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I think Venusaur deserves an A tier ranking simply because it only needs sun to do its job and is only effectively walled by Heatran. It just straight up outspeeds everything else and heals back HP with giga drain. It also outspeeds and OHKOs every S tier pokemon besides Deoxys. Plus, it soaks up T-spikes and can run sleep powder if it wants to further ruin the opposing team.
Volcarona deserves a B tier rank because it may sweep like crazy, but requires sun AND spin support.
I saw this a couple pages back, but I want to revive the prospect of Landorus-I for S rank due to the sheer force (no pun intended) it presents alongside the unpredictability. Immunity to spikes and T-spikes, 2 amazing attack-boosting abilities, 3 great boosting moves (CM, SD, RP), excellent coverage, STAB EQ, and no hard counter to all of its sets (Not sure about a hard to counter to any 1 set either honestly) are all good reasons. The only downside I see is a weakness to ice shard, but Terrakion is S rank and is weak to bullet punch, mach punch, and aqua jet so it shouldn't be the sole factor.
Just so you know, no one has ever really cared about Ice Shard weakness since it only has two viable but uncommon users. Aqua Jet weakness was more of a fad when Azumarill became viable to check Excadrill. That one quickly wore out, but considering the recent dominance of Drizzle and offensive nature of OU, it might stage a comeback.
Venusaur is B-tier because the holes in his moveset make it more difficult for him to sweep than advertised. His STABs are both equally terrible and he is not threatening at all without a Growth boost. The best OU sweepers right now can bypass him with speed boosts and simply sweep right through him. He's an okay sweeper, but I don't think we should be giving him more credit than that.
Now that Kyurem-B was unbanned, what do you think of him? A-Tier or B-Tier? I don't know if it's too early to ask this, but on my opinion:
I think that at best, Kyurem-B is A-Tier, at best. Choice Band STAB Outrage coming off an insane base 170 Attack is indeed very, very scary. But with middling speed, common weakness to Fighting- and Dragon-type attacks, Bullet Punch and a weakness to Stealth Rock, I think that this dragon will have a hard time making an impact. At least it's neutral to Ice, wich means that traditional ways to get rid of Dragon-types will not work against him. However, this middling speed and multitude of weakness make me doubt if it's not equal, or even worse than dragons like Haxorus, Garchomp and Salamence, all wich can do similar sets to Kyurem-B, without that insane Attack, of course, but with much more key advantages.
About Volcarona, is not that Volcarona doesn't work outside sun, but Sun is definitively its best friend. It allows Volcarona to destroy things that resist its STABs with its STABs and opens Volcarona for better coverage options. However, it's really true, that rain definitively doesn't hinder Volcarona's Fire-type STAB; it can still OHKO/2HKO anything weak to it. However, be wary that Keldeo will be a nuisiance because it can outspeed Volcarona even after +1, and due to Rain, Volcarona definitively can't shrug off that Surf/Hydro Pump.
Lot's of crazy good arguments flying back and forth, and I want to assure you guys that i'm paying attention to them, but can do me a favor and pause your current arguments? We can back to this in a little while!!
What we REALLY need to discuss is Kyurem-B's tiering placement. Yeah, he recently dropped from Ubers. I'm interested in seeing the arguments from players who wanted to ban it. (Note: if you haven't played against Kyurem-B, please don't talk about it :x)
Kyurem-B right? Okay, here I go. I will just talk about it vs sun teams. No pokemon commonly found on sun teams can OHKO it. I once won a match by just spamming Dragon tail against the team with just SR+Spikes up(Froslass+Terrakion;too bad Xatu). It was Lavos's team. It's also not weak to ice which means it can beat Mamoswine and Genesect. It is funny how people talk like Kyurem-B's weaknessess are the worst in the world. Terrakion is priority weak;Deoxys-A was priority weak. Neither of the priorities KO. While using Dragon Tail, I noticed that Levitate user take damage from spikes if Dragon Tail forces them into the battle. It doesnt even need to set up. It has two about three options to get past its counters - 1)CHoice Band Outrage can 2hko Jirachi and Heatran, 2) Mixed Sets can run coverage moves to destroy its initial switch in, 3) Hazards+Dragon tail<-----This set got the normal Kyurem banned in UU. Dragon Tail can also place the opponent in a tough position. I think the reason that alot of people think its bad is because: Kyurem-B used Outrage! Dies next turn. I try to avoid this scenario by using Dragon Tail to weaken its counters(read:checks) early in the match. Later in the match they can likely be 2HKOed by outrage. It doesnt need a boosting move. It is strong enough as it is. I would rank it tier A.
