Updated Ubers Threat List

[Jibaku]

Well that's a really big wall of post you got there, and while it's informative I would like for you (and everyone else really) to tone it down to keep the environment friendly. In particular, we don't need the immense use of bolding because that's just plain obnoxious.

@Ranking: Honestly...why are we discussing ladder rankings? That is irrelevant to the topic at hand and is really a shady way to determine a player's skill. I could mention all my laddering accomplishments but really, it would only serve as a way to inflate ego...

4. Since chances are Kyurem-W will be fully paralyzed eventually, Lugia can indeed Roost against Choice Specs Kyurem-W's Ice Beams, unless it's very unlucky.

And then what? Lugia can't phaze it out because it would risk getting hit by a full blown Ice Beam in the face (which, yes, OHKOes Lugia cleanly from 100%). The moment Lugia reaches to full health and Kyurem-W is paralyzed, then it's forced to switch out or risk dying.

Modest Specs Ice Beam vs 252 HP Lugia: 103%-121.6%

2. Read my very first paragraph in this post, in which I addressed firecape. Is paralyzing the opponent's Calm Mind Mewtwo before Whirlwinding it away so Life Orb Ho-Oh or Choice Specs Kyogre can outrun it and safely pick it off later in the match without having to take a Psystrike first not support? Is paralyzing the opponent's Dragon Dance Rayquaza and Whirlwinding it out so any dragon regardless of its Speed can safely finish it later not support? Is paralyzing Latios so Ho-Oh can outrun and KO it with a single Life Orb Brave Bird without having to take a Draco Meteor, Psyshock or Thunderbolt/Thunder first not support? Given the ease with which Lugia can simply Thunder Wave something before Whirlwinding it out, thanks to its Multiscale and supreme bulk, I'd say that Lugia is one excellent supporter. Its support does may not take the form of Stealth Rock or Spikes or Toxic Spikes or Rapid Spin or Spin-blocking or Heal Bell/Aromatherapy or Wish... but it is still equally excellent.

And this is why I placed Lugia in tier 1, but it still remains that stall does not require Lugia to function properly, whereas entry hazards/spinblocking/Wish are essential. The problem with paralysis support from Lugia is that the most common way to stop it is to use defensive Pokemon who don't care about paralysis at all. Stuff like Forretress would gladly take TWave from Lugia to avoid getting burned by Giratina and friends. Not that Thunder Wave is a not a good choice, but as a supporting move it's not quite as universal. Speaking of which, most Lugia stoppers don't care about Toxic either.

If any offensive Pokemon should deserve its own tier, it's Kyogre, because while it is powerful in itself, it can also share its power with the rest of the team due to Drizzle. It's the Pokemon that makes Kabutops, Manaphy, Kingdra and Thunder strong choices in Ubers, and Omastar, Tornadus-T, and Jynx viable. Then there are also defensive implications of Drizzle but that isn't really a big part to the offensive tier list.

 

[Pokémon Trainer R]

Well that's a really big wall of post you got there, and while it's informative I would like for you (and everyone else really) to tone it down to keep the environment friendly. In particular, we don't need the immense use of bolding because that's just plain obnoxious.

Well, I'm sorry. The reason I bolded so many parts of my previous post was because my paragraphs were long, so I felt that bolding all the parts on which I emphasized would be an effective means of allowing others to understand my thoughts more easily, as they would see which parts of each paragraph are important or needs to be emphasized. But OK, I understand that it may appear unfriendly, so I won't do that anymore :)

@Ranking: Honestly...why are we discussing ladder rankings? That is irrelevant to the topic at hand and is really a shady way to determine a player's skill. I could mention all my laddering accomplishments but really, it would only serve as a way to inflate ego...

Yeah, I guess. In my first post in this thread, when I posted my modified version of your tier list, I just typed the first sentence in that post (in which I used my #1 position on Pokémon Showdown's Ubers ladder to justify my own qualification for making my own tier list) entirely for fun, just because I thought it sounded cool and looked aesthetically awesome to my eyes. Then others who replied to this thread responded to that sentence of mine seriously, and I myself ended up getting carried away too with that discussion. But yeah, we should end this discussion.

And then what? Lugia can't phaze it out because it would risk getting hit by a full blown Ice Beam in the face (which, yes, OHKOes Lugia cleanly from 100%). The moment Lugia reaches to full health and Kyurem-W is paralyzed, then it's forced to switch out or risk dying.

