Suicide Cup (ABRA EVOLUTION LINE IS NOW BANNED!!!)

[ElectivireRocks]

Return and Frustration can be easily abused by altering the friendship value (set it to 0 for Return and 255 for Frustration).
You essentially get a virtually no damage move that can't be blocked by Taunt which can be learned by almost every pokemon.
Should they be banned as well?

 

[youngjake93]

This is pure theorymon, but to screw over magic bouncers that make your taunt screw yourself over, you could run entry hazards(which get bounced onto your side. Then you can switch things like Butterfree in twice to die)
To deal with accidental mispredicts, something could run defog which is like rapid spin for the opponent.

 

[Manitary]

Return and Frustration can be easily abused by altering the friendship value (set it to 0 for Return and 255 for Frustration).
You essentially get a virtually no damage move that can't be blocked by Taunt which can be learned by almost every pokemon.
Should they be banned as well?

They're actually banned (check the OP)

 

[Adrian Marin]

This is pure theorymon, but to screw over magic bouncers that make your taunt screw yourself over, you could run entry hazards(which get bounced onto your side. Then you can switch things like Butterfree in twice to die)
To deal with accidental mispredicts, something could run defog which is like rapid spin for the opponent.

I actually used a set like that, except I skill swapped magic bounce and switched to Aerodactyl then I just kept on switching to pokemon's that were 4x weak to SR such as Charizard, Buterfree, and Larvesta. While defog is sometimes useful, It isn't useful enough to be used as a standard move. This is because of the risk of using such a strategy. Click here to see the strategy in action! Remember that I made that team before Suicide Cup was in Joim's Lab so Shedninja and Heal pulse, etc, were allowed.

It might work though.. so props to you for thinking of such a strategy! And don't
forget to play the tier in Joim's Lab!

 

[vyomov]

Out of interest is curse allowed?

Also, Heal Pulse is a really good idea

 

[Adrian Marin]

Out of interest is curse allowed?

Curse is allowed, but it usually isn't that great a move in this tier because it also hurts the foe badly.

Also, Heal Pulse is a really good idea

Heal Pulse is banned. (Read the OP)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also this thread is open for moveset posting!! Just a reminder.

Try not to post big images or huge sentences.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Magic room is now BANNED.

 

[Present]

Let me start with a mon central in running dry skin spam.

Vulpix @ Toxic Orb
Ev: 252+ Spe, 0 everything else
IV: everything 0, except speed
Moves:
- Hypnosis
- Incinerate
- Substitute
- Imprison

Sadly Vulpix cannot run that much, but the moves can be useful. If you predict a switch, use Hypnosis to put the opponent to sleep. Using this Turn 1 will almost always fail. Incinerate is weak and only useful for the few times an opponent wants to trick you a berry to heal your status. Substitute to lose Hp and Imprison to prevent your opponent from using it.

Some other move options can include protect to take some more damage, although you actually want vulpix to faint a bit later in the battle to keep setting up sun. Disable and Pain Split are sometimes used too.

Because no movesets have been posted yet, speed is usually maxed out on everything, with defence lowered to take a slight margin more from opponents attacks. All other stats are reduced to the minimum.

I might post some sun abusers soon.


Just a list of much used pokemon:
- Vulpix
- Dry Skin mons
- Alakazam or other Magic Guard Skill Swap users
- Jinx with Trick and Dry Skin
- Politoed to counter Dry Skin
- Gengar or co with Curse

 

[Gerard]

Heal pulse should be unbanned, with everything running Taunt, Protect and Substitute I don't think it's really overpowered, as unlike Magic Room most of it's users are pretty slow

 

[Adrian Marin]

Heal pulse should be unbanned, with everything running Taunt, Protect and Substitute I don't think it's really overpowered, as unlike Magic Room most of it's users are pretty slow

You give an interesting argument there.. While heal pulse is stopped by taunt and substitute, there are strategies that can counter act taunt and substitute...

For example, Smeargle with a set of imprison substitute heal pulse and taunt would be too strong for this meta as it will be able to fully heal the foes team and kill itself quickly.

 

[Present]

I voted against banning Magic Room as it isn't broken in my opinion, because it also renders your own items useless. It can also be stopped with taunt. Besides, Magic Guard has the same effect, only permanently until switching out, while Magic Room lasts five turns. The fact that it does not really prevent any strategies leads me to believe it to not be broken.

