Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[ShootingStarmie]

If you've used Lucario as much as I have, you should know that it is much MUCH better than you're giving it credit for, and that it has a very easy time setting up. Also, you are most definitely theorymoning since you aren't actually providing calcs for the damages you're mentioning. Bullet Punch from Scizor does hurt, but it isn't even kind of a way for you to count on beating Lucario, as Banded Bullet Punch does between 38-45% to Lucario, which leaves you with about half health after Rocks and Life Orb. But then what? If you were relying on Scizor to revenge Lucario, then your team can't handle the remaining turns Lucario has to beat you. Plus, lets say you think Lucario is going to SD so you switch into Scizor, but actually it just goes straight for the Close Combat. You just took 72.88 - 85.71%, and Lucario can now guaranteed kill you with a non-boosted Extremespeed (16.03 - 19.24%, which at minimum is 100% assuming Rocks 12%+72%+16%=100%).

Also, the way you talk about using Lucario is, in my opinion, wrong. Lucario shoudl be paired with something like Celebi or Espeon, which can BP as Tyranitar/Scizor Pursuits, thus giving him the +1 boost from Justified, and another from Swords Dance or simply attack the switchin with an insanely powerful Close Combat at +2 (or even at +0 assuming you didn't BP in Lucario). Honestly, everyone should be using the Bullet Punch+Extremespeed set, in my opinion. It demolishes offensive teams as seen in this battle I always show people when they doubt Lucario. That is how you're supposed to sweep with Lucario. I'm not even sure where I want Lucario, as I can see him easily being B+ or A-, but I just want to make sure people understand how amazing he is in practice.

I never said that Scizor is the only way in beating Lucario, nor did I say it was a counter (seriously, who switches Scizor into a Lucario?), I said that priority really hurts Lucario, and if you really want me to prove that will calcs, so be it. You say Lucario should be paired up with Espeon or Celebi so that they can Baton Pass into Lucario, but if they've figured out that Celebi has Baton Pass (which is often, since it's used early game for gaining momentum), then your opponent is never going to use Pursuit on Celebi. So you Baton Pass into Lucario and take SR damage (97%), you take a Crunch from Tyranitar (70%). Now you either OHKO the Tyranitar, or set up a Swords Dance. Regardless of what you do, Scizor is going to be able to come in and revenge you.

"252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Crunch vs 4HP/0Def Lucario (Neutral): 25% - 30% (73 - 87 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO."

"252Atk Choice Band Scizor (+Atk)Bullet Punch vs 4HP/0Def -1 Lucario (Neutral): 38% - 45% (108 - 128 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO."

But hey, I know this is very situational, and I know that not every team carries Scizor and Tyranitar (most do in this stale metagame, lol), but then where else does Lucario find a place to set up? I guess on -2 Lati@s? It's set up options are very limited in this metagame, and even if it does get to +2, Lucario often has it's sweep cut short by bulky Pokemon that outspeed him (I already listed loads in my original post, but for the sake of it...) Garchomp, Keldeo, Landorus-I, Scizor, Gengar, and Terrakion. And please don't give me that bullshit about Bullet Punch, just go read my original post.

Also Gary, please read my original post, I list multiple Pokemon that can stop a +2 Lucario sweep.

 

[HUARGH]

Vaporeon and Victini both in rank C is kind of strange to me, I feel both deserve B- or even just B. You really need quite some offensive power in order to bust through a rest/hydration Vaporeon in rain and this always isn't so easy due to most packing moves along the lines of wish, protect, toxic, ice beam and scald.

Victini is a powerhouse under the sun, a choice banded V-create killing nearly everything - it also threatens the majority of weather users with its other attacks. V-create is an OHKO on every Ninetales and Abomasnow and bolt strike is a 2HKO on Politoed. Brick break and V-create both deal a lot of damage to 252hp/0def Tyranitar and CB V-create without sun is a clean 2HKO against 252/252+ hippowdon who in turn can never switch into a v-create because Victini is still faster, even after the first V-create (252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 259-306 (61.66 - 72.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).

Victini does take 25% from stealth rock and enjoys having the sun up, which is why he should definitely not be too high - but its ability to threaten and outspeed enemy weather inducers as well as nearly OHKO'ing everything under the sun (excuse the pun) should really give him at least a B- and possible B rank - keep in mind that Ninetales arguably has the hardest time in keeping up weather, or at least compared to Politoed and T-tar/Hippow. Additionally, Victini resists psychic, ice and fire - 3 of Venusaur's weaknesses who is commonly seen on sun teams. Having physical fire type moves is also an advantage, as many physical walls have a weakness to fire (Skarmory, Forretress, Ferrothorn...). Victini also has a guaranteed OHKO on 252/0 Dragonite after stealth rock with V-create, and OHKOs 252/252+ Gliscor with it as well.

 

[Gary]

I never said that Scizor is the only way in beating Lucario, nor did I say it was a counter (seriously, who switches Scizor into a Lucario?), I said that priority really hurts Lucario, and if you really want me to prove that will calcs, so be it. You say Lucario should be paired up with Espeon or Celebi so that they can Baton Pass into Lucario, but if they've figured out that Celebi has Baton Pass (which is often, since it's used early game for gaining momentum), then your opponent is never going to use Pursuit on Celebi. So you Baton Pass into Lucario and take SR damage (97%), you take a Crunch from Tyranitar (70%). Now you either OHKO the Tyranitar, or set up a Swords Dance. Regardless of what you do, Scizor is going to be able to come in and revenge you.

