Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Halcyon.]

Honestly, I would rather use Hitmontop as a spinner on my team than Donphan. Donphan just always underperforms whenever I use him. Obviously it could juts be me, but I would rather go with a Pokémon with the ability to Rapid Spin on anything than something with low speed and a weakness to Water, Grass, and Ice. It really seems to me that Hitmontop should at least be in whatever tier Donphan is in.

 

[PK Gaming]

I've added Snorlax & Porygon 2 to C-tier

About Hitmontop: It seems like a D-tier Pokemon to me. What it's real niche in OU and why should you use it?

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Hitmontop has a use with intimidate and foresight for a gaurunteed spin. It's probably the third best rapid spinner in ou, above Donphan as a spinner but below forretress. It can be used as a bulky offensive spinner on sun teams with far better coverage than donphan's earthquake.

Also, nobody had anything to say about crobat? I made post post about it showcasing its fast taunt and full breloom/fighting-type stop. It might be outclassed in some of its roles, but it has a unique style and is t least deserving of a spot.

 

[malomyotismon]

I've added Snorlax & Porygon 2 toC-tier

About Hitmontop: It seems like a D-tier Pokemon to me. What it's real niche in OU and why should you use it?

I must agree with others here, he is a better spinner than Donphan and thanks to good typing which helps him threaten namely tyranitar and intimidate makes him pretty bulky + 110 special defence, puts him as being bulkier than rotom and Donphan over all making spinning easy against gengar and jellicent, which Donphan can't do. Unlike forty starmie he has forsight, for guaranteed hit with rapid spin and he isn't offensively useless to the team like fortress either, with solid stab in fighting. Tbh rocks and spikes is the only reason not to use him over fortress and Donphan. His place is mainly in sun teams, where he is the best rappid spinner avalible as starmie is another bait for tyranitar, fortress looses offensive momentum and Donphan is unable to reliably lift rocks.

Definately not a D tier mon he is not weak enough nor is he horribly outclassed and he certainly dose the same niche as Donphan better, I would even say b, but not having rocks really hurts at times.

Sorry bit rushed on iPhone

 

[Sork]

I would like to advocate moving Arcanine up to C-Tier.

Now, you're probably wondering why on earth would you use Arcanine over Darmanitan? Well, the main reasons for that is because of it's decent special defensive set that with morning sun in the sun and in conjunction with intimidate, can really put an opponent in a tough pickle. Also, an offensive advantage that Arcanine has over Darmanitan is the use of Wild Charge. With Wild charge, Arcanine is able to do some good damage to any bulky water that wants to come into it. Arcanine can actually ohko one of the biggest threats to rain, which is in the form of politoed, with just SR up (however, a choice band or electric gem is required in order to guarantee the KO, Life Orb has a 62.5% chance to OHKO after rocks) This is something that Darmanitan cannot do. Arcanine also has a superior fighting type option in the form of Close Combat, as well as one of the fastest and hard hitting priority moves in the game, in the form of extremespeed. However, because of Arcanine's base 95 Speed, he does require some support from his teammates if he is to be an asset, and that's why he fits in C-tier, which is classified by: "Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks."

All in all, Arcanine is very underrated in my opinion, and with the right team support, he can definitely put holes in the enemy team.

 

[Magcargo]

I would like to advocate moving Arcanine up to C-Tier.

Now, you're probably wondering why on earth would you use Arcanine over Darmanitan? Well, the main reasons for that is because of it's decent special defensive set that with morning sun in the sun and in conjunction with intimidate, can really put an opponent in a tough pickle. Also, an offensive advantage that Arcanine has over Darmanitan is the use of Wild Charge. With Wild charge, Arcanine is able to do some good damage to any bulky water that wants to come into it. Arcanine can actually ohko one of the biggest threats to rain, which is in the form of politoed, with just SR up (however, a choice band or electric gem is required in order to guarantee the KO, Life Orb has a 62.5% chance to OHKO after rocks) This is something that Darmanitan cannot do. Arcanine also has a superior fighting type option in the form of Close Combat, as well as one of the fastest and hard hitting priority moves in the game, in the form of extremespeed. However, because of Arcanine's base 95 Speed, he does require some support from his teammates if he is to be an asset, and that's why he fits in C-tier, which is classified by: "Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks."

