Because of Amoonguss I'm doubting Tentacool's viability right now, Toxic Spikes are very difficult to use, as many common Pokemon don't care about them (Braviary, Zangoose, Amoonguss). It's niche would be as a spinner, but it can't beat any spin blockers except the rare lampent - so that it out of the question. I believe that Tentacool would be viable if Amoonguss goes to OU, but not until then.
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Quality Control for On-Site Analyses
- Thread starter jake
- Start date
Yeah, I'd say Tentacool should wait a bit. Zangoose is being suspected and looks like it may be BL3 from the discussion, Amoonguss's usage is pretty good in every other tier where it can move up to, and Golurk looks like it may enter RU again in the future (it destroys Tentacool most of the time). Toxic Spikes would otherwise not suck as much as it does, and really, Rapid Spin is so desparately needed it probably isn't the worst choice for one ever.
If any of them stay in the tier, I'd say Tentacool isn't really worth it, but its niche is... somewhat useful for stall Teams (that and Emboar is a poweful mofo, so Tentacool getting OHKOd isn't a complete bane) since none of the T-Spikes Users are really that worth it at all except Garbodor and it isn't weak to SR like all the other Spinners.
If any of them stay in the tier, I'd say Tentacool isn't really worth it, but its niche is... somewhat useful for stall Teams (that and Emboar is a poweful mofo, so Tentacool getting OHKOd isn't a complete bane) since none of the T-Spikes Users are really that worth it at all except Garbodor and it isn't weak to SR like all the other Spinners.
I removed Tentacool for the time being. It might be considered viable in the future, but for now it's not going to be on-site.
A few people have brought up the issue of Gardevoirhttp://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/gardevoir's set ordering. It's got seven different sets with hugely different applications; the trouble is what order we have them up. I think it's debatable that Choice is really the best set around, and while Gardevoir can certainly pull off weather support or dual screens well, I'm not sold that they're better than Calm Mind sets. I'd also like to talk a little about offensive Calm Mind and defensive Calm Mind - I know a lot of people have been using SubCM Gardevoir lately (or at least had been, until Gothitelle came about). Is it better to have the spreads as they are on-site, or change the offensive one to Sub + Lefties, or get rid of the defensive one, or have a new set entirely (I'd prefer not to do that, but if it's a necessity we might have to)?
Although I appreciate the comments from the non-QC members, I'd really like to see QC posting in here more so I can get an overall grasp of what you guys think about this. Thanks!
A few people have brought up the issue of Gardevoirhttp://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/gardevoir's set ordering. It's got seven different sets with hugely different applications; the trouble is what order we have them up. I think it's debatable that Choice is really the best set around, and while Gardevoir can certainly pull off weather support or dual screens well, I'm not sold that they're better than Calm Mind sets. I'd also like to talk a little about offensive Calm Mind and defensive Calm Mind - I know a lot of people have been using SubCM Gardevoir lately (or at least had been, until Gothitelle came about). Is it better to have the spreads as they are on-site, or change the offensive one to Sub + Lefties, or get rid of the defensive one, or have a new set entirely (I'd prefer not to do that, but if it's a necessity we might have to)?
Although I appreciate the comments from the non-QC members, I'd really like to see QC posting in here more so I can get an overall grasp of what you guys think about this. Thanks!
hmm if I had to put the sets in order I would make it:
Offensive Calm Mind / Defensive Calm Mind / Choice / SubWisp / Support / Weather Support / Dual Screens
Primarily because I've never seen the last 2 sets used effectively ever, I'd rather use a bunch of other Pokemon to set up dual screens.
On the topic of SubCM: I think incorporating it into the Offensive Calm Mind set is the way to go, It isn't worthy of being its own set, so adding sub > shadow ball on offense should suffice. Or just giving substitute a slash.
Also, are weather support and dual screens worthy of being on there? I'm thinking no. They don't accomplish much of anything right now, at least the other sets can do something cool. Finally we should remvoed Stored Power form defensive calm mind. Stored Power is a weak move, and all it was sued for was beating quagsire. So please remove that :)
Offensive Calm Mind / Defensive Calm Mind / Choice / SubWisp / Support / Weather Support / Dual Screens
Primarily because I've never seen the last 2 sets used effectively ever, I'd rather use a bunch of other Pokemon to set up dual screens.
On the topic of SubCM: I think incorporating it into the Offensive Calm Mind set is the way to go, It isn't worthy of being its own set, so adding sub > shadow ball on offense should suffice. Or just giving substitute a slash.