"252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Crunch vs 4HP/0Def Lucario (Neutral): 25% - 30% (73 - 87 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO."

"252Atk Choice Band Scizor (+Atk)Bullet Punch vs 4HP/0Def -1 Lucario (Neutral): 38% - 45% (108 - 128 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO."

But hey, I know this is very situational, and I know that not every team carries Scizor and Tyranitar (most do in this stale metagame, lol), but then where else does Lucario find a place to set up? I guess on -2 Lati@s? It's set up options are very limited in this metagame, and even if it does get to +2, Lucario often has it's sweep cut short by bulky Pokemon that outspeed him (I already listed loads in my original post, but for the sake of it...) Garchomp, Keldeo, Landorus-I, Scizor, Gengar, and Terrakion. And please don't give me that bullshit about Bullet Punch, just go read my original post.

Also Gary, please read my original post, I list multiple Pokemon that can stop a +2 Lucario sweep.

Actually, Lucario finds it pretty easy to setup, as a lot of the metagame fears taking a Close Combat to the face. Ferrothorn, Celebi lacking Psychic, Forretress, Tyranitar, and Jirachi with proper prediction, are all easy setup fodder for Lucario.

Priority is also a problem for Lucario, as Techniloom and Scizor are so popular. Now I know what you're thinking, "Lucario resists Bullet Punch!". You're right, but after taking SR damage, a hit while setting up (say Banded Tyranitars Crunch), and taking a Defence drop after Close Combat (as well as LO recoil), Scizor can revenge it. Banded Dnite also takes a chunk with Espeed, and I haven't even listed lesser used priority users, like Feraligator and Az

I think you need to remove this argument entirely. Lucario is ALWAYS going to KO Breloom at +2 with E-Speed before Breloom can even think about getting off a Mach Punch. Your Scizor argument is also pretty flawed as well. You ALWAYS assume that Lucario is going to set up on a Banded T-Tar? That's a huge assumption. Also, why are you throwing around ES from banded Nite? It does less then half, and even after that damage Lucario still has enough health to withstand recoil from Life Orb five times.

I would have agreed with this statement in BW1. However, BW2 released so many new offensive threats that are bulky enough to live a +2 Espeed and OHKO in return. This list includes Garchomp, Keldeo, Landorus-I, Gengar, and Terrakion. While Terrakion and Gengar are OHKO'd by +2 Bullet Punch, it means it has to sacrifice Ice Punch or Crunch, leaving it walled by either Jellicent, Reuniclus, Mew, and bulky Psychic types in general, or Gliscor, Landorus-T, and bulky Ground types in general.

Different variants of Lucario have problems with different Pokemon, which is why you give Lucario a move that covers a type that your team has trouble with the most. Also, all of the Pokemon you mention can withstand an E-Speed can also take a +2 Mach Punch from Breloom. Does this make Breloom B- material? Of course not. And don't tell me Spore is the ONLY reason Breloom isn't in B- rank, because that's far from the truth. Unlike Lucario, Breloom's STAB combination is commonly resisted, while Lucario can get around things like Landorus, Gliscor and Dragonite with Ice Punch. It's also MUCH faster then Adamant Breloom, which keeps it from having to rely on spamming priority moves against pretty much EVERYTHING, like Adamant Mamoswine or Timid Heatran for example.

tl;dr You need to actually use Lucario instead of theorymon.

 

[Schpoonman]

Victini is still C because of weather, more specifically rain. OBVIOUSLY you can run your own weather to keep Victini hitting hard with V-create, but winning the weather war is easier said than done. I wouldn't have any doubt in my mind that Victini and maybe even Darmanitan would be OU and B- or A-rank without Drizzle (hell, they wouldn't even need Drought), but that's only theorymon and doesn't apply to the metagame.

I'm not entirely sure why Vaporeon's dropped in usage so much (probably because Jellicent is immune to Fighting-type attacks AND spinblocks) but I wouldn't be totally adverse to B-. She's still very difficult to OHKO without a boost and she passes absolutely massive Wishes.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Victini suits low B rank imo. While V-create is incredibly powerful (stronger than Kyurem-B's Outrage), rain is everywhere and T-tar gets a free switch-in, ready to pursuit poor Victini. Stealth Rock is also a huge pain for it. Victini, however, has the ability to destroy politoed and many abusers of rain with Bolt Strike, something not many fire-types can boast.

I think bisharp should be C rank. It may lack the bulk to take a hit, but it can really surprise if it does manage to set up a Swords Dance. +2 LO Sucker Punch coming off 125 physical attack is nothing to scoff at. The problem is how do you set up that SD, though.

 

[Punchshroom]

Bisharp could actually set up on the Steels that wall him thanks to Taunt though, which stops Skarmory's Whirlwind, Ferro's Leech Seed/Thunder Wave and Forretress's hazards.

The other problem is that Sucker Punch can easily be worked around, and Bisharp relies on it more thanks to its low speed. Oh and it's complete musketeer bait: Keldeo resists both STABs while Terrakion abuses Justified boosts should you try a last ditch Sucker Punch. Bisharp also doesn't take Dragon attacks too well despite its typing, which is likely the main reason people shy away from Lucario, as most people don't want to pack a second Steel on their team just because their first one doesn't do the job at all.