Sorry for not being organized. Here is a fun calculation:
252SpAtk Life Orb Tornadus Therian (Neutral) Hurricane vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Kyurem Black (+SpDef): 38% - 45% (175 - 208 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.4Atk Life Orb Tornadus Therian (Neutral) Superpower vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Kyurem Black (Neutral): 49% - 58% (226 - 266 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 17% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.0Atk Teravolt Kyurem Black (Neutral) Fusion Bolt vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Tornadus Therian (Neutral): 92% - 108% (276 - 326 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 52% chance to OHKO.
It can counter Tornadus-T using a specialized(non-existant) ev spread. Stealth Rock must be kept off the field; this isnt too hard to accomplish.
EDIT: @Below, Like I said, the priorities dont KO. Breloom is really pusing it but Scizor is close. Breloom might die if it tried to revenge it. I havent found the priorities to be too much of a problem when Kyurem-B can just switch out. BTW Keldeo makes a nice Kyurem partner since it is resistant to steel and rock. Kyurem-B often gives me a 100% win chance against Hippowdon based sand teams.
Honestly, Kyurem is a solid A-rank pokemon in my eyes.
His movepool isn't as crappy as everyone thinks it is - it Focus Blast, Earth Power and Fusion Bolt as coverage, and that's all it needs.
Sub + 3 attack sets seem devastating, because it allows Cube to utilize its solid 125/100/90 defenses. LO + Roost/3 attacks also sounds devastating. It also doesn't require support at all - it appreciates Rapid Spin, but that's about it. It just needs to come in to hurt something badly.
And then there's the fact that its CB Outrage 2hkoes pretty much everything, that it's the only dragon that doesn't give a fuck about Genesect and Mamo; but on the other hand, CB Scizor (OHKO after SR) and LO/Fight Gem Breelom can revenge it pretty easily (LO Breelom has a 75% to KO 0/0 Kyurem), and it's 95 speed is a let down.
There's no good reason to use Focus Blast on Black Kyurem. His best set in my opinion is mixed LO with Earth Power, Outrage, Ice Beam, and Roost. But he has way too many enemies even with that set to be A-tier. In suspect testing, it was a hassle just getting him onto the field. B is the only suitable place I can see for him.
For starters, this thing needs a rapid spinner. I can't stress this enough. Any hazard on the field is a huge thorn in Kyurem B's side. Now, with nearly every team running hazards, Kyurem B finds it harder to come into the fray.
Next is its weakness to Fighting, Rock, Dragon, and Steel. With its Steel weakness, Scizor, Genesect, and Jirachi, three of the most popular pokemon in the metagame, can easily dispatch of the Titan with Bullet Punch/ Flash Cannon. Since 5th gen has been called the fighting generation, its fighting weakness is a huge downside. Terrakion, Keldeo, and Breloom all can wreck the behemoth with ease. The Dragon weakness means that pretty much any Dragon that is not Dragonite will outspeed him and can easily KO him, though they fear an Ice Beam or Outrage their way. And the Rock weakness means the above mentioned Terrakion and Tyranitar can KO with ease. And I have excluded other pokemon with coverage moves that can take him out.
Also, Kyurem B fares poorly in every weather besides hail. Sun allows powerful moves like a boosted Fire blast, Overheat, or V Create to melt the dragon alive. Rain cancels out his water resistance, while boosting the Steel types he dreads. As for sand, several popular Steel types benefit from the chip damage on Kyurem B, whittling him down for a quick and easy kill.
Kyurem B, with these things taken out, can reap in wins easy. However, so can other pokes. While not having to fear Mamoswine is awesome, It simply is outclassed somewhat by Salamence, Haxorus, and DNite as a physical poke, and Latios, Latias, and Hydreigon as a special one. It can go mixed, but it still needs a ton of support. I'll compare it to Gen 3 Bellyzard. It needed support, a lot of it mind you, and with that support it ripped teams apart with ease. Kyurem B is certainly a scary pokemon with support, but if he is just blindly thrown on a team, he won't be too successful.
