The RU Viability Ranking Thread

[speed ghilliesniper]

I'd agree with Golurk to Top B. I'v been using both the Stealth Rock setting tank and the Rock Polish Sweeper and they're both very cool. Being able to spinblock one of the most popular spinners (Sandslash, yea it sucks but it's everywhere on the ladder) is a really cool thing to do, and with the proper EV's you can even survive Kabutops' Waterfall and OHKO back with Earthquake from full health. The Rock Polish set is probably one of my favorite users of the move along side Aggron, being able to break down many offensive teams with just a single turn of set up which isn't that hard thanks to it's excelent typing and good natural bulk. Thanks to Iron Fist Shadow Punch isn't a completely useless STAB like it is with Dusknoir, while it also gives Drain Punch a boost giving Golurk a form of semi reliable recovery.

On the subject of Magmorter it reminds me a lot of a poor mans Moltres with it's beautiful offensive STAB, ability to dispatch of Slowking, and it's even better type coverage giving it the ability to decimate many stall teams not fully prepared for it. However it's typing, while being one of the best in terms of offensive STABs, leaves much to be desired defensively giving it a nasty Stealth Rock weakness (not as bad as Moltres though, and it shares good offensive synergy with the best offensive spinner in the tier). With paralysis support it destroys offensive teams but without it often times I felt out paced thanks to falling just short of that base 85 benchmark, and also prone to dying faster than I'd like thanks to it's low defense, lack of recovery, and with with Life Orb recoil potentially taking it's tole. But it's definitely a nuke that's going to do some severe damage if it gets in on anything slower, so with all that in mind I think that Top B is actually pretty solid for it with it's ability to decimate stall and bulky offense but requiring more support or packing less power than some other similar mons above it such as Emboar or Moltres.

 

[Molk]

k, updates time! thanks for your comments on the current D rank :).

Moved Golurk from mid B rank -----> top B rank

Added Scraggy to mid C rank

Added Gothorita to top D rank

Added Linoone to top D rank

Added Golem to mid D rank

Added Glalie to low D rank

Remember that if you disagree with any of the changes here, you can speak up and either get them reversed or the Pokemon moved to a different rank.

I'm not really sure that Scraggy deserves to be placed in say, low B rank like CherubAgent suggested after testing it out a little bit, but its certainly viable in this meta, and i think Scraggers would fit in nicely in either Mid or Top C rank. Its a really unique and effective offensive threat thats for sure, but like the C rank definition suggests, it does have some significant flaws that hold it back from being in a higher rank. Even though everything else about Scraggy from its abilities to its movepool is simply great, those base stats really do get in the way sometimes. While Scraggy is definitely a threat after a Dragon Dance, its naturally low Speed stat (even lower than Crawdaunt's, although it has a much easier time setting up to make up for it) ensures that its not terribly hard to revenge kill unless it grabs two boosts. Likewise, its base 75 Attack stat makes it somewhat reliant on Hi Jump Kick to take out bulkier opponents, which brings the inherent risk of either missing or getting blocked by Protect and makes it harder for Scraggy to break through bulkier Pokemon who resist the move, such as Amoonguss. Nonetheless, everything CherubAgent said about Scraggy is true, and i think thats more than enough to justify it a place on the list in C rank. Although if more people want me to move it any higher or lower i'd be happy to do so.

 

[Jaiho]

This may not be on topic of most of the recent discussion, but i think that sceptile should moved to mid S rank. He plays the most interesting mind game from team preview imo, and he has completely different counters for each set. Amoonguss is probably the best counter to the special set, but gets smashed by flying gem or +2 acrobatics, while ferroseed, the best counter to the physical set, hates focus blast, and physical sceptile can even set up on it. The best comparison to sceptile is landorus in OU, and both are nigh uncounterable. Perhaps the only thing stopping sceptile from being top S rank is that accelgor and faster scarfers win 1v1, but they cannot switch in, with accelgor fearing a super effective moves like acrobatics, hp rock or fire, and rock slide, while scarfers like manectric, rotom-c, emboar, and medicham all fear unburden boosts and specific moves.

