Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Wizarus]

so in essence, wobbuffet's job is to kill choiced pokemon...that it can't switch into.

i see. what the fuck

Wobbuffet's job is to kill most Choice Scarf pokemon that it can switch into, so that other pokemon can boost without being revenge killed and provide set-up opportunities for those pokes. It can take out Specs and Band users too, but you have to either switch into a non-STAB move, a resisted move, or revenge kill them.

 

[Meru]

Staraptor in C-rank? Seriously? Show me one competitive team that Staraptor has been used on in OU... it falls short of the 108 benchmark while having jack shit for resistances to abuse switching in.

And I'm not sure why all of that chatter about Feraligatr ended up pushing him into B-rank. The dude needs rain, an optimal health range, no Toxic Spikes, no priority, an SD boost, and either has weak coverage moves (Mystic Water) or kills itself in Torrent range (LO). Also, most smart players won't push you into Torrent range. For example, instead of Celebi Giga Draining, the user can use Psychic instead, which dents Feraligatr enough for something like Latios to come in and finish the job, while hovering directly outside of non-Torrent Aqua Jet KO range. And finally, it has 4MSS and relies on teammates to take out stuff that will otherwise hard-wall it. Feraligatr is probably the quintessential C-rank pokemon. I don't think it should've been touched.

Also I don't agree with Wobbuffett being moved. In addition to all of the arguments postulated so far (that I agree with), I'd like to point out that Wobbuffett's niche is usually better accomplished by Specs/Expert Belt Gothitelle, who can also lay much more disruption to defensive teams.

I don't agree with Weavile either but maybe I could see the lowest of B-rank fitting it? I feel like C-rank was a better choice though.

 

[Schpoonman]

I'm a big fan of Staraptor, but even then I'm not too sure on his merits outside "Reckless Brave Bird Double Edge hits way too goddamn hard." Well, I'm not arguing, because he really does hit THAT HARD.

 

[Gary]

Gengar definitely deserves that A-Rank title. Most people only seem to only focus on its Sub +3 attacks set, but after trying both the Pain Split and Disable set, I must say that Gengar is quite a threat. Sure it shines as more of an offensive threat, but Disable makes its common revenge killers unable to deal with it if they have to break a Sub, since their main move for dealing with Gengar is now unusable. Pain Split is also a great set, as Gengar's poor HP stat allows it to acquire huge amounts of health from the likes of Jirachi, Celebi, and Blissey, while still posing as an offensive threat.

 

[Alter]

yeah ranks are always subjective to change. and speaking of which, i'd like to petition wobbuffet to be moved back down to c-rank where it belongs. honestly there's no room for wobb in the current metagame.

I disagree, Wobbuffet is very useful for being a broad check to tons of Pokemon. Not only can is easily trap and eliminate Pokemon with four-attacks in their moveslot (which is surpisingly common in OU), it can encore tons of non-attacking/status moves for other Pokemon to set up.

while back in dpp it used to be really good and was banned to ubers, that's back when attacks were less powerful and choice items used less often. nowadays it's like anything in the top 10 of usage stats can 2hko wobb or render it ineffective.

To an expect a Pokemon that can trap and eliminate specific targets (meaning that can't swap out unless under specific circumstances) is pretty ridiculous. Wobbuffet doesn't necessarily need to come in straight off an attack but is useful in offensive teams in which after you sack a now-useless Pokemon Wobbuffet can come in for free, kill and then hop out to wreak stuff up later.

scizor's at the very top of the usage stats and it's arguably the pokemon that wobb can do the least to. other stuff like keldeo in rain, latios, specs politoed, tyranitar, and breloom can either 2hko wobbuffet as it tries to switch in, or incapacitate it and finish it off from there.

As I just mentioned, it's not necessary for Wobbuffet to hop straight in and with some simple prediction or Ev spread alteration it can counter some of those specific mons quite well.

plus there's the whole element of having no attacks and when placed in a 50/50 scenario i.e. will this breloom bullet seed or swords dance, it's basically a coin flip as to whether you're even going to kill ONE of the opponent's pokemon or not.

