Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[False Sense]

Kyurem in A what the fuck. Kyurem is similar to deoxys-n in ubers- it is totally outclassed by an alternate forme, kyurem b in this case. Kyurem like to run defensive subroost, and sometimes choice specs/scarf. If you take a look at the stats of Kyurem-B vs. Kyurem, Kyurem-B has 40 higher attack and 10 higher defense. Kyurem has 5 higher special attack. Their movepools are identical except kyurem-b gets fusion bolt, whatever. Abilities- Kyurem-B wins by a land slide, he effectively has mold breaker. Now at low health he can just earth power rotom-w and bronzong. And no bullcrap specially defensive dragonite is beating him. The 5 points in SpA are more than made up for in the awesome ability. And then people switch in physical walls into kyurem-B (ex: forretress), so when using special only sets he has a huge surprise factor. So kyurem-b pulls off kyurem's sets better than kyurem himself. Not to mention how useful the 10 defense boost is, or the fact that he has the second highest attack in the game. Anyways despite kyurem being outclassed is his sets, those sets kind of suck. There is a reason kyurem doesn't make the top 90 even in weighted stats. If you ask me kyurem belongs in more of C tier tbh.

I have to admit, I feel kind of weird about having Kyurem in A-Rank. This is a BL pokemon we're talking about here, and one that has a second incarnation that almost completely outclasses it. I say almost, though, since I know Kyurem can run a very effective SubRoost set. Still, does that really grant it access to A-Rank? What really irks me is that Kyurem, a Dragon crippled by its secondary Ice typing with a very limited movepool, is now A-Rank, while stuff like Hydreigon, who has a much more diverse movepool and a much less crippling typing, is still B-Rank. (I apologize for bringing Hydreigon up again, but I feel that it's a good comparison for this situation.) Can someone enlighten me on why Kyurem is A-Rank while Hydreigon is B-Rank? I'm open to other opinions, but at the moment I feel like either Kyurem should move down to B+Rank with Hydreigon, or Hydreigon should move up to A-Rank.

 

[Mew2]

I think that the lower tiers should be split up further. The definition of what is C tier has changed somewhat over time resulting is some oddities that really should not exist. Essentially it tells me right now that gastrodon is about as good as sandslash. Sandslash looked decent with sand rush when it was first released but when you actually try to use it you realize it can't take any hits, hit hard, or set up a swords dance on ANYTHING. And this viability ranking thread tells me that is better than donphan and ninjask, pokemon who can actually perform. The B- rank should be expanded a lot so that it includes decent pokemon like jolteon, conkeldurr, gastrodon, slowking, and azumarill. The C rank should be split into 3 tiers as well so you can separate the decent C tier threats from the total garbage. And more should be dropped to the D rank. Sandslash, Darmanitan, Nidoqueen, and Crustle are all candidates which there should be little doubt about.


Kyurem in A what the fuck. Kyurem is similar to deoxys-n in ubers- it is totally outclassed by an alternate forme, kyurem b in this case. Kyurem like to run defensive subroost, and sometimes choice specs/scarf. If you take a look at the stats of Kyurem-B vs. Kyurem, Kyurem-B has 40 higher attack and 10 higher defense. Kyurem has 5 higher special attack. Their movepools are identical except kyurem-b gets fusion bolt, whatever. Abilities- Kyurem-B wins by a land slide, he effectively has mold breaker. Now at low health he can just earth power rotom-w and bronzong. And no bullcrap specially defensive dragonite is beating him. The 5 points in SpA are more than made up for in the awesome ability. And then people switch in physical walls into kyurem-B (ex: forretress), so when using special only sets he has a huge surprise factor. So kyurem-b pulls off kyurem's sets better than kyurem himself. Not to mention how useful the 10 defense boost is, or the fact that he has the second highest attack in the game. Anyways despite kyurem being outclassed is his sets, those sets kind of suck. There is a reason kyurem doesn't make the top 90 even in weighted stats. If you ask me kyurem belongs in more of C tier tbh.

I agree with you that people should analyze lower tier pokes like sandlsadh in OU, but kyurem-b DOESN'T outclass kyurem because kyurem has PRESSURE which makes him able to stall ferro's gyro balls among other stuff.