Aerodactyl is only a shaky counter, because the life orb set can't OHKO, even if Adamant, but the choice band set can, but only when using stone edge, which is called stone miss for a reason.

Lastly, Sceptile has a few niche uses, such as subseeding (better that whimsicott), a suicide Focus Sash + endeavor set, a sunny day starter and abuser, and is the best quiverpass recipient imo.

Overall, i think Sceptile should be solidly in mid S rank, MAYBE top S rank.

 

[speed ghilliesniper]

This may not be on topic of most of the recent discussion, but i think that sceptile should moved to mid S rank. He plays the most interesting mind game from team preview imo, and he has completely different counters for each set. Amoonguss is probably the best counter to the special set, but gets smashed by flying gem or +2 acrobatics, while ferroseed, the best counter to the physical set, hates focus blast, and physical sceptile can even set up on it. The best comparison to sceptile is landorus in OU, and both are nigh uncounterable. Perhaps the only thing stopping sceptile from being top S rank is that accelgor and faster scarfers win 1v1, but they cannot switch in, with accelgor fearing a super effective moves like acrobatics, hp rock or fire, and rock slide, while scarfers like manectric, rotom-c, emboar, and medicham all fear unburden boosts and specific moves.

Aerodactyl is only a shaky counter, because the life orb set can't OHKO, even if Adamant, but the choice band set can, but only when using stone edge, which is called stone miss for a reason.

Lastly, Sceptile has a few niche uses, such as subseeding (better that whimsicott), a suicide Focus Sash + endeavor set, a sunny day starter and abuser, and is the best quiverpass recipient imo.

Overall, i think Sceptile should be solidly in mid S rank, MAYBE top S rank.

I think low s is fine tbh. Really the guessing game of what set it's running is the main reason why it's so dangerous as each set really has it's own set of counters.

The special set is pretty much countered by any grass type special wall such as Amoonguss or Roselia, as either can cripple it with status or dent it with a Sludge Bomb. It's also checked by many things in the tier that can tank a shot and return fire such as Druddigon.

The physical set it pretty well countered by many good physical walls such as Ferroseed, Uxie, and Steelix. It also can't afford to set up on any of them, as it risks getting crippled by paralysis by Ferroseed or Uxie, phazed by Steelix, or 2HKO'd by Gyro Ball from either of the Steels. Like the special set it also runs into problems with many tanks who can live and retaliate with a OHKO like Escavalier.

Both sets are checked quite nicely by most scarfers before an unburden boost, and after the unburden boost it still can't OHKO Emboar with Acrobatics when it lacks the Flying gem boost which means it's still kept in check.

I don't know where Aerodactyl specifically comes in but it does OHKO if Adamant: 252+ Atk Life Orb Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sceptile: 285-335 (101.42 - 119.21%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Oh those other sets the Sub Seed is the only really viable one and even it get's stopped hard by Grass types or by Sap Sippers like Bouffalant. A Sash Endeaver gets mauled by any priority or multi hit move from the likes of Cincinno and is generally out classed by a level one FEARgle who also sets up Trick Room and puts things to sleep, guaranteeing maximum disruption of the opposing teams strategy. A Sun setter/ abuser is completely out classed by Lilligant or Exeggutor who can actually use the sun with Chlorophyll. And Quiver passing to it is deadly although there are many things that love the boosts such as Moltres, so really any special attacker can utilize the boosts as well.

So basically it's S-rank because it's got 2 deadly sets that have wildly different counters, although I would argue whether both sets are uncountable like you said, and I'd even hesitate to say whether it's sets are better than some A rank threats like say Durant ( with its insane power) or Lilligant ( who possesses the best boosting move in the game), but it's the fact it can surprise a counter to one set with another is what makes it S, and the fact that either set isn't always the best at what it does is why it's Low S rank.

 

[Jaiho]

don't know where Aerodactyl specifically comes in but it does OHKO if Adamant: 252+ Atk Life Orb Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sceptile: 285-335 (101.42 - 119.21%) -- guaranteed OHKO

huh, i guess i typed something wrong into my damage calculator

The physical set it pretty well countered by many good physical walls such as Ferroseed, Uxie, and Steelix. It also can't afford to set up on any of them, as it risks getting crippled by paralysis by Ferroseed or Uxie, phazed by Steelix, or 2HKO'd by Gyro Ball from either of the Steels. Like the special set it also runs into problems with many tanks who can live and retaliate with a OHKO like Escavalier.