For starters, this thing needs a rapid spinner. I can't stress this enough. Any hazard on the field is a huge thorn in Kyurem B's side. Now, with nearly every team running hazards, Kyurem B finds it harder to come into the fray. Rapid spin support is needed for Dragonite; Dragonite is just bad wihout its multiscale if it lacks roost(its most common set)
Next is its weakness to Fighting, Rock, Dragon, and Steel. With its Steel weakness, Scizor, Genesect, and Jirachi, three of the most popular pokemon in the metagame, can easily dispatch of the Titan with Bullet Punch/ Flash Cannon. Since 5th gen has been called the fighting generation, its fighting weakness is a huge downside. Terrakion, Keldeo, and Breloom all can wreck the behemoth with ease.(and vice versa if they decide to switch in) The Dragon weakness means that pretty much any Dragon that is not Dragonite will outspeed him and can easily KO him, though they fear an Ice Beam or Outrage their way. And the Rock weakness means the above mentioned Terrakion and Tyranitar can KO with ease. And I have excluded other pokemon with coverage moves that can take him out.
Also, Kyurem B fares poorly in every weather besides hail. Sun allows powerful moves like a boosted Fire blast, Overheat, or V Create to melt the dragon alive. Rain cancels out his water resistance???, while boosting the Steel types he dreads I would like to know the steel types. I think Latios has a bigger problem with them?. As for sand, several popular Steel types benefit from the chip damage on Kyurem B, whittling him down for a quick and easy kill. This must be a reason why so many rain teams struggle against Kyurem-B. It must also be the reason why Dragon Tail Spam killed a sun team. Lets not forget that Hippowdon based sand teams have a tough time beating it. Funnily enough, it doesnt need rapid spin support. It has roost. None of the above makes sense. What you said can also be applied to Latios since it cant do anything to steel types.
Kyurem B, with these things taken out, can reap in wins easy. However, so can other pokes. That is funny. Do you know why? It can beat all of its checks in a number of ways. The only thing is that it cannot beat everthing because well it has four moveslots. Kyurem-B can choose what it wants to beat. When I used it, I never really needed to support it. You can use it to weaken or kill steel types/walls and open up ways for other pokemon t sweep. While not having to fear Mamoswine is awesome, It simply is outclassed somewhat by Salamence, Haxorus,(how?) and DNite as a physical poke, and Latios, Latias,(how exactly? being genesect weak is fun) and Hydreigon as a special one. It can go mixed, but it still needs a ton of support. I'll compare it to Gen 3 Bellyzard.(I cant even take this seriously now)It needed support, a lot of it mind you, and with that support it ripped teams apart with ease. Kyurem B is certainly a scary pokemon with support, but if he is just blindly thrown on a team, he won't be too successful.
I haven't formulated much of an opinion on cube yet because I still have yet to get around to testing it and haven't faced it, but I am going to respond to the incorrectness of some of these posts.
MX42 said:
For starters, this thing needs a rapid spinner. I can't stress this enough. Any hazard on the field is a huge thorn in Kyurem B's side. Now, with nearly every team running hazards, Kyurem B finds it harder to come into the fray.
Of course any entry hazard on the field is annoying since cube is SR weak, but compare that to lots of things. There's Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, Dragonite, original Kyurem, Salamence, and more. You don't need a spinner so badly that it's necessary. The idea of these powerhouses is that you keep up offensive momentum, making entry hazards difficult to set up. Predict entry hazards, get cube in, and smash stuff apart.
Next is its weakness to Fighting, Rock, Dragon, and Steel. With its Steel weakness, Scizor, Genesect, and Jirachi, three of the most popular pokemon in the metagame, can easily dispatch of the Titan with Bullet Punch/ Flash Cannon. Since 5th gen has been called the fighting generation, its fighting weakness is a huge downside. Terrakion, Keldeo, and Breloom all can wreck the behemoth with ease. The Dragon weakness means that pretty much any Dragon that is not Dragonite will outspeed him and can easily KO him, though they fear an Ice Beam or Outrage their way. And the Rock weakness means the above mentioned Terrakion and Tyranitar can KO with ease. And I have excluded other pokemon with coverage moves that can take him out.
I'm not disputing these weaknesses, but you're thinking of cube in a vacuum. You're forgetting that cube is really really hard to switch into unless you're a Steel-type. None of these Pokemon are, in fact Outrage does a number to them all. So really, Fighting-, Rock-, and Dragon-types are just revenge killers. Oh, and you say Steel-type moves are common? Scizor is much less common nowadays, Genesect very rarely runs Flash Cannon/Iron Head, so Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball is left standing. And cube can just run HP Fire and OHKO/2HKO Ferro iirc. I can't ignore that switching in cube isn't easy either, that it is pressured switching in, but none of these mons can switch into it for free.
Also, Kyurem B fares poorly in every weather besides hail. Sun allows powerful moves like a boosted Fire blast, Overheat, or V Create to melt the dragon alive. Rain cancels out his water resistance, while boosting the Steel types he dreads. As for sand, several popular Steel types benefit from the chip damage on Kyurem B, whittling him down for a quick and easy kill.