All in all, Arcanine is very underrated in my opinion, and with the right team support, he can definitely put holes in the enemy team.

Arcanine is actually a potent defensive threat as well. Most defensive sun teams use arcanine as a wall to take care of some troublesome pokemon. Maybe C-Rank, but I'm leaning towards D_rank.
Also I agree with moving conkeldurr and heracross to B-rank.
Since deoxys-d has been banned, take it off the list.

 

[G-Von]

I would like to advocate moving Arcanine up to C-Tier.

Now, you're probably wondering why on earth would you use Arcanine over Darmanitan? Well, the main reasons for that is because of it's decent special defensive set that with morning sun in the sun and in conjunction with intimidate, can really put an opponent in a tough pickle. Also, an offensive advantage that Arcanine has over Darmanitan is the use of Wild Charge. With Wild charge, Arcanine is able to do some good damage to any bulky water that wants to come into it. Arcanine can actually ohko one of the biggest threats to rain, which is in the form of politoed, with just SR up (however, a choice band or electric gem is required in order to guarantee the KO, Life Orb has a 62.5% chance to OHKO after rocks) This is something that Darmanitan cannot do. Arcanine also has a superior fighting type option in the form of Close Combat, as well as one of the fastest and hard hitting priority moves in the game, in the form of extremespeed. However, because of Arcanine's base 95 Speed, he does require some support from his teammates if he is to be an asset, and that's why he fits in C-tier, which is classified by: "Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks."

All in all, Arcanine is very underrated in my opinion, and with the right team support, he can definitely put holes in the enemy team.

This is going to sound horrible but I do have some reasoning for it: I don't always use Arcanine, but when I do, it's Choice Banded with Outrage/FB/CC/E-Speed aaaaaaaand it works wonders. Outrage is there to say fuck you dragons while Flare Blitz is there for STAB and hits the steel types for big damage not named Heatran. Of course we have Close Combat for that though! So that's perfect coverage with room for a filler move. Wild Charge vs E-Speed: I feel like its a no-brainer for ExtremeSpeed but I suppose that just depends on the other 5 members of your team. I support the idea of it moving up to C-rank.

 

[Magcargo]

Since Deoxys-D got banned, I'm nominating accelgor and scolipede for C-Rank. These two pokemon are pretty good leads and although they aren't very bulky and don't have deoxys-D's amazing movepool, they have way more offensive presence. While 90 attack and 100 special attack aren't anything to brag about, powerful moves like megahorn and focus blast can really put a dent on stuff like latios and tyranitar. They also have pretty good speed (scolipede outspeeds base 110s while accelgor outspeeds base 130s). Accelgor can even beat starmie with bug buzz if it is an offensive variant. These two may have a shot at becoming the new premier spikers of ou.

 

[False Sense]

This is really just a nitpick, but we should probably get Deoxys-D off the list.

 

[malomyotismon]

This is really just a nitpick, but we should probably get Deoxys-D off the list.

Give pk a chance to post lol

 

[Trinitrotoluene]

Agreeing with Magcargo 2 that Scolipede should be C-tier. I've had rather pleasant experiences with it before Deo-D was banned, and with Deo-D banned, it should be much better. It's faster than Espeon, the faster of the two Bouncers, and its STAB Megahorn hits both Espeon and Xatu hard (super-effectively in the former's case). Heck, Scolipede can run Quick Feet over Swarm to turn Xatu's Thunder Wave into a Speed boost, allowing it to lay Spikes down much more quickly and turn it into a liability.