In my experience ferroseed chooses to run either double hazards or protect over t-wave, and has a pathetic attack, meaning that gyro balls dont hit very hard, and seed bomb is more common to hit spinners like kabutops and sandslash (lol). steelix hits a bit harder, but sceptile can set up an SD or two, and smash it with EQ, as most people think that sceptile wont stay in. And as you said before, sceptile is all about the guessing game. when ammoonguss or escavalier switch in, they may get hit with a SE acrobatics or hp fire respectively.

So basically it's S-rank because it's got 2 deadly sets that have wildly different counters, although I would argue whether both sets are uncountable like you said, and I'd even hesitate to say whether it's sets are better than some A rank threats like say Durant ( with its insane power) or Lilligant ( who possesses the best boosting move in the game), but it's the fact it can surprise a counter to one set with another is what makes it S, and the fact that either set isn't always the best at what it does is why it's Low S rank

One, i dont think it is fair to compare sceptile to lilligant or durant. they both act as wallbreakers and team sweepers, while sceptile is all about late game. I understand that sceptile does have a fair few counters, but the line between low and mid S rank is fuzzy, and i think the guessing game can put it in mid.

 

[Molk]

Not going to make an update to D rank or anything this time around because there wasn't any discussion on the top/mid/low of it, but i wanted to let you know i've added another Pokemon to Untested, Simipour!

Simipour @ Life Orb
Trait: Gluttony
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Grass

Although the elemental monkeys are widely known for being somewhat mediocre and/or gimmicky, Simipour has the potential to be a potent Special Attacker imo, and has a few traits that seperate it from the other Water-types in RU, most notably Nasty Plot. Nothing's going to enjoy taking a +2 Life Orb Hydro Pump from Simipour, and unlike say Omastar, Simipour has a great initial Speed stat to work with, meaning it can pose a significant threat to faster teams even without a boost. Simipour can also run a SubSalac set effectively (although it recieves some competition from Samurott in this regard), subbing down to Torrent range, activating both the Salac Berry and Torrent, and sweeping. A Choice Specs set is a possibility, as well. Here are some damage calculations so you guys can get a grasp of how powerful +2 Simipour is.

Hide

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 92+ SpD Cryogonal: 274-324 (79.88 - 94.46%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 324-382 (82.23 - 96.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 116+ SpD Slowking: 247-291 (62.84 - 74.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 116+ SpD Amoonguss: 424-499 (98.14 - 115.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Uxie: 333-394 (94.06 - 111.29%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 244+ SpD Gallade: 274-325 (80.82 - 95.87%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Hidden Power Grass vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 291-343 (72.56 - 85.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Not everything is good for Simipour, though. While it has the potential to do a huge amount of damage if it can nab a Nasty Plot boost, its frail defenses often make it hard for Simipour to set up in the first place unless the user can manage to force a switch. These same defenses also make Simipour somewhat vulnerable to being picked off by things such as Entei's ExtremeSpeed and Absol's Sucker Punch, making it somewhat harder to sweep outright.

Anyways, despite those negative points and competition from some other Water-types, i think Simipour might be worth a rank here due to its positive qualities, what do you think?

