Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[TheStriker]

Yeah, I don't see Metagross often because its useles these days and only has cool design but still, agility set is too much for UU, see ya in BL bud. You should add Galvantula and input it in C Rank also mention and add Wobbefutt into S Rank. No Team Support, Kills, Free Turns. Period.

 

[Wizarus]

Virizion loses to SubToxic Tentacruel, is walled by Chansey, and that filler usually can phaze. Offensive rain, Thundurus-T beats it too. Virizion is an excellent sweeper, both CM and SD are, they just tear apart teams with ease. All you have to do is punch some holes (I had a team RMT'd right before BW2 that did this for example, loved that team) with maybe a MixMence or Hydreigon or cube or whatever and some entry hazard support, then Virizion can go to town assuming you remove its counters. So yeah, Virizion is potent, just not as much as you are implicating. (thanks for reppin' my boy though)

Just wanted to say that any version of Virizion will beat Chansey 1 on 1, and Sub Toxic Tentacruel will lose to SD Virizion if Scald doesn't burn.

 

[thebrownie]

Mew isn't even versatile, it's viable for most things it does. It's only good at a few sets and it's hard to find a spot for mew since it's just not game changing and doesn't fill a niche that other pokemon can't fill better.

 

[PDC]

Nominating Bronzong For B Rank

Bronzong has a few things going for it and going against it. People prefer many different defensive steels to this guy but really Bronzong has huge bonuses in why you should be using him. Bronzong for one is immune to Earthquake. This makes him an excellent Landorus - T and Landorus - I counter. With it' great Special and Physical defensive stats he can comfortably take U-Turns and Focus Blast's from both of them, putting them both to a full stop. As we all know by now Landorus - I is very common nowadays with that Special attacking set, and Bronzong, unlike Jirachi, can counter it easily, with an inaccurate Focus Blast being it's only way of hurting it. Bronzong also has the fantastic steel typing which allows it to resist Dragon attacks which are prevalent in the metagame. Bronzong only has to worry about Fire Blasts and Punches when coming in on Garchomp, Salamence, and Dragonite. Otherwise he could care less about what they can do to him. It can easily come in on Scarf Salamence or Banded Garchomp and tank their Outrages or Earthquakes. Bronzong can also tank Draco Meteors and Surfs from the Lati Twins, while they fear a strong Gyro Ball. Bronzong can also take advantage of the common Tornadus - T, which it's steel typing allows it to resist Hurricane, which is a huge bonus. Even better Bronzong can set up Stealth Rock and not risk getting trapped by Magnezone due to it's access to Earthquake. DragMag teams have no problem trapping Jirachi, but a decently healthy Bronzong can make anybody fearful. The only dragon Bronzong does not safely check in Haxorus, who is taking a high dip in usage anyway. Bronzong is great in this metagame, and it should really be treated as such more often. Being able to check rising threats along with old ones is a huge advantage. It can do much more defensively than many know, it can act as a check to Pokemon like Mamoswine, Landorus, Salamence, Tornadus - T, Kyurem-B and Garchomp all in one Pokemon. But even Better Bronzong doesn't have to worry much about hazards like other defensive Pokemon do. Being immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes while resisting Stealth Rock turns residual damage a thing of the past for Bronzong. A Toxic immunity is also a cool perk of being a steel type. Bronzong deserves B Rank for it's qualities, but let's see what would make people not want to have Bronzong up to B Rank.

Bronzong lacks reliable recovery is probably the biggest issue for nominating him for a higher rank. Unlike Jirachi or Scizor Bronzong cannot heal itself up aside from Rest, which is completely inpractical on a Bronzong. This is a saddening fact, but it is true that Bronzong cannot take too many strong repeated hits over and over again without being damaged sufficiently. If we look at the other common defensive steels, Jirachi has access to Wish which gives him a way to heal up damage taken from Hurricanes, Outrages and Draco Meteors. Scizor can Roost up and heal off a good chunk of damage immediately. But Bronzong sadly has to sit in a corner where he can't heal up at all. If Bronzong had access to Recover of any sort it would be used more for sure, but for now it has to deal with having no Recovery accessible outside of Wish from another teammate and a timely Rest.