Also, I too think that Garchomp should also be moved up to S-tier. Garchomp boasts very few weaknesses, great bulk (108 / 95 / 90, as noted by Tabuu), as well as absolutely devastating STAB moves in the form of Outrage and Earthquake. It can run several sets, ranging from the dreadfully powerful Choice Band and Swords Dance sets to the more utilitarian Choice Scarf set to those sets that lay SR, all equally effective at what they do. Garchomp's odd speed tier ends up working out for it, and an even scarier proposition is that it can work with like-minded sweepers such as Terrakion to form a devastating one-two punch that many teams simply cannot stomach without dedicated physical walls. Yea, that vulnerability to Ice Shard is bad, but hey, that's what keeps Mamoswine and Weavile in business. Teammates can easily curb that weakness anyways, and Terrakion, despite being a solid S-tier Pokemon, is weak to Bullet Punch, Mach Punch, and Aqua Jet. There's hope yet for Garchomp to rise to S-tier.

 

[False Sense]

I'm going to have to say that I disagree with Garchomp going to S-Rank. I've used Garchomp in the past, and frankly, Garchomp is just a bit lacking, I think. True, it has fantastic stats all across the board, with great attack, solid bulk, and good speed. The problem I have with Garchomp is that it's just... bland, in a way. It's almost perfectly balanced, which is something of a problem in this Dragon infested metagame. A good portion of the sets Garchomp can run are done better by other dragons. Choice Band? Haxorus and Kyurem-B have more attack, letting them leave much more of a dent, which is the whole purpose of a Choice Band set. Choice Scarf? Lati@s is faster and has Trick to cripple things with, and Salamence has that amazing Moxie to get an easy sweep. Swords Dance? Thats something I'll have to hand to Garchomp, since not a lot of Dragons actually get that, but it misses out on Dragon Dance and the speed boost it grants, making it easy to revenge kill. It's ability to lay Stealth Rock is certainly unique for a dragon, but I don't think that that really pushes him up to S-Rank.

Overall, I just feel that Garchomp is a jack of all trades, but a master of none. Most of what it can do can be done better by other dragons, making it somewhat outclassed to a degree. What it's good for is being a very balanced dragon; if you don't need the specialization that the other dragons provide, Garchomp is a good choice. However, I just don't think that something like that is really worthy of S-Rank.

 

[Strategywin]

Staraptor to C. People don't know it exists or something. CB reckless BB, CC, Double-Edge, and quick attack does work. It can-
OHKO politoed, scizor, ferrothorn, thundurus-t, tornadus-t, garchomp with some hazards, etc. It is powerful and should SURELY be higher than frail pedo, sandslash and snorlax.

Also name one check to kyurem-b, then will keep it in A.

 

[Magcargo]

I'm going to have to say that I disagree with Garchomp going to S-Rank. I've used Garchomp in the past, and frankly, Garchomp is just a bit lacking, I think. True, it has fantastic stats all across the board, with great attack, solid bulk, and good speed. The problem I have with Garchomp is that it's just... bland, in a way. It's almost perfectly balanced, which is something of a problem in this Dragon infested metagame. A good portion of the sets Garchomp can run are done better by other dragons. Choice Band? Haxorus and Kyurem-B have more attack, letting them leave much more of a dent, which is the whole purpose of a Choice Band set. Choice Scarf? Lati@s is faster and has Trick to cripple things with, and Salamence has that amazing Moxie to get an easy sweep. Swords Dance? Thats something I'll have to hand to Garchomp, since not a lot of Dragons actually get that, but it misses out on Dragon Dance and the speed boost it grants, making it easy to revenge kill. It's ability to lay Stealth Rock is certainly unique for a dragon, but I don't think that that really pushes him up to S-Rank.

Overall, I just feel that Garchomp is a jack of all trades, but a master of none. Most of what it can do can be done better by other dragons, making it somewhat outclassed to a degree. What it's good for is being a very balanced dragon; if you don't need the specialization that the other dragons provide, Garchomp is a good choice. However, I just don't think that something like that is really worthy of S-Rank.

You forget that garchomp 102 speed, and while certainly not amazing, allows garchomp to outspeed kyurem-B, Haxorus, Salamence and Dragonite. 130 base attack is amazing and two powerful stab moves allow garchomp to dish out heavy damage. It also has a cruicial resistentence to SR, allowing it to switch in more often. Garchomp only has three viable counters and all of the get destoyed by fire blast in the sun. Finally, garchomp has good coverage, unlike lati@s , and cannot be walled. Garchomp is not the jack of all trades because of his versatality, speed and power.