 

[Joim]

If you run Status Orb and your rival runs black sludge or status orb on unswitched Pokemon, you can use Magic Room to die yourself while your rival can't die from items.

 

[Gerard]

You give an interesting argument there.. While heal pulse is stopped by taunt and substitute, there are strategies that can counter act taunt and substitute...

For example, Smeargle with a set of imprison substitute heal pulse and taunt would be too strong for this meta as it will be able to fully heal the foes team and kill itself quickly.

That Smeargle is countered by faster Taunts, Encore, Magic Bounce / Coat (if you predict the Taunt), etc... and it would eventually die (because otherwise how would you win?)

 

[Adrian Marin]

That Smeargle is countered by faster Taunts, Encore, Magic Bounce / Coat (if you predict the Taunt), etc... and it would eventually die (because otherwise how would you win?)

Just like you said, faster Taunts, Encore Magic Bounce/ Coat is the only way to
stop it and I mean the ONLY way which many teams won't even have.


Heal pulse will obviously greatly unbalance the metagame and make it less interesting.

 

[rolen120]

should hidden power be banned? with minimum IVs and any lame type you want its practically the same as return/frustration

 

[Aasgier]

Where do we end banning stuff if you ban HP? I mean, I run Twister on one of my Pokés and Water Gun on another, which are not much stronger as the standard Tier Shift Hidden Power (HP Flying, 35BP)

 

[Joim]

20 BP is not the same as 1 BP that deals 1hp damage.

 

[bobbyvaporeon]

One good Strgety in this is using Solar Power. I have a heat Rock Sunkern + Belly Drum Charizard that Basically goes down in 3 turns.

 

[Aasgier]

Isn't Belly Drum + Solar Power illegal on the Charizard evolutionary line?

 

[Joim]

Yes, it is illegal.

 

[bobbyvaporeon]

I didn't know that, as I was using it yesterday. I guess I'll change that.

 

[Joim]

That's what happens when you play it through custom game instead of legal-checking game in my server :P

 

[Level 51]

Hello there, just a few thoughts n_n

- You may want to compile a complete banlist somewhere? The Belly Drum + Solar Power illegality on the Charizard line isn't mentioned in the OP with all the other bans, as far as I can tell.

- In my opinion, Fling and Last Resort should be banned for reasons similar to Natural Gift and Return/Frustration, as they can both be exploited to give attacking moves of 0 BP.

 

[Adrian Marin]

Hello there, just a few thoughts n_n

- You may want to compile a complete banlist somewhere? The Belly Drum + Solar Power illegality on the Charizard line isn't mentioned in the OP with all the other bans, as far as I can tell.

I did mention "Only legal moves are allowed." in the additional rules.

- In my opinion, Fling and Last Resort should be banned for reasons similar to Natural Gift and Return/Frustration, as they can both be exploited to give attacking moves of 0 BP.

Fling and last resort both have pros and cons, unlike return and frustration.

The former sacrifices throwing an item, while there are possible strategies where you can heal a foe by flinging a Sitrus Berry, it usually is not an effective strategy. Meanwhile, the latter forces you to not make use of all your moves. However you do make an interesting point there, but I don't think it is game-breaking because of its conditional nature.

Thanks for the suggestions and I really appreciate everyone's feedback!

I also found that Alakazam might be too good for this tier, With this moveset it can almost guarantee a win against the last pokemon.

Alakazam @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: null HP / null Atk / null Def / null SAtk / null SDef
- Taunt
- Skill Swap
- Substitute
- Knock Off

Skill swapping magic bounce is very game-breaking as it shuts down all forms of indirect damage, it also has access to great moves like taunt substitute and knock off. Alakazam is possibly the most dangerous pokemon in suicide cup!

 

[Arcticblast]

I haven't tested this set much, but I came up with this and used it in a few battles:

Smeargle @ Leftovers
Trait: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ingrain
- Perish Song
- Magic Coat
- Dragon Tail

Basically you come in on something that's about to die, use Perish Song right before it dies, and either Magic Coat or Ingrain depending on what your opponent will carry (if they're slower it doesn't matter though). Congrats - you've Perish Trapped yourself! An option over the last two moves is Whirlwind / Knock Off with a Mental Herb as the item, which I have yet to test.

 

[Adrian Marin]

I really like that set, but I think mental herb is absolutely mandatory and is the superior item for Smeargle. This is because a pokemon with taunt can shut you down and stop you from using Perish Song.

Overall I find that set very threatening as it is very very hard to shut down.