I would back Jirachi in S-Rank. It's only disadvantage is not hitting hard enough against a few key foes, but it's so useful in general.
And evil.
And evil.
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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
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I'd back Jirachi for S-tier. With just a little support (latias walls the powerful waters that can beat it and land-i) it walls teams for days, paralyzing anything that dares to switch in. "Low opportunity cost". Passes wishes, ect. It walls Latios with ease, few things in OU can. Back in the tornadus-t days it was the best counter for it, and it still walls torn-i. It frequently lives to end game because of how amazing it is defensively, and its wishes and para are top tier support. It's sweeping isn't bad either, since the water pulse subcm set can beat ferrothorn and blissey, still spread para and confusion mayhem, and be very difficult to bring down. In short, many roles.
On the subject of Jirachi being S Rank... I could see Jirachi being S-Rank. It might be somewhat of a low S-Rank, because I wouldn't say it's capable of the same kind of destruction that say, Terrakion, Politoed, or Landorus can cause, but it has a ton of viable, effective sets, most of which are very hard to replicate by any other pokemon. For example, the only other real Paraflincher is Togekiss, who suffers certain drawbacks such as a Stealth Rock weakness. It's Scarf set has some incredible coverage and good speed, like a weaker Genesect, and it's SubCM sets are notorious for being annoying to take down. Not to mention, it's one of the few pokemon capable of Wish Support.
Overall, I'd say that Jirachi could be in S-Rank not because it is necessarily as vicious or game-changing like the other S-Ranks, but because of it's sheer diversity and possibilities, all of which it can pull off well and usually better than most others. Also, going by definitions...
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.
Jirachi can wall most special attackers in the metagame with it's Specially Defensive set (although boosted Rain/Sun attacks hurt), or can sweep with it's CM sets. It doesn't provide free turns because it can either threaten with paralysis or set up, while it provides Wish support to it's teammates. It only has two weaknesses, one of which is removed by Rain. I already mentioned that it's incredibly diverse. (A quality that the other S-Ranks lack in just slightly.) Overall, I think it's worthy of S-Rank.
Overall, I'd say that Jirachi could be in S-Rank not because it is necessarily as vicious or game-changing like the other S-Ranks, but because of it's sheer diversity and possibilities, all of which it can pull off well and usually better than most others. Also, going by definitions...
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.
Jirachi can wall most special attackers in the metagame with it's Specially Defensive set (although boosted Rain/Sun attacks hurt), or can sweep with it's CM sets. It doesn't provide free turns because it can either threaten with paralysis or set up, while it provides Wish support to it's teammates. It only has two weaknesses, one of which is removed by Rain. I already mentioned that it's incredibly diverse. (A quality that the other S-Ranks lack in just slightly.) Overall, I think it's worthy of S-Rank.
I don't think there's even any point in listing Bisharp on an OU viability list, given how little usage it receives (#139 last month). Sure, Kabutops may be on the list in D-rank and it was actually used less often than Bisharp (#152), though it does have a niche in the current metagame that has been recognised by a fair-few good players. Bisharp on the otherhand; if you of a decent player that runs it in OU, be my guest. It could possibly have one or two attributes that let do something in OU, but then again so does pretty much everything else in UU/RU.
Jirachi may be incredibly versatile and unpredictable, but I don't think that it's S-tier material. Amazing 'mon, though it's not nearly as dominant as the other S-tier candidates. The CM sets often seem to get walled hard by something depending on what set you're running, and ultimately relying on paraflinch can only get you so far.
Jirachi may be incredibly versatile and unpredictable, but I don't think that it's S-tier material. Amazing 'mon, though it's not nearly as dominant as the other S-tier candidates. The CM sets often seem to get walled hard by something depending on what set you're running, and ultimately relying on paraflinch can only get you so far.
I understand that. That's why I think Jirachi is somewhat of a low S-Rank. I would still say that it fits the requirements and criteria of S-Rank pokemon more than it does A-Rank pokemon. However, I can certainly understand why it might be held back.
By the way, I'm interested in what people think about Togekiss in OU. Does it have any value in the metagame? Is it capable of holding it's own? Does it have anything over Jirachi?
I think C-Rank sounds good for it, since I've used it in the past to good extent, although it did have a few flaws, like Stealth Rocks... What does everyone else think?
I think C-Rank sounds good for it, since I've used it in the past to good extent, although it did have a few flaws, like Stealth Rocks... What does everyone else think?