I think this is pretty broad considering the entire game is made up of prediction. To neglect one useful Pokemon simply because it's hard to throw into *everything* would be bizzare -- espicially considering how much Wobbuffet can cover and effectively glue up holes.

so yeah sure, wobb's kinda good at killing momentum, but there's better options available outside of wobb's extremely limited niche. overall the metagame has grown too fast and too furious for something that jesse uses in the tv show.

It really depends on the team to be honest. I think a Pokemon that can easily revenge kill a Pokemon that would otherwise give your team trouble with only a slight bit of prediction necessary is too good to throw out as garbage. Not many things can really KO it from the get go bar specific super effective things.

so in essence, wobbuffet's job is to kill choiced pokemon...that it can't switch into.

Actually, Wobbuffet can switch into a plethora of choiced mons - espicially when you can basically choose the move for them if you have the slightest bit of prediction. Even then, if Wobbuffet gets damaged doing this he can threaten Pokemon with Encore / Custap Bond afterwards.

Keep Wobbuffet in B rank. A Pokemon that was banished to ubers in the past two generations doesn't deserve such a low ranking considering how amazing it can be at killing choice users and helping weather wars.

 

[Lork]

Huh. Ranks seem to be getting much more lenient nowadays...

i agree.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

i agree.

I agree as well. It seems like this thread has turned into "I think this Pokemon is really awesome and cool, so it should be X rank. Pretty please?".

 

[Cryptogram]

yeah ok A was a bit of an exaggeration, but its at least a C
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-14633277

 

[Schpoonman]

I agree as well. It seems like this thread has turned into "I think this Pokemon is really awesome and cool, so it should be X rank. Pretty please?".

I think that's a bit of a stretch. Presumably PK reads the arguments and makes the final call. I'd hesitate to say that he's so careless as to let anything undeserving go by. On the subject of Wobbuffet, goddammit he's BL because he's damn good but doesn't get a lot usage. The only difference between DPP (where he is Uber) and now is that getting rid of Mamoswine doesn't guarantee that Salamence sweeps every time. The metagame evolved to make it harder for sweepers to do their job but Wobbuffet is still extremely capable.

 

[False Sense]

yeah ok A was a bit of an exaggeration, but its at least a C
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-14633277

Now, C-Rank is something I can understand, although that video in particular doesn't really show off any of Chandelure's best traits. I mean, you sweeped a team late game with a Choice Scarf Fire type with Fire Blast. Heatran, heck, even Darmanitan and Victini could have done the same thing. I'd like to see something demonstrating Chandlure's assets over its competition, and then I might be convinced.

Although, to be fair, C-Rank doesn't sound too bad for it.

 

[alexwolf]

I don't get why Staraptor was raised to C Rank. I have yet to hear a good reason as to why i would use Staraptor over any other Choice user. Can someone honestly tell me that he would use Choice Scarf Staraptor over scarfed Keldeo, Salamence, Latios, Jirachi, Terrakion, and Garchomp? And i mean use him in a unique way that no other Pokemon can do, not just to use it. In the same vein, why would i use Choice Band Staraptor over Band Terrakion, Band Kyu-B, Band Ttar, Specs Latios, and other similar hard hitters? Staraptor has a unique combination of shitty defensive typing, SR weakness, and shitty bulk, meaning that switching it into something is almost impossible. Add to this the fact that it must bring itself to KO range of every priority user if it wants to kill something (due to recoil) and you have a Pokemon that will get a kill at most in a game and then get forced out, while never getting the chance to switch into the game again.

As for Feraligatr, some of the arguments against it here are really bad. Feraligatr can sweep whole teams when played right and puts huge offensive pressure as it is practically unwallable and gets many setup opportunities due to its good bulk and typing(yeah he is unwallable with just Aqua Jet + Waterfall + Crunch), making for a very good choice on rain offense teams. His ability to weaken water-resists is unparraleled and makes cleaning with Keldeo or Gyarados much easier. Finally even though Gatr is slow, its excellent bulk and priority make it useful even against very offensive teams. Low B rank is perfect for Feraligatr!

