I think I would.
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Tier Shift Metagame (THIS IS BW)
- Thread starter PureQuestion
- Start date
- Status
EV
Banned deucer.
I really like this concept. I went to the mod on PS to take a look but wasn't sure how/when the stats are increased since the team builder looked like it showed the same values.
But firstly, a question. Since tier shifts are inevitable, when they happen, will the appropriate +5, +10, +15 boosts change as well or is this meta static as of your post?
I'm going to guess it's the former since you wrote this about Tornadus:
"I'm not sure he'll be staying UU, with the ban of the Therian forme, but for the moment, base 130 special attack hurricane off 116 base speed sure sounds pretty nice."
So to me that reads like the boosts increase or decrease as Pokemon enter and exit the respective tiers. I'm assuming if Tornadus returns to OU, it will lose its +5 boosts, is that correct?
Secondly, would someone be willing to compile a reference on this thread or via a link with the new base stats for each tier below OU? Is there an easy way to accomplish this? It would be handy for team building and offer a quick visual offering for anyone interested in the tier looking for a compendium.
Lastly, some analysis. As a lover of bulk, I believe stall got a huge boon from this idea. While +15 to certain NU threats like Pikachu, Clamperl, Exeggutor, Rampardos, etc are scary, as someone already mentioned the increase to bulk is magnified by the boost to HP and Defense/Special Defense and further bloated by the near-broken item Eviolite.
Take for instance the fairly durable Piloswine. With an Eviolite it's already a sturdy check for many physical attackers. But factor in its new stats at 115/115/95/75/75/65 and it becomes frightening. With an Impish 252/252/4 defensive spread it reaches 434/475/280. Its lack of recovery lets it down, but it's just one example of the real potential behind massive bulk produced in this meta. See also Misdreavus (75/75/75/100/100/100), Roselia (65/75/60/115/95/80), Tangela (80/70/130/115/55/75) for more NU NFEs.
Even Regigigas, who is crippled by Slow Start and not an optimal abuser of its new 175 base Attack stat, has defenses of 125/125/125, bulkier than Arceus.
What about our Pranksters, most of whom are banished to the depths of NU? Murkrow, Illumise, Volbeat, and Liepard might see some more usage now with +15. Whimsicott will get +10. And Sableye and Tornadus get +5.
Niche Pokemon like Dry Skin Parasect will really shine now, too. Its unique typing and ability with 75/110/95/75/95/45 stats means it can contend on Rain teams as a Psychic spook and check to the frail attackers Alakazam and Gardevoir, and even take on Exeggutor outside of Sun.
See also Eelektross (100/130/95/120/95/65), Ferroseed (54/60/101/34/96/20), Poliwrath (100/95/105/80/100/80), Qwilfish (75/105/85/65/65/95), and Spiritomb (60/102/118/102/118/45) who have unique places as checks in their respective tiers.
And some of you have already mentioned Shedinja, who gets base 16 HP now. While it doesn't seem like much, Shedinja no longer instantly dies to entry hazards and residual damage and can carry Leftovers to nullify Sand and Hail damage. It can actually function as a cold check to a lot of attackers that don't carry Fire, Rock, Flying, Ghost, or Dark. As such, Clamperl and Pikachu cannot touch it without the appropriate Hidden Power, which they'd rather save for Grass and Electric (Clamperl) or Ice (Pikachu).
And besides the Eviolite abusers and niche-mons, the already behemoths of bulk are still as viable as ever.