Now if we look at both Pros and Cons, we can see that the Pros outweigh the Cons. But does all that really mean Bronzong deserves B Rank? Well that is a hard question to ask considering how low Bronzong is on the usage statistics and the many bad opinions players share about him, but Bronzong definitely fills niches that other higher tiered defensive Pokemon can't. Usage also has nothing to do with how good a Pokemon is at all. There have been many examples where people have has great success with lower usage Pokemon that provide a niche that their team may need to be filled, and Bronzong acts as a glue just like that for many teams. Bronzong really deserves this and it is great in the BW2 metagame. I am sure many players agree with me that Bronzong is more than meets the eye. PenguinX did a great job using Bronzong in his previous RMT, and it provided some well needed patches to the holes that needed to be filled. It fits the description of B Rank perfectly, and is certainly more than just a niche.

 

[Crackstar]

I'll second Zong for B rank. It's a great check to a lot of things, really more of a counter but the fact it can be worn down. It also has ample chances to set up rocks during a match, which is always helpful. My opinion, though, is that Landorus-I is S- Rank. Here:

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this
rank.

Landorus fits this perfectly. It can sweep most of the meta with special Rock Polish, with Sheer force boosted moves. It can also wallbreak with CM, although this is more rare. Its flagship sets of BW1, Scarf and Swords Dance, still work, although they've been hurt by the increase of rain. Between all of these, Landorus can run through most of the meta. Also, all these sets gives Landorus-I amazing versatility. There's no way to tell which set it's running until it sets up on you, or in the case of the choice scarf set, revenges you. It does have some flaws: It's Mamo weak (but another S-rank, Terrakion, is Loom/Scizor weak), it both of its sets have checks (Rotom-W, Bronzong, Zapdos for Sheer Force, Zong, Gliscor, and more for Physical), but almost none of them check both, and Physical sets rely on sand in a Rain-dominate metagame, but all of these flaws are outweighed by it's strengths. So thats why i want Landorus-I for S-Rank

 

[EnterRAYZORS]

Well im glad the whole S Rank mew crap is out of the way. Mew not bad but hes got hot competition from Jirachi and Jirachis typing make him 10 x better imo but moving on.

@Crackstar
Landorus I in A? Hmmmm I agree its can easily demolish the metagame after a Rock Polish. So im going to second your view. especially as at the moment theres the Lando I Genesect Rock Polishing core that can almost just run through any team. However it is easily countered by scarfed waters or sharpedo and azumarill.

 

[PK Gaming]

ok

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update
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Bronzong up from C-tier ==> B-tier
Toxicroak up from C-tier ==> B-tier

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2 underrated-but-pretty-good Pokemon are getting some deserved tiering shifts. There was a time where i'd classify Mew as an S-tier Pokemon. That time was BW1, and i'm honestly not sure where to place it in BW2. I've barely even used Mew in BW2 and it seems like everyone hasn't either. Pity... tbh i'm not sure where to place it, whatsoever.

Potential changes:
Abomasnow up from C == > B tier? I mean it sets up hail on its own, that's gotta count for something.

 

[ClubbingSealCub]

everyone hasn't either. Pity... tbh i'm not sure where to place it, whatsoever.

Potential changes:
Abomasnow up from C == > B tier? I mean it sets up hail on its own, that's gotta count for something.

If Hail did something other than cancelling the other weathers, I'd say yes, B-tier.

Obamasnow has too much trouble switching into stuff because it's typing is shit. It "technically" beats the other weather inducers one-on-one with a scarf, but GL getting him in to do that x_X

 

[superstar]

Toxicroak is simply not A-Tier. I don't even think that Swords Dance is his best set, honestly. SubPunch scares the daylights out of me and makes me terrified to throw Specs Hydro Pumps around when I see it against my rain team -- it can 2HKO practically everything with Focus Punch, and takes almost no damage in the process.

Now that being said, can we really put Toxicroak on the same level as Rotom-W, Jirachi, and Breloom? Its just so hard to set him up. Opponents will simply refuse to use choiced water moves if they see Toxicroak in Team Preview. Almost anything with a powerful move can defeat Croak pretty easily, and he is outsped by many threats. Add this to the fact that he totally relies on Rain for his niche, and it is very easy to see why Croak fits perfectly in B-tier. He is certainly a dangerous sweeper, and that can't be underestimated, but the ease in which he can be revenge killed and prevented from setting up makes him solid B-tier.
Also, anything faster that uses Substitute will murder him if you predict Sucker Punch wrong.

