this, but substitute in STAB eq.
Forretress.
Think about it-with sturdy and great defense he counters machoke and machamp, he can set up hazards with his extra moves, stab u-turn off of 90 base attack. Finally, if hazards ever DO become popular, he can spin them. Also, now he can use recover.
Donphan also seems like a good choice for this, but substitute in STAB eq.
How come I haven't heard a lot of talk about Belly Drum priority spam? It seems to me like something along the lines of Snorlax could use Belly Drum, ExtremeSpeed, Shadow Sneak, and Mach Punch to good effect. If you were worried about status you could use Guts/Quick Feet Ursaring or something more subtle like Magic Guard Clefable
I've only had a few sparring matches but so far this is the Forretress I've had the best experiences with:
Forretress @ Lum Berry
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Ability: Sturdy
Nature: Relaxed (+Def, -Spe) 0 Spe IVs
Trick Room
Spore
Stealth Rock
U-turn
Let's face it, Forretress isn't an offensive juggernaut and its 4x weakness to V-Create is highly undesirable. However, It is a very effective support Pokemon for a Trick Room team. Under Trick Room it is slower than Machoke and can Spore it, set up a hazard, or U-turn away. U-turn is particularly helpful for Forretress given the immense unpredictability of streetmons, in that it allows Forretress to keep whatever momentum it might earn. If it sets up TR and Spores an opponent, U-turn allows Forretress to do at least visible damage thanks to STAB, but more importantly with 5th Gen Sleep mechanics it essentially allows you to either bring in a counter to your opponent's Pokemon knowing it will still be asleep when the switch is made, or alternatively lets you counter whichever Pokemon they bring in with one of your own. It also has utility in letting Forretress get away from teams that use trappers while keeping the Lum Berry that defends it against other Spores (in lieu of Shed Shell). Not to mention it can get away from "faster" V-Creates under Trick Room, another very useful function.
Granted the set doesn't have recovery, but since Wish has epic distribution in Streetmons and Forry finds its best use in switching into OHKO moves and normal attacks like Extremespeed, it can go in and out several times. It may seem weird that a Pokemon with 354 HP and 416 Def with Sturdy is best suited to an in-and-out role, but welcome to Streetmons I suppose. It's much more important to be able to switch into boosted Extremespeed 8 times. Another cool note: Unless Ursaring itself has 0 Spe IVs and Brave nature, Forretress is still slower under TR if Ursaring has used V-Create previously, so you can use Forry to bait a second one and hit Ursaring's lowered Defense.
I've been using it with SR since its the best one-move hazard, but you could certainly replace it with another hazard or possibly Rapid Spin. Maybe even Recycle if you think another mon has a better shot at setting up hazards and you want another Lum. Forretress just isn't cut out for attacking in Streetmons. I've had Gyro Ball on a few sets and there's simply too many other TR abusing mons and Shell Smashers with steel resistance or neutrality for it to be useful. Forretress is at its best in a supporting role.
Forretress @ Lum Berry
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Ability: Sturdy
Nature: Relaxed (+Def, -Spe) 0 Spe IVs
Trick Room
Spore
Stealth Rock
U-turn
Let's face it, Forretress isn't an offensive juggernaut and its 4x weakness to V-Create is highly undesirable. However, It is a very effective support Pokemon for a Trick Room team. Under Trick Room it is slower than Machoke and can Spore it, set up a hazard, or U-turn away. U-turn is particularly helpful for Forretress given the immense unpredictability of streetmons, in that it allows Forretress to keep whatever momentum it might earn. If it sets up TR and Spores an opponent, U-turn allows Forretress to do at least visible damage thanks to STAB, but more importantly with 5th Gen Sleep mechanics it essentially allows you to either bring in a counter to your opponent's Pokemon knowing it will still be asleep when the switch is made, or alternatively lets you counter whichever Pokemon they bring in with one of your own. It also has utility in letting Forretress get away from teams that use trappers while keeping the Lum Berry that defends it against other Spores (in lieu of Shed Shell). Not to mention it can get away from "faster" V-Creates under Trick Room, another very useful function.