Modest Specs Ice Beam vs 252 HP Lugia: 103%-121.6%

True, I would switch to Ho-Oh after Lugia gets back to full health. Still though, you have to admit that the ability to Roost-loop a Choice Specs-holding Pokémon's Same Type Attack Bonus, super effective Ice Beam coming from 170 base Special Attack, which also has an Ability that negates Multiscale, with only paralysis support, and using that Pokémon as fodder for healing oneself in order to have Multiscale intact the next time it comes in... is absolutely insane :o

And this is why I placed Lugia in tier 1, but it still remains that stall does not require Lugia to function properly, whereas entry hazards/spinblocking/Wish are essential. The problem with paralysis support from Lugia is that the most common way to stop it is to use defensive Pokemon who don't care about paralysis at all. Stuff like Forretress would gladly take TWave from Lugia to avoid getting burned by Giratina and friends. Not that Thunder Wave is a not a good choice, but as a supporting move it's not quite as universal. Speaking of which, most Lugia stoppers don't care about Toxic either.

Yes, but non-stall teams appreciate defense as well. And from my experience, Lugia is an excellent Pokémon that one can just throw into a bulky offense team, and simply use it as a quick and cheap way to immediately have a solid answer to Palkia, Mewtwo lacking Taunt, Latias, Latios, Rayquaza, offensive Groudon, and many other threats. Actually, this is what my team basically does, and it works wonder. No other Pokémon can serve this purpose anywhere near as effectively, which is why I place Lugia in a tier of its own at the top, in terms of defense. Yes, people can just switch defensive Pokémon into Lugia... but look at all the benefits just one Pokémon brings to the table. Look how many threats you can have covered just because your team has Lugia. This Pokémon's pros far eclipse its cons.

If any offensive Pokemon should deserve its own tier, it's Kyogre, because while it is powerful in itself, it can also share its power with the rest of the team due to Drizzle. It's the Pokemon that makes Kabutops, Manaphy, Kingdra and Thunder strong choices in Ubers, and Omastar, Tornadus-T, and Jynx viable. Then there are also defensive implications of Drizzle but that isn't really a big part to the offensive tier list.

Kyogre's Drizzle should only be considered as a form of "offense" insofar as that it increases Kyogre's own power though (basically, powering up its Water-type moves and giving its Thunder perfect accuracy). The benefits Drizzle gives to other Pokémon is something that should instead go under the yet-to-be-created Support Tier List, which Mr.lol previously suggested (and I agree that one should definitely be made).

 

[bygbyrd]

I have to agree with PTR that Lugia is the best defensive pokemon simply because it can wall so many high-level threats pretty much by itself. Wanting rocks off the field is a huge downside but it can still stand in the face LO Mewtwo's ice beam after rocks, para it, and roost up; that's an impressive endeavor.

However anyone's opinion on "the best" defensive or offensive pokemon is negligible because there's really no point in having a tier for one pokemon. It would look rather silly like this:

Tier 1

Arceus Normal

[Paragraph]

Tier Two

Kyogre

[Paragraph]

Groudon

Maybe that example wasn't nessasary but you see the point I'm making. Whether you call it Tier One or not, Arceus can be placed as the first offensive threat with the paragraph explaining how WoW and para are shaky ways to check it and that every team should prepare for it, etc. The point of a threat list is to show the threat itself and how/why it is so threatening. That is where the paragraph comes in. That's the important part. Also, I feel that calling the other threats Tier Two and so on undermines how much of a threat they are. If you feel like Arceus is the best, thats fine. But as far as a threat list is concerned, he is in the same catagorey as Kyogre, Rayquaza, and the like.

I support a support tier (terrible pun intended), as it can show the difference between defensive behemoths and team supporters. You would have pokemon on the thread twice, but that's not really a problem. Since there are few discrepancies between who goes where and what pokemon should be on the list, I'd love to see this start to come together. I'm more than willing to do some paragraphs if you all want some help.

 

[locoghoul]

This is the first page of the DW Ubers ladder on the Pokémon Online server...

I stopped reading after this. DW Ubers is actually less competitive on PO, but if you wanted a cookie for your laddering accomplishments, you can have one.

 

[ssbbm]

True, I would switch to Ho-Oh after Lugia gets back to full health. Still though, you have to admit that the ability to Roost-loop a Choice Specs-holding Pokémon's Same Type Attack Bonus, super effective Ice Beam coming from 170 base Special Attack, which also has an Ability that negates Multiscale, with only paralysis support, and using that Pokémon as fodder for healing oneself in order to have Multiscale intact the next time it comes in... is absolutely insane :o

you really only will be able to roost loop if lugia is already damaged: assuming kyurem-w comes in on a full health lugia (because you are not going to switch lugia in on kyurem-w..) kyurem-w wins 100%

 

[Pokémon Trainer R]