Tl;dr: Toxicroak is mad underrated, but belongs in B-Tier


On another note, I would like to nominate Azumarill for C-Tier. This little rodent needs some love. He is one of the best priority users in the game at the moment. Only Mamoswine and maybe Scizor or Dragonite stick out as better. He slaughters both of the offensive S-Tier pokes, Genesect and Terrakion.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect in rain: 210-247 (74.2 - 87.27%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 260-308 (80.24 - 95.06%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Obviously, he OHKOs Terrakion in rain. In addition, Azumarill can do 81% minimum to Landorus-I even outside of Rain and kill Volcarona in Rain (since Volc will always be in Rain or Sun). If a switch is predicted, Azumarill can nail a switch in -- even doing 50% to physically defensive Tentacruel with Waterfall, and shredding 75% off of Latios in rain.

Therefore, we see that Azumarill is a great utility Pokemon for offensive rain teams. He is certainly more than viable in OU and should definitely be on this list.

However, Azumarill does have several crippling flaws. First, most of the targets of Azumarill's revenge killing will simply switch out. If the opponent has a Jellicent or a Tentacruel, you are walled to hell and back. You can (almost) OHKO Ferrothorn with Superpower or ravage Dragonite/Latias with Ice Punch, but it is difficult to predict which of their water resists will come in. This lack of coverage and reliance on prediction makes Azumarill a solid C-Tier Pokemon.

EDIT: Looking at the Tiers more closely, I might even put Azumarill in B-Tier

 

[Keldeo333]

Alright I'm going to respond to everyone who responded to my earlier posts. Not going to compare Mew to Celebi or Jirachi though as they have a different niche.Mew is an S rank pokemon because It has no real counters as it can beat everything in OU with the right move. It can use a bunch of sets. To the people saying it's outclassed at everything he does, that's simply not true because Mew has other advantages over them as well. Smashpass users outclasses Mew's baton pass set? No. Mew has quite a couple of advantages over them like Taunt, Magic Coat, Hypnosis and Mew doesn't just have Swords Dance, Nasty Plot and Rock Polish to pass, It also has Bulk up, Calm Mind, Amnesia, Barrier, Substitute, Flame Charge which can all be extremely useful to the recipient and it can give you the win if you play your cards right. Mew's outclassed as a Swords Dance sweeper? Mew can again like I said have advantages over other Swords Dance sweepers such as Lucario better speed, Better defenses, access to Drain Punch to heal Life Orb damage, Zen headbutt's flinch chance which can come in handy at times. Sucker Punch which I think it's more useful than Extremespeed because it can hit ghost types and it can hit more stuff for super effective damage unlike Extremespeed which is not super effective against anything. Sucker Punch nasty side effect of failing if the opponent doesn't attack does suck though but again if you are a good predictor it shouldn't be that much of a problem. Another advantage Mew has over other sweepers is of course access to Baton pass, Mew can run two moves with Baton Pass and Nasty Plot/Swords Dance if you can't take out an opponent simply pass the boost to someone who can. Mew's outclassed as a stallbreaker? lolno. Mew probably does it better than anything else due to naturally high speed, Taunt, Will-O-Wisp and awesome defensive stats. Mew's outclassed as a Stealth Rock lead? No. It has access to Magic Coat which can beat Deoxys D leads because it's faster than it. Access to Tailwind and Explosion are also other examples. Mew's outclassed as a Scarfer? Nope. it's actually a pretty cool set as Mew can surprise kill a lot of pokemon. It also has access to Transform to troll pokemon like Terrakion late game. So what i'm trying to say is that Mew isn't really outclassed at anything because it has it's own advantages as well. Another big advantage that I haven't mentioned yet is that Mew is unpredictable and your opponent can only just attempt to guess the set which makes Mew even more deadlier. People just don't use Mew that much for people to realize just how good it really is. Sad because Mew is up there with the best. I have used Mew on a good number of my OU teams so I know what I'm talking about. I actually fear that Mew might go Uber next gen who knows what moves or dreamworld ability Gamefreak might give it.

 

[thebrownie]

Watch Zapdos get Hurricane. BAM! A Rank garunteed.

S tier easy. Stab Thunder and hurricane is just completely OP. completely gamebreaking

Alright I'm going to respond to everyone who responded to my earlier posts. Not going to compare Mew to Celebi or Jirachi though as they have a different niche.Mew is an S rank pokemon

You can Theorycraft all you want, but Mew doesn't work that way in practice. Everytime I see mew used in ladder is completely underwhelming except for rocks and explosion with normal gem and that's only because you get rocks and play 5-5 after. I've never once seen a mew on an opposing team and looked twice. Toed, Genesect, Terrakijon and Deoxys-D I change my lead, or preserve my counter as long as possible. Mew just doesn't do anything.

