Would anyone be interested in a 12 vs 12 metagame?

[gbagcn]

I posted this on the OU forum but I was told to post this here instead:

Lately I have been thinking about what a 12 vs 12 pokemon battle would be like. The most obvious advantage over standard battling that I can think of would be that it would allow you to cover your weaknesses easier. Doing things like finding a spot in your team for a rapid spinner wouldn't be as hard. The biggest downside though is that the matches would take longer. So what do you guys think? If there was an option for 12 vs 12 battles would you play it? If not would a lower number like 10 or 8 be more interesting? I know it would take some work to put it in pokemon showdown but it shouldn't be any harder than putting in those create a pokemon things in. I am interested in hearing some opinions about this because I have never seen it discussed.

 

[youngjake93]

Dragonite, Garchomp, Latios, Salamence, Hydreigon, Latias, Kyurem-Black, Haxorus, Kingdra, Magneton, Magnezone, Mamoswine

I call it 9Drag2Mag1Pigmammoth

 

[Arcticblast]

I'm not sure if it's possible on Pokemon Showdown (I can't check right now) but a 12v12 metagame sounds pretty interesting. Offense could be absolutely overwhelming, as it could keep throwing sweepers in one after the other.

Dragonite, Garchomp, Latios, Salamence, Hydreigon, Latias, Kyurem-Black, Haxorus, Kingdra, Magneton, Magnezone, Mamoswine

I call it 9Drag2Mag1Pigmammoth

Skarmory, Bronzong, Heatran, Steelix, Lucario, Forretress, Registeel, Hippowdon, Slowbro, Sandslash, Scizor, Tangrowth.

Hah.

 

[Zarel]

Various parts of the Pokemon Showdown engine assume a maximum of 6 pokemon on a team, but other than tracking the opponent's team, none of them should be too hard to change.

 

[Yarnus of Bethany]

I would be interested in this.

 

[Joim]

This is an interesting concept, but I'd say that matches will exponentially grow in turns.

 

[Gerard]

I can see hazards being even more annoying in this meta, though it would be interesting to see if styles like stall or sun can do with the additional members (as many times it has been proved how they lack members to take care of some chores)

 

[jrp]

12v12 pokemon with 8 moveslots like that one custom meta

gg

this actually sounds really cool if it could be implemented though

like everyone is saying, Offense is gonna be king

Also baton pass since you can have more sweepers + set up mons

 

[Imanalt]

A concern i have with this meta is that the increase in teambuilding difficulty will discourage a lot of people from making teams, which will limit it somewhat. Sounds like a fun metagame though hopefully

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

I remember someone bringing up a 7v7 metagame a while ago. Any amount other than six would be interesting (though I think seven would be better for teambuilding though).

 

[youngjake93]

A concern i have with this meta is that the increase in teambuilding difficulty will discourage a lot of people from making teams, which will limit it somewhat. Sounds like a fun metagame though hopefully

I think it would decrease difficulty tbh. You don't have to be as precise picking 6 that go together perfectly. You can just throw a bunch of stuff together as long as you battle well.

I also think this would be the perfect way to make bad luck less of an issue without removing hax features. A match-up difference making crit counts for a whole lot less if you have 12 Pokemon. Plus with Wish, Heal Bell and Rapid Spin support being able to easily find a teamslot, stall would be viable.

This could also bring some NU mons such as Golurk to OU that serve an obvious niche(counter Terrakion), but "aren't worth the team slot". Hard counters that make it onto your team would switch the momentum of the battle fast regardless of how well they match up against the rest of OU.

Also,
Venusaur, Charizard, Blastoise, Pikachu, Meganium, Typhlosion, Feraligatr, Sceptile, Swampert, Torterra, Infernape, Empoleon

Best team ever obviously because no gen 5

 

[Sound]

I'd give it a try.

Tyranitar + Landorus + Ninetails + Venusaur + Heatran + Politoed + Keldeo + Ferrothorn + Abomasnow + Kyurem + Starmie + Dragonite.

All four weathers on one team. Let's go.

 

[Farobi]

This is cool. 12v12 battles take too long though. But that's just me.

 

[Nozzle]

Suddenly Beat Up Weavile is everywhere.
Hope your opponent doesn't switch into scarf Terrakion .or something.

Good point. Beat up will be interesting if it gets 120 base power max. Also i do think stall would be more viable but 12 mons take a goddamn long time to take down when using stall.

 

[Darknesscrusher]

Would be cool, I guess. Something like Shell Smash passers could actually work, I guess.