I have temporarily removed all the contents of my post at the bottom of the first page of this thread, as upon viewing it a second time just now, I have realized that my tone throughout almost the entirety of that message, especially in combination with the excessive bolding that Jibaku pointed out previously, looked extremely unfriendly, impatient, and possibly even impolite (even when Jibaku pointed that out to me before, despite responding to his post with agreement, I actually still didn't realize exactly how bad it was at the time, until I reread that post today). I didn't really mean to come off in such a way, so I apologize if I have offended or intimidated anyone with that previous post. At the time when I posted that message, I had returned home after a long day at University (I left home at 8:00am, and returned at 6:00pm), and was additionally rather overwhelmed both by the sheer number of arguments I had to address in this thread (I guess I should have expected such, as I knew that my tier lists were controversial), and also the fact that several people I addressed in that message didn't seem to understand exactly what I was saying in the post before that, despite the fact that I remember going to a lot of effort to explain things as precisely as possible. Especially since I was tired and therefore not in the best mood, I went overboard in deliberately placing a huge amount of emphasis and stress upon various important points that I wanted to convey (with the subconscious desire to make others understand my arguments as quickly and easily as possible so I wouldn't have to clarify things as much in the future, because I was tired as I said), completely unaware at the time of how unsightly the message turned out as a result. I'll edit that post of mine and repost the information contained in it in a much calmer and friendlier way later when I have time, but if anyone wishes to see the original contents of that message for any reason, such as if they wish to address some of the arguments contained in it in order to contribute to the discussion in this thread, then feel free to private message me :)

 

[trickroom]

I just listed down all the sets according to Jibaku's list. This will be later updated into the Ubers RMT section as the new Ubers threat list. Since the OU tier has a threat list that lists all the sets, I think Ubers should have one too.

Offensive Tier List

Tier 1
Kyogre
-Choice Specs
-Choice Scarf
-Thunder Wave
-Calm Mind RestTalk
-Calm Mind + 3 attacks
-Sleep Talk + Roar
-Chesto Rest Calm Mind

Arceus-Normal
-Swords Dance
-Choice Band

Arceus-Ghost
-Calm Mind
-Swords Dance

Mewtwo
-Calm Mind +3 Attacks
-Recover + 3 Attacks
-Substitute Calm Mind
-All Out Attacker
-Choice Scarf

Palkia
-Specially Offensive Lustrous Orb
-Choice Scarf
-Choice Specs
-Haban Berry
-Mixed

Dialga
-Choice Specs
-Mixed
-Choice Scarf
-Bulk Up

Groudon
-Rock Polish
-Double Booster
-Earth Plate/Life Orb + SR
-Swords Dance + Thunder Wave
-Choice Band

Kyurem-W
-Choice Specs
-Choice Scarf
-Life Orb 3 Attacks + Roost

Arceus-Ground
-Swords Dance
-Calm Mind

Latios
-Calm Mind
-All Out Attacker
-Dual Screens

Latias
-Offensive Calm Mind
-Bulky Calm Mind

Ho-Oh
-Tank
-Offensive Flame Charge
-Choice Scarf
-Choice Band

Rayquaza
-Dragon Dance
-Mixed
-Mixed Dancer
-Swords Dance
-Choice Scarf
-Choice Band

Darkrai
-Nasty Plot
-Mono Attacker + Sub
-Choice Scarf
-Focus Sash

Arceus-Fighting
-Calm Mind

Tier 2
Giratina-O
-Mixed Dragon Tail
-Calm Mind + Sub
-Calm Mind RestTalk
-3 Attacks + Sub

Zekrom
-Choice Band
-Mixed
-Choice Scarf
-Hone Claws

Reshiram
-Choice Specs
-Choice Scarf
-Sunny Day
-Sub / Roost +3 Attacks

Deoxys-A
-Focus Sash
-Life Orb Attacker

Shaymin-S
-Sub Seed
-Life Orb + Growth
-Choice Scarf
-Choice Specs

Terrakion
-Choice Scarf
-Swords Dance + Rock Polish
-Choice Band

Excadrill
-Bulky Attacker
-Sand Rush abuse

Arceus-Steel
-Calm Mind

Arceus-Dark
-Calm Mind mono Attacker

Arceus-Electric
-Calm Mind

Gyarados
-Taunt Support
-Choice Band
-Choice Scarf
-Sleep Talk + Dragon Dance
-Muscular Carp
-Offensive Dragon Dance
-Bulldoze + Dragon Tail
-Thunder Wave Flinch abuse
-Triple Status ( Scald + Thunder Wave + Toxic)
-Angry Fishy ( Outrage )

Kabutops
-Swords Dance
-3 Attacks + Rapid Spin
Choice Band

Garchomp
-Swords Dance + Sub sand abuse
-Choice Band
-Choice Scarf
-Haban Berry + Swords Dance

