Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[kakuna]

Lucario is the most capable swords dance user in the overused tier. I would use him over garchomp anytime for STAB fighting and extremespeed. I pretty much always use ice punch, the other options just don't seem very good to me. Lucario works well with trapper tyranitar to remove jellicent, latias, celebi, tentacruel, and others from play. He can also work on a rain or sun team quite well, lucario mauls heatran and ferrothorn, some of the biggest threats to those teams nonrespecitvely. Also nobody uses it now but sash lucario is still decent. Counter is really a great move to screw over physical attackers, I don't know why it sees so little use. Lucario probably would fit best in a sort of A- rank.

 

[Halcyon.]

That actually brings up a good question: why is B rank the only one that has +/-? Cause I think the other tiers could use it...

 

[victinivcreate1]

That actually brings up a good question: why is B rank the only one that has +/-? Cause I think the other tiers could use it...

Yeah,

A- could be like
Kyurem (Normal)
Volcarona
Lucario
Hippowdown
Mamoswine

A could be like
-Salamence
-Dnite
-Breloom
-Tentacruel
-Jellicent
-Thundurus Therian
-Rotom Wash

A+ Could be
Lando T (only because its able to counter an S-Rank sweeper with no hassle).
-Ferrothorn (beats rain lacking Keldeo, Thundy T has to use that shaky Focus Blast)
-Kyurem Black
-Latios

 

[Magcargo]

NOMINATING ROTOM-H FOR LOW B-RANK
Sorry for trying to move so many pokemon up to low B-rank, but rotom-h really deserves it. The current metagame is quite kind to it. Although rain and SR really hamper its effectiveness, rotom-h is a great check to heatran, jirachi, megnezone and many more dangerous threats. In the sun, its overheat's power reaches incredible power, OHKOing many pokemon. Unlike heatran, Rotom-h has a usable secondary STAB in overheat, meaning that bulky waters cannot switch-in as easily. While it does have its shortcomings, rotom-h's bulk, power and fantastic typing are enough to move him up to Low B-Rank.​

 

[Halcyon.]

Hitmontop to D-Rank.

To keep Hitmontop in the same rank with the likes of Cloyster is an insult. I have no idea where this came from. For starters, Hitmontop is a Donphan on the physical side. Pure fighting-type bring basically no useful resists, just a good offensive typing, but don't let that impress you. 95 Attack and useless HP stat give you nothing. 304 HP is the max you get out of it and Choice Band users like Garchomp and Terrakion still 2HKO you with max investment. TechniTop sucks as said a bunch of times in the past. Don't use it. It is completely outclassed by Breloom nowadays. Even Donphan is better. It has Ice Shard too and a strong STAB Earthquake. Technitop is forced out by Volcarona, Alakazam, Keldeo, and Politoed on the special side, all common and you know what? Let me just list: Outclassed, Bad Defenses, Oder Sleuth from Donphan = better, it outclasses it, forced out be every spinblocker (Chandelure detroys, Jellicent = Will-O-Wisp, Gengar is boss), and Donphan has much better moves and even Stealth Rock! TechniTop is a good combination, but there are better Mach Punch users, Pursuit, and Sucker Punch users too. Speaking of PursuitPunch, I actually think Skuntanks does that better and Fire Blast mimics Close Combat. People can agree or not, but this is my opinion.

I disagree. Hitmontop is a better spinner than Donphan, it's as simple as that. Donphan tries to do far too much at once, since people expect it to be able to revenge kill, be a physical wall, set up rocks, spin, and be a strong physical attacker with Earthquake. You can say Odor Sleuth on Donphan is better than Foresight, but that just isn't true, since Donphan has no room for it. It absolutely needs Earthquake, Rapid Spin, and Ice Shard, which leaves one slot, which most people fill with Stealth Rock. Using Odor Sleuth is useless on Donphan since Jellicent, Gengar, Frosslass, and Chandelure all beat it (Chandelure wins if Sturdy is broken, which it should be if you have to spin, unless you predict the switch and Earthquake). Gengar and Jellicent laugh at Donphan, and so does Frosslass, however rare it may be. At least Hitmontop can do serious damage to them once they've been hit by Foresight.