130/80/130/85/140/95
85/80/155/80/155/55
45/75/135/65/135/30 + Eviolite
85/95/210/65/75/40
85/85/140/85/140/105
105/80/120/95/120/90
63/55/150/100/110/30
165/115/70/70/115/35
100/70/115/65/135/70
But one place I really think the vast potential for stall awaits is on Sand teams. People have already mentioned the monstrous wall Regirock will become with 95/115/215/65/115/65 and Sand support. Shuckle also becomes a daunting wall with 35/245/245 HP/Defense/Special Defense. Other Rock-type Sand abusers to look out for that abuse the 50% boost to Special Defense include:
Spin and Rock support with a frightening 140 Attack and 90/115/95 defenses
Solid Rock with 89/148/98 defenses and Shell Smash
101/112/122 defenses, instant recovery, and Storm Drain to absorb Water
&
75/155/65 + Eviolite and 80/190/70 with Rock Head Head Smash off 105 and 120 Attack respectively
115/130/55 defenses and Eviolite and 140 Attack
90/75/85 with 140 Speed and 115 Attack plus Pressure and Roost
150 Attack, 122 Special Attack, 120 Speed
70/115/80 Rapid Spin and Rock support and 125 Attack
80/135/80 Spikes and Rock support and 125 Special Attack
75/160/165 defenses and 90 Special Attack with Magnet Pull
180 Attack, 112 HP and decent defenses under Sand
Non-Rock-types that get boosts worth noting include Stoutland and Sandslash with Sand Rush.
While there are some new offensive threats that must surely be addressed in this thread, I believe a creative use of Pokemon with newfound bulk, niche typing and abilities, and those that already had big bulk but saw it reach jaw-dropping levels can temper the onslaught.
Yes we have huge Chlorophyll threats like Exeggutor, Sawsbuck, Victreebel, Shiftry, hell even Vileplume, but they can be mediated with fatty Sap Sippers like Miltank or Bouffalant, Cloud Nine Lickilicky, and Fire-types like Entei, Heatran, and Moltres.
Huge and Pure Power threats like Azumarill and Medicham or mons with unique items like Pikachu, Clamperl, and Marowak are more scary than ever but their regular foes like Suicune, Spiritomb, Ferroseed, and others can stop them. Shedinja only fear's Marowak's Fire Punch or Stone Edge but otherwise walls the rest.
Mold Breaker Sawk looks imposing with 100 Speed and 140 Attack; Gurdurr boasts 100 HP, 120 Attack, and 100 Defense backed by Eviolite; and Speed Boost Combusken has dual base 100 attacking stats, but they will fail to muscle past Dusclops, Cresselia, or Uxie any day of the week.
And the Sheer Forcers got even scarier! Nidoqueen, Nidoking, and Darmanitan to name a few will haunt the meta for certain. But they too are stopped cold by our defensive behemoths I have already mentioned.
I hope my little analyses weren't too rambly. I guess let me know what you think.
But firstly, a question. Since tier shifts are inevitable, when they happen, will the appropriate +5, +10, +15 boosts change as well or is this meta static as of your post?
I'm going to guess it's the former since you wrote this about Tornadus:
"I'm not sure he'll be staying UU, with the ban of the Therian forme, but for the moment, base 130 special attack hurricane off 116 base speed sure sounds pretty nice."
So to me that reads like the boosts increase or decrease as Pokemon enter and exit the respective tiers. I'm assuming if Tornadus returns to OU, it will lose its +5 boosts, is that correct?
-
Secondly, would someone be willing to compile a reference on this thread or via a link with the new base stats for each tier below OU? Is there an easy way to accomplish this? It would be handy for team building and offer a quick visual offering for anyone interested in the tier looking for a compendium.
-
Lastly, some analysis. As a lover of bulk, I believe stall got a huge boon from this idea. While +15 to certain NU threats like Pikachu, Clamperl, Exeggutor, Rampardos, etc are scary, as someone already mentioned the increase to bulk is magnified by the boost to HP and Defense/Special Defense and further bloated by the near-broken item Eviolite.
Take for instance the fairly durable Piloswine. With an Eviolite it's already a sturdy check for many physical attackers. But factor in its new stats at 115/115/95/75/75/65 and it becomes frightening. With an Impish 252/252/4 defensive spread it reaches 434/475/280. Its lack of recovery lets it down, but it's just one example of the real potential behind massive bulk produced in this meta. See also Misdreavus (75/75/75/100/100/100), Roselia (65/75/60/115/95/80), Tangela (80/70/130/115/55/75) for more NU NFEs.