EDIT: Also, not totally sure on Sceptile yet, i'll see what some other people say over the next few days or so.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I could agree with moving Sceptile up, it's one of the best cleaners in RU, and it's not hard to see why. Sceptile has solid offensive stats, an insane Special STAB, a great offensive movepool, awesome speed (Scolipede and Cinccino can only wish to be as fast as Sceptile, and that's saying something). Between the physical and special sets, there are close to no counters for Sceptile. As said, Sceptile often forces a guessing game on whether it's running physical or special, which is what makes it even more deadly. Suppose you send in that Roselia hoping to hard counter what you think may be a special Sceptile, only to have her die to an Acrobatics. Or better yet, you send in Ferroseed or Steelix hoping to counter a physical set, but get murdered by Focus Blast. It is obscenely powerful in general, as a LO Leaf Storm or a +2 Leaf Blade is pretty brutal and can really leave a mark. As I said, Sceptile's offensive movepool is awesome, with Focus Blast, Hidden Power, and if you want to even Dragon Pulse if you plan on killing Druddigon, and EQ, Rock Slide, and Acrobatics on the physical. 120 Speed is insane, which means it's outspeeding a shit ton of things, complementing its sweeping potential. Sceptile also fits himself comfortably onto FWG cores, and on any offensive team in general, hence his popularity. I'd say he deserves Mid S, Top S is stretching it, but he fits into Mid S pretty well imo.

Then again, this is from my personal experience using Sceptile, so feel free to disagree.

I'll see what's suitable for the remaining D-Rankers:

Top:

Sandslash is a generally poor Pokemon, but he is capable of pulling a Rapid Spin off if the opponent doesn't have a Ghost-type and can also use SD+Night Slash to own most Ghosts, although he's still outclassed pretty badly by Kabutops and Cryogonal. He also could run a support set. He's not good, but he's viable in RU.

Mid:

Articuno is okay. It's an alright SubRoostToxic staller allowing it to be annoying at times, but it's typing is pretty bad defensively and it lacks power too. It is capable of going offensive, but it's almost completely inferior to Moltres in this regard so I guess Mid D is good.

Audino has great bulk as well as Regenerator, meaning it can function well as a supportive Pokemon. It has WishTect and Heal Bell (iirc) to support the team while having Regenerator. It is vastly inferior to Mola and Clefable, but its perks are enough to make it worth using on some teams. It also has Trick Room and Healing Wish, which although it is outclassed by Mesprit in this regard, it does it decently which makes it suitable for Mid D.

Ninjask has a well-known trick; Baton Passing Speed boosts and Swords Dances. This makes Ninjask an incredibly lethal Pokemon in the right hands, as it can pass speed and attack boosts and a Substitute to a physical attacker such as Aggron or Scolipede, and the opponent will be in for a world of pain. Ninjask is useless otherwise though, and can often be a crutch to most teams that don't need the boosts.

Low:

Dusknoir is hardly worth being called viable in RU. It is almost completely useless in the tier, as it has no recovery, making it ridiculously easy to wear down. Dusknoir is also extremely weak; its damage output is horrible due to the poor base Power of its moves. This means Dusknoir is setup fodder to the max. Dusknoir is setup bait for SubCM Mesprit and Uxie, as well as QD Lilli, SubSalac Scolipede, SD Absol, and a bunch of others. Almost anything can set up on Dusknoir. Dusknoir is also completely and utterly outclassed by a bunch of Ghost-types, making it hard to justify its use. I almost want to call Dusknoir E-Rank because of how bad it is, but others disagreed with me, so I will submit to their judgement. Either way, this is a Low D at best; it really is bad.

Natu in general isn't a good Pokemon, but it has a niche. It can Magic Bounce hazards while setting up Screens and u-turning, plus it can be beneficial for Mono Flying or whole teams weak to SR. It also fits itself on VoltTurn. Not good, but it has a small niche.

Sawk should probably be Mid C-Rank. It packs a great amount of power behind its Close Combat, and can use Mold Breaker EQ to nail Rotom-N. It has solid coverage meaning it can run the punches to nail Amoonguss and Slowking, while it can be a great cleaner with Scarf or a mighty wallbreaker with CB. It faces really stiff competition from other Fighting-types though, but it has a place as a solid offensive threat, so Mid C is reasonable. (Imo Sawk is better than Primeape).

Serperior looks interesting imo, I'll give it a test run for a few days and I might come back to nominate it.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

Looking at Untested, I have used one of them quite a bit recently, and that one was Weezing. I gave it a go and I'd say it is fit for Mid-C, maaaaybe Top-C though that is pushing it.