Also, haxorus is a worse CB user because of garchomps STAB on EQ.

 

[False Sense]

You forget that garchomp 102 speed, and while certainly not amazing, allows garchomp to outspeed kyurem-B, Haxorus, Salamence and Dragonite. 130 base attack is amazing and two powerful stab moves allow garchomp to dish out heavy damage. It also has a cruicial resistentence to SR, allowing it to switch in more often. Garchomp only has three viable counters and all of the get destoyed by fire blast in the sun. Finally, garchomp has good coverage, unlike lati@s , and cannot be walled. Garchomp is not the jack of all trades because of his versatality, speed and power.

Also, haxorus is a worse CB user because of garchomps STAB on EQ.

That's true, but there's still the Latis, which outspeed Garchomp as well as most of OU in general. That Ground typing is one of Garchomp's stronger points, for sure, although I've found it to be irritating that so many things are immune to it. Granted, a lot of Dragons use Earthquake anyway, so that's not the strongest point. I can also say that Salamence has very few counters, and most of those are obliterated by Fire Blast. Salamence also has a much higher Special Attack stat than Garchomp, as well as Moxie to take advantage of those kills.

Again, I feel that Garchomp has certainly has good uses and is a solid pokemon, but a lot of what it does is done better to an extent by other dragons. Garchomp does have it's unique qualities that helps it stand out, notably it's critical ground typing and unusual speed, but I don't think that those qualities put above all other dragons, which is what you're basically saying it is by putting it in S-Rank.

 

[Eleman]

Yeah I've used garchomp quite a few times and it really works. Two reasons, great STAB and just generally good stats. If you also factor in the pokemon in OU at this time, chomp can really be successful even without trolling with sand veil. It's only problem is low speed which is covered by its other good stats. With just a bit of team support, it can really do well.

 

[False Sense]

Ok then. You've presented some pretty valid arguments, so I don't think I'll bother trying to dispute them, since that won't get us anywhere. So, you've established that Garchomp has some solid qualities that give him uses over his competitors. So my question is this; do those qualities really make him S-Rank? Garchomp's key to success is his balance, versatility, and unique typing that gives him a good STAB and a resistance to Stealth Rocks. Does that justify S-Rank? And what is it about the other dragons that keep them from holding a similar honor?

 

[Schpoonman]

Dragonite is slow, Salamence is fragile, Latios is easily walled, and Latias isn't outstanding enough in any category to warrant S-Rank.

 

[Hemp Man]

Dragonite is slow, Salamence is fragile, Latios is easily walled, and Latias isn't outstanding enough in any category to warrant S-Rank.

Don't forget it's also the only one that resists Stealth Rock.

 

[False Sense]

So in other words, Garchomps versatility and balance of the other dragons qualities is what makes it S-Rank worthy. Ok then, I can understand that.

One thing that I just thought of; does the fact that Garchomp doesn't resist Water hinder it at all in this Rain infested metagame? Garchomp really doesn't like Rain too much, since it's Fire Blast is weakened and it's otherwise great typing can be preyed upon by powerful Hydro Pumps. What do you all think?

 

[False Sense]

Well, Landorus and Terrakion are doing fine aren't they? Unless you're proposing that they drop it down a notch because of rain...which is stupid because they are clearly S-Tier Pokemon...

I was sort of comparing it to other dragons, who care a little less about rain thanks to their resistances. It's not huge but it's something.

Anyway, you've put up some very good arguments and your logic is pretty sound. I still stand by that Garchomp is not the best dragon for any situation, but it is one of the most flexible and is very easy to fit onto teams. I suppose that that flexibility and versatility can make it S-Rank worthy.

Well, it's up to PK Gaming to decide now, but I think the arguments for Garchomp going to S-Rank are pretty good. I guess that's it for me then. Garchomp for S-Rank, I suppose.