 

[GOthee]

Bisharp could actually set up on the Steels that wall him thanks to Taunt though, which stops Skarmory's Whirlwind, Ferro's Leech Seed/Thunder Wave and Forretress's hazards.

Isnt bisharp slower than Skarmory? . I would rather swords dance on the switch and then Superpower/Brick Break before he whirlwinds me so i can at least weak my counter.

 

[Punchshroom]

Skarmory can't afford to run much speed; Bisharp can. Bisharp learning Superpower? You wish, he'd be so much better than he is right now because Low Kick / Brick Break isn't doing quite enough to the likes of Scizor, Ferrothorn and Forretress even after a Swords Dance.

 

[Takion]

+2 Espeed does not KO Scizor. Are you being serious? Yes Close Combat at +2 OHKOs, but like I said Bullet is still doing a butt load, regardless of whether it resists it or not. Terrakion is even weaker to priority than Lucario is, so no, it isn't outclassed. Lucario also has much better coverage than Terrakion, as Lucario can get past bulky Ground type like Glicsor and Garchomp, unlike Terrakion, with Ice Punch.

Also, it doesn't matter if it only takes 3%, it's still taking damage, which is bad for such a frail Pokemon. Also, you haven't provided any argument as to why Lucario should be A rank, or do you agree with me about Lucario being a B rank Pokemon?



Please bare in mind that Lucario is often paired up with Pokemon often weak to Dark type attacks, but Lucario shouldn't be switching into Tyranitar anyway, mainly because banded Crunch still hurts (like 30%? don't quote that), and after 2 Crunches plus a defence drop, Scizor will be able to revenge it with Bullet Punch. This also isn't facotoring in your opponent predicting the Lucario sweep and KOing it with Super Power, and it also isn't factoring any previous damage on Lucario. Lucario should be switching in after Tyranitar has Pursuit trapped something, like Gengar or Latios, forcing the switch, and setting up a Swords Dance at 97% health.

And this has come from experience, not just thoerymoning. I based my first gen 5 team around SD Lucario, which peeked 2nd on the OU ladder on PS. I used it for over a year, and I know how good it is, but I also know Lucario most of the time has shortcomings.

I never stated he OHKOd Scizor with a +2 Extremespeed. I said he can OHKO Scizor and Breloom with a +2 Close combat and Extremespeed Respectively

Stealth Rocks has such a insignificance on Lucario, I just dont see how 3% is so valuable to him.

As to him being in A- Rank. Everyone has made arguments, Im Indifferent. I definitly know he shouldnt be below B+.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

I'm not going to make an argument as to if Lucario should be in A- or B+ (but it definitely shouldn't be higher than A- or lower than B+), but... Did someone seriously just bring up "well that 3% breaks Focus Sash?" Really? When was the last time any competent player used Focus Sash Lucario? Exactly, never.

"Scizor can revenge under certain circumstances" (or whatever, ShootinStarmie said something along these lines)

Very situational, and if you're actually relying on weakening Lucario to the point where Scizor's Bullet Punch can KO a -1 Lucario, then you should probably give your team another look because that's not the most reliable strategy.

"I list multiple Pokemon that can stop a +2 Lucario sweep."

List of Pokemon that can stop a +2 Breloom sweep:

-Dragonite
-Salamence
-Latios
-Latias
-Celebi
-Volcarona
-Starmie
-Basically anything faster that resists Mach Punch

omg, Breloom totes shouldn't be in A-rank!!!!!!!!11 /end sarcasm

These Pokemon can stop a +1 Dragonite sweep:

-Mamoswine
-Terrakion
-ScarfChomp
-ScarfMence
-Scarf Landorus
-Scarf Lati@s
-ScarfRachi
-Scarf Kyurem-B
-Focus Sash + HP Ice Alakazam
-Landorus-T
-Blah blah blah long list....

Dragonite should totally be demoted!!!!! (still sarcasm)

So, umm.... Tell me why you made that argument again? Everything is beaten by some number of Pokemon.

"Keldeo can be stopped by Jellicent, Tentacruel, Dragonite, Celebi, Amoonguss, Lati@s, Toxicroak, and so on depending on its moveset, why is it in S-rank?" <- You may as well say that right there. Of course there's going to be a good number of Pokemon that can stop another Pokemon's sweep in one way or another. There better be. What does matter, though, is how much team support is needed in order to pave the way for a sweep, and how effectively it can sweep. Saying something is bad because *insert list of Pokemon here* can stop its sweep is a comment that simply reeks of theorymon. Before saying what rank a Pokemon should/shouldn't be in.... Use it. Of course there is always going to be a certain degree of subjectivity in these rankings, but you people need to stop making arguments based on theorymon. So stop making arguments based off of theorymon before I turn off the internet. Ok just kidding guys, I'm not gonna turn off the internet. But seriously, theorymon arguments are never good arguments.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I'm not going to make an argument as to if Lucario should be in A- or B+ (but it definitely shouldn't be higher than A- or lower than B+), but... Did someone seriously just bring up "well that 3% breaks Focus Sash?" Really? When was the last time any competent player used Focus Sash Lucario? Exactly, never.

"Scizor can revenge under certain circumstances" (or whatever, ShootinStarmie said something along these lines)

Very situational, and if you're actually relying on weakening Lucario to the point where Scizor's Bullet Punch can KO a -1 Lucario, then you should probably give your team another look because that's not the most reliable strategy.

"I list multiple Pokemon that can stop a +2 Lucario sweep."