 

[Magcargo]

I am a bit confused on why feraligatr is mid B-Rank. It isn't a bad pokemon, but It is quite reliant on rain, torrent, swords dance and aqua jet. Despite its good bulk, the common spikes really hamper its ability to get down to torrent range. Not only does feraligatr face competition from azumarill, but gyarados too as a physical water type. Also, feraligatr has huge FMS, meaning that it will always be walled. I think that it should be low B-Rank.

 

[ElectivireRocks]

Kyurem-B doesn't entirely outclass Kyurem. In fact they're played quite differently.
Kyu-B is a wallbreaker that excels punching massive holes in the opponent's team right from the turn it's sent out, while Kyurem abuses its bulk and ability to stall and force switches, while keep offensive pressure thanks to its high Sp.Atk and powerful moves.

Kyurem's SubRoost set doesn't have to play defensively since it can run LO instead of lefties which lets it abuse its 130 base Sp.Atk and great coverage in 2 moves (Ice Beam+Earth Power or less commonly Dragon Pulse+Focus Blast). Lefties are generally more useful, though.

Keep in mind that many moves used to check Kyurem (Draco Meteor, Gyro Ball, Stone Edge, Close Combat, Superpower and Focus Blast) have 8 PP and are easily stalled with Substitute+Pressure.
This means that unlike Kyu-B, normal Kyurem will always win one-on-one against any Ferrothorn while Kyu-B has problems against Gyro Ball variants. Normal Kyurem is also not automatically forced out against Terrakion and many other threats who rely on 8 PP moves such as Gengar for the same reason.

Finally normal Kyurem is the best non-uber Blizzspammer in the game, outclassing Kyu-B from this point of view.

While I'm not entirely sure about Kyurem belonging in A-rank, I'm pretty sure that it is no lower than B-rank.

Been said that I'm not against moving Hydreigon to rank A. Like Kyu-B it's a powerful mixed attacker leaning on the special side instead of physical. Compared to Kyu-B it sacrifices power for a better movepool and an offensive ability for a defensive one. Finally dragon/dark and dragon/ice are both great offensive types but not so good defensively. I think they're more or less equal.

 

[Gary]

Kyurem in A what the fuck. Kyurem is similar to deoxys-n in ubers- it is totally outclassed by an alternate forme, kyurem b in this case. Kyurem like to run defensive subroost, and sometimes choice specs/scarf. If you take a look at the stats of Kyurem-B vs. Kyurem, Kyurem-B has 40 higher attack and 10 higher defense. Kyurem has 5 higher special attack. Their movepools are identical except kyurem-b gets fusion bolt, whatever. Abilities- Kyurem-B wins by a land slide, he effectively has mold breaker. Now at low health he can just earth power rotom-w and bronzong. And no bullcrap specially defensive dragonite is beating him. The 5 points in SpA are more than made up for in the awesome ability. And then people switch in physical walls into kyurem-B (ex: forretress), so when using special only sets he has a huge surprise factor. So kyurem-b pulls off kyurem's sets better than kyurem himself. Not to mention how useful the 10 defense boost is, or the fact that he has the second highest attack in the game. Anyways despite kyurem being outclassed is his sets, those sets kind of suck. There is a reason kyurem doesn't make the top 90 even in weighted stats. If you ask me kyurem belongs in more of C tier tbh.

You couldn't be more wrong. Kyurem has the ability to stall out moves such as Stone Edge and Gyro Ball that would normally fuck up Kyurem-B. They play completely differently, and by the way Kyurem-B has 120 SpA, while Kyurem has 130. It's a 10 point difference. I've used Pressure Sub Roost Kyurem, and it's a monster threat. Being able to stall out Gyro Ball on Ferrothorn or Forretress is huge, since most of the time that's their ONLY means of attacking. Same goes with Stone Edge on CB T-Tar, or even Hydro Pump on Specs Politoed. Its used to stall the hell out of everything so you open up giant holes in the opponents team. If Politoed is stalled out of Hydro Pump, then it has to rely on Ice Beam and Focus Blast for coverage. If T-Tar loses Stone Edge, it has to depend on Crunch for a powerful STAB. Kyurem can also run through teams on its own, and that extra 10 BP can make a difference in the long run. Sure Kyurem-B can run one hell of a Mixed set while also being able to hit Rotom-W with Earth Power, but Kyurem is a Pokemon of it's own, and if used in the hands of a good player, it can be downright terrifying to face. I think Kyurem deserves A-Rank at the least.