Blaziken
-Swords Dance
-Roar + SD

Tyranitar
-Choice Band
-Tank

Arceus-Dragon
-Swords Dance
-Calm Mind
-Calm Mind + Sub / Refresh

Salamence
-Scarf Moxie
-Dragon Dance

Kingdra
-Rain Mixed
-Rain Physically based mixed
-Choice Specs

Mamoswine
-Life Orb Attacker
-Lead Focus Sash

Kyurem-B
-Mixed
-Choice Band
-Choice Scarf
-Hone Claws

Genesect
-Choice Scarf
-Choice Band
-3 Attacks + Explosion
-Rock Polish

Tier 3
Thundurus
-Nasty Plot
-Thunder Wave Focus Sash

Arceus-Grass
-Calm Mind

Arceus-Rock
-Swords Dance
-Calm Mind
-Mono Attacker

Arceus-Water
-Calm Mind
-Swords Dance
-Mono + Refresh

Arceus-Fire
-Calm Mind

Venusaur
-Life Orb Specially Offensive Growth
-Mixed

Metagross
-Choice Band
-Stealth Rock +3 Attacks

Scizor
-Choice Band
-Roost +3 Attacks

Cloyster
-Shell Smash
Smeargle

Gorebyss
-Smash Pass

Manaphy
-Tail Glow
-Calm Mind
-Staller

Arceus-Ice
-Calm Mind

Arceus-Psychic
-Calm Mind

Tornadus-T
-Standard Life Orb + U-turn
-Choice Specs

Landorus
-Swords Dance
-Rock Polish
-Mixed

Lugia
-Offensive Calm Mind

Giratina
-Calm Mind + Chesto Berry
-Calm Mind RestTalk

Landorus-T
-Swords Dance + Sub

Magnezone
-Standard Sub + Charge Beam
-Choice Specs

Tier 4
Thundurus-T
-Nasty Plot

Tornadus
-Tailwind + 3 Attacks
-Choice Specs

Hydreigon
-Choice Scarf

Abomasnow
-Standard Tank

Arceus-Flying
-Calm Mind

Shiftry
-Nasty Plot

Omastar
-Shell Smash

Jynx
-Nasty Plot + Sub

Ludicolo
-Special Attacker

Victini
-Choice Scarf
-Choice Band
-Trick Room abuse

Heracross
-Choice Scarf

Arceus-Poison
-Calm Mind

Arceus-Bug
-Calm Mind
-Swords Dance

Bisharp
-Swords Dance
-Bulky Swords Dance + Low Sweep

Dugtrio
-Hone Claws Trapper

Gengar
-Choice Scarf

Tier 5
Deoxys
-Lead + Sash
-Life Orb Attacker

Lucario
-Swords Dance
-Nasty Plot

Shedinja
-Focus Sash


Defensive Tier List:

Tier 1
Ferrothorn
-Standard Leech Seed + Spikes

Groudon
-Physical Wall
-Specially Defensive

Lugia
-Great Wall #1 ( Reflect )
-Sub Toxic
-Specially Defensive
-Calm Mind

Giratina
-Great Wall #2
-Specially Defensive
-Calm Mind

Dialga
-Support

Blissey
-Standard Wish
-Fire Blast + Softboiled

Chansey
-Standard
-Physically Defensive

Forretress
-Standard Spikes + Spin

Arceus-Ghost
-Support
-Calm Mind

Arceus-Steel
-Calm Mind
-Support

Arceus-Grass
-Support

Latias
-Calm Mind
-Bulky Calm Mind

Kyogre
-Fat Choice Scarf
-RestTalk + Roar Scald
-Calm Mind Sleep Talk

Giratina-O
-Mixed
-Double Phazer
-Physically Defensive Will-O-Wisp

Tier 2
Arceus-Ground
-Support
-Physically Defensive
-Swords Dance

Gyarados - Most versatile wall ever, no contest.
-Taunt Support
-Choice Scarf
-Waterfall + 3 Attacks
-Sub Dragon Tail
-Defensive Scald
-Sleep Talk + Dragon Dance
-Muscular Carp
-Bulldoze + Dragon Tail
-Thunder Wave Flinch ( Waterfall + Headbutt + Iron Head ) abuse
-Triple Status ( Scald + Thunder Wave + Toxic)