List of Pokemon that can stop a +2 Breloom sweep:

-Dragonite
-Salamence
-Latios
-Latias
-Celebi
-Volcarona
-Starmie
-Basically anything faster that resists Mach Punch

omg, Breloom totes shouldn't be in A-rank!!!!!!!!11 /end sarcasm

These Pokemon can stop a +1 Dragonite sweep:

-Mamoswine
-Terrakion
-ScarfChomp
-ScarfMence
-Scarf Landorus
-Scarf Lati@s
-ScarfRachi
-Scarf Kyurem-B
-Focus Sash + HP Ice Alakazam
-Landorus-T
-Blah blah blah long list....

Dragonite should totally be demoted!!!!! (still sarcasm)

So, umm.... Tell me why you made that argument again? Everything is beaten by some number of Pokemon.

"Keldeo can be stopped by Jellicent, Tentacruel, Dragonite, Celebi, Amoonguss, Lati@s, Toxicroak, and so on depending on its moveset, why is it in S-rank?" <- You may as well say that right there. Of course there's going to be a good number of Pokemon that can stop another Pokemon's sweep in one way or another. There better be. What does matter, though, is how much team support is needed in order to pave the way for a sweep, and how effectively it can sweep. Saying something is bad because *insert list of Pokemon here* can stop its sweep is a comment that simply reeks of theorymon. Before saying what rank a Pokemon should/shouldn't be in.... Use it. Of course there is always going to be a certain degree of subjectivity in these rankings, but you people need to stop making arguments based on theorymon. So stop making arguments based off of theorymon before I turn off the internet. Ok just kidding guys, I'm not gonna turn off the internet. But seriously, theorymon arguments are never good arguments.

You're comparing Breloom and Dragonite with Lucario as if they can only pull off a physical sweeping set? You're saying that it's fine that Dragonite is A rank because it has checks / counters? No, that isn't the reason. Both Dragonite and Breloom has much more going for then other than one sweeping set.

Let's start with Breloom. Breloom has one of the best moves in the game, Spore. Breloom can get you basically two kills in a game if it gets a free switch in. Breloom also doesn't have to stick to using Swords Dance, as it can run a full physical attacker set.

Dragonite can fill so many roles in a team, not just a Dragon Dance set. Parashuffler, Bulky DD, Rain sweeper, Rain Shuffler, the list goes on. Dragonite's move pool is incredible, and Dragonite can easily fit into a team with the amount of roles it can fit.

So no, don't compare Lucario to Dragonite and Breloom when Lucario's only legit set is SD (please don't start mentioning stupid stuff like Choice Specs Lucario).

Also, for everyone's information, I don't know why everyone thinks I'm theorymoning, but I've used Lucario for over a year in one of my previous OU teams. I know how good it is, and I know how BW2 has made it harder for Lucario to sweep, making him less viable.

 

[Gary]

Why does it matter how versatile a Pokemon is when it can pull of one set incredibly well? Sure, verastility means a lot, but Lucario is one of the best users of SD in the tier because of its access to two priority moves, great movepool, and the ability to mop the floor with even Skarmory at +2. Breloom can't do that, Dragonite can't do that either. Both are A-Rank for their owns reasons. D-Nite is very versatile and good at pretty much everything it does, while Breloom can use the broken Spore and boosted priority. Remember, we were initially arguing on how effective Lucario's SD set was in this metagame, not how versatile Lucario is compared to other A-Rank Pokemon. Also, maybe use Lucario some more? Seriously, I don't see how Lucario has it that much harder in BW2. He's still as good as ever on my teams. Maybe you're just not using him right.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Why does it matter how versatile a Pokemon is when it can pull of one set incredibly well? Sure, verastility means a lot, but Lucario is one of the best users of SD in the tier because of its access to two priority moves, great movepool, and the ability to mop the floor with even Skarmory at +2. Breloom can't do that, Dragonite can't do that either. Both are A-Rank for their owns reasons. D-Nite is very versatile and good at pretty much everything it does, while Breloom can use the broken Spore and boosted priority. Remember, we were initially arguing on how effective Lucario's SD set was in this metagame, not how versatile Lucario is compared to other A-Rank Pokemon. Also, maybe use Lucario some more? Seriously, I don't see how Lucario has it that much harder in BW2. He's still as good as ever on my teams. Maybe you're just not using him right.

Lucario is probably the best Espeed abuser there is (other than ExtremeArceus). +2 Lucario is amazing in OU, if it gets to +3, you're screwed. In Ubers, SD Lucario is pretty good late game (its just outclassed by Arceus).

Considering how easy it is to get to +3 (because everyone has TTar+Lando), Lucario just sweeps much more easily. Ive had several matches against teams with Ttar+Landorus. Ttar tried to Pursuit my Celebi and I BP'ed to Lucario. +1 Atk. Ttar switched out in fear of CC. I SD as he switched. +3 atk now. 6-0 him, and it was like turn 5 when I started sweeping like crazy.

 

[Kidogo]

SDluke is great if it gets a boost. Honestly, not even all that great imo (+2 terra is a lot scarier, for example), but still very threatening and a really good late-game cleaner. That's it. That is what luke is, and it's very good at that one job. On the other hand, it's frail, has limited coverage, still gets walled no matter what moveset it chooses, and basically has only one stab. How could you even compare this to something like dnite in terms of overall effectiveness? Sure, as I said, luke is a great endgame-cleaner. But dnite can be that with a CB set spamming espeeds much stronger than unboosted luke's, or a wallbreaker with a LO set, or a sweeper that is much harder to wall with a DD set, or a full special set, or a defensive DD set, or a shuffler set, or...that is why dnite is a higher rank than luke--sure, luke may have one pretty effective set, but dnite has a ton of them, which in practice makes it much more useful than luke the majority of the time.