On one hand, it has a great physical bulk and Will-O-Wisp, meaning that it can wall for quite a while. Its immunity to Earthquake and resistance to Fighting makes it one of the best Fighting-type checks around. A set of Will-O-Wisp/Pain Split/Sludge Bomb/Fire Blast or Clear Smog makes for quite a good wall, and it can get past those pesky Steel-types, as well as Bug-types and Grass-types that it resists with Fire Blast or check physical set-up sweepers with Clear Smog. Its immunity to Toxic also helps, and with miscellaneous resistances to Poison, Bug, and Grass, it also can take on foes like SD Sceptile, Scyther, and Escavalier - its bulk allowed me to wall a Druddigon (which it is faster than) that threatened to take on a lot of Pokemon on my team at that time, along with other misc. foes such as Scraggy, which was completely helpless against it.

On the other hand, it is somewhat prone to being worn down due to its unreliable recovery in Pain Split and it has an atrocious Special Defense. Powerful, Choice Banded hits can take its tool at times, and it cannot break the Substitutes of various Pokemon, mostly SubCMers. It also can take a toll on momentum, as it can allow Pokemon such as Qwilfish to set up Spikes right in your face (unless you run Thunderbolt which is unlikely). Weezing also lacks resistances to most Special Attacks so it just completely folds to them most of the time, unfortunately (unless its Psyshock, which it can take). Finally, it gets destroyed by Slowking, which is annyoing.

Overall, Weezing has been a decent Pokemon for me. It has often been in the thick of the action when I use it to try to take on various foes such as Hitmonlee. Its a pretty good Physical wall but it fails against a lot of other Pokemon in the tier. It ironically gets a lot of competition from Ghost-types such as Misdreavus, although Weezing isn't set-up fodder as much due to a stronger STAB in Sludge Bomb and Fire Blast taking down some foes that resist or are immune to Sludge Bomb.

 

[WePWNPokemon]

I've been playing a bunch of RU recently and honestly Galvantula is such a monster. It has a massive base speed for this tier, great ability and can break through many stall cores with an E-belt. Expert Belt Galvantula is personally my favorite set because of it's amazing moveset and the powerful bluff of specs ofc but choice specs is still a strong set also. Where I am going with this is Galvantula can break through so many teams in this tier and beat the Tangrowth-Slowking regenerator core with ease and I am voting for this spider to be Low A Rank or High B Rank.

 

[Jaiho]

I've been playing a bunch of RU recently and honestly Galvantula is such a monster. It has a massive base speed for this tier, great ability and can break through many stall cores with an E-belt. Expert Belt Galvantula is personally my favorite set because of it's amazing moveset and the powerful bluff of specs ofc but choice specs is still a strong set also. Where I am going with this is Galvantula can break through so many teams in this tier and beat the Tangrowth-Slowking regenerator core with ease and I am voting for this spider to be Low A Rank or High B Rank.

Agreed. The only 2 problems it has is
1. Certain Pokemon, such as steelix, and cryogonal can take its STABs, and

2. A glaring stealth rock weakness, especially problematic when coupled with the fact that it is something of an offensive pivot.

So while it IS outclassed by Rotom-C, and in some cases Manectric, Galvantula deserves a High B Rank

 

[Molk]

kk, time for updates!

Added Sandslash to top D rank

Added Articuno to mid D rank

Added Ninjask to mid D rank

Added Natu to low D rank

Added Weezing to mid C rank

Pokemon that need some more discussion:

Galvantula
Sawk
Sceptile

About Galvantula: I'm actually pretty conflicted over where Galvantula should be myself lol. On one hand Galvantula can be a monster at times, its Electric/Bug STAB combination is absolutely brilliant, especially with Nidoqueen leaving the tier for the time being. Not to mention being able to use a move like Thunder without any significant drawbacks thanks to Compoundeyes really helps Galvy out too. It also sits at a great Speed tier, getting the jump on everything up to Durant so it can pummel them with its aforementioned STABs. Its definitely an offensive force to be reckoned with when used correctly and should be treated as such. On the other hand though, i often find Galvantula is really troubled by its fraility and how quickly it can get worn down over the course of the match. Its 70/60/60 defenses ensure that anything Galvantula can't immediately OHKO will probably be KOing it in return, and its weakness to Stealth Rock (and vulnerability to every hazard, for that matter) limits the amount of times it can safely switch in without Rapid Spin support, especially when combined with possible Life Orb recoil (although the set wepwn mentioned was ebelt, i see a lot of LO galv around). I often find that these traits along with its vulnerability to most forms of Priority such as Entei's Extremespeed and Absol's Sucker Punch means Galvantula only really has a few turns to make a difference before it kicks the bucket. I'd really like to see some more discussion on the Electric Spider and where it should be placed, looking at all of Galvantula's traits at the moment, my vote would probably be for Top B rank at most, but i know some people might disagree.

