The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

[puregenius]

Whimsicott can actually create many free turns with encore and taunt
Shaymin s has to rely on the opponent to switch out to get a free sub up and the possibility of choice scarf kyogre can really screw u over (don't get me wrong I still think skymin is better due to his offensive presence)

As for hippo, the ability to stall out groudon, as hack mentioned, is very significant, in fact sandstorm, toxic and slack off can take their toll on many pokemon
Which brings me to another point, hippo is the only weather starter with reliable recovery which is just huge
So yes, he's definitely viable

 

[Manaphy]

Whimsicott's has a massive amount of just unessecary prediction behind it though. Should I encore his Stealth Rock or risk him switching out into literally any Pokemon he wants? Spinners can also completely stall it out thanks to Rapid Spin and it's complete lack of offensive presence. You said it has a specific niché in stall so please elaborate.

Hippowdon is a solid B-tier IMO. It can bring up the sand and completely wall Extremekiller Arceus and roar it out, along with being able to heal the damage which is impressive.

 

[Bryce]

I disagree, Hippowdon fits B-rank because it can properly fullfill a given defensive niche.

Having used Hippowdon extensively, I hardly agree that you can compare Arceus Ground to the hippo simply because of Sand Stream which allows it to get rid of sun and combat Ho-oh much better, than say Arceus Ground or Groudon (especially Groudon who brings sun to fuel the phoenix's attacks).

Hippowdon can only be outclassed as a Sand summoner, and by that it can only be outclassed in its niche by Tyranitar, which it isn't as it has reliable recovery, and the ability to take on Groudon much better. It's primary role is not walling, but rather supporting which no Arceus-Ground can ever weigh up, especially with that extremely high opportunity cost. Also, Hippowdon has nothing against carrying Stealth Rock for its team, something an Arceus form always hates.

C-rank states that the Pokémon can only be capable of functioning with specific support, but Hippowdon is self-reliant in the sense that it brings its own support by default. It does not a very specific niche either, a niche that C-rank mons depend on, for example Ditto's incapabilty of functioning against all teams and so forth. There is a difference between these C mons and Hippowdon, and that is Sand Stream, which is instant support and that can't be overlooked.

I haven't used Hippo in Ubers so my point was most probably flawed.I did not compare it from the viewpoint of a Sand streamer rather from the view point of a wall.It was simply an assumption.

Now that you explain it,B-Tier seems suitable since it's main job is summoning sand storm while being a solid wall with low opportunity cost,while being able to act as viable wall on Rain teams with Sand Force.My mistake.

 

[Magcargo]

Well, I have never used hippowdon either, and tbh, it seems like it is better than both gliscor and landuros-T. It's just as good as Ttar, so I would say it is B-Rank.

 

[Manaphy]

Well, I have never used hippowdon either, and tbh, it seems like it is better than both gliscor and landuros-T. It's just as good as Ttar, so I would say it is B-Rank.

Gliscor and Landorus-T both run completely different roles; Gliscor's a stall-breaker and annoyed and Landorus-T is a momentum Scarfer.

But yeah let's get some b-tier for Hippowdon.

 

[rileydelete]

Whimsicott's niche is that it can disrupt enemies incredibly well due to its unique moveset being aided by Prankster.
This makes itself evident in two ways:

1) Whimsicott can shut down a ton of Pokemon.

With Prankster-boosted Taunt, it shuts down defensively based pokemon like Lugia, Ferrothorn, Chansey, Sleep Talk users, and the newly added Deoxys D.
But it's real danger is that it can lock so many set up pokemon into their set up move through priority Encore. If either of these moves are used successfully, there will nearly always be a switch out. Whimsicott can take advantage of these team-disrupting movements because...

2) Whimsicott is the greatest user of the Subseed strategy in the entire game.

As the official SmogonDex article states, "it takes the infamous Subseed to a whole new level." Why is this? Because after a substitute is set up that does not break from an enemy attack, Whimsicott can safely use Leech Seed. If this happens, this Pokemon becomes nigh on impossible to kill. It's Substitutes have priority. This makes it so that Whimsicott will almost always create a Substitute before the enemy attacks.
-With leftovers and Leech Seed, it restores around 18% health each turn while Substitute only costs 25%.
-At a cost to 6% hp per turn, the opponent will lose 12.5% each turn and will be unable to kill the cotton ball. If you have something like toxic spikes on the field, the opponent loses even MORE health each turn. Whimsicot really functions great on stall teams and can be used on a rain team with things like Tentacruel to really bring the pain.