0 Atk Hitmontop Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 166-196 (63.6 - 75.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Whereas

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hitmontop: 156-185 (51.31 - 60.85%) -- 90.63% chance to 2HKO

So Hitmontop will always beat Gengar. As for Jellicent:

0 Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 159-187 (39.35 - 46.28%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hitmontop: 69-82 (22.69 - 26.97%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock

So Hitmontop wins unless it gets burned, which is about the same as a coin flip (49% to not be burned after two Scalds). Donphan, meanwhile, can't touch Gengar with anything but Ice Shard or (lol) Head Smash, and is 2HKO'd by Shadow Ball. Scald is a 2HKO on Donphan, whereas Earthquake in only a 3HKO (and Jellicent is faster).

Plus, Intimidate is, in my opinion, a more useful ability than Sturdy, given that Hitmontop already has good special bulk. Personally I think they should be in the same tier, but at the same time, I think your reasons why are flawed.

 

[BurningMan]

Jellicent can just WoW Hitmontop and unless you use fore sight Hitmontop can't damage Jelicent with CC because Ghost types are immune to Fighting type moves.
Gengar always uses Substitute or Protect Disable so you can't 2HKO it with Sucker Punch.
Hitmontops only niche is Foresight Rapidspin outside of that its just a horrible pokemon in OU Intimidate is cool but Hitmontops bulk sucks outside of that and it can't really damage anything that is not weak to fighting type moves not to mention that CC is a horrible move for a defensive pokemon and sucker punch is an equally horrible coverage move.

 

[Chou Toshio]

@Tornadus-T v. Jolteon comparison

This is totally fair in order to illustrate Jolteon's power. Someone was saying Thunder's power/acc. combined with Jolteon's SpA is insufficient-- clearly that is not the case.

That said, obviously there are a lot of things that draw a clear divide between Jolteon and Tornadus-T.

The first is no immunities to Flying. The same problem Volt Switch has v. U-turn shows up to bite it in the ass here too. When spamming STAB attacks from a choice poke, no enemies being immune is CRITICAL.

Especially in the case of Thunder/Hurricane, when you have a powerful 30% chance secondary effect that can make your attack very threatening even to enemies that resist. Latios/Latias REALLY don't want to switch in to Jolteon's Thunder, and if Ground-types and Volt Absorb/Lightning Rod/etc. foes had to deal with the same 30% chance of paralysis and halved damage-- they really wouldn't want to either.

Of course the other defining difference-- which was high lighted in my earlier post-- is switch-in opportunities. Fighting/Bug resists and a Ground immunity, coupled with 79 / 80 / 90 resistances and Regenerator giving it leeway to fuck up prediction a bit-- Torn-T's switch-in potential is completely incomparable with Jolteon's. The ability to switch in and out of battle frequently is CRITICAL for a choice locked pokemon.

Jolteon's failings in both of the above respects seriously detract from its usability.

That said, we're talking about Jolteon in B- not being banned to Ubers, so being inferior to Torn-T is not at all a case against putting it in B-.

 

[Takion]

Just want to state something about the Lucario Vs. Jirachi

Basing on the spread for March, most jirachis are specially defensive or others...(whatever that is)

| Spreads |
| Careful:252/0/0/0/224/32 15.968% |
| Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 6.965% |
| Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 4.149% |
| Jolly:4/252/0/0/0/252 3.971% |
| Careful:252/0/0/0/236/20 2.878% |
| Timid:252/0/0/4/0/252 2.818% |
| Other 63.251%

If were taking into account a S.Defensive Jirachi then

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 497-585 (123.01 - 144.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But ofcourse if the Jirachi is invested in speed then yes Lucario looses. But basing on march statistics, Ill take my chances by keeping it. Jellicent makes a great partner to Lucario. As it switch in on its counters and trap and weaken them.