 

[atomicllamas]

I'm going to agree with Molk on Top B rank being as high as Galvantula should go. It can be a really scary late game sweeper. However, in addition to the stuff Molk mentioned, it is outclassed as an offensive pivot and choice user (and possibly even life orb user) by Manectric, who lacks the stealth rocks weakness which is significant with all the switching being done/extra damage taken by those mons. However, its bug typing is a huge boon offensively.

The E-belt set is really good though, because it bluffs a choice item and doesn't wear Galvantula down. With Nidoqueen gone I could see Galvantula in high B, but definitely not low A.

 

[WePWNPokemon]

Definitely agree with you Molk, Galvantula should be Top B without a doubt imo. There is way too much priority in RU and it's too frail to be A rank.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I agree with Galvantula to Top B-Rank. He's a beast thanks to his STAB coverage moves alone which make him difficult to wall outright; he has STAB Thunder to be hitting hard with while he has Giga Drain for some recovery. Overall his coverage is incredible. He's frail though, and easy to pick off and also faces stiff competition from Manectric, who serves as a better revenge killer, but he's still a great cleaner and deserves Top B-Rank at the least.

I agree with the changes for Sawk and Sceptile obviously, as I explained in a previous post.

Dusknoir and Audino deserve Mid D-Rank. Here's why.

Audino has great bulk and has WishTect and Heal Bell to be a solid team supporter. It is outclassed by Alomomola and Clefable as a WishPasser, but stands out with Regenerator to make it worth using on some kinds of teams, and has Heal Bell, unlike Alomomola, and Regen lets it sometimes stand out from Clefable. Audino also has access to other things, such as Dual Screens and Regen to support the team while staying healthy. Audino also has access to Trick Room, making it a decent defensive setter of the move and has Healing Wish, even though it is outclassed by Mesprit in this regard thanks to the latter's actual offensive presence and cuter looks. It still does decently at the job though. Other than that, Audino is extremely weak and also is outclassed, but it's an okay Pokemon and deserves Mid D.

After some thought I think Dusknoir probably deserves Mid D. He sucks most of the time but he is the most physically bulky Ghost, and also has a nice defensive spinblocker set that can beat both Kabutops and Cryogonal one-on-one due to its bulk and access to Fire Punch+EQ together. Dusknoir can also be annoying with Will-O-Wisp and wall Fighting-types and bug-types such as Gallade, Scolipede, and Escavalier, and if you really need a Ghost that can beat the latter two and also spinblock against both Cryo and Tops, Dusknoir is usable. Dusknoir should almost never be used, but there are some circumstances where it has its uses over the other Ghost-types available.

I still am not sure about Serp, so I'll test it further and come back with results to nominate it for something.

 

[Molk]

So i just had a little convo with Silentverse on irc about a few Pokemon, SV mentioned that he didn't have time to post his opinions in the thread, but i agreed to c/p the log of us chatting so you guys could see some possible planned changes and pitch in your opinions. So anyways, here's the log! :).