Granted the set doesn't have recovery, but since Wish has epic distribution in Streetmons and Forry finds its best use in switching into OHKO moves and normal attacks like Extremespeed, it can go in and out several times. It may seem weird that a Pokemon with 354 HP and 416 Def with Sturdy is best suited to an in-and-out role, but welcome to Streetmons I suppose. It's much more important to be able to switch into boosted Extremespeed 8 times. Another cool note: Unless Ursaring itself has 0 Spe IVs and Brave nature, Forretress is still slower under TR if Ursaring has used V-Create previously, so you can use Forry to bait a second one and hit Ursaring's lowered Defense.
I've been using it with SR since its the best one-move hazard, but you could certainly replace it with another hazard or possibly Rapid Spin. Maybe even Recycle if you think another mon has a better shot at setting up hazards and you want another Lum. Forretress just isn't cut out for attacking in Streetmons. I've had Gyro Ball on a few sets and there's simply too many other TR abusing mons and Shell Smashers with steel resistance or neutrality for it to be useful. Forretress is at its best in a supporting role.
I was battling some guy called DSM01 yesterday, and, quite simply, he destroyed me. 2/3 of my teams were demolished by one Pokemon almost single-handedly. To make this even worse, this Pokemon was not a sweeper. It was not a baton passer. It didn't even boost its stats at all. This Pokemon was Skarmory, a Pokemon I thought relatively harmless outside of a support role. It was not Skarmory itself that was so threatening, but rather its moveset, a moveset which could be transferred to any number of Pokemon.
This moveset revolved around the combination of Spore and Whirlwind. Generation 5 brought with it new sleep mechanics, such that the sleep counter is reset after a Pokemon switches out. Therefore, if a Pokemon is forced out while sleeping, it will have stay in for several turns straight in order to wake up. Essentially, a sleeping Pokemon when switched out is as good as, if not worse than a fainted Pokemon. If they come back in, they can be forced straight back out by Whirlwind at no cost, set up on, or simply KOed. Also crucial to the set was Substitute, which would be used to scout switch-ins, prevent opposing Spores, protect against 1-turn sleeps, and to take advantage of sleeping opposition. In the last slot he used a variety of things, including some attacks, and disable, but I considered these somewhat peripheral.
Anyway, I quickly decided that Skarmory was probably not the best choice for this role. Certainly, it was very lacking in Speed, and could be walled by some pokemon. What I chose instead for this role was Jirachi, taking the most annoying Pokemon in the game, and making it even more annoying. Here is the set:
Jirachi @ Leftovers
80 HP / 252 Def / 176 Spe
Nature: Jolly (+Spe, -SpA)
Iron Head
Spore
Substitute
Whirlwind
How to use this set: you need to get jirachi in on something which it can spore. This means either something lacking lum berry, or something it walls completely. Use Spore, or Sub and then Spore. Sub will cover against switches and Magic Coat. After the opponent is asleep, you can use this opportunity to set up another sub, or to phaze the opponent out, unless they get a 1-turn sleep. If you want, you can use Iron Head repeatedly, as the opponent will likely flinch as it wakes. This lets you reset the sleep counter again, allowing you to freely whirlwind them away, without ever having risked being hit. Obviously, you can also use Whirlwind if the opponent tries to set up on you.
My favourite way to use this set is with Toxic Spikes. Sub+Iron Head+Poison is a powerful strategy, but more importantly this will burn up Lum berries, letting you spore more freely.
A more defensive spread can be used to prevent Ursaring from breaking Jirachi's subs. However, Ursaring must use V-Create to do significant damage, and will be crippled by the defense drops. To build up more residual damage, it is also best to provide stealth rock support, and perhaps sand stream support from Tyranitar. This thing can put an entire team to sleep, but of course still requires a consistent source of damage.