Skarmory
-Standard Spikes

Gliscor
-Sub Toxic

Jirachi
-Standard Wish
-Choice Scarf

Excadrill
-Bulky Attacker

Tentacruel
-Tank + Scald
-Acupressure

Heatran
-Tank + Taunt
-Choice Scarf

Ho-Oh
-Standard Tank
-Physically Defensive
-Bulky Scarf

Tyranitar
-Specially Defensive Tank

Arceus-Fighting
-Utility Counter

Arceus-Poison
-Support

Arceus-Rock
-Support

Palkia
-Choice Scarf
-Dragon Tail + 3 Attacks

Tier 3
Arceus-Water
-Sun Support

Arceus-Normal
-Arceus Physical Wall

Arceus-Psychic
-Specially Defensive

Arceus-Dark
-Specially Defensive

Landorus-T
-Stealth Rock + U-Turn

Metagross
-Tank

Mewtwo
-StallTwo

Cresselia
-Lunar Dance + Dual Screens
-Physically Defensive
-Specially Defensive

Hippowdon
-Physical Wall

Xatu
-Standard

Tier 4
Gastrodon
-Standard Tank

Whimsicott
-Standard SubSeed

Jumpluff
-Sun SubSeed

Venusaur
-Sub Seed + Sludge Bomb

Deoxys-D
-Agility + Taunt
-Support Spikes

Ludicolo
-SubSeed Rain Dish

Tier 5
Parasect
-Dry Skin + Leech Seed
-Spore Attacker
-Choice Band
-Occa Berry + Swords Dance

Bad Pokemon that currently have analyses. Except for Gyarados - he's just there because of trickroom, so I am listing all the viable Gyarados sets. Don't listen to Jibaku, Gyarados will one day conquer the Ubers tier again. I am sure by late December, the ladder will be infested with hungry Gyaradoses due to its versatility and access to Brave Bird one day.

Oh if possible, can Furai/Poppy/Barry please add in the sprites and summit this threat list to Bloo / any other RMT moderator in charge of the RMT threat list section? Too long don't read, I am too busy and lazy to add in all the sprites at the moment.

 

[hamiltonion]

DERP -________________-

Gyarados
-Taunt Support
-Choice Band
-Choice Scarf
-Defensive Scald
-Sleep Talk + Dragon Dance
-Muscular Carp
-Bulldoze + Dragon Tail
-Thunder Wave Flinch abuse
-Triple Status ( Scald + Thunder Wave + Toxic)

Tier 5
Parasect
-Dry Skin + Leech Seed
-Spore Attacker
-Choice Band
-Occa Berry + Swords Dance

Just saying that while i mostly agree with the above, I have a minor qualm. Physically defensive Groudon shouldn't be that high on the defensive list since its not a very good physical wall now as its slightly weak without investment and can be wiped out by anything with a strong special move. It can just postpone most physical attacker sweeps anyway tbh except for some like Zekro.

 

[trickroom]

There's one problem. Groudon brings the sun and that alone is a huge bonus to any stall team. We are not just rating base on sheer bulk or recovery to check threats repeatedly. Its more of what it brings and provides the team.

In Groudon's case, a weather changer, and yes its that important, otherwise Kyogre + Manaphy or even Kabutops in certain cases will run over stall teams easily. Setting up Stealth Rock is just as a bonus. Thanks to Drought, Groudon can immediately OHKO Forretress after Sturdy breaks and Ferrothorn. Others such as Ground Arceus and even offensive walls such as Ghost Arceus struggles to do so. Since weather changes a lot in Ubers, Groudon is really a level above other walls in terms of Support. Well lack of recovery sucks, but Rayquaza is still checked by Groudon through Dragon Tail and Groudon can abuse entry hazard with it. Groudon immediately wrecks some dangerous physical attackers though so that's still something. Stone Edge kills Ho-Oh (you need to outrun it), Rayquaza, Kyurem-B. Earthquake smashes Zekrom, Tyranitar and Excadrill.

Also, Jibaku rated Groudon in that exact position. I just followed it

 

[hamiltonion]

There's one problem. Groudon brings the sun and that alone is a huge bonus to any stall team. We are not just rating base on sheer bulk or recovery to check threats repeatedly. Its more of what it brings and provides the team.

In Groudon's case, a weather changer, and yes its that important, otherwise Kyogre + Manaphy or even Kabutops in certain cases will run over stall teams easily. Setting up Stealth Rock is just as a bonus. Thanks to Drought, Groudon can immediately OHKO Forretress after Sturdy breaks and Ferrothorn. Others such as Ground Arceus and even offensive walls such as Ghost Arceus struggles to do so.

While, Drought is indeed a major asset for Groudon, you're missing my point. What i wanted to note is that apart from bringing in Drought, Groudon isn't stellar in physical walling except in certain specific departments. I was just wondering why its above stuff like Giratina / Lugia / Defensive Ogre. Also why are we restricting the defensive list only to stall :/, balanced teams need the occasional bulky pivot as well (lets not devolve into an arguement about team nomenclature)

 

[trickroom]

Then you have to ask Jibaku why he put Groudon ahead of Lugia and Giratina as walls. Well Giratina has a nasty Dragon-type weakness which is horrible, although the resistances help a lot. To be fair both Kyogre and Giratina lack reliable recovery too, as they have to depend on Rest.