While it's true that Blizzard is nice, cube needing Blizzard and hail in general to succeed is blatantly false. It fares just fine in sun and rain despite what you said. Honestly, there's Water-types that can't take sun-boosted Fire Blasts/Overheats/V-creates and rain-boosted Hydro Pumps/Surfs.
Kyurem B, with these things taken out, can reap in wins easy. However, so can other pokes. While not having to fear Mamoswine is awesome, It simply is outclassed somewhat by Salamence, Haxorus, and DNite as a physical poke, and Latios, Latias, and Hydreigon as a special one. It can go mixed, but it still needs a ton of support. I'll compare it to Gen 3 Bellyzard. It needed support, a lot of it mind you, and with that support it ripped teams apart with ease. Kyurem B is certainly a scary pokemon with support, but if he is just blindly thrown on a team, he won't be too successful.
Did you seriously compare this to Bellyzard? Cube doesn't require a ton of support, especially with mixed sets. I mean you don't slap it on a team but it doesn't need much more support than say Dragonite. Hell there's Dragonite sets that need even more suppirt than cube. Oh, and outclassed by other Dragon-types? 170/120 mixed offenses, beat that. Other Dragon-types can arguably wallbreak in a traditional sense better but cube is hitting overall harder.
Tabuu said:
I don't see Genesect being overly troubling to Kyurem-B. It usually runs Bug Buzz, U-Turn, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt. Kyurem can take a hit and most likely smash our poor critter to pieces. I have yet to see Flash Cannon Genesect...
Why is passive damage even an issue on a Pokemon with Roost? Sure you lose some momentum, but Kyurem-B (and regular Kyurem) causes enough switches that you can easily sneak in Roost without exposing yourself to danger.
Yea, these 2 points are flat out wrong. Recently, I began retesting Kyurem-B in OU (primarily in preparation for the Kyurem-B analysis in C&C) and decided to test the Sub Hone Claws set, due deciding set order and suchlike. I tossed Kyurem-B on a random rain team of mine, started ladder, and was very successful. Sub Hone Claws utterly wrecks most rain teams with ease, destroys any balanced / semi stall teams you come across etc etc, and is in general a good pokemon. So yea, I checked Kyurem-B on a rain team, and it did work, and based on my experiences with my random rain teams + Kyurem-B, I reckon the above statements perhaps need re wording.
Most people arguing for a lower tier placement of cube obviously aren't using him right ( if your using a choice set I'm talking to you). Utilizing either Ginga's Sub + Hone Claws set or the increasingly popular Sub + 3 Attacks, you are avoiding the status that plagues cube, as well as getting rid of most teams answer to it which is revenging. Since most teams just expect to sac a mon to outrage and then switch in and revenge, Sub offers a nasty suprise by thwarting off revenge killers, and with cubes impressive defenses, ability to make 101+HP substitutes and his few useful resistances, most notably to Volt Switch and Scald, he can put up substitute more often then you would think, and they are quite tough to break. Once behind the sub your team is really at its mercy, as with Dragon Tail + Hazards support if you get unlucky with what dragon tail drags out you could be in for a tough time, especially with the fact that +1 Dragon Tails are incredibly hard to tank. Sub + 3 attacks can rip through teams, as not much can outright switch in and take one of its attacks, making it one of the premier wall breakers in OU. Roost + LO sets are also very good, being comparable to Latias's tank set except with more power and physical bulk behind it, although it does have less special bulk
Overall I would like to propose Kyurem-B for A rank as although it has flaws (SR weakness, common prio weakness) with RS support (its appreciated but its not a necessity) and with different moveset tweaks it can overcome these problems, and nothing much in OU really has what cube has in amazing offensively dual STAB's, well above average bulk, and a movepool that lets it fulfill quite a few niches, and it can definitly sweep the large majority of the meta game at the drop of the hat if you give it an oppurtunity
Moxie is a very awesome ability on paper and it has solid attack and speed. In my experience most teams, aka teams that aren't complete garbage, have 2 or more Pokemon that can easily check Salamence. Two of Salamence's best checks are Donphan and Mamoswine, with he former being on nearly every sand team and the latter being on nearly every sun and hail team. And then there's Weavile who just annihilates him as well as every glass cannon that isn't Jolteon. Prankster users also annoy the **** out of Salamence. and then there's Quagsire with his happy ass face who will almost always be bulky enough to revenge kill it thanks to unaware. Hippowdown(sp?) is so stupidly bulky that the sight of him makes Salamence cry. Then there's Heatran who runs Air Balloon 80% of the time. It also needs to DD twice if it wants to have any chance of dealing with Venusaur as well. Salamence has no priority moves IIRC so it also hates sash shell smash Cloyster with a capital H.