This moveset revolved around the combination of Spore and Whirlwind. Generation 5 brought with it new sleep mechanics, such that the sleep counter is reset after a Pokemon switches out. Therefore, if a Pokemon is forced out while sleeping, it will have stay in for several turns straight in order to wake up. Essentially, a sleeping Pokemon when switched out is as good as, if not worse than a fainted Pokemon. If they come back in, they can be forced straight back out by Whirlwind at no cost, set up on, or simply KOed. Also crucial to the set was Substitute, which would be used to scout switch-ins, prevent opposing Spores, protect against 1-turn sleeps, and to take advantage of sleeping opposition. In the last slot he used a variety of things, including some attacks, and disable, but I considered these somewhat peripheral.
Anyway, I quickly decided that Skarmory was probably not the best choice for this role. Certainly, it was very lacking in Speed, and could be walled by some pokemon. What I chose instead for this role was Jirachi, taking the most annoying Pokemon in the game, and making it even more annoying. Here is the set:
Jirachi @ Leftovers
80 HP / 252 Def / 176 Spe
Nature: Jolly (+Spe, -SpA)
Iron Head
Spore
Substitute
Whirlwind
How to use this set: you need to get jirachi in on something which it can spore. This means either something lacking lum berry, or something it walls completely. Use Spore, or Sub and then Spore. Sub will cover against switches and Magic Coat. After the opponent is asleep, you can use this opportunity to set up another sub, or to phaze the opponent out, unless they get a 1-turn sleep. If you want, you can use Iron Head repeatedly, as the opponent will likely flinch as it wakes. This lets you reset the sleep counter again, allowing you to freely whirlwind them away, without ever having risked being hit. Obviously, you can also use Whirlwind if the opponent tries to set up on you.
My favourite way to use this set is with Toxic Spikes. Sub+Iron Head+Poison is a powerful strategy, but more importantly this will burn up Lum berries, letting you spore more freely.
A more defensive spread can be used to prevent Ursaring from breaking Jirachi's subs. However, Ursaring must use V-Create to do significant damage, and will be crippled by the defense drops. To build up more residual damage, it is also best to provide stealth rock support, and perhaps sand stream support from Tyranitar. This thing can put an entire team to sleep, but of course still requires a consistent source of damage.
A Focus Sash usually means you can get Trick Room up, and Trick Room has negative priority so Deoxys-S would still go last
Sash sucks because its a straight invitation for Ursaring to pop his head in and kill you.
I don't think TSpikes has much awesome synergy with Spore either, just noting.
I don't think TSpikes has much awesome synergy with Spore either, just noting.
Well then... it appears my secret is out. I was hoping this would remain unknown for just a little while longer, but now that I think about it I suppose my incredible anti-meta Skarm is just what we need to spice things up a bit and hopefully attract some new players to this still-evolving metagame.
Anyway, on to the topic of Skarm itself. Surely you aren't naive enough to believe that the creator of such a revolutionary set was foolish enough to overlook a Pokemon that could potentially do the job better. Contrary to your assessment, I still believe that Skarmory is the most suitable Pokemon for this position. To start off, my Skarmory is more physically bulky than your Jirachi, although why you run so much Speed is beyond me; most major threats in Street Pokemon are quite slow. Despite its lower Speed, Skarm is still fast enough to outrun most important threats without investing in Speed at all (and can always run more Speed if you feel the need to outrun specific threats). Skarm also has superior typing, and with Bonemerang becoming more common, a Ground immunity as opposed to a Ground weakness is a huge boon. The last, and, in my opinion, most important advantage Skarmory possesses over Jirachi is its ability: Sturdy. This allows it to come in on Machoke and Machamp and actually use them as set up fodder. Jirachi can only dream of this, as switching into a Sheer Cold is a death sentence for the Wishmaker. Machoke and Machamp can only DynamicPunch Skarmory for pitiful damage as it proceeds to Spore them and then Whirlwind them away.