Finally, everyone lay off of PK's back. He is not making changes according to what every random guy tells him, he picks the well-made arguments in this thread, and combines them with his own judgment and the opinion of good tour players and this how he makes the viability ranking list. Do you honestly think that the guy that successfully has been running the viability ranking lists in both OU and UU would rank Pokemon based on random band wagoning?

 

[Alter]

Now, C-Rank is something I can understand, although that video in particular doesn't really show off any of Chandelure's best traits. I mean, you sweeped a team late game with a Choice Scarf Fire type with Fire Blast. Heatran, heck, even Darmanitan and Victini could have done the same thing. I'd like to see something demonstrating Chandlure's assets over its competition, and then I might be convinced.

Although, to be fair, C-Rank doesn't sound too bad for it.

Sadly I think Chandelure's best role is simply to clean up using a Scarf since it doesn't have the durability nor does it have the Speed to be able to actively jump into the game and deal powerful blows (or play any other role). Still definitely C-rank worthy but since it's outclassed by Heatran in some aspects such as Heatran's arguably superior typing and stat composition.

Chandelure can still be used as an alternate to Heatran if you prefer (or the team benefits more from its Ghost typing, if the extra boost in power helps or to fill some other specific role. Really though, Chandelure can't get higher than C due to its limitation in almost needing Sun to prosper and its poor bulk compounded by a SR weakness.

In a similar vein, Feraligatr is also quite reliant on weather. While I disagree with its placement (as I think it's too high), I can understand the justification seeing as Rain is more dominant than Sun in the current meta.

snip

I definitely agree with alexwolf. Starapator is simply outclassed by other things and I don't really think it should be that high. Sure - it's in BL - but that doesn't mean it's any good whatsoever in OU, simply too powerful for UU. Starapator's STABs aren't doing it any justice either, wall by Steel types. Yeah, it gets Close Combat, but if it's running choiced it won't get a chance to switch moves. On another note, since it apparently needs a choice item to prosper I don't see how its Stealth Rock weakness is helping it achieve the hit and run tactics it so desires.

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

PK why would you move roserade up to B rank but not Gastrodon..

the logic behind this, I fail to understand it..

brb checks almost everything Roserade checks.. and more

brb did you even read my arguments for how good physically defensive gastrodon is in the current meta..

 

[Bossness]

OK... so I come back to this thread after a long time today and open A-tier. Something caught my eye: Kyurem. I originally nominated it for B-tier first (I actually thought it was A-tier back then, but I did not nominate it for A-tier as I thought that a large number of people would disagree with me), so I just want to ask for the links of the posts that nominated Kyurem for A-tier. Back then, it was one of the best checks to a Rock Polish Genesect (without SpA boost) in Hail as it could Roost stall for 2 turns and then KO it with Earth Power and it took less than 50% damage from any of Choice Scarf Genesect's moves.

You are welcome.

 

[alexwolf]

Backing up HabibsHotDogs on physically defensive Gastrodon. This thing is really hard to take down and difficult so switch into as well, especially with a SpA boost. The fact that it is almost impossible to OHKO it with a non-Grass-type move combined with Recover makes it very resilient and a real pain to take down. It is very common to see on the ladder teams that struggle to beat it once it gets in safely, and i am not talking about shitty teams, i am talking about good teams as well. Gastrodon gets a bad reputation, as many people know, because most people use the SpD set which is very prone to the physical side and still can't switch into really powerful special attacks such as LO/Specs Latios, any Keldeo variant (Secret Sword says hi), LO Starmie (Psyshock), and special Landorus (2HKO with Earth Power after SR), kind of wasting its potential. By running max physical Defense not only Gastrodon becomes more difficult to OHKO in general, but it also deals with some threats that it is supposed to check well but fails to do (because of Defense targeting special moves), such as LO Starmie and any Keldeo except for the CM and Specs variant. So Gastrodon for low-B Rank.