Also just wanted to mention--when exactly are you setting luke up? yes, there is the very convenient situation of the opp who is foolish enough to pursuit a celebi, but not that many teams have ttar (look at the OU stats). So...does luke just not get used in all those other games? That's the problem--with the right circumstances, he can be devastating...but without them, he's meh. B+ imo.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

About the Lucario matter, I agree for it being A-, but no more than that. It is extremely strong after +2, and can 2HKO most physical walls with Close Combat, in addition, most fast Pokémon are not going to be taking Extremespeed anytime soon. On a metagame where the necessity to use Pursuit to trap and take out many threats to top Pokémon such as Keldeo and Sheer Force Landorus, Lucario gets many setup opportunities.

But it is extremely hard to get a setup opportunity on anything that isn't a Dark-type or Rock-type attack, as even resisted moves do a number on Lucario. Sadly, it cannot use Focus Sash, as without the power of Life Orb, it can't achieve the aforementioned 2HKOs and OHKOs. There are also many faster Pokémon that can take a boosted Extremespeed and OHKO back, such as NP Celebi and Garchomp. Also, it has four-moveslot syndrome. Without Ice Punch, it is walled by Gliscor, Dragonite, and Landorus-T, while without Crunch, it is walled by Ghost-types; without Bullet Punch, Lucario is prone to being revenge killed by Scarf Tyranitar, Scarf Terrakion and Gengar.

Lucario is just one of those Pokémon that should be used well to win games; but take out the aforementioned threats, and there is nothing stopping Lucario from sweeping your entire team; it can easily do that if you are not prepared.

 

[victinivcreate1]

SDluke is great if it gets a boost. Honestly, not even all that great imo (+2 terra is a lot scarier, for example), but still very threatening and a really good late-game cleaner. That's it. That is what luke is, and it's very good at that one job. On the other hand, it's frail, has limited coverage, still gets walled no matter what moveset it chooses, and basically has only one stab. How could you even compare this to something like dnite in terms of overall effectiveness? Sure, as I said, luke is a great endgame-cleaner. But dnite can be that with a CB set spamming espeeds much stronger than unboosted luke's, or a wallbreaker with a LO set, or a sweeper that is much harder to wall with a DD set, or a full special set, or a defensive DD set, or a shuffler set, or...that is why dnite is a higher rank than luke--sure, luke may have one pretty effective set, but dnite has a ton of them, which in practice makes it much more useful than luke the majority of the time.

Also just wanted to mention--when exactly are you setting luke up? yes, there is the very convenient situation of the opp who is foolish enough to pursuit a celebi, but not that many teams have ttar (look at the OU stats). So...does luke just not get used in all those other games? That's the problem--with the right circumstances, he can be devastating...but without them, he's meh. B+ imo.

Technically CB Dragonite IS boosted (as Choice Band makes Dnites Attack become 604). While CB luke can't compare to CB Nite, Dnite has an arguably worse typing. Most of the resists Dnite has, Lucario also has (bar the water and fire ones). But in exchange for neutrality to water and weak to fire and fighting, Lucario has Dragon, steel, and dark resists. Dragon and Steel IMO, are much more defining types in the metagame, with Latios and Scizor running amok. And Lucario can kill both of these with the appropriate move.

With everything running Mamoswine/Weavile/*insert Ice Shard user* to check dragons and Lando-I, Lucario's resists allow him to set up on nearly every single one (and just KOs Mamoswine with CC/Bullet Punch). All of them fear Bullet Punch/CC to the face.

Plus, Dragnite just isn't as good in the metagame anymore. In BW1, it was an excellent pokemon, IMO underrated, as it had so many sets. But in BW2, its slow, and common scarfers resist Espeed.Those common scarfers are scared of Bullet Punch (cough Terrakion) and Lucario just blows them apart.

Also bulkier threats have come along (cough Garchy, 88 HP Lando-I and Keldy) and can take banded Espeeds with relative ease and KO back with the appropriate moves.

Is Dragonite a great pokemon? YES

Is it a good user of Espeed? YES.

However is it a better use of Espeed than Lucario? No. Lucario can bypass scarf mons with other priority moves (Bullet Punch, and NP variants can run Vacuum Wave), Dragonite can't because its too slow, and its other notable priority, Aqua Jet, is weak without rain support. Plus, it Aqua Jet lacks STAB on Dnite.

Lucario can switch in many times, because it 4x resists Rocks (which are ubiquitous). Dnite is weak to it, so it can only switch in 4 times before its dead. While Lucario is weak to Spikes, that is far less common.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Technically CB Dragonite IS boosted (as Choice Band makes Dnites Attack become 604). While CB luke can't compare to CB Nite, Dnite has an arguably worse typing. Most of the resists Dnite has, Lucario also has (bar the water and fire ones). But in exchange for neutrality to water and weak to fire and fighting, Lucario has Dragon, steel, and dark resists. Dragon and Steel IMO, are much more defining types in the metagame, with Latios and Scizor running amok. And Lucario can kill both of these with the appropriate move.