There's probably more that I can't think of and don't feel like listing you probably get the point. A lot of the Pokemon in the A and S tiers laugh when they see Salamence, and these A and S tier pokemon are very common. I feel like Salamence is checked by far too much for it to be able to "sweep a significant portion of the metagame". It can sweep atypical OU teams easily but that's about it. It should be moved to B, and personally, I think that may be a bit generous.
Moxie is a very awesome ability on paper and it has solid attack and speed. In my experience most teams, aka teams that aren't complete garbage, have 2 or more Pokemon that can easily check Salamence. Two of Salamence's best checks are Donphan and Mamoswine, with he former being on nearly every sand team and the latter being on nearly every sun and hail team. And then there's Weavile who just annihilates him as well as every glass cannon that isn't Jolteon. Prankster users also annoy the **** out of Salamence. and then there's Quagsire with his happy ass face who will almost always be bulky enough to revenge kill it thanks to unaware. Hippowdown(sp?) is so stupidly bulky that the sight of him makes Salamence cry. Then there's Heatran who runs Air Balloon 80% of the time. It also needs to DD twice if it wants to have any chance of dealing with Venusaur as well. Salamence has no priority moves IIRC so it also hates sash shell smash Cloyster with a capital H.
There's probably more that I can't think of and don't feel like listing you probably get the point. A lot of the Pokemon in the A and S tiers laugh when they see Salamence, and these A and S tier pokemon are very common. I feel like Salamence is checked by far too much for it to be able to "sweep a significant portion of the metagame". It can sweep atypical OU teams easily but that's about it. It should be moved to B, and personally, I think that may be a bit generous.
Salamence is fine in A-Tier. Sure its SR weak and lose to Ice Shard, that's expected. It has decent bulk, solid resists, a good Speed tier, two great abilities, awesome STAB, one of the best physical boosting moves ever, enormous attack power on both sides of the spectrum, and a movepool that allows it to do whatever the hell it likes.
Salamence needs support, fair enough. But no sweeper is going to tear through an entire team without any kind of support, or they go to Ubers. Salamence isn't broken, it has checks, but if it gets certain things out of the way, it can sweep, easy.
Moxie is a very awesome ability on paper and it has solid attack and speed. In my experience most teams, aka teams that aren't complete garbage, have 2 or more Pokemon that can easily check Salamence. Two of Salamence's best checks are Donphan and Mamoswine, with he former being on nearly every sand team and the latter being on nearly every sun and hail team. And then there's Weavile who just annihilates him as well as every glass cannon that isn't Jolteon. Prankster users also annoy the **** out of Salamence. and then there's Quagsire with his happy ass face who will almost always be bulky enough to revenge kill it thanks to unaware. Hippowdown(sp?) is so stupidly bulky that the sight of him makes Salamence cry. Then there's Heatran who runs Air Balloon 80% of the time. It also needs to DD twice if it wants to have any chance of dealing with Venusaur as well. Salamence has no priority moves IIRC so it also hates sash shell smash Cloyster with a capital H.
There's probably more that I can't think of and don't feel like listing you probably get the point. A lot of the Pokemon in the A and S tiers laugh when they see Salamence, and these A and S tier pokemon are very common. I feel like Salamence is checked by far too much for it to be able to "sweep a significant portion of the metagame". It can sweep atypical OU teams easily but that's about it. It should be moved to B, and personally, I think that may be a bit generous.
I'm sorry for being blunt here, but you saying Donphan is on "nearly every sand team" is enough to invalidate your argument in my opinion. Second, Dragonite gets RKed by Mamoswine too, does that make it bad? That's like saying Terrakion isn't a high/top tier Pokemon because it gets revenge killed so easily by Scizor and Techniloom. Every sweeper has its checks, so by your logic, all sweepers would be B tier. Also, things you listed like Quagsire and Hippowdon lose to MixMence. As for your second paragraph, Salamence can actually sweep very effectively, especially with many teams using Scarf Genesect as their revenge killer.