Bouff

22:58 Molk o btw do you think
22:58 Molk top B rank is getting overcrowded or anythning?
22:58 Molk especially with so many people pushing for me to be galvy there too
22:58 Molk >.>
22:58 Molk *put
22:58 SilentVerse uhhh a bit
22:58 SilentVerse x)
22:58 Molk do you think i should
22:58 SilentVerse i don't really see bouf being top b anymore for one tbh
22:58 Molk promote/demote anything?
22:58 SilentVerse nor aero
22:58 SilentVerse or musharna
22:59 Molk yeah neither do i tbh, that was the one i was thinking about the most
22:59 SilentVerse though i haven't used musharna in like a year rofl so i can't be sure
22:59 Molk i've used musharna recently, it probably still deserves it
22:59 Molk i'll definitely look at bouff and aero though
22:59 SilentVerse o.k
22:59 SilentVerse yeah bouf is just
22:59 SilentVerse so....meh rn
23:00 Molk would you mind posting on why you don't think it deserves top B rank so it doesn't look like i'm moving things randomly?
23:00 SilentVerse lazy
23:00 Molk if i moved it down w/o a reason it'd probably be frowned on
23:00 *** DarkAceZ quit (Ping timeout)
23:00 SilentVerse however you can copy this log if you want
23:01 SilentVerse the main reason i think bouf is meh nowdays
23:01 SilentVerse is that most of the grass-type attackers run focus blast
23:01 *** Daru quit (Quit: )
23:01 SilentVerse which just completely prevents it from taking advantage of sap sipper
23:01 SilentVerse especially when it's so slow that it doesn't even really stop t hings like smeargle either
23:01 SilentVerse like miltank can do
23:02 SilentVerse like it basically only beats
23:02 SilentVerse ...lilligant and amoonguss pretty much
23:02 SilentVerse not to mention it has issues breaking past rotom / tomb
23:03 Molk and tangrowth that dont run focus blast
23:03 Molk but ya
23:03 Honko ok i posted the set
23:03 Molk its still a decent mon but i think its more of a mid B than a high B
23:03 SilentVerse well
23:03 Molk or should i move it lower?
23:03 SilentVerse i usually run hp fighting tangrowth now anyway rofl
23:03 SilentVerse mid b is fine
23:03 Honko run
23:03 Honko earthquake
23:03 SilentVerse high b is just kinda stretching it
23:03 Honko nobs
23:03 SilentVerse n
23:03 SilentVerse hp fight tangrowth is da bess

 

[EmeraldEnchanter]

I would like to fully support Sceptile to Mid-S. It has plenty of sets and even some unexplored ones like Sub-Petaya. Is really good and the fastest non-boosted pokemon in the game after unburden. It is the ruler of late-game and unpredictable stopping Steelix and other walls from being safe counters. Another bonus is some of the primary walls both on both sides of the spectrum are weak to grass. Rhydon, Alomomola and Slowking as a few examples.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Sceptile is good with Unburden, so I agree with it being mid-S.

I'd like to talk a bit about Dusknoir, and say that HE IS NOT OUTCLASSED AT ALL. The SubPunch set is imo his best set, which isn't outclassed by Golurk because the latter dies to any decently powerful Surf/Grass Knot/Ice Beam and doesn't have Will-o-Wisp. His defensive set can beat Cryogonal and let's not forget he has a good offensive movepool consisting of moves like Fire Punch, Earthquake, SHADOW SNEAK, etc etc etc. I think Dusk is Mid-C rank material.

Unfortunately Dusk can't be moved, so Top-D rank.

 

[WePWNPokemon]

I completely agree with Bouffalant not being Top B anymore. It is no longer a threat that just stands out in the team preview like it used to. We all know Sap Sipper is a blessed ability but like Silent Verse and Molk said most Grass types now run fighting type moves. Bouffalant should most likely be moved to Low B or at Least Mid B.

 

[atomicllamas]

I'm going to agree with Molk on Top B rank being as high as Galvantula should go. It can be a really scary late game sweeper. However, in addition to the stuff Molk mentioned, it is outclassed as an offensive pivot and choice user (and possibly even life orb user) by Manectric, who lacks the stealth rocks weakness which is significant with all the switching being done/extra damage taken by those mons. However, its bug typing is a huge boon offensively.

The E-belt set is really good though, because it bluffs a choice item and doesn't wear Galvantula down. With Nidoqueen gone I could see Galvantula in high B, but definitely not low A.

Yeah I just quoted myself,

If Top B is getting too crowded, then I think that Galvantula is fine staying in mid-B, as I said, in certain ways, Galvantula is outclassed by Manectric (a fellow mid-B mon) and Rotom-mow, especially as a volt switcher or choiced mon.