 

[Vemane]

I don't really see much point in using Ice Punch on Weavile, as Night Slash also allows you to smack around Rotom-W and Politoed more, which are otherwise really can just come in for free on Weavile. And that Night Slash calc is damn accurate, as loads of Jellicents seems to focus on Special Defense nowadays. Weavile is a bloody good little Pokemon right now imo.

Ice punch was easily the better option in the tornadus-t days. Now ice shard is quite sufficient in that department whereas night slash nails celebi and the like

 

[Sturdynips]

@Weavile: I think low B rank is right, its ability to revenge kill and trap a huge number of key threats makes it very viable in the current metagame.

Now this has been brought up earlier in the thread by lavos, but it seems to have slipped by. I agree with what lavos said about moving Jellicent up to A rank. Arguably the best spinblocker in the OU tier, with the ability to beat all spinners except sub-toxic Tentacruel. Water absorb sets wall Keldeo, a huge threat in this metagame. Taunt can be used to shut down the like of ferrothorn and forretress, and will-o-wisp or toxic can cripple incoming sweepers, particularly dragons, who try to set up.
Jellicent is easily A rank material.

 

[jle1076]

SO with all this weavile talk, do you HAVE to run Jolly over Adamant?

 

[victinivcreate1]

I would like to nominate Jelicent for A Rank

It HARD WALLS any Keldeo set, and the Sub CM set can't do anything to it, while Jellicent can Taunt it and render it unable to even set up to +6.

Note how a B+ Ranker can HARD WALL an S Rank sweeper. The only other pokemon that can HARD WALL an S Rank sweeper is Landorus-Therian vs. Terrakion. And Mr. L. Therian is in A rank.

Jellicent can also run a great special defensive set which beats Sheer Force Landorus (EP 3HKOs, Jelly can 2HKO back with Scald/Surf or has a 37.5% chance to OHKO with Ice Beam), a Choice Specs set with that surprise factor, or the standard Utility Counter set (which is my favorite Jellicent set).

Having reliable recovery is a must in the fast paced metagame of BW2, and this puts it apart from its water type bretheren like Suicune and Gyarados.

Jellicent can even stand to Thundurus-T's Thunderbolt, the strongest electric type special attack in the game. Against NP/Expert Belt/Scar variants, Special Defensive Jellicent do not face an OHKO, while it can deal decent damage with Ice Beam, weakening it enough to be in OHKO range of most priority moves bar Breloom's Mach Punch.

Jellicent's typing allows it to block Rapid Spin, crucial for certain sweepers like Thundurus-Therian, Volcarona and Salamence.

Jellicent also beats Starmie and Donphan, common spinners. Starmie's Thunderbolt fails to 2HKO Special Defensive Jelly, while it can 2HKO it back with Shadow Ball. Donphan offensive or defensive, fears the 2HKO from Scald/Surf and its main purpose, to spin, has been destroyed. While Donphan's Seed Bomb is stronger than Starmie's Tbolt, Utility Counter Jelly isn't even 2HKOed by that either.

And Donphan's Seed Bomb got 7.970% usage in the March OU Usage stats, so Special Defensive Jelly basically walls Donphan. Thats pretty good since every successful Sun Team has Ninetales, Venusaur, and Donphan.

 

[Sturdynips]

I support Sharpedo too, Dcae and ThunderBlunder summed it up very well. Sharpedo can be such a monster, particularly mid to late game. I think it definitely fits in low or mid B rank.