Lavos
Banned deucer.
jirachi's pretty a-rank if you ask me. sure, i realize it has tons of potential and excellent versatility with the ability to run pretty much any set, but the simple fact that it's a base 100 'mon all around prevents it from really laying into things with offensive sets, and inconvenient weaknesses to fire and ground types, plus the fact that one scald burn cripples it for the entire battle, makes its paraflinching set less than optimal for the current metagame. to be honest, there's not a lot of things jirachi does anymore that other pokemon can't do better. its only set that truly is not outclassed by anything else is the specially defensive rain wall, with max/max+ in hp and sdef, running something along the lines of protect/wish/thunder/iron head. being able to 2hko most scald users before they get the chance to fire off multiple potential burns is nice, and jirachi's still one of the few things left that can wall life orb latios under rain. unfortunately, even unboosted keldeo's rain hydro pumps are doing well over 50% to this thing.
jirachi comes close to s-rank, but it really doesn't have the level of sheer power or brokenness that terrakion and deo-d can claim. definitely high a-rank, but the fact that what used to be great stats are now mediocre, coupled with the reasoning that most of its sets are outclassed by something else, mean it's not ready for the spotlight quite yet.
jirachi comes close to s-rank, but it really doesn't have the level of sheer power or brokenness that terrakion and deo-d can claim. definitely high a-rank, but the fact that what used to be great stats are now mediocre, coupled with the reasoning that most of its sets are outclassed by something else, mean it's not ready for the spotlight quite yet.
Jirachi is a high A Rank Pokemon and it should stay there imo. Here is my reasoning: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4470076&postcount=622
D rank is pointless, Kabutops and Chandelure should be moved to C. Chandelure can spinblock against Forretress at least, while its stabs are very powerful and surprisingly difficult to wall with a simple sub + stabs + hp fight set. Shadow ball hurts bulky waters that normally wall fire types. It's not that good, but it is better than D tier relative to what is in C tier. Kabutops is C tier as well. It can rapid spin(!) and 2HKO every common spin blocker with stone edge or waterfall. It gets a swift swim boost in rain and can take out Ferrothorn with superpower, something Kingdra can't do. It also means that rain teams can't wall it on default like Starmie. I've used it alot in the past and it definitely C tier.
I'd like to petition Hydreigon to be moved from B Rank to A Rank. Ever since Genesect came to OU, Hydreigon was given the cold shoulder in team building since Genesect could pretty much OHKO Hydreigon with two of it coverage moves, one being STAB, and what's worse is that it was on 50% of teams, which meant Hydreigon needed a lot of team support in order to get it to fulfill it's niche on a team. Although Hydreigon is still plagued with a terrible defensive typing in Dark, leaving it weak to Fighting type priority and U-Turn, Genesect is now Uber, which means Hydreigon has the ability to shine again.
What many don't seem to realize is that similar to Kyurem-B, NOTHING can really safely switch into it's moves. Hydreigon has one of the best mixed capabilities of all Dragons in the tier, and a great special/physical move pool to take advantage of it. As some of you may know, I have recently built a really successful team with a friend of mine that was centered around Hydreigon, and after countless amounts of tests and pitting my own teams against this team, I have learned that Mixed Hydreigon is one of the most terrifying things to face in OU. There's really no way to prepare for it, you just have to pray that the opponent doesn't get a free switch into you with Hydreigon. The Mixed LO set consisting of Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Superpower / Roost or Earthquake or Dark Pulse can hit pretty much the entire OU tier for super effective damage or extremely hard. The goal of this set is to lure in obvious counters and checks such as Blissey, Heatran, and Mamoswine, and being able to OHKO back with the right coverage move. Both the pink blobs and Max HP Heatran are comfortably 2HKOed by Superpower (Chansey is possibly 3, but fuck Chansey), while Standard LO Mamoswine is OHKOed after rocks (and yes he can tank an Ice Shard even after SR). Hydreigon can still use Draco Meteor on the predicted Forretress, Scizor, and Ferrothorn switch and still OHKO them all with a -2 Fire Blast while having a decent chance of OHKOing the latter after Stealth Rocks. That's quite amazing, which shows that not even Steel types can safely switch into Hydreigon. The only hard counter that I've seen who can switch into any of it's moves, is SpD Jellicent, because it's immune to Superpower, is 3HKOed by Draco, and resists Fire Blast. Other than that though Hydreigon is extremely hard to switch into. If the opponent gets a free switch with the Hydreigon, your most likely going to have to sack something. It's quite easy to get free switch momentum with Hydreigon anyway since he forces so many switches.
All in all, Hydreigon may not be the fastest and best Dragon defensively, but offensively he is one of the most dangerous dragons in OU, and easily defines the word "uncounterable". Unlike most Dragons, he needs little team support to be effective, and can easily threaten anything even at the very start of the battle. With the vast amount of sets Hydreigon can run, he's quite easy to fit on a team, since he can be a great Scarfer, Specs user, and even a great Sub Rooster like Kyurem. However, nothing compares to his mixed sets, which scares the shit out of any team that crosses it. Since his move pool is huge, he can easily adjust to your team's weaknesses. If your team has a huge problem against bulky Psychic and Ghost types, then Dark Pulse is a great STAB to threaten Reuniclus and Jellicent. If your team hates Sub CM Rain Rachi, then EQ can prevent it from setting up on you and is a better move to nab the OHKO on Max HP Heatran. If your team doesn't really seem to have any specific problems, then Roost can be used to improve it's longevity and to compensate for the LO recoil. If put in the hands of the right player, Hydreigon is easily:
"A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.
Also, he looks like a badass. That alone should give him an A-Rank :D.