 

[Memphis Grizzly]

I'm actually very pleased with the new the updates, a few very good threats finally got the place they deserve.

 

[Halcyon.]

PK why would you move roserade up to B rank but not Gastrodon..

the logic behind this, I fail to understand it..

brb checks almost everything Roserade checks.. and more

brb did you even read my arguments for how good physically defensive gastrodon is in the current meta..

No. That's it. I'm done. I kept quiet last time people argued for this because I had already argued for dropping it and didn't feel like it was necessary since PK seemed to be on my side. Gastrodon is NOT GOOD IN THIS META. He's complete setup fodder for almost all setup sweepers except for Lucario and Thundurus-T. He certainly can't switch in on setup sweepers. Example: Dragonite has Multiscale up and uses DD. Gastro switches in, and eats an Outrage to the face only to do pitiful damage to Dragonite with Ice Beam. Not only that, but most banded Pokémon can at least 2HKO it anyway (some like Dragonite, Kyurem-B, and Haxorus can OHKO with prior damage).
But the real reason Gastrodon sucks is that this is a Landorus/Keldeo/Breloom metagame. Gastrodon is 2HKO'd at least by all three of those, and is easy setup fodder for Breloom. Not only that, but because this is a LKB metagame, Celebi is also everywhere. Ferrothorn has always been a staple as well, as has Venusaur. People don't really prepare for Gastrodon (cause they really never have to). But they DO prepare for Rotom-W, so Grass types are surprisingly common, and all of them beat Gastrodon. YES, he has a niche. But he doesn't deserve to be up there with some of the best walls in OU like Jellicent and Amoongus. Keep it C Rank!

 

[GCSChris]

Gengar definitely deserves that A-Rank title. Most people only seem to only focus on its Sub +3 attacks set, but after trying both the Pain Split and Disable set, I must say that Gengar is quite a threat. Sure it shines as more of an offensive threat, but Disable makes its common revenge killers unable to deal with it if they have to break a Sub, since their main move for dealing with Gengar is now unusable. Pain Split is also a great set, as Gengar's poor HP stat allows it to acquire huge amounts of health from the likes of Jirachi, Celebi, and Blissey, while still posing as an offensive threat.

I'd say that people are more focused on the sub-disable set, but i agree, he is still a huge underrated threat.

 

[PK Gaming]

(cracks knuckles)

Starting from today, the ranking tier list will divided into even more tiers. I'll be adding top, mid, and low as sub tiers. (represented by +, neutral and -) I think this will help in dealing with the discrepancy between Pokemon that exist in the same tier. I'll be to first to admit that Infernape being in the same tier as Snorlax is a little dumb.

@Staraptor: Are you guys serious? There's no use in kidding ourselves, C-rank is very much a "I think this pokemon is decent, it should be C-rank" rank. You're really going to bust me for putting Staraptor in that tier when it's arguably on of the few Pokemon that I could actually justify using in an OU match? Goodness. I might do a thing where I make C-tier and B-tier even stricter (and actually drop more Pokemon into D-tier). We'll see.

@Wobbuffet: I think I might be in the minority, but having the potential to trap and kill 2 Pokemon is freaking awesome. For those haven't caught on, Wobbuffet can actually do that now with Cutsap berry+Destiny Bond. Of course, some of the criticisms that Lavos brought up are valid(though Calm 28/252 Wobbuffet is very durable on the Special side) but I still think that a well played Wobbuffet can really fuck you over. After all, if its not trapping + killing a Pokemon, its giving you a free turn of set up with Encore. I might reverse this change, but Cutsap Destiny Bond Wobbuffet is just nasty.

@Weavile: I get it. Weavile might seem bad because of those scrubs that are mucking it up on ladder or hyping it up on the forums. Up until recently I was determined not to raise Weavile BECAUSE of that vocal minority, but I wasn't acting rationally. If you look at it objectively, Weavile isn't actually that bad in OU; It's a good utility offensive Pokemon in BW OU with a clear cut, defined niche in BW OU. It checks a bunch of important threats(Landorus, Dragon-types, Celebi, Thundurus, Tornadus, Breloom) and can Pursuit trap some key targets (Lati@s and Celebi mainly). No other Pokemon in OU can do what Weavile does (the mamoswine VS weavile comparisons are laughable).