 

[Magcargo]

​

NOMINATING ROTOM-H FOR LOW B-RANK​

Sorry for trying to move so many pokemon up to low B-rank, but rotom-h really deserves it. The current metagame is quite kind to it. Although rain and SR really hamper its effectiveness, rotom-h is a great check to heatran, jirachi, megnezone and many more dangerous threats. In the sun, its overheat's power reaches incredible power, OHKOing many pokemon. Unlike heatran, Rotom-h has a usable secondary STAB in overheat, meaning that bulky waters cannot switch-in as easily. While it does have its shortcomings, rotom-h's bulk, power and fantastic typing are enough to move him up to Low B-Rank.​

​

NOMINATING HERACROSS FOR LOW B-RANK​

Despite its low base 85 speed, heracross has many unique assets that can make him low b-rank. While the popular Choice Scarf set is C-Rank material, Choice band heracross is quite amazing and deserves low B-Rank. Because most people are going to expect heracross to be scarfed, the switch out their life orb terrakion and choice specs keldeo into a more reliable check (such as jellicent). Thanks to the power boost that the choice band provides, heracross has the power to 2HKO jellicent with night slash. Furthermore, thanks to megahorn, latias and slowbro cannot just swith in, and while heracross does have dissapointing speed, it is still enough to outpace magnezone, heatran and tyranitar, allowing heracross to OHKO them with CC. Heracross's power earns him a spot in low B-Rank.​

Gonna bring these 2 post back up for discussion.

Also, Lucario is fine where it it. Although it is a force to be rekoned with, it has serious 4MSS, meaning that no matter what coverage move you run, lucario will be walled. Furthermore, with smart prediction, tyranitar, a pokemon lucario can normally set up on, can attack the lucario user with superpower as it sets up a swords dance.

 

[jacaldwell]

I think Heracross is def. B rank material.

C Rank description - Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

The argument you presented comparing Heracross to Terrakion is the only valid argument for keeping him in C Rank in my opinion. However would you describe it as completely eclipsed? Heracross has better resistances/weaknesses, including being able to take a bullet punch (among other things). Also with sleep talk can absorb sleep for the team and is an awesome Breloom COUNTER which is not easy to do. And as we all know Guts is an awesome ability and makes Heracross truly scary to face. Even at just +1 he ohkos so many common OU pokes.

This describes him MUCH better.

B Rank description - Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

I don't think Heracross deserves to be promoted to a higher rank because in OU,it is outclassed in thr Scarfing and Band role by Terrakion, and the boosting sets as well. The one draw Heracross has over Terrakion is Guts, which I think is an excellent ability, but that makes it have the sole niche of CB Heracross with Guts, which probably deserves mid to high C rank, nothing higher.

 

[Meru]

I agree with the above post. Hitmontop brings so little to the table. It's C-rank in UU, what the hell makes you think it's C-rank in OU?

And personally, I think it's sad that silly bandwagoning has put Donphan in D-rank. You mean to tell me it's worse than Cobalion, Crobat, Scrafty, STARAPTOR? Get real. Donphan is a solid C-rank, and you guys need to stop being ridiculous and bashing it.

 

[Lavos]

i've gotta agree with windsong, meru and co...donphan is not d rank by any means, it's actually a really solid choice for sun teams and i know users such as marth have had niche success with it on rain teams as well. as meru stated in his post it's an absolute joke that donphan is ranked below trash like crobat and froslass. i would make an argument for donphan being b-rank because it's so good at checking terrakion, landorus-t, etc. and laying rocks right now but let's see it moved up to c rank first please.

don't hate on staraptor

edit: to the poster below, read the descriptions of what a c rank pokemon is and then read your argument again, you think you're arguing for d rank but the words you use strongly imply c rank to me

 

[Magcargo]

Donphan in all honesty is mediocre. Spinners like forretress bring way more to the table and unlike donphan, forretress has the ability to do so many things SUCCESSFULLY. Donphan is very weak, as its Ice shard doesn't OHKO landorus, salamence and garchomp. In general, mamoswine is a better user of ice shard because of its higher attack and it gets STAB on it. The only thing donphan has going for it is its ability to spin, and it can't get past sableye, jellicent and gengar. Donphan has no room for Odur sleuth since sun teams need A SR, ice shard user and rapid spinner molded into one package. In general, hippowdon, gliscor and landorus are much better ground types.