If you want you can make a team with mew and I'll play you a few times so you can show me why it's S tier.

 

[Keldeo333]

@Thebrownie Sure if you want to
@Tabuu *palmface*

 

[emirinho]

I would like to nominate Infernape to rank B.

I dont know why is no one using infernape recently when he completely destroys every single steel-typed pokemon in the metagame. He is also very unpredictable. One can use the banded set,the mixed set or the scarfed set an the opponent can not be sure which set is used. Infernrape can also efficiently beat the offensive part of the metagame because of its typing and speed.
The fire/fighting type makes it a great pokemon for good offensive pressure, also infernape can be very efficiently used in volt-turn teams or it can simple play a role of taking momentum. Its high speed and decent attack make it a great pokemon. In my opinon Infernape should be put in rank B it has the power, good movepool, speed and it is unpredictable.

 

[morningsun]

Now that we're done discussing Kyurem-B's placement, I would like to address a multitude of different topics that have been ignored or completely skipped over.

Firstly, I'd like to talk about UU and other lower tier Pokemon who are very viable in the OU metagame. These Pokemon include Azelf, whose Nasty Plot set I personally use (it's surprisingly effective), Mew, the most versatile Pokemon in the game, Scrafty, whose name I've actually seen mentioned quite a few times, Victini, whose V-Create is the most powerful move in the game, and a plethora of others whose names I am honestly to lazy to write because it would take me all night to do so. These four are the ones that I'd most like to focus on.

I've had experience with all of these Pokemon and they deserve C Rank at the very least. Azelf is one that I've just recently started using. It has swept many a team and although it is a glass cannon and may have trouble with CS Genesect, it is more than capable of being a threat and keeping offensive momentum. My team was not built for it. It was added on because I wanted a fast Psychic type that could set up. I would recommend B Rank for it.

Mew is the most versatile Pokemon. (period). If anyone questions its versatility, they are absolutely insane. Not to say that it is the best at everything, it isn't. But as a support Pokemon, I think that it definitely deserves a spot in the B tier.

Scrafty is one of my favorite Pokemon ever, but it's major flaw is that it can only run one set in OU, DD. Even still, that set, when used correctly and by using a slightly different variant than that which Smogon has, you can very easily rack up a DD or 2 and proceed to sweep entire teams mid-late game. It deserves high C Rank.

Victini is one of the premier sun sweepers out there. Its V-Create hits like a truck in the sun. Equipping a Choice Scarf negates the effects of the first V-Create. I don't know what else to say except it's good. I'm torn between C and B rank for this one. (I know I'm going to get negative comments for ranking Azelf over Victini)

Next, I'd like to talk about the S-Tier. Two Pokemon need to be switched there in my opinion: Jirachi and Deoxys-D.
Jirachi is the most annoying Pokemon ever. I would even consider banning it. Think about it. If it Paralyzes you (with T-wave or Body Slam), then there's a great chance that it will defeat all of your Pokemon with Iron Head just because they weren't able to move. I'm surprised that no one discussed this when talking about Jirachi. The Paraflinch combo is the best in the game. There is nothing even comparable. Jirachi has excellent typing, giving it 8 resistances and one immunity. This allows it to switch in rather easily, especially considering that the only hazard that really bothers it is Spikes. Jirachi is one of the only Pokemon that is effectively able to play the role of a support Pokemon (by setting up Stealth Rock, spreading status, and wishing) a defensive Pokemon (with sufficient 100/100/100 defenses and the great typing I mentioned earlier) and an offensive Pokemon(with its great coverage, provided by the elemental punche, CM, and, again, the infamous ParaFlinch combo). I know that this point has been argued before, but I very strongly advocate it. I really don't see why it isn't.