Like... Weavile is pretty good against the standard sand team. EX:
Tyranitar, Landorus-T, Celebi, Forretress, Heatran, Jellicent. Sure, it's hard countered by Forretress and Jellicent (don't be fooled into thinking you can trap Jellicent LOL) but it beats the other 4 members of that team, and can trap kill Celebi (a.k.a one of the most important Pokemon in the game!?!). I know this is just one example, but it doesn't matchup poorly against most teams, since there's a near guaranteed chance that it can trap something and its speed / priority can carry it. It gets shut down hard by a lot of relevant threats (again Jellicent actually counters you, and Jirachi + Scizor shut you down), and its really bad against rain/sun teams, but again you have a team of 5+ to help Weavile overcome these threats. It's other big flaw, is that its kind of hard to use (you really need to nail those Pursuit predictions)
Oh and did I mention its fast? (that last point is actually very important, Speed is sooo important).

TL;DR: I'd sooner use a Weavile over pretty much anything in C-tier in a tournament environment.

@Roserade: I definitely want to reconsider this decision in retrospect, but Sleep Powder is cheap and Toxic Spikes still "work" in OU. It's probably C+/B- tier.

@Feraligatr: Gatr time. That is all.

 

[Schpoonman]

So, 99% of the Jellicents I see are special walls, so I went ahead and calced how much Jolly LO Night Slash actually does.

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 359-424 (88.86 - 104.95%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO

Uh. I don't think Weavile is gonna have TOO much trouble with Jellicent, especially considering how goddamn often they stay in because they can tank a non-switch Pursuit from Tyranitar and burn you.

 

[PK Gaming]

So, 99% of the Jellicents I see are special walls, so I went ahead and calced how much Jolly LO Night Slash actually does.

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 359-424 (88.86 - 104.95%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO

Uh. I don't think Weavile is gonna have TOO much trouble with Jellicent, especially considering how goddamn often they stay in because they can tank a non-switch Pursuit from Tyranitar and burn you.

Oh the set i'm referring to doesn't actually use Night Slash, (Ice Shard / Pursuit / Low Kick / Ice Punch) though they're probably interchangeable.

 

[Hemp Man]

nd its really bad against rain/sun teams, but again you have a team of 5+ to help Weavile overcome these threats. It's other big flaw, is that its kind of hard to use (you really need to nail those Pursuit predictions)

You also forget that its weak to SR and has shit defense.

It's kinda like a Dark Version of Alakazam. Frail, but good speed means it can revenge kill a lot of things.

 

[Cherub Agent]

I don't really see much point in using Ice Punch on Weavile, as Night Slash also allows you to smack around Rotom-W and Politoed more, which are otherwise really can just come in for free on Weavile. And that Night Slash calc is damn accurate, as loads of Jellicents seems to focus on Special Defense nowadays. Weavile is a bloody good little Pokemon right now imo.

 

[kakuna]

I think that the lower tiers should be split up further. The definition of what is C tier has changed somewhat over time resulting is some oddities that really should not exist. Essentially it tells me right now that gastrodon is about as good as sandslash. Sandslash looked decent with sand rush when it was first released but when you actually try to use it you realize it can't take any hits, hit hard, or set up a swords dance on ANYTHING. And this viability ranking thread tells me that is better than donphan and ninjask, pokemon who can actually perform. The B- rank should be expanded a lot so that it includes decent pokemon like jolteon, conkeldurr, gastrodon, slowking, and azumarill. The C rank should be split into 3 tiers as well so you can separate the decent C tier threats from the total garbage. And more should be dropped to the D rank. Sandslash, Darmanitan, Nidoqueen, and Crustle are all candidates which there should be little doubt about.


