I honestly think Kyurem-B is S material. It's Choice Scarf set ruins any team lacking a steel or faster scarfer, even Breloom failing to revenge it at full health. It's Sub+3 attacks set is truly terrifying if it gets a free sub. In conjunction with its jaw dropping attack it gets a very high base 120 special attack to boot, allowing it to run HP Fire. Also, it's bulk is huge, allowing it to sponge neutral hits. It's only real letdown is its speed and weakness to entry hazards, but then Landorus is also outsped by some major threats. It also shares a Mach Punch and Bullet Punch weakness with Terrakion, an is neutral to Ice Shard (unbelievably important for a Dragon). I can't put into numbers the amount of times my Scarf Kyurem-B has taken out two or three pokemon in a game, and it can clean up like a boss. Overall, it has just as many flaws as the S rankers and is in my opinion the most immediately threatening pokemon in the game right now.
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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
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I also agree with moving Kyurem-b to S-Rank, but for a different reason. Its Substitue + HC set and substitute +3 attacks sets are the real kickers as CB and CS kyurem-b aren't that great. SUbstitute eases prediction and allow kyurem to beat threats like keldeo and infernape with Fusion bolt and earth power. Ice beam is very strong coming off of base 120 special attack and its outrage is super powerful, OHKOing most threats that don't resist it barring dedicated physical walls gliscor. Kyurem Sub+HC set is very simple and effective. Use ubstitute, set up HC and then use dragon tail. With entry hazards, kyurem-b can maul the foe. Kyurem-b is very effective and I could see it being low S-rank.
ElectivireRocks
Banned deucer.
I'm starting to believe Kyu-B is S-rank material as well.
Its movepool might be shallow, but it's still far more versatile than what it looks on paper, with each set having radically different checks and counters. It barely has 10 competitively viable moves and yet it somehow manages to have the most sets listed (six!) of any OU pokemon on its page.
If you send your Ferrothorn in expecting a Choice Scarf set and it ends up being the mixed LO attacker you'll be in a world of pain.
Anything that it's slower than it, namely virtually every support-oriented pokemon in the tier, is setup fodder for any set that runs Substitute and you'll definitely not want to face a Kyu-B behind one.
With very few exceptions the best physical walls in the tier (Skarmory, Hippowdown, Gliscor, Landorus-T and Vaporeon) are completely powerless to stop it because they're destroyed by Fusion Bolt or Ice Beam.
The Choice Band set is arguably its worst set, and yet if the opponent has no steel type left it will kill something with Outrage without needing to set up. Its very presence will force the opponent to play conservatively and keep their steel-type alive for the entire match and God help them if they don't have one.
Kyu-B also scares the hell out of every single rapid spin user with the exception of Forretress (and even then, if Kyu-B has HP Fire and it's not raining it could OHKO it through Sturdy thanks to Teravolt), so it makes a great addition to any team that relies on entry hazards, whether it's offense- or defense-oriented.
Finally its massive bulk makes it very hard to revenge kill. Priority moves will fail to OHKO at full health and it can take non-STAB SE attacks very easily.
The only reliable ways to kill it are Terrakion's Close Combat and scarfed dragons.
Its movepool might be shallow, but it's still far more versatile than what it looks on paper, with each set having radically different checks and counters. It barely has 10 competitively viable moves and yet it somehow manages to have the most sets listed (six!) of any OU pokemon on its page.
If you send your Ferrothorn in expecting a Choice Scarf set and it ends up being the mixed LO attacker you'll be in a world of pain.
Anything that it's slower than it, namely virtually every support-oriented pokemon in the tier, is setup fodder for any set that runs Substitute and you'll definitely not want to face a Kyu-B behind one.
With very few exceptions the best physical walls in the tier (Skarmory, Hippowdown, Gliscor, Landorus-T and Vaporeon) are completely powerless to stop it because they're destroyed by Fusion Bolt or Ice Beam.
The Choice Band set is arguably its worst set, and yet if the opponent has no steel type left it will kill something with Outrage without needing to set up. Its very presence will force the opponent to play conservatively and keep their steel-type alive for the entire match and God help them if they don't have one.
Kyu-B also scares the hell out of every single rapid spin user with the exception of Forretress (and even then, if Kyu-B has HP Fire and it's not raining it could OHKO it through Sturdy thanks to Teravolt), so it makes a great addition to any team that relies on entry hazards, whether it's offense- or defense-oriented.
Finally its massive bulk makes it very hard to revenge kill. Priority moves will fail to OHKO at full health and it can take non-STAB SE attacks very easily.
The only reliable ways to kill it are Terrakion's Close Combat and scarfed dragons.