Deoxys-D:
It is a great Pokemon but it does not by any means deserve to be S tier. I would put it in the A tier. Here are some stats:

Hide

Scizor is still the #2 Pokemon in usage on PO for this month and its most common set is CB:
252Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) U-turn vs 252HP/4Def Deoxys (Neutral): 82% - 97% (252 - 296 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) U-turn vs 252HP/56Def Deoxys (+Def): 71% - 85% (218 - 260 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Genesect is #1 and even w/o a download boost:
252SpAtk Genesect (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/200SpDef Deoxys (Neutral): 53% - 63% (164 - 194 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252SpAtk Genesect (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/252SpDef Deoxys (+SpDef): 47% - 55% (144 - 170 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 18% chance to 2HKO.
252SpAtk Genesect (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/252SpDef Deoxys (Neutral): 51% - 61% (158 - 188 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Tyranitar is #5:
0Atk Tyranitar (Neutral) Crunch vs 252HP/4Def Deoxys (Neutral): 49% - 57% (150 - 176 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 23% chance to 2HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Pursuit vs 252HP/4Def Deoxys (Neutral): 48% - 57% (146 - 174 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 21% chance to 2HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Pursuit vs 252HP/4Def switching Deoxys (Neutral): 95% - 113% (290 - 344 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 74% chance to OHKO.
252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Crunch vs 252HP/56Def Deoxys (+Def): 83% - 99% (254 - 302 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

What these stats show is that almost every team is carrying a counter to Deoxys-D, or Psychic types in general. When a Deoxys-D is seen in team preview, everyone knows that it is going to lead. All one has to do is send in their counter first turn. This will give their team great momentum or will cripple Deoxys-D. Not to say that it is bad, but I don't think it is S Rank because S Rank is given to potential suspects. Deoxys-D is still an amazing wall, but it, by no means, needs to be banned.

Lastly, I'd like to hit on the topic of two last Pokemon: Ferrothorn, and because of the last post I read before typing this, Salamence.
Ferrothorn deserves to be A Rank. To quote the thread a support Pokemon in A Rank: "may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time."
That fits it perfectly. It sometimes gives opponents free turns in setting up, but it can usually survive a turn and effectively do what it is meant to do: set up hazards and possibly even T-wave. With the right support, this thing can become an atrocity.

Salamence is by no means a B Rank Pokemon. With Intimidate, it can easily create a free turn, set up a DD and proceed to sweep at faster speed than most if not all non-scarfed Pokemon. At +1 it hits extremely hard. SR is not necessarily a problem either because mence also gets Roost. And let's not forget CS+Moxie. Mence is very versatile and, imo, better than even Dragonite, especially in the amount of support it needs.

Also, I read someone's suggestion to split the B Rank in two. I agree completely with this because it is getting really crowded in there and some of those Pokemon are obviously better than others. Especially if and when we add the neglected UU pokes in there.

I didn't feel like re-typing all of this so I am going to re-post a shortened version. This is because I feel that the only arguments that were made from reading this were of Salamence, which was a pretty obvious answer anyways, and that of Deoxys-D staying S Rank. I've highlighted in Bold what I feel should be discussed now that those issues have been resolved.

 

[Keldeo333]

Really? A S-Rank Pokemon must not be outclasses in any manner. So you're telling me that Mew is a better special wall than Jirachi, in this current metagame. Wow. Who takes a Hurricane better from the big threat, Tornadus-T? Who walls the Titan Latios better? Mew or Jirachi? How bout the Empresses Latias? Mew? Really? Just by virtue of typing, Jirachi is a substantially better wall. Mew is heavily outclassed in this respect. Physical Wall+Pivot? Celebi has more resistances to abuse. Celebi has Natural Cure to use. Celebi is able to form Defensive Cores much easier than Mew can. CeleTran? What ever happened to Mew? Is he outclassed? Hope not, cause that it just another reason to keep him outta S-Tier. You don't want to compare a suspect S-Tier pokemon to lower A/B Tier Pokemon. Why? Because Mew is outclassed in certain regards. An S-Tier Pokemon cannot be outclassed. Is Deoxys-D/Genesect/Politoed/Terrakion outclassed? Are there Pokemon that can do their job better? No.

So you're telling me that Terrakion, Genesect and Politoed can take Draco Meteors or Hurricanes better than Jirachi? An S-Tier Pokemon cannot be outclassed. Way to contradict yourself bro.

Really? Baton Pass chains are hard to break, so of course you'll win with the right cards and play. Just because Mew can pass these things, it's S-Tier? Wow.
Look at Quiver Dance Venomoth. Might as well use that, as Quiver Dance is Calm Mind, Amensia, and Flame Charge in ONE move. Plus Venomoth can pass off a Sub. Oh yea. Subpassing? Mew is not as good as Mienshao let's say. Mienshao gets Swords Dance and Regenerator. What more can I say.

Mew is one of the best baton passers due to good bulk and an amazing movepool can't believe you're even trying to argue over this.