Now again, Whimsicott does not belong in a higher tier, but it has a niche because of it's priority-aided moveset. This Pokemon belongs in the C-tier because has a specific niche that can really be abused with the right team support. Outside this niche-Whimsicott falls flat, but inside it, it becomes one of the most devious Pokemon ever created.

 

[Magcargo]

I would like to nominate ninjask for D-Rank. It can function if your foe lacks a phazer, but it has a weakness to SR, vulnerabilty to taunt and phazing, and is completely useless late game. However, if your foes has zero taunt users, and is a hyper offensive team, ninjask can prove to be useful. However watch out for deoxys-s, excadrill and other pokemon with abilities that boost their speed.

 

[polop]

I would like to nominate ninjask for D-Rank. It can function if your foe lacks a phazer, but it has a weakness to SR, vulnerabilty to taunt and phazing, and is completely useless late game. However, if your foes has zero taunt users, and is a hyper offensive team, ninjask can prove to be useful. However watch out for deoxys-s, excadrill and other pokemon with abilities that boost their speed.

Eh, Ninjask also is screwed over by the presence of priority and it really has trouble getting a mon to switch in without getting damaged / phazed. Relying on Protect to get a Speed boost is asking for trouble since mons can switch or set up Stealth Rocks while you Protect. Relying on fast Substitutes prevent the switch-in from coming in safely (honestly, if you see a Ninjask on a team its obviously gonna lead, meaning you can put a mon that can take out ninjasks subs in the first slot and not really worry since when it subs down to 1 hp it'll be forced to pass with just speed and the mon coming in will have to take a hit). It won't ever be able to use Swords Dance without relying on a Focus Sash, and even then, how will you get that Rayquaza / Groudon in safely without taking an extremely powerful attack to the face ?_? Honestly, if it should be ranked I think E would be best... it was decently effective last meta since you COULD play some tricks without team preview but this meta (I know hugen did use it successfully but that was last gen...)... it even got rejected when someone tried giving it an analysis. Like Shedinja, you probably can use it if you build an entire team tailored to its needs, but even then it won't be able to perform well consistently, and at that point something else would do its job better (I'm referring to Smeargle specifically since its basically a Ninjask with Spore and Shell Smash).

As for Hippowdown, I'm in full support of the it being placed at B rank. I've already posted my reasoning as has Poppy earlier in the thread (Poppy if don't want me to use your post you may edit it out / VM me so that I can edit it out). As for Whimsicott, while I was originally in favor of getting it to C rank, I must retract my statement and say it fits D rank at best. It is true that Whimsicott has a massive movepool and moveset that can annoy many a Pokemon, although it is also true that it needs a ton of support to be used successfully. Whimsicott cannot handle Grass-types or Rapid Spinners, but thats not all. It needs some hazard support to be effective, or else it doesn't matter whether it does spam sub seed, the enemy can always just switch / recover stall if needed. Hazards discourage this for obvious reasons, but it doesn't help much that the poor thing doesn't spin block. It contributes little defensive synergy and needs help coming in to the game too (unless you can predict setup move in which case your fine but then you have to decide between Encoring the move (and not predicting the switch) or Substituting and predicting the switch). It absolutely needs spinner support of its own, or at least some way to stop Toxic Spikes unless it wants to fail to fulfill its niche against certain teams. I would infact push it towards E rank if it wasn't shown to be decently effective on quick stall (does anyone even use this now a days ?_?), but the play style itself is near forgotten (mostly due to the fact its not very effective). It does have a niche, one that it can perform that not many others can boast, but its extremely small, and one that's not exactly effective in the current meta.

With this being said lets look at what D rank is defined as:

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are simply not very effective in the current metagame

Its not E rank material since it has a niche, but simply put, that niche isn't effective... Recall that if your just looking for priority Taunt that you have to compete with Thundurus and Tornadus too (mostly Thundurus since he can decently anti-lead thanks to his ability to kill the lead and paralyze the revenge killer). Really, he can only do sub seed well, (tailwind is outclassed by Tornadus IMO, unless Tailwind + Memento but...), but that again, just isn't effective in the current meta, not to mention you have to be extremely good at predicting to use it.