Most balanced teams still love Groudon more than Lugia though because Groudon can still hit decently hard, stops Spikes users and kills Rapid Spinners.

Let's just say Groudon is a physical tank that provides a lot of support to most teams, more than Lugia can. In terms of pure walling and phazing, Lugia is usually better :)

 

[bygbyrd]

Small nitpick I don't think Mewtwo needs an "all out attacker" set as you can just slash CM with coverage moves. Terrakions Taunt/Sub and SD should be in there, as it beats Roar and Dragon Tail Giritina, respectively.

 

[asterat]

I would switch hippowdown and excadrill for defensives. I would also make gliscor tier 1.

 

[Superimp]

Newly Formatted Ubers Threat List

I just listed down all the sets according to Jibaku's list. This will be later updated into the Ubers RMT section as the new Ubers threat list. Since the OU tier has a threat list that lists all the sets, I think Ubers should have one too.

(...)

Oh if possible, can Furai/Poppy/Barry please add in the sprites and summit this threat list to Bloo / any other RMT moderator in charge of the RMT threat list section? Too long don't read, I am too busy and lazy to add in all the sprites at the moment.

The Ubers Threat List has now been fully formatted for implementation into the Ubers RMT section. All sprites have been implemented. Missing Pokemon such as Bronzong and Qwilfish have been implemented. All Pokemon have been updated whenever possible with standard, official sets. For more details on the differences between this threat list and the previous, please check the comments of this document.

Anyway, here is the threat list for final discussion, tweaks, etc. from everyone before it is hopefully PMed to a RMT moderator in charge of the RMT threat list section in the next few days. In particular, discussion on what to do with the Miscellaneous Threats might be beneficial.

Thanks go to trickroom for providing the base of the threat list as well as informative comments/feedback! Thanks also go to Jibaku and Poppy for their original threat lists, as well as anyone who contributed to the threat lists.

-------------------------------------​

Standard Ubers Offensive Threats

Tier 1: The premier threats of the Uber metagame. They must be accounted for in every team, as they will dominate singlehandedly unless met with significant resistance.

Arceus

• Extreme Killer (Swords Dance) -
• Bandceus (Choice Band) -

Arceus-Ghost

• Calm Mind -
• Swords Dance -

Darkrai

• Special Sweeper -
• Choice Scarf -
• Double Status -

Dialga

• Special Attacker -
• Mixed -
• Bulk Up + RestTalk -
• Choice Scarf -

Groudon

• Rock Polish -
• Paradancer -
• Choice Band -
• Offensive Stealth Rock -

Ho-Oh

• Tank -
• Choice Band -
• Physical Sweeper -
• Choice Scarf -

Kyogre

• Choice Specs -
• Choice Scarf -
• Offensive -
• RestTalk -
• Water Gem Lure -
• Bulky Booster -

Kyurem-W

• Choice Specs -
• Burning Red White Kyurem (Choice-less) -
• Choice Scarf -

Latias

• All-Out Attacker -
• Defensive Calm Mind -
• Offensive Pivot -

Latios

• All-Out Attacker -
• Calm Mind -
• Special Dragon Dance -

Mewtwo

• Psycho Killer -
• Bulky Booster -
• Choice Scarf -

Palkia

• Choice Scarf -
• Specially Based Mix -
• Choice Specs -
• Blissey Boxer -
• Physically Based Mix -

Rayquaza

• Dragon Dance -
• Mixed Attacker -
• Mixed Dancer -
• Swords Dance -
• Choice Scarf -
• Choice Band -

Tier 2: The major threats of the Uber metagame. While alone they are not as dominating as Tier 1 threats, combined with a little team support, they can be downright terrifying in their own right.

Arceus-Dark

• Calm Mind -

Arceus-Dragon

• Swords Dance -
• Calm Mind -

Arceus-Electric

• Calm Mind -

Arceus-Fighting

• Calm Mind -

Arceus-Ground

• Calm Mind -
• Swords Dance -

Arceus-Steel

• Calm Mind -
• Swords Dance -

Blaziken

• Swords Dance -

Deoxys-A

• Focus Sash Attacker -
• Sash Lead -
• Life Orb -

Excadrill

• Bulky -
• Offensive -

Garchomp

• Choice Scarf -
• Swords Dance -
• Choice Band -
• Substitute + Swords Dance -

Genesect

• Physically Based Choice Scarf -
• Specially Based Choice Scarf -
• Special Attacker -
• Choice Band -

Giratina-O

• Mixed Attacker -
• SubCM -
• Sleeping Beauty (Mono-Attacker) -
• Substitute Shuffler -
• Offensive Calm Mind -