However, I do admit donphan not bad in sun teams.

Hitmontop should be with his mediocre buddy donphan though. It should go down to D-Rank.

 

[Homeslice]

I really want to point out the fact that Raikou isn't even ranked. Raikou is, without a doubt in my mind, the most versatile weather Pokemon there is. What I mean by that is that Raikou can function well in Rain and Sun, while also functioning semi-well in Hail. While it does have to cope with a Rash nature, Aura Sphere is a very good move to rely on unlike Thundurus-T's Focus Blast. Raikou also has access to Weather Ball, which makes him an absolute monster under weather. A Base 100 Water attack boosted by the Rain? Ground Pokemon think twice about coming in. Combine that with an 100% accurate Thunder and Water pokemon don't want to switch in on the Weather Ball. Grass Pokemon? Taken care of by HP Ice for the most part. Sun? Why not have a very slightly less powerful Fire Blast that's 100% accurate? The combination of Fire, Electric, and HP Ice helps sun out tremendously. Grounds are hurt, waters are hurt, ices are hurt, and flying types are hurt. Most Grass and Fire types become powerhouses after those types are gone. If that's not enough, he has some other moves that have general handiness such as Volt Switch and Calm Mind. Let me take this directly from the OU analysis for Raikou:

"However, Raikou does have some notable assets that give it an edge over its competition. Unlike its competitors, Raikou has good 90 / 100 special bulk to compliment its offenses and give it the ability to take a few hits when needed. The extra speed is also useful for checking prominent threats like Garchomp and Keldeo, which Thundurus-T is unable to do without a Choice Scarf, and the extra power gives it an advantage over Jolteon. Aura Sphere and Weather Ball are two great coverage moves that Thundurus-T and Jolteon would love to have. Raikou even has unique access to Calm Mind, allowing it to boost its special power and bulk simultaneously, which in turn makes it a more powerful and more durable sweeper. Utilize these niches and Raikou will never disappoint."
Raikou has a strong niche in the Metagame as a multi-weather sweeper and bulkier and faster electric type. While I would like for him to be considered low to mid B Rank, he should definitely be C rank at least.

 

[Tressed]

I really want to point out the fact that Raikou isn't even ranked. Raikou is, without a doubt in my mind, the most versatile weather Pokemon there is. What I mean by that is that Raikou can function well in Rain and Sun, while also functioning semi-well in Hail. While it does have to cope with a Rash nature, Aura Sphere is a very good move to rely on unlike Thundurus-T's Focus Blast. Raikou also has access to Weather Ball, which makes him an absolute monster under weather. A Base 100 Water attack boosted by the Rain? Ground Pokemon think twice about coming in. Combine that with an 100% accurate Thunder and Water pokemon don't want to switch in on the Weather Ball. Grass Pokemon? Taken care of by HP Ice for the most part. Sun? Why not have a very slightly less powerful Fire Blast that's 100% accurate? The combination of Fire, Electric, and HP Ice helps sun out tremendously. Grounds are hurt, waters are hurt, ices are hurt, and flying types are hurt. Most Grass and Fire types become powerhouses after those types are gone. If that's not enough, he has some other moves that have general handiness such as Volt Switch and Calm Mind. Let me take this directly from the OU analysis for Raikou:

"However, Raikou does have some notable assets that give it an edge over its competition. Unlike its competitors, Raikou has good 90 / 100 special bulk to compliment its offenses and give it the ability to take a few hits when needed. The extra speed is also useful for checking prominent threats like Garchomp and Keldeo, which Thundurus-T is unable to do without a Choice Scarf, and the extra power gives it an advantage over Jolteon. Aura Sphere and Weather Ball are two great coverage moves that Thundurus-T and Jolteon would love to have. Raikou even has unique access to Calm Mind, allowing it to boost its special power and bulk simultaneously, which in turn makes it a more powerful and more durable sweeper. Utilize these niches and Raikou will never disappoint."
Raikou has a strong niche in the Metagame as a multi-weather sweeper and bulkier and faster electric type. While I would like for him to be considered low to mid B Rank, he should definitely be C rank at least.

Agreed 100%. Raikou is one of those incredibly under looked Pokemon. I would actually rank it above Jolteon now that Torn-T is gone. Jolteon has access to an extra immunity and more speed, but Raikou has more bulk, a solid boosting move in Calm Mind, a little more power, and coverage options. Having access to stuff like Weather Ball makes it even better.

Sure, it overlaps a bit with Thundurus-T and Jolteon, but it has plenty of good reasons to be chosen. C-Rank is perfect for it.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

There are a couple things in this post that rubbed me the wrong way.

Donphan is very weak, as its Ice shard doesn't OHKO landorus, salamence and garchomp.

You do realize that Donphan has a very good base 120 Atk stat, right? Not to mention that makes it tied with Hitmonlee as the most powerful Rapid Spinner allowed in the standard metagame bar Armaldo. So no, it's not "very weak." Also, that second part is a bit deceptive. Even with no boosting item, Adamant Donphan is guaranteed to OHKO Salamence after SR. It needs for Landorus to take ~37.5% damage before Ice Shard is a guaranteed OHKO, which is little more than 2 switches into SR and one turn of LO recoil. Garchomp is harder to OHKO, but come on, you're dogging Donphan for not being able to OHKO a Pokemon as bulky as Garchomp with a 40 BP priority move? Besides, you can still guarantee a KO on Garchomp once it's lost a little less than half its health, so if you're opponent has switched it into any decently powerful attacks at all during the match, that could bring it within KO range.

So while Donphan may not be able to OHKO these three from full health, it's not that hard to actually pull off a KO in practice.

The only thing donphan has going for it is its ability to spin, and it can't get past sableye, jellicent and gengar.

Actually, like Windsong already explained, Jellicent only needs to take ~15% damage in order for offensive Donphan (again, without a boosting item) to guarantee the 2HKO with Earthquake after SR, and Donphan can be easily EV'd to outspeed the standard set. Specially defensive Jellicent is always 2HKO'd regardless. Gengar is usually OHKO'd by Head Smash or 2HKO'd by the combination of Stone Edge + Ice Shard after SR + Leftovers. Offensive Donphan will also usually 2HKO 252/120 Sableye with Earthquake after SR even if it burns Donphan after it switches in on the first EQ. You'd probably want to just switch out to avoid the burn, but if you absolutely must kill Sableye, it's certainly possible.

Donphan has no room for Odur sleuth since sun teams need An SR, ice shard user and rapid spinner molded into one package. In general, hippowdon, gliscor and landorus are much better ground types.

Yeah, all these comparisons with other random Pokemon are kinda getting ridiculous. People pick Donphan for their teams because they need a Rapid Spinner, not because they need an Ice Shard user or a Ground-type in general. If that were the case, people would use Mamoswine / Hippowdon / whatever instead, but don't tell me that I should use Gliscor or whatever because it's a better Ground-type when it doesn't give my team the same utility that Donphan does.