I won't say Cresselia "never dies", but I think she should go to B Tier as well. She's pretty damn good in the sun; HP Fire in the sun will always destroy Scizor, and Physically defensive Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Forretress trying to use her as spike bait. Moonlight will keep her in good shape, and Reflect is an awesome support move for Volcarona and Venusaur. Ice Beam can slay Dragons and Landorus(T), and Psyshock allows her to take on fighting types. Then there's Thunder Wave to screw over sweepers. Really, her main problem is 4MSS, but I don't think that stops her from hitting B-Tier.
Cresselia is greatly stunted by Rain and Sand, and is one of the easiest switchins for Scizor and Tyranitar like ever. Can't talk too much now.
Although Cress is hampered by rain and sand, she still walls just about every Dragon and one of the scariest pokemon in the meta (which is currently sitting in S-tier), Sheer Force Landorus, in both of those weathers. Hp fire, as it has been said, fixes scizor, and a crippling weakness to Ttar's Pursuit doesn't stop Latios form doing well. Overall, it does very well at what it needs to do with the same flaws as any other pokemon. B-tier, I think
Donphan is now C-rank and Hitmontop has been added to D-rank.
I'm hesitant to move Cresselia, Jolteon, etc to B-rank because i'm afraid we'll fall back into the pattern of moving Pokemon we "like" or "use" into higher tiers. I'm absolutely fine with making each individual a little bit more stricter (in that case, I'm strongly considering dropping Roserade back into C-tier). Oh and subdivisions being added to the other tiers is a work in progress.
I'm hesitant to move Cresselia, Jolteon, etc to B-rank because i'm afraid we'll fall back into the pattern of moving Pokemon we "like" or "use" into higher tiers. I'm absolutely fine with making each individual a little bit more stricter (in that case, I'm strongly considering dropping Roserade back into C-tier). Oh and subdivisions being added to the other tiers is a work in progress.
Cresselia is hard to rank. It honestly has always been a weird pokemon. Titanic defenses, but shitty typing and generic movepool.
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
Cresselia can consistently setup dual screens or paralyze your oponnent pokemons without breaking a sweat, its also not outclassed by anything in ou. Therefore this description does not fit it.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
It CAN wall significant portions of the metagame.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 166-196 (37.38 - 44.14%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 183-216 (41.21 - 48.64%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 234-276 (52.7 - 62.16%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 168-198 (37.83 - 44.59%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Theres also other stuff like Thunder from Jolteon and Thundurus-T which it can handle but then comes one of its main problems. It has no reliable recovery. Moonlight pp is low and its useless under rain and sand which prevents Cresselia to wall stuff its supposed to. As long as the opponent can maintain those weathers Cresselia will be a deadweight. But again under sun Cresselia becomes quite a terryfing wall. Because of this i'd suggest Cresselia to be low B-Rank.
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
Cresselia can consistently setup dual screens or paralyze your oponnent pokemons without breaking a sweat, its also not outclassed by anything in ou. Therefore this description does not fit it.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
It CAN wall significant portions of the metagame.
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 166-196 (37.38 - 44.14%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 183-216 (41.21 - 48.64%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 234-276 (52.7 - 62.16%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 168-198 (37.83 - 44.59%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Theres also other stuff like Thunder from Jolteon and Thundurus-T which it can handle but then comes one of its main problems. It has no reliable recovery. Moonlight pp is low and its useless under rain and sand which prevents Cresselia to wall stuff its supposed to. As long as the opponent can maintain those weathers Cresselia will be a deadweight. But again under sun Cresselia becomes quite a terryfing wall. Because of this i'd suggest Cresselia to be low B-Rank.
Slowbro for low B rank. This guy can actually be incredibly helpful if you have problems with Terrakion, destroying it and many other physical attackers. He can burn them with Scald. Support Tyranitar's Pursuit does jack shit if Slowbro stays in, while Crunch doesn't 2HKO. And he's not outclassed by Jellicent because of Regenerator and a more versatile movepool which includes Thunder Wave and Fire Blast.
I can see his weaknesses, though. He's slow, Scizor/Rotom-W bait and gets screwed up by Toxic.
I can see his weaknesses, though. He's slow, Scizor/Rotom-W bait and gets screwed up by Toxic.
Tanking earth power is my only purpose...
C Rank
*Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
- Ninetales and Dugtrio support
- Eclipsed by Celebi and Latias at checking Landorus and with overall useful second typing
Flaws
- Weather and support reliant
- Unreliable recovery
- Fourth move slot syndrome
- Niche utility
Tanking earth power is my only purpose...