I'm sorry for being blunt here, but you saying Donphan is on "nearly every sand team" is enough to invalidate your argument in my opinion. Second, Dragonite gets RKed by Mamoswine too, does that make it bad? That's like saying Terrakion isn't a high/top tier Pokemon because it gets revenge killed so easily by Scizor and Techniloom. Every sweeper has its checks, so by your logic, all sweepers would be B tier. Also, things you listed like Quagsire and Hippowdon lose to MixMence. As for your second paragraph, Salamence can actually sweep very effectively, especially with many teams using Scarf Genesect as their revenge killer.
Dragonite is bulkier and has multiscale so Mamoswine doesn't check it as hard as Dragoonite doesn't get OHKO'd. Some things that threaten Salamence don't threaten Dragonite because of the bulk and movepool difference (Dragonite's is better).
And yes, every sweeper has checks but it's the sheer number of checks that Salamence has that stop him from being an a tier sweeper. You will see at least two solid Salamence checks on any team you play against that doesn't suck.
The typical lolweathervoltturnchoicescarf abusing team can easily shut Salamence down before it gets the chance to do anything significant.
Now that we're done discussing Kyurem-B's placement, I would like to address a multitude of different topics that have been ignored or completely skipped over.
Firstly, I'd like to talk about UU and other lower tier Pokemon who are very viable in the OU metagame. These Pokemon include Azelf, whose Nasty Plot set I personally use (it's surprisingly effective), Mew, the most versatile Pokemon in the game, Scrafty, whose name I've actually seen mentioned quite a few times, Victini, whose V-Create is the most powerful move in the game, and a plethora of others whose names I am honestly to lazy to write because it would take me all night to do so. These four are the ones that I'd most like to focus on.
I've had experience with all of these Pokemon and they deserve C Rank at the very least. Azelf is one that I've just recently started using. It has swept many a team and although it is a glass cannon and may have trouble with CS Genesect, it is more than capable of being a threat and keeping offensive momentum. My team was not built for it. It was added on because I wanted a fast Psychic type that could set up. I would recommend B Rank for it.
Mew is the most versatile Pokemon. (period). If anyone questions its versatility, they are absolutely insane. Not to say that it is the best at everything, it isn't. But as a support Pokemon, I think that it definitely deserves a spot in the B tier.
Scrafty is one of my favorite Pokemon ever, but it's major flaw is that it can only run one set in OU, DD. Even still, that set, when used correctly and by using a slightly different variant than that which Smogon has, you can very easily rack up a DD or 2 and proceed to sweep entire teams mid-late game. It deserves high C Rank.
Victini is one of the premier sun sweepers out there. Its V-Create hits like a truck in the sun. Equipping a Choice Scarf negates the effects of the first V-Create. I don't know what else to say except it's good. I'm torn between C and B rank for this one. (I know I'm going to get negative comments for ranking Azelf over Victini)
Next, I'd like to talk about the S-Tier. Two Pokemon need to be switched there in my opinion: Jirachi and Deoxys-D.
Jirachi is the most annoying Pokemon ever. I would even consider banning it. Think about it. If it Paralyzes you (with T-wave or Body Slam), then there's a great chance that it will defeat all of your Pokemon with Iron Head just because they weren't able to move. I'm surprised that no one discussed this when talking about Jirachi. The Paraflinch combo is the best in the game. There is nothing even comparable. Jirachi has excellent typing, giving it 8 resistances and one immunity. This allows it to switch in rather easily, especially considering that the only hazard that really bothers it is Spikes. Jirachi is one of the only Pokemon that is effectively able to play the role of a support Pokemon (by setting up Stealth Rock, spreading status, and wishing) a defensive Pokemon (with sufficient 100/100/100 defenses and the great typing I mentioned earlier) and an offensive Pokemon(with its great coverage, provided by the elemental punche, CM, and, again, the infamous ParaFlinch combo). I know that this point has been argued before, but I very strongly advocate it. I really don't see why it isn't.
Deoxys-D:
It is a great Pokemon but it does not by any means deserve to be S tier. I would put it in the A tier. Here are some stats:
Scizor is still the #2 Pokemon in usage on PO for this month and its most common set is CB: 252Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) U-turn vs 252HP/4Def Deoxys (Neutral): 82% - 97% (252 - 296 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) U-turn vs 252HP/56Def Deoxys (+Def): 71% - 85% (218 - 260 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. Genesect is #1 and even w/o a download boost: 252SpAtk Genesect (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/200SpDef Deoxys (Neutral): 53% - 63% (164 - 194 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252SpAtk Genesect (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/252SpDef Deoxys (+SpDef): 47% - 55% (144 - 170 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 18% chance to 2HKO.