Kyurem in A what the fuck. Kyurem is similar to deoxys-n in ubers- it is totally outclassed by an alternate forme, kyurem b in this case. Kyurem like to run defensive subroost, and sometimes choice specs/scarf. If you take a look at the stats of Kyurem-B vs. Kyurem, Kyurem-B has 40 higher attack and 10 higher defense. Kyurem has 5 higher special attack. Their movepools are identical except kyurem-b gets fusion bolt, whatever. Abilities- Kyurem-B wins by a land slide, he effectively has mold breaker. Now at low health he can just earth power rotom-w and bronzong. And no bullcrap specially defensive dragonite is beating him. The 5 points in SpA are more than made up for in the awesome ability. And then people switch in physical walls into kyurem-B (ex: forretress), so when using special only sets he has a huge surprise factor. So kyurem-b pulls off kyurem's sets better than kyurem himself. Not to mention how useful the 10 defense boost is, or the fact that he has the second highest attack in the game. Anyways despite kyurem being outclassed is his sets, those sets kind of suck. There is a reason kyurem doesn't make the top 90 even in weighted stats. If you ask me kyurem belongs in more of C tier tbh.

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

No. That's it. I'm done. I kept quiet last time people argued for this because I had already argued for dropping it and didn't feel like it was necessary since PK seemed to be on my side. Gastrodon is NOT GOOD IN THIS META. He's complete setup fodder for almost all setup sweepers except for Lucario and Thundurus-T. He certainly can't switch in on setup sweepers. Example: Dragonite has Multiscale up and uses DD. Gastro switches in, and eats an Outrage to the face only to do pitiful damage to Dragonite with Ice Beam. Not only that, but most banded Pokémon can at least 2HKO it anyway (some like Dragonite, Kyurem-B, and Haxorus can OHKO with prior damage).

Please name one pokemon that can switch in on a multiscale intact dragonite as it dragon dances and ko it with ANY move before it gets 2hkoed/ohkoed... scarfed Haxorus, scarfed Kyurem/B and defensive tyranitar with ice beam... yup thats the list. There are a few steels that resist outrage but can take damage from coverage.. only Skarmory/Bronzong can really survive most DD dragonite.

Meanwhile if Dragonite has multiscale broken by rocks and Gastro switches in, it can ohko it with ice beam and takes approx 3/4 of its HP from outrage, this is much more than what some pokemon such as Ferrothorn can do. Lets not forget its impossible for Dragonite to even set up on Gastro (intact multiscale) as it won't be able to ko after setting up.

Now you said he is "complete set up fodder for most sweepers". There are 2 sweepers that set up on him.. Breloom and the odd Celebi.. could you possibly name another? Gyarados' most common set comes close to setting up on Gastro but Gastro is immune to waterfall, cm Keldeo can be toxic'd and if it has substitute its a guessing game whether you sub or cm as he EP's or toxics.. CM latios is hardly viable in this meta but I concede it loses to it whilst CM latias can't be checked by Gastro if it has substitute but it also can't just set-up in front of Gastro's face without some good prediction.

Even swords dance Garchomp with Yache berry... can barely set up on Gastrodon.. It needs Gastrodon weakened to ohko with +2 outrage. Rock Gem Terrakion actually LOSES to gastrodon even if Gastro comes in on it - that is.. Gastrodon hard counters that set!

You just sound like someone that has never tried Gastrodon but always used a hard counter to it on your team so never really worried about it. Outside of Ferrothorn, Celebi, Breloom, Kyube and arguably Latios, nothing else really "forces" Gastrodon out.


edit: ^all of that said, we are seriously arguing about pokemon being able to set up on it? Lets just ignore for a moment how many pokemon Gastro hard walls or synergises with or how many teams lack a hard counter to Gastro or have a fragile/exploitable one (Breloom/Celebi/Latios)

edit 2: I particularly enjoy when some people resort to using things like band terrakion to punch a hole, get koed and then later gastro switches in free on a pokemon like rotom-w and heals up again