C Rank
*Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
- Ninetales and Dugtrio support
- Eclipsed by Celebi and Latias
Flaws
- Weather and support reliant
- Unreliable recovery
- Fourth move slot syndrome
- Niche utility
How does celebi and latias eclips it? Can they tank outrages and draco meteors from latios and kyurem b? Can they wall terrakion? And how is Cresselia fourth move slot syndrom and niche utility any worse than shit like weavile or amoonguss who are B-Rank?
Obviously at checking Landorus-I, which is it's only useful niche at the time. Keep up with the times please.
Cresselia walls Landorus special set completely where Celebi and Latias have to watch out for hidden power ice or u-turn (neither of which phaze cress in the slighest). Same goes for the physical set.
I'm not saying they wall it, just checks. Life orb Latias can Draco and Celebi can Hp Ice. Like I mentioned before this is reference to the special set that is dominant at the time. Also both pokemon are more useful then Cresselia's tailor purpose of countering only certain Pokemon with the proper support and moves, as to the other two are more flexible and have array of options to pick and choose.
Cresselia is a fantastic wall, but it's heavily reliant on sun. Without sun, it has no reliable recovery, and it loses it's only way of dealing with things like Ferrothorn and Scizor. Not only that but it's offensive presence anyway is really low, and it's kind of Taunt-bait. But I haven't used it enough to really say whether it's B rank or not.
You said they eclipsed Cresselia which they obviously dont. This is huge for cresselia as it can confortably switch in one of the most dangerous pokemon in the tier. Cresselia other useful perks which you ignored in my last post include walling terrakion and taking on dragon types. Its ability to reliably setup dual screens through the match and access to lunar dance are also important factors.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
yeah cress is cool at checking rp lando-i and stuff like terrak but its offensive presence is dismal at best and it gets destroyed by such common pokemon as tyranitar and scizor, plus unless it's under sun or weatherless conditions it lacks any form of reliable recovery, meaning it's really not that hard to wear down. and u-turn lando-i actually does scare cress, lando can simply predict the obvious switch and u-turn into something that really threatens it, such as the commonly paired cbtar. cress is also so miserably status weak; if it gets hit by toxic or even will-o-wisp, you can kiss your walling potential goodbye. honestly cresselia just isn't that good. its bad speed, subpar offensive stats, and mediocre movepool make it a pokemon that's great in certain niche situations, but overall is easy to take advantage of. c-rank for now please
Yea, I didn't state any of it's perks, only why it should stay in C rank. All the things you say are true and great, but are dismissed by it's flaws. Celebi and Latias in turn are just superior Psychic types, that happen to be able to check Landorus. You are obviously defending it's qualities that are simply not that great or that a Pokemon can accomplish in a higher rank, not through the same method, but accomplish it all the same and with less support and flaws.
Yes i acknowledge all of its flaws. However continuous comparison with 2 A-Rank mons doesnt mean much when i am stating it should be low B-Rank. Its qualities are unmatched by other psychics in this rank, neither of which possess cresselia combination of bulk and ability that allow it to wall a large part of the tier.
Ooh I would like to help with subdivisions. I wouldn't really no where to start for C rank and I don't know if they are necessary for D rank but here are some of my thoughts on the A tier subdivisions.
Alakazam is A- with little doubt. While he hits very hard in order to survive an attack of any caliber he has to sacrifice his power significantly. Having a random sash user is really great for stopping sweeps but with the popularity of jirachi, scizor, almost every team having a scarfer to compromise alakazam's speed, celebi and others being so powerful alakazam is not consistently one of the best performers in OU. Its bulk is pretty much nonexistent and its typing is bad as well...
Breloom belongs in A or maybe A-. While technician mach punch is really strong and bullet seed can take out a lot of threats, the popularity of pokemon that resist his STAB in OU is quite daunting. Spore might be the best move in the game so underestimating breloom is no the way to go. With BW2 being so offensive and breloom's speed being kind of crappy it is kind of hard to get him in to the field. Horrible bulk, speed, and pretty bad typing hurt breloom as an offensive pokemon but his awesome ability and spore give him a solid place in upper OU. He is good, but not that good.
Celebi probably belongs in A+ or maybe A. Celebi can handle every pokemon in the S tier to an extent, although random bug moves are a huge pain in the butt. In a rain filled metagame having a pokemon that can sponge water attacks and not be susceptible to scald burns or toxic is the key to success. Celebi also hard walls alakazam, rotom and can take hit from others like thundurus. NastyPass or MindPass Celebi is literally the scariest thing in OU right now, if a powerful special scarfer like keldeo gets a +2 at the right time it is game. Celebi can also stall things out with perish song, leech seed, and the all important recover. Celebi can singlehandedly wall many rain teams, or wall most of their common pokemon. If you want a water resist for your sand or weatherless team, celebi might be the best choice. If you want to handle keldeo, landorus, politoed, defensive politoed, and other threats at the same time celebi is hand down the best choice. Common weaknesses really suck but otherwise Celebi is a monster.