 

[Lavos]

You couldn't be more wrong. Kyurem has the ability to stall out moves such as Stone Edge and Gyro Ball that would normally fuck up Kyurem-B. They play completely differently, and by the way Kyurem-B has 120 SpA, while Kyurem has 130. It's a 10 point difference. I've used Pressure Sub Roost Kyurem, and it's a monster threat. Being able to stall out Gyro Ball on Ferrothorn or Forretress is huge, since most of the time that's their ONLY means of attacking. Same goes with Stone Edge on CB T-Tar, or even Hydro Pump on Specs Politoed. Its used to stall the hell out of everything so you open up giant holes in the opponents team. If Politoed is stalled out of Hydro Pump, then it has to rely on Ice Beam and Focus Blast for coverage. If T-Tar loses Stone Edge, it has to depend on Crunch for a powerful STAB. Kyurem can also run through teams on its own, and that extra 10 BP can make a difference in the long run. Sure Kyurem-B can run one hell of a Mixed set while also being able to hit Rotom-W with Earth Power, but Kyurem is a Pokemon of it's own, and if used in the hands of a good player, it can be downright terrifying to face. I think Kyurem deserves A-Rank at the least.

um looks to me like you just completely ignored what kakuna was saying. his argument was that kyurem-b is superior in every way imaginable (stats, movepool, etc.) to kyurem, except for the 10 point difference in base spatk. therefore, if kyurem-b is a-rank and superior, shouldn't kyurem's normal forme be b-rank or c-rank? kind of makes perfect logical sense. however you just go off on this tangent about how kyurem's sub roost set can apparently stall out pokemon that kyurem-b can't. let me call your attention to the respective base stats of these two pokemon:

kyurem 125 / 130 / 90 / 130 / 90 / 95
kyurem-b 125 / 170 / 100 / 120 / 90 / 95

specifically note how kyurem-b has 10 points higher defense than kyurem. therefore, for all the threats you mentioned that subroost kyurem supposedly stalls out, kyurem-b actually stalls them all out even better. get it?

you keep saying over and over how kyurem's so "terrifying to face" in the "hands of a good player" but 1) i haven't seen a good player use kyurem in a tournament environment in about 4 months, and 2) kyurem isn't terrifying at all, freaking kyurem-b is terrifying.

kyurem for b-rank

 

[steviestar]

Kyurem has pressure though, -B does not...

Regular Kyurem is a pretty bad mon though, I've never really seen it used successfully and I'd honestly consider it to be like C at best.

 

[Punchshroom]

um looks to me like you just completely ignored what kakuna was saying. his argument was that kyurem-b is superior in every way imaginable (stats, movepool, etc.) to kyurem, except for the 10 point difference in base spatk. therefore, if kyurem-b is a-rank and superior, shouldn't kyurem's normal forme be b-rank or c-rank? kind of makes perfect logical sense. however you just go off on this tangent about how kyurem's sub roost set can apparently stall out pokemon that kyurem-b can't. let me call your attention to the respective base stats of these two pokemon:

kyurem 125 / 130 / 90 / 130 / 90 / 95
kyurem-b 125 / 170 / 100 / 120 / 90 / 95

specifically note how kyurem-b has 10 points higher defense than kyurem. therefore, for all the threats you mentioned that subroost kyurem supposedly stalls out, kyurem-b actually stalls them all out even better. get it?

you keep saying over and over how kyurem's so "terrifying to face" in the "hands of a good player" but 1) i haven't seen a good player use kyurem in a tournament environment in about 4 months, and 2) kyurem isn't terrifying at all, freaking kyurem-b is terrifying.

kyurem for b-rank

The major selling point of using Kyurem over its Zekrom-infused counterpart is Pressure, which when combined with SubRoost can drain the PP of moves like Stone Edge, Gyro Ball, Hydro Pump, Focus Blast and Close Combat very rapidly.

 

[Lavos]

you mean moves that already have only 8 pp? i get the draw of pressure but usually it's going to be irrelevant anyways, and i'd much rather have a broken attack stat and higher all-around defenses plus an effective mold breaker than have pressure and 10 pts higher spatk. plus kyurem kinda sucks in this meta since it's just barely not bulky enough to take stuff like cb sciz bp, non lo terrak cc, etc that kyu-b can oftentimes survive, and its speed is too underwhelming to run an effective scarf set (that combined with the lack of raw wallbreaking power that kyu-b possesses).

 

[DarkBlazeR]

I agree that Kyurem isn't really A-rank material. Although usage doesn't always prove viability, in this case the sheer fact that Kyurem is almost never used in OU (neither on the ladder nor in tournaments) makes me raise an eyebrow to its placement in A-rank.