What many don't seem to realize is that similar to Kyurem-B, NOTHING can really safely switch into it's moves. Hydreigon has one of the best mixed capabilities of all Dragons in the tier, and a great special/physical move pool to take advantage of it. As some of you may know, I have recently built a really successful team with a friend of mine that was centered around Hydreigon, and after countless amounts of tests and pitting my own teams against this team, I have learned that Mixed Hydreigon is one of the most terrifying things to face in OU. There's really no way to prepare for it, you just have to pray that the opponent doesn't get a free switch into you with Hydreigon. The Mixed LO set consisting of Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Superpower / Roost or Earthquake or Dark Pulse can hit pretty much the entire OU tier for super effective damage or extremely hard. The goal of this set is to lure in obvious counters and checks such as Blissey, Heatran, and Mamoswine, and being able to OHKO back with the right coverage move. Both the pink blobs and Max HP Heatran are comfortably 2HKOed by Superpower (Chansey is possibly 3, but fuck Chansey), while Standard LO Mamoswine is OHKOed after rocks (and yes he can tank an Ice Shard even after SR). Hydreigon can still use Draco Meteor on the predicted Forretress, Scizor, and Ferrothorn switch and still OHKO them all with a -2 Fire Blast while having a decent chance of OHKOing the latter after Stealth Rocks. That's quite amazing, which shows that not even Steel types can safely switch into Hydreigon. The only hard counter that I've seen who can switch into any of it's moves, is SpD Jellicent, because it's immune to Superpower, is 3HKOed by Draco, and resists Fire Blast. Other than that though Hydreigon is extremely hard to switch into. If the opponent gets a free switch with the Hydreigon, your most likely going to have to sack something. It's quite easy to get free switch momentum with Hydreigon anyway since he forces so many switches.
All in all, Hydreigon may not be the fastest and best Dragon defensively, but offensively he is one of the most dangerous dragons in OU, and easily defines the word "uncounterable". Unlike most Dragons, he needs little team support to be effective, and can easily threaten anything even at the very start of the battle. With the vast amount of sets Hydreigon can run, he's quite easy to fit on a team, since he can be a great Scarfer, Specs user, and even a great Sub Rooster like Kyurem. However, nothing compares to his mixed sets, which scares the shit out of any team that crosses it. Since his move pool is huge, he can easily adjust to your team's weaknesses. If your team has a huge problem against bulky Psychic and Ghost types, then Dark Pulse is a great STAB to threaten Reuniclus and Jellicent. If your team hates Sub CM Rain Rachi, then EQ can prevent it from setting up on you and is a better move to nab the OHKO on Max HP Heatran. If your team doesn't really seem to have any specific problems, then Roost can be used to improve it's longevity and to compensate for the LO recoil. If put in the hands of the right player, Hydreigon is easily:
"A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.
Also, he looks like a badass. That alone should give him an A-Rank :D.
I second this.
Landorus is overrated. Landorus relies on super effective attacks to Sweep. LO lando is checked by many faster pokemon and scarf lando is outright weak.
golurk really needs to be on this list, dude's got a fantastic niche and i've been using him to great success lately
Golurk @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Punch
i started playing pokemon again yesterday and was getting really mad at how powerful terrakion is, so i decided to do something about it. golurk's got one of the most interesting typings in the game, and is one of the few hard counters to any kind of terrakion.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golurk: 102-120 (26.7 - 31.41%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golurk: 176-207 (46.07 - 54.18%) -- 58.59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Golurk Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 284-336 (87.65 - 103.7%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
that's not even factoring in stone edge's shaky accuracy. but golurk does a lot more than just beat up on terrakion. he stops jirachi cold (does anyone even use the wpulse one anymore?), being immune to both its paralysis moves, as well as:
0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golurk: 72-85 (18.84 - 22.25%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock
meanwhile you do 64-76% with eq, meaning unless they flinch you like five straight times you're getting that 2hko. he's also damned good against scizor:
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golurk: 180-212 (47.12 - 55.49%) -- 74.22% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 312-368 (90.96 - 107.28%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
calc doesn't really make sense since you're never switching into a pursuit but still. bullet punch does like 35-40%, u-turn does 20-24%. people also tend to switch scizor into my golurk a lot for some reason, i guess whenever anyone sees a ghost they expect to be able to gib it with pursuit? idk
he's also really strong vs the lando bros (which my opponents tend to lead with a lot since i run sand, so i lead golurk and cause some problems for them). vs sheer force and scarf lando-t:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Golurk: 274-324 (71.72 - 84.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Sand Force Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golurk in sand: 172-204 (45.02 - 53.4%) -- 35.16% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 340-404 (106.58 - 126.64%) -- guaranteed OHKO
i've been running into a lot of scarf landos for some reason, i thought people had realized that theyre not great. anyway u-turn does 8-9% which is funny.
then vs lando-t it's a bit trickier but still pretty good
64+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golurk: 144-169 (37.69 - 44.24%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 0 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 200 HP / 244 Def Landorus-T: 180-212 (48.78 - 57.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
its uturns also hit for 8-10%. after intimidate you still do a decent amount ice punch. i guess you could tweak the evs and put a few into attack so you always do 50% min but ive not found it necessary yet.
he also does well vs dragonite, being able to switch into nite on the dd, tank a +1 outrage even after rocks, and ohko back with ice punch.