With everything running Mamoswine/Weavile/*insert Ice Shard user* to check dragons and Lando-I, Lucario's resists allow him to set up on nearly every single one (and just KOs Mamoswine with CC/Bullet Punch). All of them fear Bullet Punch/CC to the face.

Plus, Dragnite just isn't as good in the metagame anymore. In BW1, it was an excellent pokemon, IMO underrated, as it had so many sets. But in BW2, its slow, and common scarfers resist Espeed.Those common scarfers are scared of Bullet Punch (cough Terrakion) and Lucario just blows them apart.

Also bulkier threats have come along (cough Garchy, 88 HP Lando-I and Keldy) and can take banded Espeeds with relative ease and KO back with the appropriate moves.

Is Dragonite a great pokemon? YES

Is it a good user of Espeed? YES.

However is it a better use of Espeed than Lucario? No. Lucario can bypass scarf mons with other priority moves (Bullet Punch, and NP variants can run Vacuum Wave), Dragonite can't because its too slow, and its other notable priority, Aqua Jet, is weak without rain support. Plus, it Aqua Jet lacks STAB on Dnite.

Lucario can switch in many times, because it 4x resists Rocks (which are ubiquitous). Dnite is weak to it, so it can only switch in 4 times before its dead. While Lucario is weak to Spikes, that is far less common.

We're not discussing Dragonite here, or whether or not Lucario is a better user of Extreme Speed. I'm not sure how that's really relevant to the discussion at hand. No one is questioning Dragonite's ranking, as most people generally agree it's an A rank Pokemon. Please can people stop comparing Lucario to Pokemon in the A rank tier to make their arguments, as they're pretty irrelevant. Lucario's ranking shouldn't be affected by how good Dragonite is, it should be effected by how effective Lucario is in the current metagame.

I'm agreeing with Kidogo, it's a B rank Pokemon.

 

[GOthee]

H is being comapared to dragnoite becasue its usefull to comrap a pokemon to a higher rank one to see hsi eefectiveness compared to the other. I think is valid comparing him with DD but focusing on the topic if Lucario should be A- rank or not. I agree with DFa taht he should be A- rank, he can counter demolish most pokemon after Sd boost and not every team packs a Lucario counter because they usually pack counter for other pokes like Dragonite..(higher tier pokemon)

 

[Wizarus]

Lets not pretend that if Luke goes to +2, it's going to 6-0 every time, that's not how it works. First Luke has to find time to get to +2, which is pretty hard considering it's frail to the point where even walls are taking a nice chunk out of it. But it has to do it at a time where all of it's counters and checks are gone or worn down, and finding that exact time to set-up is difficult, if it even presents itself at all. You can't use it for resistances because it's too frail; the only thing it semi-checks is SD Scizor. It's a situational pokemon, too situational for A-Tier.

 

[Lavos]

lucario really has to do a bit of scouting and make sure some common checks take a lot of hazards damage before it can pull a clean sweep on a team. for example, landorus-t will need to be scouted to see if it's running 240 or 280 speed (the two common spreads), if you're running ice punch and it has 240 you're good but if either of those factors aren't in place you will have to whittle it down to around 50% before a +1 lucario (factoring intimidate ofc) will be able to kill with espeed if 280, cc if 240. although honestly since terrakion and scarftar are so common you should be running bullet punch right now, which is why lando-t is such a good check. also, this isn't necessarily common knowledge, but the standard rp landorus spread isn't ohkod after rocks by +2 luke espeed:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario ExtremeSpeed vs. 68 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 242-285 (72.02 - 84.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

so you have to force landorus to take rocks damage twice before lucario can sweep, otherwise it will be stopped cold.

i guess what i'm getting at here is that yes, lucario is one of the most powerful and threatening sweepers in the bw ou tier, but it takes a lot to actually prepare it for a clean sweep (and then there's the matter of setting it up, which is also tough because it's so frail). i would definitely stick with b+ rank on this guy...wouldn't call it too "situational" for a-rank, rather, its checks are too ubiquitous.

 

[ciaranroy]

It's not situational at all. Lucario has less hard counters than Keldeo, who resides in S. Keldeo requires support to even have a chance of getting past its counters. It's counters are nowhere near as ubiquitous as Keldeo's, and even Lucario's counters, like Jellicent for example, need to watch out for Lucario's coverage moves. While it requires a bit of scouting to use Lucario, it requires even more scouting to beat Lucario. It's versatile movepool means it can be unpredictable and very hard to beat. It's much harder to revenge than other A- rank Pokemon, as Salamence is easily revenged by Scarf Terrakion and Mamoswine. Gengar is destroyed by strong priority or scarfers, and Dragonite is killed by any scarfed Dragon or Mamoswine again. Also, the stealth rock argument is a joke. What do you want, for it to be immune to it? It takes the lowest possible damage from it. Only Pokes with Magic Guard are immune to Stealth Rock. It doesn't exactly have a crippling flaw like Volcarona for example, and its bulk is actually better than Breloom's. I just want to know how exactly it doesn't fit the definition for A rank:

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently.

This fits it better than the definition for B rank:

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche.

It can sweep through the majority of the metagame. To say it can't is false.

 

[ElectivireRocks]

Extremespeed isn't enough to push Lucario into A rank range.
I'm not sure why you're talking like it's the end-all, be-all priority attack in OU when it's a non-STAB, 80 BP move that is easily resisted.