The reason for its disuse is quite simple - Kyurem-B is the superior Pokémon overall. The SubRoost set has been brought into the spotlight many times, and whilst I agree it doesn't make vanilla Kyurem totally obsolete, I hardly see how it compares well alongside the brute strength of Kyurem-B. To be honest, I'd use the mixed Sub + 3 attacks set that Kyurem-B can utilise over vanilla Kyurem's SubRoost set any day. The former can actually KO the things that have been mentioned in this thread, whereas the latter just tries to stall them out. In this fast-paced metagame, isn't it better just to be KOing things outright?

 

[ElectivireRocks]

We have already pointed out when and how normal Kyurem outperforms Kyu-B. Yes outright OHKOing things is usually better, but normal Kyurem is certainly no slouch in that department either. There are things not even Kyu-B can easily OHKO though, such as Ferrothorn.

Kyu-B beats Ferro only if:
-Kyu-B is running Focus Blast+Ice Beam on the LO set. You still have a 30% chance of losing
-Kyu-B has Sub and Ferro doesn't have Gyro Ball
-Kyu-B has HP Fire and it's not raining

Normal Kyurem on the other hand beats every Ferrothorn variant 100% of the time with its SubRoost set. That's a pretty big deal.

Also if you suspect the opponent is going to revenge kill Kyurem with something like a choiced Terrakion's Stone Edge/Close Comabt you can just spam Substitute until it runs out of PP instead of switching out and risk losing a pokemon. And we all know how incredibly hard is switching in against Terrakion.
The same thing can be said about a choiced Latios' Draco Meteor. Once it runs out of Draco Meteor PP Latios becomes much easier to wall which will give you a massive advantage later in the match. These perks might not be very useful for a hyper-offense team, but they certainly come handy to more defense-oriented ones.

I don't think usage is an argument as normal Kyurem is mutually exclusive with Kyu-B. Of course the pokemon with 700 BST and 170 Attack is going to be everyone's first choice, let's not kid ourselves.
There are teams that benefit more from normal Kyurem though as I mentioned above.
In the end I support it for B-rank but absolutely no lower than it.

 

[Vemane]

We have already pointed out when and how normal Kyurem outperforms Kyu-B. Yes outright OHKOing things is usually better, but normal Kyurem is certainly no slouch in that department either. There are things not even Kyu-B can easily OHKO though, such as Ferrothorn.

Kyu-B beats Ferro only if:
-Kyu-B is running Focus Blast+Ice Beam on the LO set. You still have a 30% chance of losing
-Kyu-B has Sub and Ferro doesn't have Gyro Ball
-Kyu-B has HP Fire and it's not raining

Normal Kyurem on the other hand beats every Ferrothorn variant 100% of the time with its SubRoost set. That's a pretty big deal.

Also if you suspect the opponent is going to revenge kill Kyurem with something like a choiced Terrakion's Stone Edge/Close Comabt you can just spam Substitute until it runs out of PP instead of switching out and risk losing a pokemon. And we all know how incredibly hard is switching in against Terrakion.
The same thing can be said about a choiced Latios' Draco Meteor. Once it runs out of Draco Meteor PP Latios becomes much easier to wall which will give you a massive advantage later in the match. These perks might not be very useful for a hyper-offense team, but they certainly come handy to more defense-oriented ones.

I don't think usage is an argument as normal Kyurem is mutually exclusive with Kyu-B. Of course the pokemon with 700 BST and 170 Attack is going to be everyone's first choice, let's not kid ourselves.
There are teams that benefit more from normal Kyurem though as I mentioned above.
In the end I support it for B-rank but absolutely no lower than it.

252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 156-184 (44.31 - 52.27%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

Or just have spdef ferro take a teensy bit of prior damage and then 2hko on the switch. (while of course this is an extreme-ish example, switch 68 evs into defense and replace hazards with any attack whatsoever and ferro is now dead)

 

[kakuna]

Ok, B rank is not ridiculous for kyurem. A rank is. Looking at B=, B, and B- B seems to be the drop off from consistent viability. Honestly I don't think half the stuff in that tier (haxorus, espeon, feraligatr, DITTO) belong that high but I will fight those later. For now calling kyurem lower than those would be dumb, but calling it ~ to Scizor is dumb as well.
And now for sandslash's placement.