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golurk: 274-324 (71.72 - 84.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 328-388 (101.54 - 120.12%) -- guaranteed OHKO
as for garchomp, i dont really know what sets of his are popular right now but golurk can survive a +2 outrage after rocks sometimes (as long as its not LO) and potentially ohko back with ice punch (but then he dies to rough skin, rip golurk)
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golurk: 325-384 (85.07 - 100.52%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 328-388 (91.62 - 108.37%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
again, you could tweak the evs to make it so you always ohko with ice punch after chomp has taken rocks damage, but im not sure how relevant that is since it doesn't help vs leftovers or yachi. so yeah, not the safest garchomp answer, but an ok one in a pinch.
it's neat too that he's a spinblocker, he's not that reliable at it but seeing how my team runs gothitelle to beat tenta and tyranitar/gothitelle to beat starmie, the only other relevant one is forretress and this guy wrecks his shit.
0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (48 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golurk: 40-48 (10.47 - 12.56%) -- 9HKO at best
0 SpA Forretress Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Golurk: 80-96 (20.94 - 25.13%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Forretress: 188-224 (53.1 - 63.27%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
idk if anyone's still using that hp ice forretress stuff. you're also immune to volt switch so there is absolutely nothing scary about forretress. oh i guess there's also donphan? you both 4-5ko each other with ice punch vs eq, but since you're 5 base speed faster you'll probably win.
i'll post more relevant calcs as they come to me, but yeah, this guy is good. tanks u-turns like nobody's business, and its pretty cool to have a terrakion counter and a jirachi counter in one mon. it's pretty cool to have a terrakion counter in general, actually. he can tank a couple scalds, especially if it's sandy, which on my team it usually is, since im running specs goth and cbtar, meaning i always win the weather war except in cases where they crit/are running 252 speed focus blast specs politoed but does anyone even run that i mean really. his main weakness that i've found is rotom-w, which is troubling due to how popular rotom-w is. i run specs goth which beats sp def rotom-w, but vs the ones that invest in speed i usually have to wear them down with sr damage and 10-15% hits from golurk punches.
here are some replays that will give you an idea of how this guy works.
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou9033340 golurk really carries my team here. as i said before, rotom-w is a serious problem so i just pray it's a sp def one and try to psyshock it to near-death, but things don't go exactly as planned. or do they???????
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou9032843 here he does some real damage based on surprise factor alone. vs this team there wasn't anything he could really tank so i just played him super aggressively. my latias psyshock on keldeo was really terrible, draco meteor would have ko'd too and would also have probably ohko'd tar on the switch-in and kept my latias alive!!!
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou9008219 this is with the first version of my team which didn't make a whole lot of sense ('why do i have so much trouble with heatran??? oh wait...'), but golurk shows off his chops here as a fantastic jirachi answer.
so yeah i dunno, golurk for c-tier. with a bit more testing i might argue in favour of b since there's literally no other mon like him, but for now i'm being conservative.
Golurk @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Punch
i started playing pokemon again yesterday and was getting really mad at how powerful terrakion is, so i decided to do something about it. golurk's got one of the most interesting typings in the game, and is one of the few hard counters to any kind of terrakion.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golurk: 102-120 (26.7 - 31.41%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golurk: 176-207 (46.07 - 54.18%) -- 58.59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Golurk Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 284-336 (87.65 - 103.7%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
that's not even factoring in stone edge's shaky accuracy. but golurk does a lot more than just beat up on terrakion. he stops jirachi cold (does anyone even use the wpulse one anymore?), being immune to both its paralysis moves, as well as:
0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golurk: 72-85 (18.84 - 22.25%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock
meanwhile you do 64-76% with eq, meaning unless they flinch you like five straight times you're getting that 2hko. he's also damned good against scizor:
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golurk: 180-212 (47.12 - 55.49%) -- 74.22% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 312-368 (90.96 - 107.28%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
calc doesn't really make sense since you're never switching into a pursuit but still. bullet punch does like 35-40%, u-turn does 20-24%. people also tend to switch scizor into my golurk a lot for some reason, i guess whenever anyone sees a ghost they expect to be able to gib it with pursuit? idk
he's also really strong vs the lando bros (which my opponents tend to lead with a lot since i run sand, so i lead golurk and cause some problems for them). vs sheer force and scarf lando-t:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Golurk: 274-324 (71.72 - 84.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Sand Force Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golurk in sand: 172-204 (45.02 - 53.4%) -- 35.16% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 340-404 (106.58 - 126.64%) -- guaranteed OHKO
i've been running into a lot of scarf landos for some reason, i thought people had realized that theyre not great. anyway u-turn does 8-9% which is funny.
then vs lando-t it's a bit trickier but still pretty good
64+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golurk: 144-169 (37.69 - 44.24%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 0 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 200 HP / 244 Def Landorus-T: 180-212 (48.78 - 57.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
its uturns also hit for 8-10%. after intimidate you still do a decent amount ice punch. i guess you could tweak the evs and put a few into attack so you always do 50% min but ive not found it necessary yet.
he also does well vs dragonite, being able to switch into nite on the dd, tank a +1 outrage even after rocks, and ohko back with ice punch.