To illustrate how lacking Lucario's coverage is, let's say your opponent is running Ferrothorn+Gengar and your Lucario is already at +2.
What are you going to do in this scenario?
If you mispredict and your opponent has Gengar out as Lucario uses Close Combat, there's a 70% chance that Gengar OHKOs Lucario the next turn with Focus Blast.
If you mispredict and use Ice Punch/Crunch when Ferrothorn is out, you're taking LO+Iron Barbs damage.

And let's not even get started if the opponent has Terrakion, because Extremspeed won't even 2HKO and Crunch will give it a Justified boost, followed by Terrakion OHKOing Lucario the next turn and possibly the rest of your team afterwards.

Lucario has way too many checks that can either cut its sweep short (without even attacking) or outright KO it. At best, Lucario as a lategame sweeper is unreliable as long as said (very common) checks are around.
A reliable lategame sweeper shouldn't have a 50% chance to lose against several common pokemon.

You need dedicated team support to eliminate all its checks (re: Terrakion, steel types, ghost types) before Lucario can even think to setup, which is why it fits the definition of B rank.

 

[ciaranroy]

Why is Alakazam in A-? It's power and speed warrant it to be in A alone, not to mention it being practically a failsafe revenge killer. It can plug gaps in your team easily. Say your team is weak to SD Scizor. Just slap a Focus Sash and HP Fire on Alakazam, and you're safe. The same can be said for HP Ice and certain 4x weak Pokemon. It's ability is one of the best in the game too, being able to endlessly come in and out and absorb burns and Toxics is very valuable. It's a great Pokemon.

 

[Laga]

Let us discuss Jirachi, because I actually find it the best S rank candidate in the A+ rank at the moment, and I shall try describing some of it's strengths and weaknesses.

Discussable S-Rank: Jirachi.​

First, I would like to start by showing you guys the B/W smogon analysis overview of Jirachi as a pokemon and its overall strengths and weaknesses:

Heralded as perhaps the most annoying Pokemon ever to grace the game of Pokemon, Jirachi is a tough competitor in the OU metagame. Its versatility is its main strength; Jirachi can run a variety of sets, from Calm Mind to specially defensive to revenge killer and everything in-between. Jirachi's best sets are SubCM and specially defensive, as the former is a highly potent sweeper and the latter is a good wall with a ton of utility and useful resistances. With its devastating paraflinch strategy, Jirachi can tear apart even the most threatening of Pokemon and cause its opponents to forfeit in sheer rage. Not to mention, Jirachi fits in perfectly with rain teams, the best weather in OU. Unfortunately, it is vulnerable to common Ground-types in the metagame and is handicapped versus common sun threats. However, none of this is enough to knock Jirachi off its pedestal as one of the best Pokemon in the OU tier.

Yes, Jirachi is powerful and few things can successfully stop it completely. Not only does it not require much or any support from teammates, it can also provide support through Wish and Thunder Wave. It also has the move U-turn to preserve offensive momentum. I think all that can be said for Jirachi as a whole has been said, so lets move deeper into it's different sets it can use.

Here are a few notable sets that Jirachi uses well :]

Set #1: ParaFlinch / Specially Defensive​

Jirachi @ Leftovers
252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Calm Nature
~ Iron Head
~ Body Slam / Thunder / Thunder Wave
~ Wish
~ Protect / U-turn / Stealth Rock

Pros and Cons of ParaFlinch / Specially Defensive Jirachi

Jirachi is mostly known for it's capabilities as an annoying paraflincher that makes people quit the game. This method consists of running Thunder Wave / Body Slam to paralyze the opponent, and then spamming Iron Head. This combination has a ~70% chance to immobilize the opponent, effectively giving you completely free damage. In the first slashed move slot, we have the Body Slam / Thunder / Thunder Wave slot. Body Slam is good for paralyzing ground types and getting a little bit damage whilst paralyzing (60% chance). Under rain, Thunder is usually the best choice, as it provides good coverage whilst maintaining the 60 percent paralysis chance. Thunder Wave is good if you want to paralyze things 100% of the time. With a bit of luck, you are effectively wearing down your opponent whilst healing 6% each turn without being touched. Running a specially defensive spread will also help wall a lot of pokemon like Lati@s, Gengar and at least check every special attacker there is (maybe not Specs Keldeo in rain :|) through paralyzing them. This set does not only work as a Specially defensive wall, an annoying piece of shit, but also provides massive Wish support (202 HP Wishes). My personal favorite Rachi set :^D The cons of this set are of course that 1) EQ frickin hurts, 2) Other physical attacks hurt too and 3) Defensive Ground types wall the shit out of it.

Set #2: Sub+CM​

Jirachi @ Leftovers
252 HP / 100 Def / 156 Spe
Timid Nature
~ Substitute
~ Calm Mind
~ Thunder / Thunderbolt
~ Psyshock / Flash Cannon / Water Pulse

Pros and Cons of Sub+CM Jirachi

Sub+CM Jirachi is is used for sweeping rather than walling and supporting. This set works by far the best in rain, as it 1) allows Thunder to reach 100% accuracy 2) Removes the Fire weakness, therefore leaving it only weak to Ground and 3) Powers up the Water Pulse that you may or may not like to use. Substitute and Calm Mind work extremely well together, which is also why many other pokemon like to use it. If you Sub up on a status move or on a forced switch, you get to get up a free Calm Mind. This will allow you to take hits very well on both defensive stats, as this set runs some Defense EVs and Max HP. When you can set up a Substitute whilst the opponent fails to take out the bulky Substitute, it's basically good game. This all seems extremely handy, which it of course is, but there are a few Cons of this set. The thing is, this Jirachi doesn't naturally fit teams Synergy wise as SpD rachi. This is because it is a sweeper that doesn't really need support, neither does it support. Sure, it is very handy on balanced teams, but if you are going stall, use SpD rachi, and if you are using HyperOffense, use Superachi (next set).