 

[Magcargo]

Skarmory

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You might be suprised to see skarmory in the B-Rank because of its low BST. However, skarmory fufills an important role in the uber tier. Skarmory's main role in the uber tier is to counter Extreme killer arceus and several other pokemon like defensive lugia and some variants of Groudon. Often, it can setup spikes against them or phaze them out. Because his physical defense is so high, Skarmory can invest all of his EVs in special bulk to take moves like timid life orb rayquaza's draco meteor. However, Skarmory faces stiff competition from ferrothorn and forretress as a wall and a spiker. While both of these pokemon have advantages over skarmory, access to taunt, reliable recovery and whirlwind are more than enough for Skarmory to differentiate himself from those two. When using skarmory, proper team support is required. First, you need a pokemon that is is resistent to Fire and electric moves since skarmory will usually become a fried chicken after taking those moves. Luckily, there are several dragon type pokemon like zekrom and lati@s who can tank these moves. You also need a pokemon that can tank a special hit because skarmory isn't going to like tanking special attacks, even with special defense investment. Blissey and chansey are two pokemon who can fufill this role. Skarmory may not be the first choice that comes in mind when you are building a team, but when used properly, this bird might just suprise you.

Also, I withdraw my arguement on ninjask. It SHOULD be E-Rank.

 

[blitzlefan]

I don't think we need to place low-value Pokemon like Ninjask on the list right? Because A) it's not very common and B) it suggests that it has some merit, which it pretty much doesn't.

 

[Pikachuu]

Hippowdon is really not that good to be B tier material especially not with special attackers and mixed attackers everywhere. Tyranitar is a lot better let me tell you why. Hippowdon can't do anything to Darkrai, Tyranitar can run Lum Berry and OHKO with Superpower. LO Darkrai can't OHKO Tyranitar with Focus Blast btw. Tyranitar beats most leads such as Focus Sash Deoxys-S limiting it to only setting Stealth Rock because of SS damage. Tyranitar also beats most Dialga Stealth Rock leads because of his insane special defense in the sand. Lum Berry Tyranitar can also beat Lugia one on one if it's running Payback which does about 50% with Multiscale broken. Tyranitar can eliminate even Grass Knot Lati@s variants with proper prediction. Tyranitar can tank a Water Spout from full health Modest Kyogre if it ever has to. Can check Ho-Oh and Giratina-O too even +1 Arceus Ghost after some residual damage. Beats Mewtwo one on one with Payback too LO Aura Sphere fails to KO Tyranitar. It can pursuit Choice Scarf Shaymin-S again with good prediction making it last a lot less if Steath Rock is up along with the residual damage from Sandstorm. Now I know Tyranitar doesn't have recovery outside or rest but it can easily be paired with a wish passer such as Jirachi or Chansey or heck Chesto Rest Tyranitar isn't a bad idea I've seen people using that before and it worked wonders. Hippowdon sure has it's uses but I think C tier would be best for him. The problem with it is that it constantly has to recover and it can't wall Choice Band Pokemon like Zekrom or Mixed attackers like Rayquaza which is the reason you are trying to even use Hippowdon over Tyranitar which is to tank physical hits. Hippowdon also can't deal with Arceus Extremekiller +2 LO Extremespeed 2HKO's and only thing Hippowdon can do is phase it.

 

[lousy918]

Hippowdon is really not that good to be B tier material especially not with special attackers and mixed attackers everywhere. Tyranitar is a lot better let me tell you why. Hippowdon can't do anything to Darkrai, Tyranitar can run Lum Berry and OHKO with Superpower. LO Darkrai can't OHKO Tyranitar with Focus Blast btw. Tyranitar beats most leads such as Focus Sash Deoxys-S limiting it to only setting Stealth Rock because of SS damage. Tyranitar also beats most Dialga Stealth Rock leads because of his insane special defense in the sand. Lum Berry Tyranitar can also beat Lugia one on one if it's running Payback which does about 50% with Multiscale broken. Tyranitar can eliminate even Grass Knot Lati@s variants with proper prediction. Tyranitar can tank a Water Spout from full health Modest Kyogre if it ever has to. Can check Ho-Oh and Giratina-O too even +1 Arceus Ghost after some residual damage. Beats Mewtwo one on one with Payback too LO Aura Sphere fails to KO Tyranitar. It can pursuit Choice Scarf Shaymin-S again with good prediction making it last a lot less if Steath Rock is up along with the residual damage from Sandstorm. Now I know Tyranitar doesn't have recovery outside or rest but it can easily be paired with a wish passer such as Jirachi or Chansey or heck Chesto Rest Tyranitar isn't a bad idea I've seen people using that before and it worked wonders. Hippowdon sure has it's uses but I think C tier would be best for him. The problem with it is that it constantly has to recover and it can't wall Choice Band Pokemon like Zekrom or Mixed attackers like Rayquaza which is the reason you are trying to even use Hippowdon over Tyranitar which is to tank physical hits. Hippowdon also can't deal with Arceus Extremekiller +2 LO Extremespeed 2HKO's and only thing Hippowdon can do is phase it.