Also, are weather support and dual screens worthy of being on there? I'm thinking no. They don't accomplish much of anything right now, at least the other sets can do something cool. Finally we should remvoed Stored Power form defensive calm mind. Stored Power is a weak move, and all it was sued for was beating quagsire. So please remove that :)
If Stored Power isn't on Musharna's analysis, then it shouldn't really be on Gardevoir's. And I think the Dual Screens set is worth keeping on site at least, because it's decently fast and gets the almost-unique and very helpful Healing Wish, which is a sufficient niche in my opinion. I used it a while ago to help out Gorebyss when it was so popular, and it's devestating giving a sweeper a second chance, perhaps even more so in this metagame with Zangoose. I'm less convinced about the weather supporter set, as most of the tiers weather sweepers are self-sustaining now, so I'd by happy to see it go.
I also think that Choice should still be the main set, as being a powerful and "fast" Psychic attacker straight off the bat is one of its selling points over Pokemon such as Musharna and Gothitelle. Although Calm Mind sets definitely have their merits in this metagame, they receive much more competition from Gothitelle now, so I'm happy with them remaining below Choice. Defensive Calm Mind in particular seems a little outclassed by Musharna, as Trace doesn't have a load of utility and Musharna has so much more physical bulk to throw around. This, combined with Gothitelle's presence in the tier means I'd probably never end up picking Gardevoir over something else for a Defensive Calm Mind set. Because of this, I think we should just keep an Offensive Calm Mind set, and make some minor alterations, perhaps into something like this?
name: Offensive Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Psychic
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Shadow Ball / Substitute
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Trace
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
In summary: Choice / Offensive CM / SubWisp / Support / Dual Screens would be my preferred set order.
I also think that Choice should still be the main set, as being a powerful and "fast" Psychic attacker straight off the bat is one of its selling points over Pokemon such as Musharna and Gothitelle. Although Calm Mind sets definitely have their merits in this metagame, they receive much more competition from Gothitelle now, so I'm happy with them remaining below Choice. Defensive Calm Mind in particular seems a little outclassed by Musharna, as Trace doesn't have a load of utility and Musharna has so much more physical bulk to throw around. This, combined with Gothitelle's presence in the tier means I'd probably never end up picking Gardevoir over something else for a Defensive Calm Mind set. Because of this, I think we should just keep an Offensive Calm Mind set, and make some minor alterations, perhaps into something like this?
name: Offensive Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Psychic
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Shadow Ball / Substitute
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Trace
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
In summary: Choice / Offensive CM / SubWisp / Support / Dual Screens would be my preferred set order.
Maybe it's just me but I thought that somehow a LO / EBelt attacker variant was probably the one that I faced the most... But whatever coverage it had 4th slot is probably inferior to CM so Offensive CM is probably the best, alongside Choice.
Defensive CM has little chance with Gothi around but objectively speaking it isn't too bad.
Gardy probably has the Dual Screen / Weather set because of Taunt, but really there's other things that can do it better. And...
Defensive CM has little chance with Gothi around but objectively speaking it isn't too bad.
Gardy probably has the Dual Screen / Weather set because of Taunt, but really there's other things that can do it better. And...
sued =(Raseri said:
Offensive Calm Mind and Choice are definitely the way to go for the best two sets. As for which is better, I am not really sure myself but either could go in the first spot. Defensive Calm Mind should probably be combined with offensive, especially with Gothitelle around. Weather support and dual screens are pretty average and can be done better (although Healing Wish is amazing) so they could be removed. SubWisp and support need an update, although I am not really sure on SubWisp. I've never seen it used and never used it so I can't relaly comment here.
I like Erisias ordering: Choice / Offensive CM / SubWisp / Support / Dual Screens
I like Erisias ordering: Choice / Offensive CM / SubWisp / Support / Dual Screens
I think SubWisp definitely deserves a spot on the analysis. It's one of the best ways for Gardevoir to deal with Skuntank, and as such it makes a good complement to CM Musharna and Gothitelle, luring it in and crippling it if it attempts to go for a kill. Even if Gardevoir dies in the process, Skuntank will be Burned and unable to kill Musharna and Gothitelle later on in the match, letting them secure sweeps more easily so long as they run two attacking moves. This double-Psychic combination seems extremely potent, and Gardevoir is pretty much the only Pokemon that can run a set like this, outside of the vastly less powerful Misdreavus, so it's definitely worthy of a spot imo.
Annoyer
=)~
Before Gothitelle was released, SubCM Gardevoir was really amazing since it could set-up on multiple walls without even having to invest in bulk, but now Gothitelle can basically do exactly that while not allowing the opponent to switch out. Because of that, Gardevoir shouldn't have a Defensively Calm Mind set. I'm not even sure if Substitute should be slashed but Gardevoir still has the advantage of being faster and more powerful. Picking whether the Choiced set or the Offensives CM set should be first is tough. I've used both sets and they're both great so I'm not sure yet.