Set #3: Superachi​

Jirachi @ Life Orb
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
~ Calm Mind
~ Psychic / Flash Cannon
~ Grass Knot / Thunderbolt
~ Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ground

Pros and Cons of Superachi

Smogon tells this tale 10 times better than i ever will so here you go:

This set, a mainstay from the fourth generation, is a full-out offensive Calm Mind sweeper. It only needs 1-2 boosts to sweep, which is a massive advantage over other Calm Mind sets, and has space for an extra coverage move. All that's needed is a few Pokemon out of the way and then Jirachi can sweep. Because of this, it can be run on practically any offensive team. This set has two variants: one with Psychic, Grass Knot, and Hidden Power Fire, and one with Flash Cannon, Thunderbolt, and Hidden Power Ground. The first one boasts the hard-hitting Psychic to hit Fighting-types, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and a number of other threats hard, as well as the ability to break Gastrodon with Grass Knot. Grass Knot hits most other Water-types as well, including Jellicent, Slowbro, Gastrodon, and Starmie, as well as Tyranitar. Hidden Power Fire hits, naturally, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory, and other Steel-types. The second variant boasts the great neutral coverage of Flash Cannon and the ability to OHKO Heatran. Thunderbolt retains coverage on Jellicent, Slowbro, Starmie, Skarmory, and Forretress. Picking which variant to use is determined on what support you're willing to provide.

Set #4: Choice Scarf​

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
~ Iron Head
~ Ice Punch
~ U-turn / Fire Punch
~ Trick / Healing Wish

Pros and Cons of Scarfed Jirachi

Did you guys know that I am a lazy person? Have another Smogon Analysis :]

This set is particularly good at revenge killing Dragon-types. Jirachi is much bulkier than the average Choice Scarf user and has numerous resistances, which allows it to switch into a number of attacks. This set's biggest flaw is its lack of power; base 100 Attack simply doesn't always cut it, so Jirachi is easily walled and set up on. Regardless of its lack of power, Jirachi is still an amazing Choice Scarf user. Iron Head's high flinch rate allows Jirachi to hax its way past numerous opponents, and it is very useful for picking off weakened foes. The first coverage move of choice is Ice Punch because it hits Celebi, Gliscor, Dragonite, and many others for super effective damage. The third slot is a choice between two options; U-turn allows Jirachi to scout to obtain better match-ups and Fire Punch hits Ferrothorn for good damage. The other choice on this set is which non-attacking move to use. Trick can cripple walls, most notably Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Chansey, Blissey, and bulky Water-types (such as Jellicent and Slowbro), and can mess up slower sweepers, such as offensive Trick Room Reuniclus. Crippling these Pokemon makes it easy for a teammate to set up. On the other hand, Healing Wish makes Jirachi an amazing supporter; once it has extended its usefulness, Jirachi can revitalize a crippled teammate, which gives this option tons of merit.

Jirachi has a good ability, a good typing, versatile and good stats all across the board, and it is simply a monster in the OU metagame. I don't know if it really is S-Rank worthy, but I do believe so myself. This said, I wrote this so you guys would start debating about Jirachi, as it is a decent discussion. I shall leave you with a final quote from the smogon OU Jirachi Analysis :^D btw, oh look my 50th post lol :^D

While it is impossible for any one Pokemon to counter every possible Jirachi, there a few that can handle most.

 

[Sam]

Extremespeed isn't enough to push Lucario into A rank range.
I'm not sure why you're talking like it's the end-all, be-all priority attack in OU when it's a non-STAB, 80 BP move that is easily resisted.

To illustrate how lacking Lucario's coverage is, let's say your opponent is running Ferrothorn+Gengar and your Lucario is already at +2.
What are you going to do in this scenario?
If you mispredict and your opponent has Gengar out as Lucario uses Close Combat, there's a 70% chance that Gengar OHKOs Lucario the next turn with Focus Blast.
If you mispredict and use Ice Punch/Crunch when Ferrothorn is out, you're taking LO+Iron Barbs damage.

And let's not even get started if the opponent has Terrakion, because Extremspeed won't even 2HKO and Crunch will give it a Justified boost, followed by Terrakion OHKOing Lucario the next turn and possibly the rest of your team afterwards.

Lucario has way too many checks that can either cut its sweep short (without even attacking) or outright KO it. At best, Lucario as a lategame sweeper is unreliable as long as said (very common) checks are around.
A reliable lategame sweeper shouldn't have a 50% chance to lose against several common pokemon.

You need dedicated team support to eliminate all its checks (re: Terrakion, steel types, ghost types) before Lucario can even think to setup, which is why it fits the definition of B rank.

Lucario wins if it runs Bullet Punch though. Lucario's moveset may be rather standard but it still has a way of dealing with most things. Since it's a late game sweeper, it's perfectly OK to expect teammates to help pick up what it can't cover. I'd probably say it's the best physical late game sweeper right now, which warrants A- because it can sometimes be difficult to set up and it's pretty reliant on teammates. However, it's the best at its job.