Wow. All of a sudden Mew has attained the level of Terrakion and Swords Dance. What is Mew's STAB. Zen Headbutt. Great. Terrakion gets Stone Edge and Close Combat that LITERALLY shreds the metagame apart. Mew's unstabbed Drain Punch or ZenHeadbutt won't be doing stuff to things like Gliscor, Jirachi, Skarmory, Tornadus-T.

Did I say Swords Dance Mew was better at sweeping than Terrakion? Anyways
Mew can always just switch out of Skarmory or run Fire Punch. Not Gliscor or Jirachi or Tornadus T since they are 2HKO'd and Tornadus is OHKO'd by Sucker Punch after Rocks not to mention if Jirachi wants to paralize Mew, Jirachi will too be paralized crippling it for the rest of the match.

Lucario was brought up? Look. Lucario, SD, ES can handle Thundurus-Therian and Tornadus-Therian. It can also take out Landorus with prior damage.

So can Mew. Anyways Swords Dance Mew is more of a bulky sweeper Drain Punch lets it recover health so it can stick around and get more KO's.

Mienshao. Just please.

Another advantage Mew has over other sweepers is of course access to Baton pass, Mew can run two moves with Baton Pass and Nasty Plot/Swords Dance if you can't take out an opponent simply pass the boost to someone who can.

loltakealookatgliscor. Gliscor has Poison Heal, Taunt, SR, Roost, Ground-Flying typing which is way better than mono-Psychic. Gliscor also has Toxic, Sub, Protect. Sure Mew can stallbreak. But take a look at this bat first.

I still find Stallbreaker Mew better. Any good player can work around Gliscor. Not even fire types can counter Mew's stallbreaker set because I run EQ for Heatran or other fire types who try to switch into Will-O-Wisp.

I have yet to see those run around rampant. But if you're bringing Mew up like this then introduce yourself to Aerodactyl and Azelf. Higher Base Speed, Taunt, Explosion, Stealth Rock. Prankster Whimsicott or Sableye can taunt, then proceed to Leech, U-Turn, WoW, Sub, Toxic, Encore, Whatever. Terrakion+Focus Sash+SR. Infernape+SR.

Magic Coat.

Wow. Stealth Rock Leads are only good when your opponent lacks a spinner anyway. Sacrificing a Mon to SR, then have it spun away is stupid.

Your opinion. Besides it's very difficult to spin against HO teams.

...He's deadly until we see his first move. Generally speaking a Mew is pretty readable after he exposes 1-2 of his moves. His sets honestly are not that impossible to find out. I've played Mew and have played against Mews too. I have yet to find myself going crazy because I can't identify the set. It just doesn't happen.

See this is because people barely use Mew who knows why maybe most people think it's still Uber or something. And I honestly doubt you have ever used Mew based on all your arguments. Look just because you don't like Mew or another pokemon doesn't mean it should be in a lower tier. My favorite pokemon is Keldeo and you don't see me giving arguments on why it should be S rank because he's just an A rank pokemon. If Deoxys D can be S rank who only does one thing and is fairly predictable and should only be able to get at most rocks up against a good player than Mew should too who can do a lot more. No spikes doesn't justify why Mew shouldn't be S rank. Mew fits the S rank criteria:

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

 

[TheOnyx]

"So you're telling me that Terrakion, Genesect and Politoed can take Draco Meteors or Hurricanes better than Jirachi? An S-Tier Pokemon cannot be outclassed. Way to contradict yourself bro." The thing is Terrakion, Genesect, and Politoed aren't used as Special Walls. Nothing outclasses them (with their roles), unlike how many things outclass Mew for it's variety of roles. Sure Mew can do many things, but really it's a solid C-B rank.

 

[Tressed]

I would like to nominate Infernape to rank B.

I dont know why is no one using infernape recently when he completely destroys every single steel-typed pokemon in the metagame. He is also very unpredictable. One can use the banded set,the mixed set or the scarfed set an the opponent can not be sure which set is used. Infernrape can also efficiently beat the offensive part of the metagame because of its typing and speed.
The fire/fighting type makes it a great pokemon for good offensive pressure, also infernape can be very efficiently used in volt-turn teams or it can simple play a role of taking momentum. Its high speed and decent attack make it a great pokemon. In my opinon Infernape should be put in rank B it has the power, good movepool, speed and it is unpredictable.