Kabutops

• Cleaner -
• Choice Band -

Kingdra

• Mixed Attacker -
• Dragon Dance -
• Choice Specs -

Kyurem-B

• Choice Band -
• Mixed -
• Choice Scarf -
• Hone Claws -

Mamoswine

• Physical Attacker -

Reshiram

• Choice Specs -
• Offensive -
• Flame Charge -
• SubRoost -
• Sunny Day -
• Choice Scarf -

Shaymin-S

• SubSeed -
• Choice Scarf -
• Special Sweeper -
• Choice Specs -

Terrakion

• Choice Scarf -
• Double Dancer -
• Choice Band -
• Substitute + Swords Dance -

Tyranitar

• Tank -
• Choice Band -

Zekrom

• Mixed -
• Choice Band -
• Choice Scarf -
• Substitute + Hone Claws -
• Tailwind -

Tier 3: The minor threats of the Uber metagame. More situational and less potent than Tier 2 threats, but when combined with a lot of team support, they can be quite frightening.

Arceus-Fire

• Calm Mind -

Arceus-Grass

• Calm Mind -

Arceus-Ice

• Calm Mind -

Arceus-Psychic

• Calm Mind -

Arceus-Rock

• Mono-Attacker -
• Offensive Calm Mind -
• Swords Dance -

Arceus-Water

• Swords Dance -
• Offensive Calm Mind -
• Defensive Calm Mind -

Cloyster

• Shell Smash -
• Offensive Support -

Heatran

• Choice Scarf -

Giratina

• Boosting Tank -
• Chesto Rest -

Gorebyss

• Smash Pass -

Jirachi

• Choice Scarf -

Landorus

• Swords Dance -
• Choice Scarf -

Landorus-T

• SubSD -
• Double Dance -
• Choice Band -

Lugia

• Calm Mind -

Magnezone

• SubCharge -
• Choice Specs -
• Dual Screens -

Manaphy

• Calm Mind -
• Tail Glow -

Metagross

• Choice Band -

Omastar

• Shell Smash -

Salamence

• Choice Scarf -
• Dragon Dance -

Scizor

• Choice Band -
• Swords Dance -
• Specially Defensive -

Thundurus

• Prankster -
• Nasty Plot -

Tornadus-T

• Life Orb Attacker -
• Choice Specs -

Venusaur

• Special Growth -
• Mixed Growth -

Tier 4: The lesser threats of the Uber metagame. They usually cover a specific niche and are mediocre otherwise.

Arceus-Bug

• Calm Mind -
• Swords Dance -

Arceus-Flying

• Calm Mind -

Arceus-Poison

• Calm Mind -

Beartic

• Swords Dance -

Bisharp

• Swords Dance -

Bronzong

• Trickroom -
• Choice Band -

Dugtrio

• Substitute + Hone Claws -

Espeon

• Focus Sash Attacker -

Ferrothorn

• Choice Band -

Heracross

• Choice Scarf -
• Choice Band -

Hydreigon

• Choice Scarf -

Jynx

• Nasty Plot -

Keldeo

• Calm Mind -
• Attacking Lead -

Ludicolo

• Rain Sweeper -

Qwilfish

• Support -
• Swords Dance -

Shiftry

• Special Sweeper -

Thundurus-T

• All-Out Attacker -

Tornadus

• Tailwind -

Victini

• Choice Scarf -
• Choice Band -
• Trickroom -

Tier 5: The trivial threats of the Uber metagame. They pose little threat unless backed with ridiculous team support.

Shedinja

• Wall -
• Swords Dance -

Standard Ubers Defensive Threats

Tier 1: The premier threats of the Uber metagame. They provide considerable utility and cover a wide range of threats unless they are adequately dealt with.

Arceus-Ghost

• Calm Mind -
• Support -

Arceus-Grass

• Calm Mind -
• Support -

Arceus-Steel

• Calm Mind -
• Support -

Blissey

• Support -

Chansey

• Support -

Dialga

• Defensive -

Ferrothorn

• Support -

Forretress

• Support -

Giratina

• Great Wall -
• Specially Defensive -

Giratina-O

• Mixed Attacker -
• RestTalk Shuffler -

Groudon

• Support -

Kyogre

• RestTalk -

Latias

• Defensive Calm Mind -
• Specially Defensive -

Lugia

• Great Wall -
• Calm Mind -

Skarmory

• Support -

Tier 2: The major threats of the Uber metagame. While they are not as supportive or bulky as Tier 1 threats, they are still quite potent in their own right.