 

[Magcargo]

After looking at the list, I saw victreebel at C-rank. Because it is outclassed by venusaur, I would like to nominate victreebel for D-Rank. Victreebel is horribly outclassed by venasuar, who has better defenses and higher speed. While victreebel can function as a competent swords dance pokemon, Sawsbuck is a better user of this move because of it's better neutral coverage with it's STABs and natural power. Victreebel needs the sun to be useful, as it becomes a mediocre pokemon without it. Although victreebel is a competent pokemon, being outclassed by venasaur and mediocre stats really damper its preformance.

Noob question: Why is swift swim banned but not Chlorophyll?

 

[Sork]

Actually, Victreebel actually has quite a better niche than Venusaur, do to the fact that Victreebel has access to weather ball, which is devastating in sun, and can run that along side HP Ice, giving it great coverage against the Dragon types that constantly wall Venusaur. Also, it has a great move in sucker punch that if the weather is changed and something faster comes in, it still has a way to deal with it. And the good thing about weather ball is that if the weather is changed, then Victreebel can have a fire type move, a water type move, an ice type move, and a rock type move all at the same time. Along with access to growth, sleep powder, swords dance, and a lot of the other moves that venusaur usually runs (bar earthquake), Victreebel has a niche to where it can be a more effective special sweeper or mixed sweeper than Venusaur can.

Also, the reason why Swift Swim is banned is because unlike Pokes with Chlorophyll, All the Pokes with Swift Swim are water type, which allows them to have +2 speed, and practically a super effective move on types that are neutral to water (with the 1.5x stab boost and the 1.5x rain boost), and even allows them to have practically an unstabbed neutral attack on types that resist it. On the other hand, all Chlorophyll users are Grass types, and the only Fire type move they have access to (bar victreebel with weather ball in sun) is HP Fire. It's also due to the fact that there are so many swift swim users available, while there are really only 3 viable chlorophyll sweepers (venusaur, victreebel, and sawsbuck.)

 

[False Sense]

I think that Victreebel is perfectly fine in C-Rank. You basically said that Victreebel's main problem is just being outclassed by Venusaur. Well, that's why it's in C-Rank.

Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

Victreebel seems to fit that nicely, doesn't it? D-Rank seems a bit harsh, considering it is certainly viable and is not "more trouble than it's worth."

Also, Swift Swim is banned because Rain is overpowered with it. Sun has certain flaws that rain doesn't have, and these good qualities combined with Swift Swim was just too much, so Rain was neutered by removing Swift Swim + Drizzle. That's a really basic explanation, but I hope it suffices.

 

[Magcargo]

Actually, Victreebel actually has quite a better niche than Venusaur, do to the fact that Victreebel has access to weather ball, which is devastating in sun, and can run that along side HP Ice, giving it great coverage against the Dragon types that constantly wall Venusaur. Also, it has a great move in sucker punch that if the weather is changed and something faster comes in, it still has a way to deal with it. And the good thing about weather ball is that if the weather is changed, then Victreebel can have a fire type move, a water type move, an ice type move, and a rock type move all at the same time. Along with access to growth, sleep powder, swords dance, and a lot of the other moves that venusaur usually runs (bar earthquake), Victreebel has a niche to where it can be a more effective special sweeper or mixed sweeper than Venusaur can.

Well, depending on the weather, weather ball can leave you walled by certain pokemon. However, you are right about weather ball and HP Ice giving victreebell a better time against certain pokemon, thus giving it a major boon over venusaur.


On a seprate note, I would like to nominate exeguttor for C-Rank. Exeguttor has two powerful STABs in leaf storm and psychic. It can run a swords dance set thanks to it's access to wood hammer, natural power and zen headbutt. This set is powerful enough to OHKO tyranitar, heatran and latios. Exeguttor may seem weak when compared to venasuar, but STAB psychic moves and access to leaf storm allow it to differentiate itself. While STAB on psychic moves doesn't seem very helpful, it allows exeguttor to do great Damage to toxicroak, who would normally wall venusaur. Exeguttor is a powerful force in the metagame, despite not being as powerful as latios and Keldeo.