When Sandslash was first released it looked like a lesser excadrill- but it proved to be much less than event that. To give you an idea of how weak Sandlslash is, he can never OHKO max HP tyranitar. Actually he can never OHKO max HP tyranitar after a layer of spikes. The KO isn't even guaranteed after three layers of spikes. Well that's okay. If you get lucky fire blast will do just under 50% and then Sandslash can sweep the rest of the team. Rotom-W? I have boosted stone edge. Except it never OHKOes after rocks. Because Rotom-W was already weakened and Stone edge hit, Rotom-W goes down. Next up is scizor completing the volt turn. Bullet punch does somewhere in between 50 and 60 percent and earthquake scrapes a KO. If you don't use life orb there is no guarantee of a KO. And then Landorus-T, Skarmory, Gliscor, and others all hard wall you. It is literally impossible to set up swords dance without wobbuffet support and once you do you aren't sweeping anybdy. And how do you think he fares against rain??

 

[Usatoday]

you mean moves that already have only 8 pp? i get the draw of pressure but usually it's going to be irrelevant anyways, and i'd much rather have a broken attack stat and higher all-around defenses plus an effective mold breaker than have pressure and 10 pts higher spatk. plus kyurem kinda sucks in this meta since it's just barely not bulky enough to take stuff like cb sciz bp, non lo terrak cc, etc that kyu-b can oftentimes survive, and its speed is too underwhelming to run an effective scarf set (that combined with the lack of raw wallbreaking power that kyu-b possesses).

I am going to blatantly going to have to disagree with you as kyurem is perhaps the best anti rain pokemon other than keldeo. Kyurem can laugh at politoed as it attempts to spam hydro pump/focus blast in the face of kyurem as they do pathetic damage to it. The other thing that must be noted is the ability to take on sun teams as well with a stab ice beam and coverage move in earth power it can take out almost all of the pokemon on the typical sun team of ninetales/xatu/donphan/venusaur/heatran/dragonite. Now you may argue that kyurem black can do this better with the arguably better attack stat however kyurem black focuses around it's coverage not it's bulk hence kyurem is often hard pressed to find room for roost upon it's movepool. Kyurem however does not often like to be mixed hence why it can solely rely on the near perfect coverage provided to it by earth power and ice beam. Now that is why kyurem is better with a sub set than kyurem black as it doesnt have to rely upon coverage moves and can hence move onto healing priorities in roost.

I agree that Kyurem isn't really A-rank material. Although usage doesn't always prove viability, in this case the sheer fact that Kyurem is almost never used in OU (neither on the ladder nor in tournaments) makes me raise an eyebrow to its placement in A-rank.

The reason for its disuse is quite simple - Kyurem-B is the superior Pokémon overall. The SubRoost set has been brought into the spotlight many times, and whilst I agree it doesn't make vanilla Kyurem totally obsolete, I hardly see how it compares well alongside the brute strength of Kyurem-B. To be honest, I'd use the mixed Sub + 3 attacks set that Kyurem-B can utilise over vanilla Kyurem's SubRoost set any day. The former can actually KO the things that have been mentioned in this thread, whereas the latter just tries to stall them out. In this fast-paced metagame, isn't it better just to be KOing things outright?

Not always as kyurem vanilla to quote you is used more on defensive teams than kyurem black is more offensively based I have found kyurem to be much better than kyurem black at the sub set because as previously mentioned it fits perfectly into balaced and semi stall oriented teams while kyurem black is more focused around offensive teams from what I've found.

 

[Usatoday]

How the hell is Kyurem anti Rain?

well considering the fact that 9/10 rain teams are running either defensive tentacruel or denfensive rotom wash both of which are easy sub bait for kyurem after which it wrecks havoc. Also consider that fact that it can out stall focus blast from thundurus therian or from tornadus as it can live a specs hurrican with minimal hp investment. The point is that if you can get kyurem behind a sub it is almost a free kill upon the opponents team.

 

[ElectivireRocks]

Politoed, Starmie, Ferrothorn, Celebi, Gyarados, Jolteon, Rotom-W... there are plenty of common rain mons Kyurem simply laughs at.
Keldeo and Scizor are more or less the only ones that beat it and even then neither of them can OHKO without SR so they're not 100% surefire counters.