I'm just overall not a fan of Dual Screens to be honest. I mainly am not really liking it because Gardevior is so physically frail that sometimes she may not have time to set up both screens. Being weak to Pursuit is also really bad for her because of this aspect, so then it is difficult for her to escape from Skuntank or something safetly even with Reflect up, so really, it just seems like a problem compared to other, bulkier Dual Screeners, both Psychic-types and other types. Also: "...you get the best offensive supporter NU has to offer" is too conclusive IMO, and if it is kept, it should be made a bit less so (one of the best, a great supporter, etc.)
Weather Supporters seem mediocre on everything, but Gardevoir looks OK with it. However, I don't like how it starts: "Gardevoir is the best weather supporter in NU." This is way conclusive to me. If it was the best, nobody would ever use anything else for weather, right?
I agree with no more Stored Power. Its just so weak...
I also agree with the ordering Erisa has, although I think Defensive Calm Mind should go before Support in that ordering rather than being excluded.
Weather Supporters seem mediocre on everything, but Gardevoir looks OK with it. However, I don't like how it starts: "Gardevoir is the best weather supporter in NU." This is way conclusive to me. If it was the best, nobody would ever use anything else for weather, right?
I agree with no more Stored Power. Its just so weak...
I also agree with the ordering Erisa has, although I think Defensive Calm Mind should go before Support in that ordering rather than being excluded.
Hello Neverused! I'm going to post something instead of Zebraiken.
Is Seadra worthy of an analysis still? It is decently powerful and is very physically bulky, but doesn't really have a niche since Alomomola has similar bulk, Regenerator, and Wish. Seadra can also use disable, but thats really about it. So my question for you is: Does Seadra possess enough of a niche to have an NU analysis? Or is it completely outclassed by Alomomola in todays metagame.
Is Seadra worthy of an analysis still? It is decently powerful and is very physically bulky, but doesn't really have a niche since Alomomola has similar bulk, Regenerator, and Wish. Seadra can also use disable, but thats really about it. So my question for you is: Does Seadra possess enough of a niche to have an NU analysis? Or is it completely outclassed by Alomomola in todays metagame.
Not really a QC member, but I think Seadra should stay (although the analysis could use a little reworking). Seadra has physical bulk comparable to Alomomola and functions as a more offensive version of said Pokemon. Base 85 Speed and 95 Special Attack aren't bad, and Disable also adds another facet of usefulness. The only issue I find with it is that Rest is listed as a main attack, when it definitely wouldn't work in the current metagame (way too much offense, Gothitelle, etc. being thrown around). It's definitely the most viable out of all the other Pokemon that have been mentioned in this thread, but viable enough to get its own analysis? I say yes.
EDIT: Seadra also has Clear Smog. It definitely needs to stay.
EDIT: Seadra also has Clear Smog. It definitely needs to stay.
breh
強いだね
I'd suggest somebody test Seadra out and see if there's anything interesting about it; for example, if you switch it in on Cinccino Tail Slap, it has a 83.193% chance of poisoning, which is pretty neat, IMO.
In any case, I can't see the onsite analysis being very good.
EDIT: er, the online set
In any case, I can't see the onsite analysis being very good.
EDIT: er, the online set
It's written well, it just seems like whoever wrote it was testing it against the bottom of the PS ladder.
EDIT: I mean, I highly doubt Rest + Disable is going to let you beat an Eelektross.
EDIT: I mean, I highly doubt Rest + Disable is going to let you beat an Eelektross.
The primary difference between Alomomola and Seadra is going to be that Speed difference and the extra SpA. Seadra will outspeed everything that uses Alomomola as a benchmark, 2HKOing Golurk, Emboar etc with Scald (Surf with a little bit of investment can always be an OHKO after SR on Emboar, while it'll really only 2HKO Golurk without maximum investment). Poison Point is a slight advantage, too, but being incredibly susceptible to Gothitelle (Seadra can't run Shed Shell without compromising its bulk, which is the whole point of using it) and being unable to have any recovery outside of Rest (while Alomo gets Wish, Regen, even Pain Split ffs) makes it really hard for me to justify an analysis. With what the current analysis intends to do, Alomomola is generally better than Seadra, and unless someone comes up with a different method of doing things with Seadra, I'd be hard-pressed to come up with a reason that it deserves the analysis that it has.
So you just want a somewhat different set that sets itself apart from Alomomola?
That would be ideal, yup.
I updated Gardevoir's sets to the following:
Offensive Calm Mind (with Substitute now slashed) / Choice / SubWisp / Support / Dual Screens
Defensive Calm Mind and Weather Support were removed.