To be honest, Donphan does appear to fit the B-rank description. It does fill a decent offensive and defensive niche, primarily on Sun teams. It has a powerful STAB Earthquake, Ice Shard for picking off weakened Salamance / Landorus / etc., and even a powerful Head Smash for coverage (just to put it into perspective, Adamant Leftovers Donphan's Head Smash is about as powerful as Adamant Life Orb Groudon's Stone Edge). At the same time, it can utilize its great physical bulk to keep Pokemon like Terrakion in check, while also offering a few valuable support options to teams. Of course, Donphan is not a great OU Pokemon, and its niche tends to be fairly limited, but at the very least I believe Donphan should be moved to C-Rank.

 

[Magcargo]

There are a couple things in this post that rubbed me the wrong way.



You do realize that Donphan has a very good base 120 Atk stat, right? Not to mention that makes it tied with Hitmonlee as the most powerful Rapid Spinner allowed in the standard metagame bar Armaldo. So no, it's not "very weak." Also, that second part is a bit deceptive. Even with no boosting item, Adamant Donphan is guaranteed to OHKO Salamence after SR. It needs for Landorus to take ~37.5% damage before Ice Shard is a guaranteed OHKO, which is little more than 2 switches into SR and one turn of LO recoil. Garchomp is harder to OHKO, but come on, you're dogging Donphan for not being able to OHKO a Pokemon as bulky as Garchomp with a 40 BP priority move?

While Donphan may not be able to OHKO these three from full health, it's not that hard to actually pull off a KO in practice.



Actually, like Windsong already explained, Jellicent only needs to take ~15% damage in order for offensive Donphan (again, without a boosting item) to guarantee the 2HKO with Earthquake after SR, and Donphan can be easily EV'd to outspeed the standard set. Specially defensive Jellicent is always 2HKO'd regardless. Gengar is usually OHKO'd by Head Smash or 2HKO'd by the combination of Stone Edge + Ice Shard after SR + Leftovers. Offensive Donphan will also usually 2HKO 252/120 Sableye with Earthquake after SR even if it burns Donphan after it switches in on the first EQ. You'd probably want to just switch out to avoid the burn, but if you absolutely must kill Sableye, it's certainly possible.



Yeah, all these comparisons with other random Pokemon are kinda getting ridiculous. People pick Donphan for their teams because they need a Rapid Spinner, not because they need an Ice Shard user or a Ground-type in general. If that were the case, people would use Mamoswine / Hippowdon / whatever instead, but don't tell me that I should use Gliscor or whatever because it's a better Ground-type when it doesn't give my team the same utility that Donphan does.

To be honest, Donphan does appear to fit the B-rank description. It does fill a decent offensive and defensive niche, primarily on Sun teams. It has a powerful STAB Earthquake, Ice Shard for picking off weakened Salamance / Landorus / etc., and even a powerful Head Smash for coverage (just to put it into perspective, Adamant Leftovers Donphan's Head Smash is about as powerful as Adamant Life Orb Groudon's Stone Edge). At the same time, it can utilize its great physical bulk to keep Pokemon like Terrakion in check, while also offering a few valuable support options to teams. Of course, Donphan is not a great OU Pokemon, and its niche tends to be fairly limited, but at the very least I believe Donphan should be moved to C-Rank.

Offensive donphan is not good whatsoever. While it is true that it can beat jellicent , it loses a lot of defensive utility, meaning that it cannot switch into an attack unless it is a choice-locked resisted move. Donphan now gets LO 2HKO'd by terrakion's close combat and tyranitar's CB crunch, meaning that it cannot wall the things it is suppose to. Head smash is also a very poor option thanks to the massive recoil, meaning that donphan cannot come into the battle repetitively and spin. Garenteeing a 2HKO on jellicent really doesn't matter when you realize jellicent is FASTER and that it can scald/ice beam donphan for loads of damage. Gengar will obviously die if it switches into a head smash, but if it switch into donphan's other moves, it will heavily deant donphan with shadow ball. All of the spinblockers besides sableye WILL get donphan at a range where most powerful attacks will KO him. Donphan may be alright in sun teams, but thanks to the combination of low special defense and weaknesses to water and grass attacks, donphan isn't doing any favors against a rain team. Donphan should stay in D-Rank.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