Even Regigigas, who is crippled by Slow Start and not an optimal abuser of its new 175 base Attack stat, has defenses of 125/125/125, bulkier than Arceus.
What about our Pranksters, most of whom are banished to the depths of NU? Murkrow, Illumise, Volbeat, and Liepard might see some more usage now with +15. Whimsicott will get +10. And Sableye and Tornadus get +5.
Niche Pokemon like Dry Skin Parasect will really shine now, too. Its unique typing and ability with 75/110/95/75/95/45 stats means it can contend on Rain teams as a Psychic spook and check to the frail attackers Alakazam and Gardevoir, and even take on Exeggutor outside of Sun.
See also Eelektross (100/130/95/120/95/65), Ferroseed (54/60/101/34/96/20), Poliwrath (100/95/105/80/100/80), Qwilfish (75/105/85/65/65/95), and Spiritomb (60/102/118/102/118/45) who have unique places as checks in their respective tiers.
And some of you have already mentioned Shedinja, who gets base 16 HP now. While it doesn't seem like much, Shedinja no longer instantly dies to entry hazards and residual damage and can carry Leftovers to nullify Sand and Hail damage. It can actually function as a cold check to a lot of attackers that don't carry Fire, Rock, Flying, Ghost, or Dark. As such, Clamperl and Pikachu cannot touch it without the appropriate Hidden Power, which they'd rather save for Grass and Electric (Clamperl) or Ice (Pikachu).
And besides the Eviolite abusers and niche-mons, the already behemoths of bulk are still as viable as ever.
But one place I really think the vast potential for stall awaits is on Sand teams. People have already mentioned the monstrous wall Regirock will become with 95/115/215/65/115/65 and Sand support. Shuckle also becomes a daunting wall with 35/245/245 HP/Defense/Special Defense. Other Rock-type Sand abusers to look out for that abuse the 50% boost to Special Defense include:
Non-Rock-types that get boosts worth noting include Stoutland and Sandslash with Sand Rush.
-
While there are some new offensive threats that must surely be addressed in this thread, I believe a creative use of Pokemon with newfound bulk, niche typing and abilities, and those that already had big bulk but saw it reach jaw-dropping levels can temper the onslaught.
Yes we have huge Chlorophyll threats like Exeggutor, Sawsbuck, Victreebel, Shiftry, hell even Vileplume, but they can be mediated with fatty Sap Sippers like Miltank or Bouffalant, Cloud Nine Lickilicky, and Fire-types like Entei, Heatran, and Moltres.
Huge and Pure Power threats like Azumarill and Medicham or mons with unique items like Pikachu, Clamperl, and Marowak are more scary than ever but their regular foes like Suicune, Spiritomb, Ferroseed, and others can stop them. Shedinja only fear's Marowak's Fire Punch or Stone Edge but otherwise walls the rest.
Mold Breaker Sawk looks imposing with 100 Speed and 140 Attack; Gurdurr boasts 100 HP, 120 Attack, and 100 Defense backed by Eviolite; and Speed Boost Combusken has dual base 100 attacking stats, but they will fail to muscle past Dusclops, Cresselia, or Uxie any day of the week.
And the Sheer Forcers got even scarier! Nidoqueen, Nidoking, and Darmanitan to name a few will haunt the meta for certain. But they too are stopped cold by our defensive behemoths I have already mentioned.
-
I hope my little analyses weren't too rambly. I guess let me know what you think.
The stats are only applied in battle; they have no effect on the team builder.
Cresselia is +10 all.
So far, tier shift has been going well, and there's one major threat that's gone overlooked in this thread:
Swellow
Sporting a now passable 100 base attack and a completely absurd base 140 speed, Swellow is remarkably devastating with its infamous Guts boosted STAB facade, sporting high enough speed to go Adamant and still outrun everything, making up for its slightly lackluster attack. Swellow is an incredibly devastating physical attacker.
I think it's a really cool example of a way the metagame has succeeded. An NU pokemon has become just... very frightening.