Arceus

• Wallceus (Physical Wall) -

Arceus-Fighting

• Utility Counter -

Arceus-Ground

• Support -

Arceus-Poison

• Support -

Arceus-Rock

• Mono-Attacker -

Arceus-Water

• Defensive Calm Mind -
• Sun Support -

Excadrill

• Bulky -

Gliscor

• Substitute -

Heatran

• Stallbreaker -

Ho-Oh

• Tank -
• Physically Defensive -

Jirachi

• Specially Defensive -

Landorus-T

• Defensive -

Tentacruel

• Support -

Tyranitar

• Tank -
• Choice Band -

Tier 3: The minor threats of the Uber metagame. More situational and less potent than Tier 2 threats, but are still quite effective.

Arceus-Dark

• Support -

Arceus-Psychic

• Utility Counter -

Bronzong

• Tank -

Cresselia

• Lunar Dance + Dual Screens -
• Wall -

Deoxys-D

• Agility + Taunt -
• Utility Wall -

Hippowdon

• Physical Wall -

Metagross

• Choice Band -

Mewtwo

• StallTwo -

Palkia

• Choice Scarf -

Scizor

• Specially Defensive -

Xatu

• Dual Screens -

Tier 4: The lesser threats of the Uber metagame. They usually cover a specific niche and are mediocre otherwise.

Abomasnow

• Leech Seed -

Gastrodon

• Tank -

Gyarados

• Tauntrados -

Jumpluff

• Support -
• SubSeed -

Ludicolo

• SubSeed -

Whimsicott

• SubSeed -

Tier 5: The trivial threats of the Uber metagame. They pose little threat unless backed with ridiculous team support.

Shedinja

• Wall -
• Swords Dance -

Standard Ubers Miscellaneous Threats

Deoxys

• Offensive Dual Screens -

Deoxys-S

• Suicide Lead -
• Dual Screens -
• Choice Scarf -

Ditto

• Imposter -

Forretress

• Custap Lead -

Froslass

• Spikes -

Latios

• Dual Screens -

Skarmory

• Custap Lead -

Smeargle

• Smash Pass -
• Lv 1 FEAR -

Wobbuffet

• OH NO, IT’S WOBBA! -

 

[lousy918]

Actually, now that Ditto has Imposter, it should be up there somewhere, maybe Tier 1 or 2. (I'd prefer it to be banned, but oh well).

And I disagree with Gyarados, Kyogre has better speed despite not being a part Flying-type.

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

Hippowdon's problem is that there are very few things it can outspeed and Recover on, meaning you have to be very careful with monitoring its HP.

Excadrill, while not strictly better defensively does a lot more, it can also lay SR, spin, and have good offensive presence allowing it to check important Pokemon like Dialga in the rain and some variants of Latias.

Gliscor is in tier 2 because while it has great utility defensively speaking it can't stop that many threats unless it already has a sub up. It's really good, sure, but I wouldn't place it in the same tier with things like Lugia and Arceus.

Deoxys-D should be moved up from Tier 4 to Tier 3 IMO, it can lay down Spikes and Wall Mewtwo, while also pseudo-stall breaking with Toxic + Taunt. Better than Gastrodon.

Lando-T should be moved up from Tier 3 to Tier 2 defensively, it can check ExtremeKiller in a pinch Toxic things, be reasonably fast, have U-turn, Stealth Rock, etc. Ground and Fighting resistances / immunities are great.

Jirachi should be tier 1 defensively, being an excellent response to Latias and Mewtwo in rain, in addition to being a good Kyurem-W and most CM Arceus Formes check AND having the ability to set up Stealth Rock.

Palkia should be tier 3 defensively, it's pretty damn frail and it can't really switch in on anything with a guarantee as Kyogre can still smack it with Thunder.

Arceus Water should be tier 2 defensively, it checks a considerable amount of sun threats like Ho-Oh, Reshiram, and Kyurem-W while also providing a Water-type resistance for rain teams.

Tornadus-I should be tier 3 offensively, it is the best user of Prankster Tailwind with the ability to abuse it itself, STAB Hurricane and a decent base 125 SpA is pretty good.

Salamence should be tier 3 offensively, its Choice Scarf set is a decent cleaner but flawed because its strongest move locks it in and leaves it vulnerable, it is also SR weak which is never good for a Choice Scarf user. Don't pretend like anyone uses the DD set.

I'm tempted to put Genesect it tier 1 because it's so useful, but it obviously isn't hard to handle in and of itself.

 

[syrim]

Hippowdon is capable of walling Zekrom, Groudon, extremekiller, and even of phazing Rayquaza whilst providing SR. With its new ability it can function much like a Groudon with recovery for rain teams, without using up your arceus slot on a defensive form. I think this niche qualifies it for tier 2.

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

Tier 2 or 3 are both agreeable with me in regards to Hippowdon's placement, however, I was primarily in disagreement with Excadrill being moved down a tier.

 

[ssbbm]

i think genesect should be tier 1 *something* - it's the best dd rayquaza check, checks sd arceus, check lati@s... it's a top tier pokemon for sure