My point wasn't specifically to endorse offensive Donphan but to show that if you are concerned about netting certain Ice Shard KOs or beating spin blockers, Donphan can easily be EV'd to do so. The set I'm referring to is merely the spread mentioned in the AC section of its on-site spinner set, but that aside, it still looks to me like we're dealing with a C-Rank material Pokemon. We have a Pokemon that, despite its many weaknesses, makes a decent physical tank, has a great Atk stat, can keep some Pokemon in check with Ice Shard, spins, and sets up Stealth Rock. You're correct in that the best set, the defensive spinner, struggles with spin blockers, but that just seems to fit the "crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy" part of the C-Rank description just perfectly. Donphan is capable of spinning, but its vulnerability to spin-blockers in general prevents it from doing that consistently. Meanwhile, it can still tank many physical hits, support its team with Stealth Rock, etc. Besides, this is just a nomination for C-Rank, not A or B. No one's saying that Donphan is a great Pokemon, but C-Ranking generally implies a low-OU Pokemon, which Donphan is. At least don't put it on a level below stuff like Crobat and Porygon2.

 

[Magcargo]

My point wasn't specifically to endorse offensive Donphan but to show that if you are concerned about netting certain Ice Shard KOs or beating spin blockers, Donphan can easily be EV'd to do so. The set I'm referring to is merely the spread mentioned in the AC section of its on-site spinner set, but that aside, it still looks to me like we're dealing with a C-Rank material Pokemon. We have a Pokemon that, despite its many weaknesses, makes a decent physical tank, has a great Atk stat, can keep some Pokemon in check with Ice Shard, spins, and sets up Stealth Rock. You're correct in that the best set, the defensive spinner, struggles with spin blockers, but that just seems to fit the "crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy" part of the C-Rank description just perfectly. Donphan is capable of spinning, but its vulnerability to spin-blockers in general prevents it from doing that consistently. Meanwhile, it can still tank many physical hits, support its team with Stealth Rock, etc. Besides, this is just a nomination for C-Rank, not A or B. No one's saying that Donphan is a great Pokemon, but C-Ranking generally implies a low-OU Pokemon, which Donphan is. At least don't put it on a level below stuff like Crobat and Porygon2.

I shall concur with moving donphan up to C-Rank as long as its Bottom-mid C-rank since donphan can be effective with proper support, but lacks the diversity and reliability of other spinners.

And staraptor sucks. It has no defensive presence because of its fraility , poor typing and SR weakness, and it has an average base speed. Reckless brave bird is powerful, but staraptor will die in a few turns because of its recoil. In fact, all of its most common moves hurt staraptor's staying power, barring roost and quick attack. It screams D-Rank.

I'm also still standing on moving rotom-h and heracross to low b-rank.

 

[Schpoonman]

Defens--what, defensive presence? Do you use Terrakion for its "defensive presence"? Let's not heap a ton of bullshit to obfuscate what you're talking about.

Jolly Staraptor, when using any attack boosted by Reckless, has (in effect) 406 Attack. JOLLY Staraptor. That's MORE POWERFUL than positive-natured base 135s, like Salamence and Tyranitar. It 2HKOs Jirachi with some Spikes support. It's not made utterly useless with its Ability like Archeops, Slaking, and Regigigas are. The definition of a C-rank Pokemon is "effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks." Staraptor is actually extremely consistent, at least in my experience: Once he's in, he is GOING to cut something in half with his insanely powerful attacks. More often than not, he cuts several Pokemon in half. Even if he just takes out one Pokemon, he's still doing his job in softening up the opposing team for a more sweep-capable Pokemon to finish the job. But his reliance on recoil moves means that you have to be more careful with switching him in, as taking that Grass Knot can be the difference between letting Terrakion sweep freely or a loss. That is not bad, that's just more restrictive than an S-rank Pokemon.