T-tar needs 116 Atk EVs with a neutral nature or 0 EVs with a positive nature to OHKO Darkrai. Without a positive SDef nature, it fails to survive Darkrai's LO Focus Blast all the time and takes 92% min, guaranteeing weather war lost

Hippowdon hard walls Ho-oh to hell and back, what t-tar who cant do shit when burnt

+1 Ghostceus OHKOs

Hippowdon's bulk is almost that of Groudon's, with recovery and groudon cant do anything to Arceus

It has a niche, such as Zekrom, Ho-oh and many physical attackers

 

[Squidsauce]

I propose moving Ditto to A or B rank. Ubers is Ditto's best tier because of the prevalence of dragon types (which have moves super effective to themselves) and boosting pokemon like extreme killer arceus.

Ditto is the clutch that every offensive team needs, since it doesn't have bulky walls to fend off against set up sweepers. Ditto is more important to HO teams than spikes.

It also has a shit ton of switch ins (chansey, genesect, etc) and even takes adv of the other pokemon's ability (regenerator ho oh, natural cure, etc). It even sweeps teams taht are reliant on DDance or SD sweepers. I think it's a solid A rank, but at the very least B rank

 

[jrp]

Ditto is not good in ubers. With the prevalence of scarfmons, Ditto is often going to be relying on speed ties to accomplish anything. You mention Dragons, but a good portion of dragons in ubers (Zekrom, Reshiram, Kyurem-W) run Choice Scarf. If you're against latias, you fail to OHKO with dragon pulse (because of soul dew) and risk getting setup on. Same with Latios, who just flat out wrecks you with Draco Meteor.

 

[lousy918]

actually reshiram and kyurem-w run specs more often
ditto is a revenge killer, so it can revenge ddray too (and many others)
however it sucks against stall
maybe c-rank?

 

[blitzlefan]

Ditto is probably C-rank at best, as its forced to speed tie with any opposing scarfers, which is unreliable. Also, the lack of versatility (being forced to run a Choice Scarf) can leave it set up bait if the opponent also has a Steel type, for example. Also, against some teams, it's basically dead weight, for example stall teams.

Edit: I just realized... are the write-ups over?

 

[Tobes]

No, I just haven't been updating them.

Also no way in hell is Ditto A-rank lol. It's fine in C.

 

[Squidsauce]

Deadweight against stall teams....?

How about using it to set up 3 layers of spikes against ferrothorn
Or spin using forretress

....

Well looks like I'm outnumbered. I will say I'm now #1 in ubers though, using a team with ditto :D

 

[jrp]

Deadweight against stall teams....?

How about using it to set up 3 layers of spikes against ferrothorn
Or spin using forretress

....

Well looks like I'm outnumbered. I will say I'm now #1 in ubers though, using a team with ditto :D

I reached 4 with charizard

Please don't think you're special for capping the ubers ladder X_x

 

[Magcargo]

(Jumpluff)

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Jumpluff seems to be a pokemon not worth using in ubers if you look at its stats. However, looks can be decieving. In the sun, Jumpluff reaches a speed of 700, meaning that only CS deoxy-s can outspeed it. However, because its low offensive stats, jumpluff must rely on its support movepool to do anything useful. With sleep powder and encore, jumpluff can cripple certain pokemon like calm mind mewtwo and excadrill and the subseed set can be very annoying if used properly. However, it doesn't support the team very well because of its low 75/70/85 defense and weakness to SR, meaning that one cannot hastily switch jumpluff in. Also, It cannot support its team properly if the sun is not up, making it essentialy useless. Because of its lack of offensive presence, pokemon like ferrothorn can use it as setup bait if the sleep clause is active. If you want to use jumpluff, certain accommodations are required. Obviously you need groudon to set up the sun, as jumpluff is useless outside of the sun. Next, you need a pokemon that can lure in ground type moves, such as dialga, because jumpluff can only switch into ground type moves. Jumpluff will more often than not be ineffective, but if used properly, jumpluff can become a menance.