On to the set and analysis!
Skarmory @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: My specific EVs are confidential, but 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef works fine
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Spore
- Whirlwind
- Spikes/Disable/Close Combat
jc has already explained most of this, so I won’t go into too much detail. Like he said, get in safely, Spore or Sub depending on the situation, and then proceed to sleep and phaze anything slower. It’s not uncommon for this Skarm to put half your opponent’s team to sleep and still be behind a Substitute. If you have Stealth Rock up, this thing can take down entire teams once it gets rolling; Whirlwind faster Pokes who you suspect have a Lum Berry, re-Sub on a slower Poke or sleeping Poke that will inevitably be forced out, and repeat.
The last move is a toss-up between Disable and Close Combat. At first I had Close Combat, which allows you to take out Ursaring if you don’t have an answer for him. Switch in on Fake Out or ExtremeSpeed, Sub as Ursaring V-Creates, and, if you have enough residual damage (which isn’t hard to get on Ursaring), kill the unsuspecting bear with your mighty Close Combat, which deals 63.6% - 75.4% to a -1 Def 0/252 Ursaring. On my current team, I have Omastar, who uses Ursaring for set up fodder, so it is not necessary to kill it immediately (in fact, it’s preferred that I keep it alive so that Omastar can set up on it). In this case, Disable works phenomenally. Similar to Sub Disable Gengar, not many Pokes have two moves that can break or even hit Skarm’s Substitutes. You can Disable Machoke/Machamp’s DynamicPunch, Ursaring’s V-Create, Groudon’s V-Create/Sacred Fire, or other random attacks from Pokes that you suspect can only hit you with one move, all of which will guarantee you a free Substitute. Use Close Combat only if you have severe issues with Ursaring; otherwise, Disable is the superior option.
EDIT: Spikes should be the primary option in the last slot. This allows you to rack up more entry hazard damage and facilitates your own "sweep." This set can still be used without Spikes if that's what your team calls for, as sleeping half of the opponent's team is still an accomplishment, but additional damage is always appreciated. In this meta, it can be hard to find a slot on your team for hazards; Skarmory is perfect for both setting them up and abusing them to their full extent.
I think it would be hilarious if this Skarm became immensely popular, firstly because it would be absurd to have a defensive Poke be so successful in such a heavily offensive metagame, and also because Magnezone might start running a customized Skarm-killer set, swapping Sturdy and Spore for Magnet Pull and Taunt. Whatever the case, the ability to shut down stally Pokes and set up on top threats is what makes this Skarm so potent and it is definitely something you should be prepared for.
Also, epic first post.
Simple Numel does not have access to the glitch, as Mimic is a gen 3 tutor move, and Simple is a gen 4 ability. I wouldn't expect that to work anyway.
Also, I think that guy is trying to claim that he thought up the strategy mentioned on the previous page, regarding the jirachi/skarm sets. I don't think he is suggesting using it in streetmons.
edit: I've got some logs to show how Jirachi (and skarm) work. Obviously I didn't play perfectly, throwing one away pointlessly at the end, but hopefully you should get an idea how it works, and how terrifying it is.
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-jc104-vs-Aurist--2011-09-27-private1868008231
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-jc104-vs-Aurist--2011-09-27
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Theorymon-vs-jc104--2011-09-26
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-jc104-vs-Toaster--2011-09-27
Also, I think that guy is trying to claim that he thought up the strategy mentioned on the previous page, regarding the jirachi/skarm sets. I don't think he is suggesting using it in streetmons.
edit: I've got some logs to show how Jirachi (and skarm) work. Obviously I didn't play perfectly, throwing one away pointlessly at the end, but hopefully you should get an idea how it works, and how terrifying it is.
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-jc104-vs-Aurist--2011-09-27-private1868008231
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-jc104-vs-Aurist--2011-09-27
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Theorymon-vs-jc104--2011-09-26
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-jc104-vs-Toaster--2011-09-27
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