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golurk: 274-324 (71.72 - 84.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 328-388 (101.54 - 120.12%) -- guaranteed OHKO
as for garchomp, i dont really know what sets of his are popular right now but golurk can survive a +2 outrage after rocks sometimes (as long as its not LO) and potentially ohko back with ice punch (but then he dies to rough skin, rip golurk)
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golurk: 325-384 (85.07 - 100.52%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 328-388 (91.62 - 108.37%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
again, you could tweak the evs to make it so you always ohko with ice punch after chomp has taken rocks damage, but im not sure how relevant that is since it doesn't help vs leftovers or yachi. so yeah, not the safest garchomp answer, but an ok one in a pinch.
it's neat too that he's a spinblocker, he's not that reliable at it but seeing how my team runs gothitelle to beat tenta and tyranitar/gothitelle to beat starmie, the only other relevant one is forretress and this guy wrecks his shit.
0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (48 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golurk: 40-48 (10.47 - 12.56%) -- 9HKO at best
0 SpA Forretress Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Golurk: 80-96 (20.94 - 25.13%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Forretress: 188-224 (53.1 - 63.27%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
idk if anyone's still using that hp ice forretress stuff. you're also immune to volt switch so there is absolutely nothing scary about forretress. oh i guess there's also donphan? you both 4-5ko each other with ice punch vs eq, but since you're 5 base speed faster you'll probably win.
i'll post more relevant calcs as they come to me, but yeah, this guy is good. tanks u-turns like nobody's business, and its pretty cool to have a terrakion counter and a jirachi counter in one mon. it's pretty cool to have a terrakion counter in general, actually. he can tank a couple scalds, especially if it's sandy, which on my team it usually is, since im running specs goth and cbtar, meaning i always win the weather war except in cases where they crit/are running 252 speed focus blast specs politoed but does anyone even run that i mean really. his main weakness that i've found is rotom-w, which is troubling due to how popular rotom-w is. i run specs goth which beats sp def rotom-w, but vs the ones that invest in speed i usually have to wear them down with sr damage and 10-15% hits from golurk punches.
here are some replays that will give you an idea of how this guy works.
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou9033340 golurk really carries my team here. as i said before, rotom-w is a serious problem so i just pray it's a sp def one and try to psyshock it to near-death, but things don't go exactly as planned. or do they???????
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou9032843 here he does some real damage based on surprise factor alone. vs this team there wasn't anything he could really tank so i just played him super aggressively. my latias psyshock on keldeo was really terrible, draco meteor would have ko'd too and would also have probably ohko'd tar on the switch-in and kept my latias alive!!!
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou9008219 this is with the first version of my team which didn't make a whole lot of sense ('why do i have so much trouble with heatran??? oh wait...'), but golurk shows off his chops here as a fantastic jirachi answer.
so yeah i dunno, golurk for c-tier. with a bit more testing i might argue in favour of b since there's literally no other mon like him, but for now i'm being conservative.
MCBarrett
i love it when you call me big hoppa
I actually remember battling you today and i remembered that my CB tyranitar gave your team a ton of trouble and it just so happens that offensive versions of tyranitar definitely give golurk problems. With CB Crunch/pursuit on the switch from adamant max attack ttar doing 105% minimum damage. Also jolly scarf ttar with max attack does 64-75%.
However, other than that flaw, and obviously others, i would definitely agree that golurk should be a c-rank. He walls some key threats while being able to set up hazards, spin block, and be an offensive threat all at the same time. There is nothing else in ou like him and his stats, movepool and typing allow him to avoid becoming dead weight as long as the team has proper support around it.
However, other than that flaw, and obviously others, i would definitely agree that golurk should be a c-rank. He walls some key threats while being able to set up hazards, spin block, and be an offensive threat all at the same time. There is nothing else in ou like him and his stats, movepool and typing allow him to avoid becoming dead weight as long as the team has proper support around it.
Hi! I usually dont post here/play OU that much, but i think i have enough experience with this particular Pokemon to make a solid post on it, if im wrong, bear with me.
I think Heracross deserves at least D rank on the list, while Heracross is often overlooked by many because of the multiple other Fighting-types in the tier such as Keldeo, and Terrakion, i think that it has enough of a niche to get a ranking on this list. For one thing, Heracross has one thing that no other Fighting-type in OU has: Moxie. Moxie makes Heracross a usable late game cleaner, as every free KO it gets just makes it harder to deal with, and most Pokemon wont be at full hp earlier on in the match, making it that much easier for Heracross to get that crucial first KO and secure a late game Close Combat/Megahorn sweep. Another thing that sets Heracross apart from the various Fighting-types available in OU is its access to Megahorn, which completely eliminates bulky Psychic-types such as Celebi, Lati@s, Slowbro, and Reuniclus as counters, as Megahorn will 2HKO them at worst. Heracross also has guts as its disposal, which while being generally inferior to moxie, makes Heracross quite good at absorbing Status for the rest of its team (fuck scald, for example). Sadly, i personally cant see Heracross going above C rank, while it does have a solid niche in Moxie/Guts and Megahorn, other Fighting types (especially Terrakion) still overshadow it to an extent, to make matters worse, Heracross is also cursed with a Mediocre base 85 Speed stat, limiting the amount of threats that heracross can revenge kill even with a Choice Scarf, and usually limiting it to simply cleaning up late game. Despite these admittedly significant flaws, i still think Heracross deserves a slot in either D or C rank on the list, feel free to agree/disagree :x.