Infernape is decent, I'll give you that, but its low bulk and having one of its STABs halved int the most common weather isn't doing it any good. If you want to use Infernape to the very best of its ability, you need to be running Ninetales alongside it, which is enough of a reason not to use it, although Abomasnow or either Hippowdon or Tyranitar can work okay. Its just that with the current meta, Infernape can't really switch in and out, and its power is rather average. Infernape's only real niche is a Fire type with U-Turn that isn't SR weak, because its other sets are usually outclassed. It can be good in the right situations.

Regarding the Mew discussion...

"So you're telling me that Terrakion, Genesect and Politoed can take Draco Meteors or Hurricanes better than Jirachi? An S-Tier Pokemon cannot be outclassed. Way to contradict yourself bro." The thing is Terrakion, Genesect, and Politoed aren't used as Special Walls. Nothing outclasses them (with their roles), unlike how many things outclass Mew for it's variety of roles. Sure Mew can do many things, but really it's a solid C-B rank.

You basically summed up my feeling about Mew. It can do many, many things, but its competition is almost always better than it for that job. The only set I feel Mew isn't outclassed at is the SR+Normal Gem+Explosion, because it can take a hit while setting up SR, allowing it to severely dent its opponent.

 

[TheOnyx]

What i'm trying to say Keldeo, is that even though Mew can do nearly anything, something else does that thing better. Just cause it's versatile, doesn't mean it's best at those things it can do.

 

[emirinho]

Well in my opinion infernape already doesnt need bulk his main roles are to hit hard and go out or revnge kill. It can be very useful as a scouter. About it stabs only Lati@s and jellicent completely counter them so infernape, when used properly, can be a great threat. By looking at the definition of rank B one can understand that infernape can actually fit in there.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

So, infernape cannot sweep through the whole metagame, OK.
However, when it comes to breaking defensive walls, scouting, revenge killing or taking any offensive role infernape is a great option. Infernape can fit almost in any offensive role with any approach (physical or special) which makes it very unpredictable. And infernape does all these jobs very nicely.

 

[TheOnyx]

See this is because people barely use Mew who knows why maybe most people think it's still Uber or something. And I honestly doubt you have ever used Mew based on all your arguments. Look just because you don't like Mew or another pokemon doesn't mean it should be in a lower tier. My favorite pokemon is Keldeo and you don't see me giving arguments on why it should be S rank because he's just an A rank pokemon. If Deoxys D can be S rank who only does one thing and is fairly predictable and should only be able to get at most rocks up against a good player than Mew should too who can do a lot more. No spikes doesn't justify why Mew shouldn't be S rank. Mew fits the S rank criteria:
Quote:
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

You see, it seems that Mew can do many different roles, and it can, but it does them mediocre at best, compared to other pokes. Sure your opponent won't know it's set at first, but even then after it reveals 1-2 moves, you pretty much know then. Compared to other pokes in OU Mew is not that special.

 

[PDC]

Infernape is just not a good Pokemon in BW2 sadly. It deserves to stay in C Rank as it just cannot succeed to the levels of higher ranked Pokemon which typically outclass it as a sweeper. Infernape seems like it would be great due to it's high speed and solid offensive stats, but the truth is it really lacks any offensive presence in this metagame especially with the new threats introduced. For one Latias has been reintroduced into the metagame, one of the best counters to Infernape. It only fears a weaker U-Turn or Hidden Power Ice, which even then it doesn't hurt it that bad. Jellicent and Tentacruel are also much more common in this metagame than in DPP, or in Jellicent's case is a whole new threat in the metagame which puts a full stop to Infernape unless you choose to run something obscure like Thunderpunch, or maybe Grass Knot. Rain is also very prevalent in the metagame and really kills of one of it's main STABs. Infernape just can't manage to do sufficient damage to many teams in the metagame due to the amount of threats that just shut it down completely. Tornadus - T, Latias, Reuniclus, Rotom-W, Dragonite and Politoed are all very common in this metagame and can shut down Infernape. It is hard for him to actually break walls in stall teams due to the prevelance of Starmie. It can't really do much in the face of the metagame with all the common threats that destroy it.

Infernape is also partially outclassed by Pokemkn like Terrakion and Breloom who are stronger and have acess to a better movepool. They also have a much wider variety of options to choose from. Infernape gets worn down a lot and just can't hang onto dominance as it did in Gen 4. I don't really think he distinctly does anything better than other sweepers in the metagame. It had a great niche back then in breaking the SkarmBliss core to pieces but because of usage of those two have dropped together as a combo it's uses in stall breaking have gone down. It's Swords Dance set only has the advantage of speed and a Fire STAB over Breloom, but it's priority is much weaker. Infernape belongs in C Rank, it just isn't good this generation

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

At this point I am opening up this discussion to the higher and more experienced members of Smogon.