252SpAtk Genesect (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/252SpDef Deoxys (Neutral): 51% - 61% (158 - 188 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. Tyranitar is #5: 0Atk Tyranitar (Neutral) Crunch vs 252HP/4Def Deoxys (Neutral): 49% - 57% (150 - 176 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 23% chance to 2HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Pursuit vs 252HP/4Def Deoxys (Neutral): 48% - 57% (146 - 174 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 21% chance to 2HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Pursuit vs 252HP/4Def switching Deoxys (Neutral): 95% - 113% (290 - 344 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 74% chance to OHKO.
252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Crunch vs 252HP/56Def Deoxys (+Def): 83% - 99% (254 - 302 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
What these stats show is that almost every team is carrying a counter to Deoxys-D, or Psychic types in general. When a Deoxys-D is seen in team preview, everyone knows that it is going to lead. All one has to do is send in their counter first turn. This will give their team great momentum or will cripple Deoxys-D. Not to say that it is bad, but I don't think it is S Rank because S Rank is given to potential suspects. Deoxys-D is still an amazing wall, but it, by no means, needs to be banned.
Lastly, I'd like to hit on the topic of two last Pokemon: Ferrothorn, and because of the last post I read before typing this, Salamence.
Ferrothorn deserves to be A Rank. To quote the thread a support Pokemon in A Rank: "may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time."
That fits it perfectly. It sometimes gives opponents free turns in setting up, but it can usually survive a turn and effectively do what it is meant to do: set up hazards and possibly even T-wave. With the right support, this thing can become an atrocity.
Salamence is by no means a B Rank Pokemon. With Intimidate, it can easily create a free turn, set up a DD and proceed to sweep at faster speed than most if not all non-scarfed Pokemon. At +1 it hits extremely hard. SR is not necessarily a problem either because mence also gets Roost. And let's not forget CS+Moxie. Mence is very versatile and, imo, better than even Dragonite, especially in the amount of support it needs.
Also, I read someone's suggestion to split the B Rank in two. I agree completely with this because it is getting really crowded in there and some of those Pokemon are obviously better than others. Especially if and when we add the neglected UU pokes in there.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel pretty strongly about these things and want to get my point across.
EDIT:
@InnerDemon: Have you ever used a Salamence on a good team? Had you, you would know that it can wreck shop. D-nite on the other hand requires that there be rocks off of the field before it can do anything and even still it is slow. Both are good and both have their weaknesses, but, by definition of A tier, they both "require some support or have some flaw" which hinders their sweeping capabilities.
Dragonite is bulkier and has multiscale so Mamoswine doesn't check it as hard as Dragoonite doesn't get OHKO'd. Some things that threaten Salamence don't threaten Dragonite because of the bulk and movepool difference (Dragonite's is better).
LOL. Dragonite will almost always lose Multiscale in the turn it uses Dragon Dance, maybe even before if you don't have a Spinner. Its bulk isn't that different from Salamence's without Multiscale, and it will die to almost any Ice-type move anyway. The difference is that Salamence can actually deal with Genesect.
Also, Salamence's movepool isn't inferior to Dragonite's. It has Hydro Pump and a better Special Attack, which means it can be a better wall breaker (f*ck Hurricane, btw). Also, don't forget about Wish.
Indeed there are many pokémon that can 2HKO Deoxys-D, but until you defeat him, it already setupped one or two layers of hazards. There are very few pokémon that can OHKO Deoxys-D to avoid this, and even fewer that can prevent him from using hazards and then 2HKO him. Two of the pokémon that you cited, Choice Bant Tyranitar and Scizor, are excellent checks to Deoxys-D, but they cannot prevent him from setting Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes (or 2 layers of Spikes). The problem is that there are many Pokémon that can defeat Deoxys-D, but very few of them can do this without giving him time to setup hazards.
Dragonite is bulkier and has multiscale so Mamoswine doesn't check it as hard as Dragoonite doesn't get OHKO'd. Some things that threaten Salamence don't threaten Dragonite because of the bulk and movepool difference (Dragonite's is better).
And yes, every sweeper has checks but it's the sheer number of checks that Salamence has that stop him from being an a tier sweeper. You will see at least two solid Salamence checks on any team you play against that doesn't suck.
The typical lolweathervoltturnchoicescarf abusing team can easily shut Salamence down before it gets the chance to do anything significant.
Lol, yea because of course a good player cant break dnite's Scale before bringing in Mamo/Scarfer, which btw reminds me that EVERY SINGLE (reliable) scarfer in OU revenges dnite, im not talking about stupid crap like CS politoed, which cant even be treated like a revenge killer, so, sheer number of revenge killers? its incredibly easy for mence to sweep in this meta with just the right support (which isnt even that hard).