Also, i second golurk
I think Heracross deserves at least D rank on the list, while Heracross is often overlooked by many because of the multiple other Fighting-types in the tier such as Keldeo, and Terrakion, i think that it has enough of a niche to get a ranking on this list. For one thing, Heracross has one thing that no other Fighting-type in OU has: Moxie. Moxie makes Heracross a usable late game cleaner, as every free KO it gets just makes it harder to deal with, and most Pokemon wont be at full hp earlier on in the match, making it that much easier for Heracross to get that crucial first KO and secure a late game Close Combat/Megahorn sweep. Another thing that sets Heracross apart from the various Fighting-types available in OU is its access to Megahorn, which completely eliminates bulky Psychic-types such as Celebi, Lati@s, Slowbro, and Reuniclus as counters, as Megahorn will 2HKO them at worst. Heracross also has guts as its disposal, which while being generally inferior to moxie, makes Heracross quite good at absorbing Status for the rest of its team (fuck scald, for example). Sadly, i personally cant see Heracross going above C rank, while it does have a solid niche in Moxie/Guts and Megahorn, other Fighting types (especially Terrakion) still overshadow it to an extent, to make matters worse, Heracross is also cursed with a Mediocre base 85 Speed stat, limiting the amount of threats that heracross can revenge kill even with a Choice Scarf, and usually limiting it to simply cleaning up late game. Despite these admittedly significant flaws, i still think Heracross deserves a slot in either D or C rank on the list, feel free to agree/disagree :x.
Also, i second golurk
Definitely D for Heracross.
Unfortunately even Scarfcross is getting outsped by nearly every other scarfer in the tier. IMO, what Heracross is really bringing to the table is being a scarfer with a very unique set of resistances, sporting resistances to Fighting, Ground, Bug, and Dark, along with no weakness to priority makes him more bulky than his stats would make him appear. However, as said, I just don't think his speed cuts it in OU to go any higher than D rank. While Salamence doesn't have as great a defensive typing as Heracross does, he pulls off a moxie scarf set much better than Heracross does imo, because the checks that Salamence needs to be removed to sweep are much easier to trap or lure out early, at least in my experience. Then you look at things like Keldeo and Heracross really isn't screaming for a team spot at that point either. Heracross is great, sure, but it's very difficult to justify using it over many of the other exceptional common scarfers in the tier. You don't see him much in actual play for a reason. ( | 76 | Heracross | 1.37437% | 15896 | 1.672% | 12251 | 1.599% | ). I think the last thing that holds heracross back in OU is that he really doesn't benefit or threaten any weather. He is a very weather neutral poke which doesn't lend himself well to the metagame. Even weatherless teams will look for some way to combat weather which heracross can't do exceptionally well.
Unfortunately even Scarfcross is getting outsped by nearly every other scarfer in the tier. IMO, what Heracross is really bringing to the table is being a scarfer with a very unique set of resistances, sporting resistances to Fighting, Ground, Bug, and Dark, along with no weakness to priority makes him more bulky than his stats would make him appear. However, as said, I just don't think his speed cuts it in OU to go any higher than D rank. While Salamence doesn't have as great a defensive typing as Heracross does, he pulls off a moxie scarf set much better than Heracross does imo, because the checks that Salamence needs to be removed to sweep are much easier to trap or lure out early, at least in my experience. Then you look at things like Keldeo and Heracross really isn't screaming for a team spot at that point either. Heracross is great, sure, but it's very difficult to justify using it over many of the other exceptional common scarfers in the tier. You don't see him much in actual play for a reason. ( | 76 | Heracross | 1.37437% | 15896 | 1.672% | 12251 | 1.599% | ). I think the last thing that holds heracross back in OU is that he really doesn't benefit or threaten any weather. He is a very weather neutral poke which doesn't lend himself well to the metagame. Even weatherless teams will look for some way to combat weather which heracross can't do exceptionally well.
I believe everyone already stated their reasoning. It has its perks but the fact that it should be in D-Rank doesnt mean it should be used over Scizor, it just implies there is a niche.
Comparing two types of formats and a pokemons ability in each format doesnt lead to anything. For example, Bisharp may not be listed in OU but its a C-Rank in ubers. Why? Different format, different mons.
Even comparing Kabutops and Bisharp is rather odd as they both have different perks. I use the Ranger to set-up on Latis, its a great counter to Landorus-Therian because of its ability Defiant, it stops the new overused Celebi, and Jellicent. If I were to compared it, Kabutops would get hurt pretty bad by most those pokemon. There is a reason why there is a D-rank, and until Bisharp has more potential unlocked in the OU it should deserve to be in D-Rank.
First off, before I get my proposal going, I second the Golurk, Bisharp, and Heracross proposals.