Cresselia is +10 all.
So far, tier shift has been going well, and there's one major threat that's gone overlooked in this thread:
Swellow
Sporting a now passable 100 base attack and a completely absurd base 140 speed, Swellow is remarkably devastating with its infamous Guts boosted STAB facade, sporting high enough speed to go Adamant and still outrun everything, making up for its slightly lackluster attack. Swellow is an incredibly devastating physical attacker.
I think it's a really cool example of a way the metagame has succeeded. An NU pokemon has become just... very frightening.
This wouldn't work too well without something being broken, some pokemon are in the low tiers just because they are outclassed by something, not that they are actually weak as an individual. Off the top of my head there's Exeggutor in the sun, 110/110/100/140/80/70.. that is just plain Uber material.
I would definitely play in a tournament. Sand and Sun get great boosts, surprised no ones mentioned Hail. Rotom-F is a monster with base 101 Speed and 120 Sp Atk and that great STAB combo. Kyurem joins to base 100 Speed tier group, with boosted Sp Atk and even better bulk. Rain is the only weather without much of an improvement. More thoughts and stuff later.
Slaking would be intresting to see, would have some massive attack, still the stupid Truant of course. And what about the allready powerfull fighting beasts of UU? Or Gligar and the likes of that?
Honestly I don't think many Pokemon will come out of UU. The flat boosts, while simple and the draw of the metagame (which I find interesting), doesn't boost equally. +5 in each stat, while an ok boost, isn't really game changing. The Pokemon are a little better, but not really significantly stronger. While BST isn't everything, UU Pokemon only gets a 30 point boost, which is nothing compared to the 60 and 90 point boosts of RU and NU. I mean, Raikou gets a nice Speed and Sp Atk boost, but is a 115/115 Sp Atk/Speed really much less attractive than a 120/120, especially when you have Pokemon like the recently mentioned Swellow running around with 100/140 (Guts boosted) Attack/Speed? The sheer power of the Pokemon from the lower tiers, mostly weather abusers with more (Sp) Attack and more Speed, in general Pokemon with doubled stats, or defensive Pokemon with greatly increased defenses are going to be the ones that receive a huge boost from this metagame.
A lot of UU pokemon really benefit from a jump in speed tier; Tornadus shoots up past the base 115s, for example, which is huge. Azumarill enjoys its attack boost, which is doubled by Huge Power, and a few other pokemon really enjoy speed boosts along with the marginal offense boosts.
Specs/Scarf Glaceon... 145 sAtt and 80 base speed
Blizzard of doom.
80/75/125/145/110/80
Ridiculous stats.
Pure, I haven't seen Swellow, but I have seen CB Aerodactyl in sand.. So fast, so strong, so bulky.
One of the most threatening sweepers I have used and seen used is Crawdaunt!! This guy is 73/130/95/100/65/65, but the main thing is that he gets Dragon Dance and 2x STAB not 1.5x. With enough speed to outpace base 120s at +1 Jolly and enough power to OHKO so many things even outside of rain(with that awesome STAB combo), it will sweep.
Also, I would participate in a tournament.
Tournament. We need one. Please PureQuestion.
I'm not saying nothing will, but just that many won't. Pokemon in a sensitive Speed tier or with doubled stats like Azumaril will certainly get a bump, but where as NU and RU look like unstoppable tanks and offensive weather Pokemon, UU Pokemon will only be slightly better. I mean again, Raikou and Zapdos, monsters of UU, face competition from Galvantula who sports a Speed tier just a few under Raikou, a Sp Atk stat not much lower when you factor in the Thunder boost, a great secondary STAB and better movepool. If you want Electric nukes, Pikachu is stronger. Torndaus I looks like a success with better Speed and the banishment of Torny-T (that Hurricane looks painful), but I mean I don't see the majority of UU Pokemon becoming huge threats. Still, there could be hidden gems. I think the most likely UU Pokemon (after all this is only theory) to rise will be Fighting-types and Stallbreakers. The majority of Fighting-types are in OU and UU, so UU's will be the only ones with boosts. With all these bulky Pokemon, UU's great stallbreakers such as Crobat, Sableye, Togekiss, and Mew, could all see use, even without huge stat changes. In OU, I think Steel-types will see some serious usage. After all, many of these Pokemon fall because they can't break prevalent Steel-types. Heatran gets props for shutting down a large number of newly strengthen Normal-types, Hail Pokemon, and even Sun Pokemon. Opting for HP Ground opens Chlorophyll sweepers up to be walled by Ferrothorn, which also walls a lot of new things. It'll be interesting to see what stays and what goes. I've been rambling a ton, I promise I'll have some more coherent and planed posts when I have time to organize some serious theorymoning.