Mence's Moxie is in my opinion, as useful for it as Multiscale is for Dragonite, since both of them are CRUCIAL at the moment of sweeping for both, and anyways if were comparing both in the sweeping department then let me tell you that a well built team getting swept by DD nite this days means awful player, its CB set is the best IMO: its meant to wallbreak, not to sweep.
And then we have the speed issue, when you will always be revenged by genesect, a poke that has more than 50% in the (real) OU stats, you just arent that big threat anymore, arent you? On the other hand, mence destroys gene with fire blast outspeeding it.
My pint: Mence kept in A-tier, its still a otent threat, just not what it used to be.
Indeed there are many pokémon that can 2HKO Deoxys-D, but until you defeat him, it already setupped one or two layers of hazards. There are very few pokémon that can OHKO Deoxys-D to avoid this, and even fewer that can prevent him from using hazards and then 2HKO him. Two of the pokémon that you cited, Choice Bant Tyranitar and Scizor, are excellent checks to Deoxys-D, but they cannot prevent him from setting Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes (or 2 layers of Spikes). The problem is that there are many Pokémon that can defeat Deoxys-D, but very few of them can do this without giving him time to setup hazards.
Although this is very true, almost every team nowadays has a spinner on it. Neutering the hazard setter with ease and then spinning on some type of a switch is hardly detrimental to the team with the spinner and would make Deoxys-D practically useless, dead weight even. Although there are Pokemon who check other hazard setters, they are, for the most part, not as common. Also, those hazard setters are all in the A or B tier. What makes Deoxys-D so much more special than them? The other thing about it is that it isn't very versatile and is always (99.9%) used as a lead. This makes it predictable. Again, I'm not talking about putting it in in C tier but A. An A is an extremely high rank, and, as I stated in my earlier post, S rank is reserved for Pokemon with huge impacts on the metagame, those who might be considered to be banned, or, in politoed's case, have a ridiculously high impact on the metagame. Deoxys-D doesn't fill either of these criteria. I may not have a Pokemon on my team specifically placed to counter against Deoxys-D. I will, on the other hand, have one for terrakion and genesect, as well as a strategy to defeat the large portion of rain teams. I do generally carry a spinner but that is to counter all hazard setters in general, not for Deoxys. I also may carry Scizor or Genesect, but that, again, is for all Psychic types and, in Scizor's case, for priority, a Steel type, etc.; Genesect doesn't need an explanation.
Indeed there are many pokémon that can 2HKO Deoxys-D, but until you defeat him, it already setupped one or two layers of hazards. There are very few pokémon that can OHKO Deoxys-D to avoid this, and even fewer that can prevent him from using hazards and then 2HKO him. Two of the pokémon that you cited, Choice Bant Tyranitar and Scizor, are excellent checks to Deoxys-D, but they cannot prevent him from setting Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes (or 2 layers of Spikes). The problem is that there are many Pokémon that can defeat Deoxys-D, but very few of them can do this without giving him time to setup hazards.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 290-344 (95.39 - 113.15%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Deoxys-D can only set up SR against Ttar (dies to sandstorm if crunch doens't OHKO)
So yea, you're wrong about Deoxys-D setting up SR and 1 layer of spikes, he just sets up SR (which many other pokes can do as well)
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 320-380 (105.26 - 125%)
Same with scizor (or you can u-turn and have something else finish it off, tanga berry deoxys-D admittedly can set up two layers here)
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Genesect U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-D: 324-384 (106.57 - 126.31%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And just for fun, a poke that can outspeed Deoxys-D AND OHKO it, pretty impressive. (almost all deoxys-D run 4 Sp.Def to avoid bug buzz from gene OHKOing)
(modest Specs Zoroark and Hydreigon also have a good chance to OHKO though they're both rare).
Other than that, taunt torn-t and terrakion both stop it.
Though I still think Deoxys-D should be S rank because of how well it can set up hazards without being set-up fodder (thunder-wave cripples most set up sweepers, or you can just run red card which means scarf genesect can't reliably u-turn to something to finish deoxys-D off, making 2 layers pretty easy to get, as well as beating any set-up sweeper)
Plus it can run specific moves/items to get past what would normally counter it (magic coat for taunt users, tanga berry for genesect, rocky helmet for rapid spinners, and even skill swap if you despise espeon)
Even with genesect dominating the metagame I'd still keep deoxys-D in S rank because of how good hazards are and how it lets you start the game with momentum in your favour.