 

[Squidsauce]

I reached 4 with charizard

Please don't think you're special for capping the ubers ladder X_x

I used the ":D" face to show I understand that topping the ladder only means so much.

But I did top it by quite a bit. I'm 250pts above #2. Pressure is on to keep it up :o

 

[Sweep]

I reached 4 with charizard

Please don't think you're special for capping the ubers ladder X_x

I'm currently #3 with Butterfree. Ladder ranking means little to nothing. Some of the best players on PS (Melee Mewtwo for example) are not laddered at all.

 

[blitzlefan]

Oh wow... even when I try my hardest, my peak was around 50ish... and you guys can pull it off with Charizard and Butterfree? wow... i need to practice a lot more.

"Deadweight against stall teams....?

How about using it to set up 3 layers of spikes against ferrothorn
Or spin using forretress"

That leaves you severe set up bait. Most Dittos are scarfed, I presume? So one offensive mon (some sort of set-up mon or cleaner) could wreck you if you're locked onto Spikes or Rapid Spin.

 

[Hack]

Ok, I think we are very off topic here, but I feel like I have to throw in my five cents on Ditto's placements as well as Squidsauce's apparent misunderstanding of how the ladder works. Now, I will refer to Weighted Stats FAQ (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3478570) where it is stated that the reliable way of estimating a player's skill is through Glicko2, and as you see on you ladder screenshot you are actually behing the #2 player on the ladder concerning Glicko2 as well as deviation, which is also important, as you only played 20 games. However, I respect you ladder achievement and its cool and all, but I hope you understand that being "250 points above #2" is a very subjective statement regarding both skill and well, the ladder rating itself.

Now why Ditto is in C-rank is very simply, it sucks against stall. As for this, I would like to bring up the guidelines for that very rank.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who perform specific niches and can be effective given the right support, but either are incapable of performing well outside of that niche or are heavily dependent on that support.

Now Ditto can of course copy itself into the opponents Forretress and spiking up, or Ferrothorn doing the same. The incredible risk of being entirely crippled by the extremely common Thunder Wave from Ferrothorn, as well as being set up fodder for Calm Minder users by locking itself into a support move against a balanced team, makes Ditto indeed heavily crippled outside its specific niche, which it can perform. With the right support you have managed to have a relatively hax free and judging by it, safe, run on the ladder which netted in a #1 spot, and your team has surely found such support for Ditto to work, but outside its role of revenge killing set up sweepers and occasionally stopping Deoxys-S leads, it is simply not that effective.

 

[Squidsauce]

Ok, I think we are very off topic here, but I feel like I have to throw in my five cents on Ditto's placements as well as Squidsauce's apparent misunderstanding of how the ladder works. Now, I will refer to Weighted Stats FAQ (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3478570) where it is stated that the reliable way of estimating a player's skill is through Glicko2, and as you see on you ladder screenshot you are actually behing the #2 player on the ladder concerning Glicko2 as well as deviation, which is also important, as you only played 20 games. However, I respect you ladder achievement and its cool and all, but I hope you understand that being "250 points above #2" is a very subjective statement regarding both skill and well, the ladder rating itself.

Now why Ditto is in C-rank is very simply, it sucks against stall. As for this, I would like to bring up the guidelines for that very rank.



Now Ditto can of course copy itself into the opponents Forretress and spiking up, or Ferrothorn doing the same. The incredible risk of being entirely crippled by the extremely common Thunder Wave from Ferrothorn, as well as being set up fodder for Calm Minder users by locking itself into a support move against a balanced team, makes Ditto indeed heavily crippled outside its specific niche, which it can perform. With the right support you have managed to have a relatively hax free and judging by it, safe, run on the ladder which netted in a #1 spot, and your team has surely found such support for Ditto to work, but outside its role of revenge killing set up sweepers and occasionally stopping Deoxys-S leads, it is simply not that effective.

Point taken: never talk about ladder ranks lol.

Ok I guess I'm alone with ditto. I'll say that I've played many stall teams and it's always a great asset for me, especially for scouting movesets.

But perhaps it just fits well on my team and is very well C rank. I'll agree to disagree, and leave it at that.