Now, as for my proposal, I'm going to nominate Moltres for D-Rank. Take word from the first line of its OU Overview: "Moltres was always a bad Pokemon to use in OU. Losing 50% of its health from Stealth Rock, having a mediocre 90 base Speed, being weak to Electric-, Rock-, and Water-type moves, and being outclassed by the Fire-types of OU were the main reasons that Moltres never saw any real use." This explains Moltres's very noticable flaws that prevent Moltres from being any higher than D-Rank. "However, Moltres got Hurricane in BW2, giving it a reason to be used in OU." This line, however, gives a head start as to why Moltres even has a niche. I've used Moltres before, and I'm gonna say that it's usable at what it does. It is tied with Tornadus-I for possessing the strongest Hurricane in the game, and its access to Fire Blast not only allows it to hit Bronzong, Jirachi, and Ferrothorn harder, but allows it to combat sun teams, especially with that typing. Thanks to this, Moltres hold a specific niche on rain as a weapon against sun and also to hurt some steels. Of course, those words I took from the analysis pretty much explain why Moltres is still rather mediocre, but its specific use on rain should justify it a ranking. Moltres for D-Rank!
Also, for fun, let's add Farfetch'd, Magikarp, and Unown to E-Rank since they have joke analyses.
Now, as for my proposal, I'm going to nominate Moltres for D-Rank. Take word from the first line of its OU Overview: "Moltres was always a bad Pokemon to use in OU. Losing 50% of its health from Stealth Rock, having a mediocre 90 base Speed, being weak to Electric-, Rock-, and Water-type moves, and being outclassed by the Fire-types of OU were the main reasons that Moltres never saw any real use." This explains Moltres's very noticable flaws that prevent Moltres from being any higher than D-Rank. "However, Moltres got Hurricane in BW2, giving it a reason to be used in OU." This line, however, gives a head start as to why Moltres even has a niche. I've used Moltres before, and I'm gonna say that it's usable at what it does. It is tied with Tornadus-I for possessing the strongest Hurricane in the game, and its access to Fire Blast not only allows it to hit Bronzong, Jirachi, and Ferrothorn harder, but allows it to combat sun teams, especially with that typing. Thanks to this, Moltres hold a specific niche on rain as a weapon against sun and also to hurt some steels. Of course, those words I took from the analysis pretty much explain why Moltres is still rather mediocre, but its specific use on rain should justify it a ranking. Moltres for D-Rank!
Also, for fun, let's add Farfetch'd, Magikarp, and Unown to E-Rank since they have joke analyses.
I think Gengar should be A rank because it is just so versitile.
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.
Gengar fits the bolded bit very well because most, if not all of his 4th gen sets can be used in 5th gen, plus you can use him as a lure. I think he should be A rank because anything with a relitivley strong (read : Not first turn timid shuckle rollout) physical attack can OHKO if he doesn't KO them first, particularly Scizor and Bullet Punch, which will always go first if Gengar doesn't use protect.
Gengar @ Normal Gem
46 Atk / 252 Spa / 210 Spd
Hasty / Naive (Use the one which lowers Def)
-Explosion
-Shadow Ball
-Focus Blast
-Hidden Power (Fire)
252 SpAtk Gengar Focus Blast vs 252 HP/4 SpDef Blissey: 28.29% - 33.33%
46 Atk Normal Gem Gengar Explosion vs 252 HP/252 Def Blissey (+Def) : 51.12% - 60.22%
Worst case scenario Blissey will live with about 16% of its hp left and that is only with no hazards AND min damage roll for both moves, you lure in Blissey, hit it with focus blast on the switch and go boom, with latios's life orb timid surf in the sun able to take blissey out if you have stealth rocks up because she will only have about 3% left and surf does at least 6%.
He can also be an effective trickscarf pokemon with this set, though it is for ubers.
Gengar @ Choice Scarf
4 Hp / 252 Spa / 252 Spd
Modest
-Trick
-Shadow Ball
-Focus Blast
-Destiny Bond
You can come into Blissey, using genesect to make it use flamethrower, which will
3HKO you, meaning you can trick and still outspeed for the destiny bond thanks to Blissy's pathetic speed.
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.
Gengar fits the bolded bit very well because most, if not all of his 4th gen sets can be used in 5th gen, plus you can use him as a lure. I think he should be A rank because anything with a relitivley strong (read : Not first turn timid shuckle rollout) physical attack can OHKO if he doesn't KO them first, particularly Scizor and Bullet Punch, which will always go first if Gengar doesn't use protect.
Gengar @ Normal Gem
46 Atk / 252 Spa / 210 Spd
Hasty / Naive (Use the one which lowers Def)
-Explosion
-Shadow Ball
-Focus Blast
-Hidden Power (Fire)
252 SpAtk Gengar Focus Blast vs 252 HP/4 SpDef Blissey: 28.29% - 33.33%
46 Atk Normal Gem Gengar Explosion vs 252 HP/252 Def Blissey (+Def) : 51.12% - 60.22%
Worst case scenario Blissey will live with about 16% of its hp left and that is only with no hazards AND min damage roll for both moves, you lure in Blissey, hit it with focus blast on the switch and go boom, with latios's life orb timid surf in the sun able to take blissey out if you have stealth rocks up because she will only have about 3% left and surf does at least 6%.