 

[Punchshroom]

Actually, Kyurem-B's Sub set plays differently from Kyurem's SubRoost set

Kyurem-B sets up a Sub to avoid status, and has a safety net against revenge killing while it's wrecking shit, which is what it should be doing.

Kyurem capitalizes on Pressure and turns almost every slower threat such as Ferrothorn, Jellicent, Politoed, Forretress, Chansey and Blissey, slower Celebi and Tentacruel (almost all), Rotom-W, defensive Gyarados (albeit rare), Gliscor, defensive Landorus-T, Amoonguss, Roar-less Vaporeon and others into setup bait. Even more offensive threats like Starmie and Heatran (defensive ones are actually more troublesome) are fair game, and behind a Sub threats such as Gengar, Thundurus-T and Terrakion are forced to burn up 2 of their 8 PP to KO the Sub, and probably more if Kyurem can Sub again.

Even in this more offensive metagame, I still think Kyurem has a shot in A-Rank, as unlike Hydreigon and Haxorus, more cases of unfortunately slow Dragons, Kyurem can take advantage of its bulk much like Dragonite can (which is how the latter succeeded). PP stalling dangerous attacks can be more helpful than at first glance.

 

[alexwolf]

@Staraptor: Are you guys serious? There's no use in kidding ourselves, C-rank is very much a "I think this pokemon is decent, it should be C-rank" rank. You're really going to bust me for putting Staraptor in that tier when it's arguably on of the few Pokemon that I could actually justify using in an OU match? Goodness. I might do a thing where I make C-tier and B-tier even stricter (and actually drop more Pokemon into D-tier). We'll see.

Nobody is busting you for the placement of Staraptor PK, we just want to hear some reasoning for putting it in C Rank, where Pokemon with a clear-cut niche reside. For example, Aerodactyl is a good dedicated lead that can prevent every single Pokemon in OU from setting up hazards in front of him, while also being able to beat the most common spinner, Starmie. Azelf is the best DS user in OU and one of the best suicide leads as well. Azumarill is the strongest priority user and a good revenge killer for rain teams that have trouble with certain offensive Pokemon, being able to revenge kill them regardless of their Speed bbosts. I could go on and on but you get the point.

So what i am asking is what is Staraptor's niche, that justifies its placement in OU? Because whatever this is, i can't see it, and even though its a decent choice-item user and one of the most powerful Pokemon in OU, it is horribly outclassed and it has been established for a long time now that power does not equal to good performance.

As for Kyurem, i could see him being both low A Rank and high B Rank, but i think the latter is the best as the opportunity cost of using Kyurem over Kyurem-B is quite high. However, still many people here underastimate the power and overall use of SubRoost Kyurem, which is indeed one of the biggest enemies of rain teams and can easily dismantle them with the right support (T-Spikes and Rapid Spin for Kyurem). Pressure allows Kyurem to stall out so many dangerous offensive moves such as Draco Meteor, Focus Blast, Hydro Pump, Gyro Ball, Close Combat, and Stone Edge, as long as Kyurem is behind a Sub, making it very hard to deal with Kyurem once it gets a Sub up. It hits very hard as well and has almost perfect neutral coverage, and to people that complain about Kyurem's lackluster power with Lefties i want to remind that Life Orb is a perfectly viable option on the SubRoost set, allowing Kyurem to 2HKO SpD Jirachi with Earth Power and making the list of Pokemon that can deal with it once it gets a Sub even smaller.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Does anyone agree with me that Jellicent belongs in A rank?

 

[False Sense]

Does anyone agree with me that Jellicent belongs in A rank?

I do. Jellicent is a fantastic wall in this metagame, with amazing bulk, great typing, and a key immunity to Water. It also completely shuts down Keldeo, which is pretty nice. Without a very powerful super effective attack, it's very difficult to take Jellicent down, and can easily work around its lower defense with Scald and Will-o-wisp. This also protects it from being Pursuit trapped to a degree, which is a nice plus. Oh, it's also probably the best defensive Spin Blocker in OU, making it a staple on Stall teams. Overall, Jellicent is a great pokemon in this metagame that I think is quite capable of being in A-Rank.