Mew sucks.

Well its not that bad...Its C teir, B tier at best. Its only good set is a defensive wall breaking or utility set. If you run anything else, something else outclasses it. The only thing it has going for it is diversity, but really, if you are running it as a baton pass pokemon, which is pretty much its only viable set outside of utility / stall breaking (not really but its better than anything else I can think of that bad people use) that diversity again is not helping you, you should just be using a better baton pass pokemon.

Also its pursuit weak, and Genesect weak.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

Can we just stop talking about Mew please? Keldeo333, not to be rude, but you should realize that everyone disagrees with you and move on...
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However, more importantly, I would like to nominate Ferrothorn for A-tier.

Honestly there is probably not any Pokemon in OU that is such a useful utility Pokemon, and it has a pretty nice movepool for a support Pokemon. With Spikes and Stealth Rock within its reach, it automatically is a great support Pokemon in a game where entry hazards are so useful for KOs. However, it has a lot of stuff that makes it at an advantage over Forretress, Skarmory, and other Pokemon in the metagame. Grass/Steel is one of the best typings in the whole game, and while its weak to Fighting, it is capable of dealing with many, many, many Water-types such as Politoed, Gastrodon, and more. Its typing also does other helpful things for it - I've seen many Latias unable to damage Ferrothorn while I did a considerable amount back to it with Gyro Ball and Leech Seed. Speaking of Leech Seed, that move is outsanding, capable of racking up a ton of residual damage on the foe. Most Pokemon hate it a lot. Ferrothorn can also suprise foes with its inability to let them set up. You got a Terrakion? If Ferrothorn can predict a switch and use Gyro Ball, it is not a happy Terrakion to say the least.

The dominance of rain is also very useful for Ferrothorn in many ways. It takes nothing from Politoed, Jolteon is useless against it, it OHKOs Gastrodon easily, and even the occasional Rain Stallers that show up find it difficult to get Ferrothorn out of the way - without Toxicroak or a Therian, Rain teams really struggle against Ferrothorn without a lucky burn from Scald (which isn't unseen for sure). On the defensive end, Ferrothorn is also a very capable Pokemon in the rain, where most Hidden Power Fires do pathetic damage without a boost, and unlike Forretress it has the bulk to take Special hits - 74/131/116 defenses are really good on both sides and the average HP being mitigated by those great defenses helps it to get back up there with Leech Seed easier.

Finally, Ferrothorn is excellent against a Dragon-type Pokemon that is locked into Outrage or using Draco Metoer. Ferrothorn takes on Draco Metoers better than most Steel-types too. Salamences, Garchomps, and Kyurem-Bs locked into Outrage are almost useless against Ferrothorn, and residual damage from Iron Barbs and Leech Seed, in addition to a possible Gyro Ball hit. Heck, I've found Kyurem-B mediocre almost for the sole purpose of Ferrothorn, I kid you not! Latios is checked even with Hidden Power, as a Draco Meteor won't do that much, and a -2 Hidden Power Fire, possibly when combined with Rain, is not doing enough to make Ferrothorn fold but a Gyro Ball will hurt.

While the right moves can take it out easily and it suffers from some competition, Ferrothorn is definently a Pokemon deserving of A-Rank. It has so many useful traits, and there is a big reason why it is used a considerable amount more than other Steel-types.

 

[FaceFaceFace]

I think the largest downside to Ferrothorn is that it gets trapped by Zone rather easily, and it takes either neutral/ heavy damage from all the big hitters in the meta right now - especially the fighting types such as Loom and Terrakion, and neutral from Tornadus-T's Hurricane (which also means massive damage). Not to mention if you put a Sub against Ferrothorn, SpikySeedMan pretty much becomes set-up bait.
As a wall, it's not that great anymore; even as a support, Jirachi is probably better, faster, and a lot more deadly.

 

[eriados]

Tabuu, can you calm down? there's no need to get so worked up. you're coming of as a real jerk.anyway,I think Jirachi should really be S-rank. It can run a ton of sets, from the classic specially defensive which walls a ton of the metagame, including another S-rank poke, to the CM set, which is an incredibly threatening sweeper in it's own right, and many other sets, like the Scarf revenge killer. The fact that Jirachi can do so many different thins and do well at them too, convinces me that it should be S-rank.