Offensive Calm Mind (with Substitute now slashed) / Choice / SubWisp / Support / Dual Screens
Defensive Calm Mind and Weather Support were removed.
At this point I'm starting to think Seadra deserves a full revamp, the set onsite doesn't work very well in this metagame. Maybe a more offensive tank set could work? I'm unsure on the EVs right now, but Seadra has good special attack as well as defence. So utilizing both is the way to go in order to not be outclassed by Alomomola.
@zeb - I like that Gardevoir layout
@zeb - I like that Gardevoir layout
Having written the Seadra analysis back when I was starting out, I understand that the niche it had with the on-site set has pretty much evaporated with Alomomola getting Regenerator, and that the original set wasn't that good anyways. It's still analysis worthy for a few reasons, such as its FAR better offensive stats, niche support moves such as Disable and Clear Smog, and Poison Point, which set it apart from Alomomola. But any sets that go up definitely need to emphasize these attributes.
Hence, I think something like Substitute / Disable / Hydro Pump / Ice Beam would be cool, with 252 SpA / 252 Spe and Eviolite. With Clear Smog slashed with Disable or Ice Beam. Clear Smog is cool as it prevents CM Gothitelle from setting up on you, although tbh it probably 2HKOs with Psychic anyways -_-
Seadra needs to be re-imagined as an offensive tank rather than a defensive wall. I'd be happy to take over the revamp and give it another STAB if necessary, now that I understand more about the metagame and stuff in general.
Hence, I think something like Substitute / Disable / Hydro Pump / Ice Beam would be cool, with 252 SpA / 252 Spe and Eviolite. With Clear Smog slashed with Disable or Ice Beam. Clear Smog is cool as it prevents CM Gothitelle from setting up on you, although tbh it probably 2HKOs with Psychic anyways -_-
Seadra needs to be re-imagined as an offensive tank rather than a defensive wall. I'd be happy to take over the revamp and give it another STAB if necessary, now that I understand more about the metagame and stuff in general.
Thoughts on Sedra: Currently I feel its outclassed in just about everything it can do. As a defensive mon there is no doubt it is just a worse Alomomola, while offensively I would really not want to be giving up a teamslot that could be Samurott or Ludicolo, or hell even Gorebyss. Even Wartortle has Rapid Spin to give it some sort of niche. The only thing unique Sedra really has going for it would be Disable with something like what erisia posted, but I am really not convinced how good that set would be. Currently I would be in favour of removing the analysis, unless someone can convince me a disable set is worth having onsite.
Again, I know my opinion has less weight than most of the other posters in this thread, but erisia's idea is excellent.
OK, so what I take from this is that Seadra deserves to be on site, but not the set we have now. That's easy enough to fix.
And now, just for Keiran, I'd like to ask about Machoke. Machoke really struggles to compete with Gurdurr, who has more physical bulk, more Attack, STAB priority, and Drain Punch. The Machoke set on site utilizes RestTalk, a very poor combination on most Pokemon. I believe that the set on site is the best one, with a possible tweaking of EVs. But since there are people who want it posted here we shall discuss it!
Does Machoke deserve an analysis? If yes, does the analysis on site do it justice?
And now, just for Keiran, I'd like to ask about Machoke. Machoke really struggles to compete with Gurdurr, who has more physical bulk, more Attack, STAB priority, and Drain Punch. The Machoke set on site utilizes RestTalk, a very poor combination on most Pokemon. I believe that the set on site is the best one, with a possible tweaking of EVs. But since there are people who want it posted here we shall discuss it!
Does Machoke deserve an analysis? If yes, does the analysis on site do it justice?
I think Machoke's only niche was No Guard Dynamic Punch. So yeah, Golurk kinda shats all over that. He's completely outclassed by almost every other Fighting-type, especially Gurdurr.
k im just going to move on now. I'ld like Seadra to be added to the reservation index, erisia expressed interest in writing it so I guess let him reserve it for now.
Machoke doesn't suck enough to lose its analysis.
Now, Porygon. I don't see how what it would really do this metagame, as it is very physically best. Also, why was an Agility set passed? The defensive set may be salvageable but I'm not sold on the other 2 at all, so I want to hear your opinions on Porygon!
note: even if you aren't on QC feel free to post here, all intelligent opinions are valuable!
Machoke doesn't suck enough to lose its analysis.
Now, Porygon. I don't see how what it would really do this metagame, as it is very physically best. Also, why was an Agility set passed? The defensive set may be salvageable but I'm not sold on the other 2 at all, so I want to hear your opinions on Porygon!
note: even if you aren't on QC feel free to post here, all intelligent opinions are valuable!