He can also be an effective trickscarf pokemon with this set, though it is for ubers.
Gengar @ Choice Scarf
4 Hp / 252 Spa / 252 Spd
Modest
-Trick
-Shadow Ball
-Focus Blast
-Destiny Bond
You can come into Blissey, using genesect to make it use flamethrower, which will
3HKO you, meaning you can trick and still outspeed for the destiny bond thanks to Blissy's pathetic speed.
Wait...
Do you want Gengar in A-Rank or S-Rank? You say A-Rank, but you used the description for S-Rank...
Do you want Gengar in A-Rank or S-Rank? You say A-Rank, but you used the description for S-Rank...
A rank, he has flaws that stop him from being S rank.
Gengar is not that great in this metagame. B-Rank fits it fine, as it has a viable niche as the only viable spinblocker for Hyper Offense. However, the sets you posted aren't good at all. I dont even understand the first set. You tailormade a Gengar set to sacrifice itself to weaken Blissey, another pokemon that's not that great in this metagame. Secondly, the scenario you listed is not the worst case scenario. Focus Blast can miss, and Blissey can just use Softboiled on the turn that you explode, leaving the Blissey anywhere from 60% to full health and a wasted teamslot on your part. We should not waste a team slot on a pokemon for a way to beat bad players using Flamethrower Blissey (not saying the set is bad, though its not good). Your scenario in the second set wouldnt even happen. If Flamethrower 3HKO's, you would switch in and tank a Flamethrower, then use Destiny Bond as you survived another Flamethrower. You would then be locked into Destiny Bond, and if the Blissey player was at all competent, they would switch out. Also, remove your mention of Genesect in the second set, as it has been banned for a few months. Gengar should not be A-Rank. It does have a specific niche, but its not even that great at that niche, and the sets you listed are not what Gengar should be doing. Sub Disable, SubSplit, and a Scarf set with actual coverage all are much better in the current metagame
Blissey might try to t-wave you, plus it can be effective other than that
Ok, on that note...
I will say that Gengar is an annoying threat and can be very dangerous. However, I wouldn't necessarily say that he's versatile. You always know that it's going to be running something along the lines of Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, and two filler moves. Compared to some other pokemon, it's fairly predictable.
The sets you're posting aren't really helping it's case at all. The Explosion set I don't think is really viable. It seems the point of it is to kill off Blissey, yet you have to FIRST hit it with Focus Blast, and THEN kill yourself, and even then it's not guaranteed to work. If Blissey decides to recover or Thunder Wave you in the middle of this, you're whole strategy is ruined. Also, Gengar has pretty bad Atk, meaning Explosion is really not going to be hurting a whole lot. Also, in order to give Gengar a small atk boost, you're sacrificing Speed and Defense, the former you need to speed tie with Lati@s, and the latter you're really just making it all the more easy to pick off with priority. I have a hard time justifying the use of the set.
The Choice Scarf set is a bit better. That has some viable uses, so I won't go off about it.
Anyway, I could see Gengar being A-Rank, but he has some pretty crippling flaws that I think makes him somewhat more B-Rank.
I will say that Gengar is an annoying threat and can be very dangerous. However, I wouldn't necessarily say that he's versatile. You always know that it's going to be running something along the lines of Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, and two filler moves. Compared to some other pokemon, it's fairly predictable.
The sets you're posting aren't really helping it's case at all. The Explosion set I don't think is really viable. It seems the point of it is to kill off Blissey, yet you have to FIRST hit it with Focus Blast, and THEN kill yourself, and even then it's not guaranteed to work. If Blissey decides to recover or Thunder Wave you in the middle of this, you're whole strategy is ruined. Also, Gengar has pretty bad Atk, meaning Explosion is really not going to be hurting a whole lot. Also, in order to give Gengar a small atk boost, you're sacrificing Speed and Defense, the former you need to speed tie with Lati@s, and the latter you're really just making it all the more easy to pick off with priority. I have a hard time justifying the use of the set.
The Choice Scarf set is a bit better. That has some viable uses, so I won't go off about it.
Anyway, I could see Gengar being A-Rank, but he has some pretty crippling flaws that I think makes him somewhat more B-Rank.
Explosion isnt the move it used to be, and even with Normal Gem, I dont think an unboosted Explosion off of a minimally invested Base 65 Attack is going to be accomplishing much other than maybe giving you some momentum on a predicted switch or something. It will never OHKO anything other than incredibly frail offensive pokemon like Infernape (Not guaranteed without hazards) and Mienshao. Also, your EV spread is inefficient. Your Attack EV's dont add up to an even amount, so either up those to 48 or lower them to any multiple of 4 you want. I would also recommend you run max speed, as your current spread gets outsped by Base 108s. Besides, exploding with Gengar would waste its spinblocking and general annoying potential. However, I will agree with you in that Destiny Bond on Gengar is pretty good in this meta, just not on a Choice Scarf set. You can run it on a variety of sets, like with Substitute and your standard two attacks. However, none of this pushes Gengar close to A-Rank, as its still incredibly frail, relies on a weak STAB and an inaccurate neutral coverage move, and ends up dying earlier than you would like in a lot of matches.
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