I'm not actually sure, but I mean, Shedinja doesn't actually have the bulk to take any hits - especially, you know, super effective hits, the only ones it can take - so I'm not sure why you'd want to? The residual damage survival is huge but I'm not sure what you'd gain from more HP.
Ace Emerald, Victini really appreciates the +5, getting even faster and hitting even harder with V-Create.
Don't get me wrong, everything gets better, but I don't think the +5s help Victini out that much. 105 vs 100 is a mere 3.3% boost, not really that significant. The Speed boost is nice, but this tier looks to have some really inflated Speed tiers, I don't know what it outspeeds that's significant. Victini might get more usage, but I'd chalk that up to it performing well in the meta, and I'd say it'd do nearly as well with its 100 stats.
You know... I didn't even realize the effect of stat increases being linear until I started playing Tier Boost.
The high BST mons like Slaking got a very low % increase to their stats compared to things like Butterfree with a low BST.
But anyway.. Victini's upgrade takes a 96% hit to a OHKO. Considering everything else got bulkier, I don't think you can consider that a significant improvement. I agree with Ace.
Isn't 105 vs 100, you know, a 5% boost?
No, base stats don't transfer directly to stats. A 252 ev'd 31 iv'd base 100 has a stat of 299, while the same for 105 has a stat of 309. Divide 309 by 299, you get 1.033... which basically means that going from a stat of 299 to 309 is about a 3.3% boost.
Oh you mean to the final stats yeah. Technically it depends on investment, then. Either way, it's +10 to all its final stats.
EV
Banned deucer.
Speaking of Swellow, what about the other Guts-like NU threat Zangoose?So far, tier shift has been going well, and there's one major threat that's gone overlooked in this thread:
Swellow
Sporting a now passable 100 base attack and a completely absurd base 140 speed, Swellow is remarkably devastating with its infamous Guts boosted STAB facade, sporting high enough speed to go Adamant and still outrun everything, making up for its slightly lackluster attack. Swellow is an incredibly devastating physical attacker.
I think it's a really cool example of a way the metagame has succeeded. An NU pokemon has become just... very frightening.
88/130/75/75/75/105 Immunity / Toxic Boost
It isn't nearly as fast, but hits waaaay harder and can break through Rock-, Steel-, and Rock/Steel-types with Close Combat. Plus it has STAB Facade, Quick Attack, and coverage with Night Slash and the elemental punches. And it can learn Swords Dance...
And there is...
80/145/75/110/125/80 Flash Fire / Guts
Sun-boosted and Guts-boosted STAB Flame Charge. Plus it walls special Chlorophyll sweepers not carrying HP Ground and is immune to Exeggutor's and Victreebel's Sleep Powder.
95/135/94/110/94/85 Rivalry / Intimidate / Guts
105/145/90/90/90/70 Guts / Quick Feet / Unnerve
Swords Dance Guts-boosted Facade wrecks sh*t. Plus like Zangoose it gets Close Combat for Rock and Steel. Or it can run Quick Feet and still ruin with Facade.
135/115/100/45/100/60 Guts / Inner Focus / Mold Breaker
Look at this fat daddy! Rest, Sleep Talk, Circle Throw, Bulk Up or something crazy. Ugh.
Unfortunately Flareon is still bad because his problem was always a terrible movepool above all else.
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