More later but if anybody suggests either kyurem for above A- I will murder you with a sharpened dildo.
Alakazam is A- with little doubt. While he hits very hard in order to survive an attack of any caliber he has to sacrifice his power significantly. Having a random sash user is really great for stopping sweeps but with the popularity of jirachi, scizor, almost every team having a scarfer to compromise alakazam's speed, celebi and others being so powerful alakazam is not consistently one of the best performers in OU. Its bulk is pretty much nonexistent and its typing is bad as well...
Breloom belongs in A or maybe A-. While technician mach punch is really strong and bullet seed can take out a lot of threats, the popularity of pokemon that resist his STAB in OU is quite daunting. Spore might be the best move in the game so underestimating breloom is no the way to go. With BW2 being so offensive and breloom's speed being kind of crappy it is kind of hard to get him in to the field. Horrible bulk, speed, and pretty bad typing hurt breloom as an offensive pokemon but his awesome ability and spore give him a solid place in upper OU. He is good, but not that good.
Celebi probably belongs in A+ or maybe A. Celebi can handle every pokemon in the S tier to an extent, although random bug moves are a huge pain in the butt. In a rain filled metagame having a pokemon that can sponge water attacks and not be susceptible to scald burns or toxic is the key to success. Celebi also hard walls alakazam, rotom and can take hit from others like thundurus. NastyPass or MindPass Celebi is literally the scariest thing in OU right now, if a powerful special scarfer like keldeo gets a +2 at the right time it is game. Celebi can also stall things out with perish song, leech seed, and the all important recover. Celebi can singlehandedly wall many rain teams, or wall most of their common pokemon. If you want a water resist for your sand or weatherless team, celebi might be the best choice. If you want to handle keldeo, landorus, politoed, defensive politoed, and other threats at the same time celebi is hand down the best choice. Common weaknesses really suck but otherwise Celebi is a monster.
More later but if anybody suggests either kyurem for above A- I will murder you with a sharpened dildo.
I disagree entirely. The moment he get those swords dance up something will die. The two best scarfers in the tier (Terrakion and Keldeo) cant handle mach punch and are unable to revenge kill. His typing is excellent, grass/fight is terrific offensively and defensively. Breloom is one of those pokemon that look shit on paper but are literal monsters in practice. He is that good.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
i'm cool with breloom being dropped to a-minus, it's true that he's a total monster if he gets a dance going but that's becoming increasingly hard to do in the current metagame, plus grass/fighting is resisted by so many common ou threats (dnite, lati@s, celebi, mence, volc, venu, xatu, etc.) and it's really not that hard to revenge kill, you don't need to use a scarfer to do it because breloom's pitifully slow. it's still a huge threat that every team has to prepare for, no doubt about that, but the problem is that nowadays it's almost overprepared for, and thus it doesn't wreak nearly as much havoc as it used to.
Continuing on.
Dragonite is hard to pick a certain tier for. In late BW he probably would find himself in S tier, but his viability has fallen significantly. It has become easy for steel types to wall him because rain is constantly up. Ice attacks are everywhere, and scarfers are everywhere (and scarfers with ice attacks). What really was the nail in the coffin for dragonite was the rise of landorus-t and timid scarf politoed. I haven't seen a successful dragonite sweep in months... Band is still very strong though so I think dragonite would fit in A.
Dragonite is hard to pick a certain tier for. In late BW he probably would find himself in S tier, but his viability has fallen significantly. It has become easy for steel types to wall him because rain is constantly up. Ice attacks are everywhere, and scarfers are everywhere (and scarfers with ice attacks). What really was the nail in the coffin for dragonite was the rise of landorus-t and timid scarf politoed. I haven't seen a successful dragonite sweep in months... Band is still very strong though so I think dragonite would fit in A.
Because it hits like a truck, has priority (don't underrate that) and has MultiScale, which makes it a bitch to kill, since if you break MS something is often dying. I remember in early BW I tore shit up with CB Nite, you could just lead with it and spam Outrage for a few easy kills, then switch out and wreck shit later.
I don't really like this. Firstly, there isn't much that potentially does Sub DD better than Nite, Gyarados is prolly the only one but lacks MS and Roost. Secondly, there isn't much that does DD "better" much either. Salamence and I guess can try and compete, but again, it lacks MS and priority, which often make Dragonite the preferred option.
People might be overrating MS, but you certainly underrate it
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