 

[youngjake93]

Beat Up's base power works differently in Gen 5:
If your team has an average of 100 base attack, Beat Up's base power is 15 x 12 = 180.

In theory, in standard 6 vs 6 battles Beat Up can have up to 126 BP when used by Weavile if your team has Deoxys-A, Kyurem-B, Rampardos, Slaking and Regigigas.

In 12 vs 12 that goes up to 244.2 if you add Zekrom, Groudon, Rayquaza, Haxorus, Landorus-T and one of Conkeldurr, Archeops, Darmanitan or Rhyperior.

Without ubers it's quite a bit lower than that but still ridicolously powerful.

People still seem to not know what beat up does in Gen V...
"Beat Up's power is now based solely on the user's base attack (rather than each team member individually), divided by 10, with 5 power added to the result. Beat Up no longer lists the Pokémon that is using Beat Up, and has a chance of landing a critical hit for each hit. Beat Up now receives STAB from Dark-type users and no longer deals typeless damage. Beat Up ignores changes to stat levels like from Swords Dance, but each hit does increase in power from attack boosting items like Choice Band, provided that that item is held by the user."

Weavile:
(120/10+5)*12*1.5(STAB)=306 base power that can be boosted with Choice Band.
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Beat Up vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 386-454 (119.13 - 140.12%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Lucario and Cobalion have a double resist and Justified for the best match up:
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Beat Up vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 236-278 (83.68 - 98.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Beat Up vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Cobalion: 121-142 (31.34 - 36.78%) -- guaranteed 4HKO


Soo assuming Beat Up will be allowed 12 hits, Cobalion and Weavile would be used a lot.

 

[WasSollDas]

Since you can use more pokemon in 1 team, pokes which are very good when used but need some support might fare a bit better in this meta.
Also, I agree with Imanalt; teambuilding will be quite difficult, as it would be more confusing to create synergy between 12 pokemon.
Nevertheless, it sounds quite interesting and would be a cool metagame for anybody who likes a long match.

 

[Bluwing]

I think a 12v12 meta is going to be overkill as you can literally just spam offensive threaths and there will be nothing even called "predictions" due too the offensive pressure, damn even hazards will be useless as you can easely fit a spinner + bouncer with no problems at all. Therefore I think something like 8v8 will be more competitive and fun, it will also not take ages to battle and making synergy in your team will be easier. I still think that 6v6 will be more prefereable due to it's competitive nature and just not be overkill overall.

 

[youngjake93]

It works as I said and the way Bulbapedia says. I always run King's Rock Beat Up on lead Weavile.
102 BP(153 with STAB) and 60% chance to flinch.. Just because people don't use it doesn't mean it doesn't work that well.

 

[sonicfan7895]

I can see rain becoming the dominant weather in this meta, because with 12 Pokemon, there are going to be more Water-types or Pokemon that get boosted Water-type moves in the rain. Here's a team:

Thundurus (Therian or Incarnate), Floatzel, Regice, Kingdra, Jellicent, Keldeo, Kabutops, Gastrodon, Toxicroak, Cradily, Crawdaunt, and Wailord

 

[Arizona]

Am I the only one that thinks stall might be helped more than offense? Since we're all slinging theorymon let me hit you with this:

1v1 is the worst for stall. It is pure offense. 3v3 is also quite bad for stall. Stall is better in 6v6. Extending the trend, stall would be better the more pokemon per team. If hazards hit twice as many pokemon, they are twice as good. Conversly, a powerful attack knocking out one pokemon in a 12v12 is half as significant as in 6v6. And screens/tailwind and such are easier to wear down.

Moreover, it is much easier to cover everything defensively with twice as many slots while still having a cleric and such. Spinners still have to get past ghosts, perhaps two or three! And magic bounce cannot reliably stop hazards since so many pokemon learn Stealth Rock, and you can't just switch Espeon into every other pokemon you see. It will be much harder to predict which pokemon will use Stealth Rock ahead of time. There could easily be multiple spike-capable pokes too. With 48 moveslots, any defensive team has space for haze to beat full baton pass. And since it's easier to fit niche pokemon on a team, there's always Ditto to quelch hyper offense and quick pass.

 

[Magcargo]

Skarmory and other phazers with hazards would be very important, making rapid spin mandatory.

 

[youngjake93]

It's 53%.

I know, same thing.

 

[Gerard]

Though with 12 hits it's about 75%

 

[Pikachuun]

[Off topic yet on topic :L] I support this.
I was like thinking of modding a Pokemon game so that Double Battles can cap at 12 Pokes. Too bad I have sucky experience with game modding ;_;