 

[Magcargo]

My reasons are flawed? Dude, Hitmontop is horribly outclassed by Donphan. And first of all, Gengar isn't always going to attack. Have you heard of anything called Substitute? I don't think so. Gengar easily defeats Hitmontop after a Substitute. Jellicent being hit by CC? You'll be wasting a turn using Foresight. And also you should never foresight and sucker punch on the same set because Toxic is there to dispose these walls. Most of your reasons are flawed and the only one I agree with is Odor Sleuth being hard to fit in.




D-Rank is for like crappy Pokemon and Hitmontop fits here perfectly. Donphan is infinitely better because either way a rain-boosted can OHKO both and sturdy is so useful to spin and set up rocks before going down. Hitmontop suffers from this moveslots and is like little offensive presence. Halcyon don't say haha to head smash. It is excellent to destroy spinners and nab some KOs



If going to be b-tank though rare, I'd say b- due to it being outclassed by Forretress due to spikes but it niche to defeat common threats is nice

How is hitmontop outclassed by Donphan? Hitmontop has better special defense and intimidate. While it is true that hitmontop cannot beat the spinblocker, he WILL get a spin off thanks to forsight. Furthermore, if donphan is suppose to spin, how will sturdy prevent a OHKO when the hazards damage him? Head smash also exagerates the damage he takes from entry hazards and the foes attacks. Both are perfectly fine low C-Rankers.

I apoligize lord of the bays, but by defensive presense, I meant that it cannot tank a nuetral hit. However, thanks to your reasoning, Staraptor shouls stay in C-Rank.

 

[GCSChris]

Agreeing that Hitmontop should be C-rank, and it does not lose to Gengar.
Donphan should be D-rank for a myraid of reasons previously listed, and Staraptor should remain C-Rank

 

[Prinz]

As Hot N Cold said a couple pages ago, Cresselia deserves the low B-tier at least. She is one of the best mixed wall in the entire game, she walls Landorus-I, Terrakion and Keldeo (so, the most threatening mons nowadays) and she can also check Dragon-types such as Dragonite, Salamence and Garchomp. Cresselia has some problem with Tyranitar, it's true, but you can pair her with Dugtrio and you won't have problem against the dinosaur which can Pursuit Cresselia. Pair her with Ninetales and Dugtrio, as Hot N Cold already said, and you'll have one of the best mixed wall avalaible in OU, which never dies, a counter for the most threatening mons right now and a check for Dragon-types too (Sun teams, the kind of team which Cresselia is used more frequently, have usually problems against both Landorus-I and Dragon-types and she can handle both quite easily, so yeah she is a good choice for Sun teams and for Weatheless teams as well.). Cresselia can be definitely a low / middle Tier mon.

 

[DR4G0Nx]

Why is Kyurem and Kyurem-B A rank? He really isn't A rank material. I mean, common threats such as Haxorus, Salamence, Hydreigon, bypass it. His speed is also a problem, meaning that common threats such as Terrakion, Infernape, etc. could possibly KO with close combat. He's weak to entry hazards, and ice is a horrible typing for a dragon type. Yea sure he is good for sub-roosting, but other than that, he's pretty much outclassed.

If only he had Dragon Dance...

 

[Punchshroom]

Kyurem is arguably the best at SubRoosting among the dragons, as he has the ability Pressure to stall out moves easily. Its Ice typing can also be used to its advantage, namely not fearing a Bulky Water's Ice Beam. It can then shuffle with Dragon Tail or use its impressive 2-move coverage. It can setup on lots of defensive threats as stated before, and in terms of functionality seems like a blend of SubRoost Latias and Dragonite.

Kyurem-Black boasts zero safe switch-ins, shredding even Steels with whatever little he has. He can put Substitute and Tailwind to potent use as well, semi-eliminating his issue of being revenge killed and can certainly find time to use them what with his good bulk and domineering offensive presence (Kyutem-B in most cases cannot be considered setup fodder).