I also agree with Bouffalant moving down to mid B. Yes Sap Sipper is awesome, but it faces competition from Miltank and Sawsbuck because they are faster (hell, Sawsbuck can even baton pass the boost) and can sometimes counter more grass mons. Bouffalant does have extremely nice bulk, but it it is also taking a lot more hits than other offensive mons with that abysmal speed and lack of priority.

One more mon that I think could be slightly overrated right now in High-B is Walrein. It has trouble fitting into more offensive hail teams because it is an absolute momentum killer, and its typing with Ice body is redundant (still weak to Fighting and Rock), if Walrein could simultaneously have Ice Body and Thick Fat, that would be helpful. But even on hail-stall teams, which are more difficult to pull off, it needs support to function. Toxic spike support is almost a necessity, as Walrein is super hard pressed to get off a toxic without losing too much HP. It also struggles to get around Lanturn, Steel types(hail teams already struggle against steel types so hard), non-Grass Poison types, and a well played substitute user. Glaceon gives Walrein competition with a similar set that can hit a lot harder, and is probably better if you do have toxic spike support (HP Ground gets around grounded poison types, steel types and Lanturn). Don't get me wrong, Walrein is a great mon, if it manages to toxic something with at least 25% health it will be a slow and painful death for that pokemon. It is also bulkier than one would expect, but I don't know if it is necessarily as useful in the current meta as the other mons it shares a tier with.

 

[DittoCrow]

Just want to point out that there's no such thing as "too crowded." If many Pokemon actually deserve a certain rank then they should be there, doesn't matter if there's a lot.

@DoABarrelRoll: Dusknoir is not good in general because it is very slow, gets 2HKOed by many threats (due to its horrible HP), and is outclassed by other Ghost-types. Dusknoir's moves are all easily played around from my experiences, ESPECIALLY the SubPunch set which is not effective at all because you lose 2 moveslots to Sub and Focus Punch and get beaten by so many Pokemon that can't be covered with the remaining 2 moves. Even if you do use 2 more attacking moves, Dusknoir will not have any form of recovery outside of Leftovers and will be disposed of quickly. This has been said many times which is why Dusknoir's rank cannot be changed.

 

[Molk]

Hey guys, i have another discussion from irc about the current viability ranks that i thought would be worth sharing here. Basically, user Honko is proposing that all the hail abusers in the upper ranks should be moved down a little bit due to their reliance on Snover to function properly. I know this is sort of a controversial subject, with some people thinking hail is just another playstyle while many others would go as far as to say that Hail's a broken force in the metagame, so i'm not moving anything just yet, but i just wanted to throw out the idea so i could get some more opinions on the matter :).

Irc discussion

16:36 Honko why is walrein top b
16:36 Honko is that a joke
16:37 Honko it should be like
16:37 Honko mid c
16:37 Honko at best
16:38 double01 ur a joke
16:38 double01 .-.
16:38 Honko you'd have to be as bad as double01 to lose to a walrein
16:38 Molk lol
16:39 *** Oglemi joined #rarelyused
16:39 +++ Q has given owner to Oglemi
16:39 +++ Q has given op to Oglemi
16:39 Honko even noobmon-lover oglemi will agree with me
16:39 Oglemi wat
16:39 Honko [13:36:58] <@Honko> why is walrein top b
16:39 Honko [13:37:01] <@Honko> is that a joke
16:39 Honko [13:37:25] <@Honko> it should be like
16:39 Honko [13:37:26] <@Honko> mid c
16:39 Honko [13:37:27] <@Honko> at best
16:40 Oglemi i'd say high c low b
16:40 double01 hmmmm
16:40 Honko it's at the same rank as glaceon right now
16:40 Honko insane
16:41 double01 why is glaceon so high
16:41 double01 is the real question
16:41 Honko also rotom-f should be top b instead of low a simply because it's only used on hail
16:41 Honko nothing that is only good on hail should be above b
16:42 Honko except snover i guess
16:42 double01 damn
16:42 double01 magikarp in ubers
16:44 CherubAgent i cant believe it
16:44 CherubAgent i choked
16:44 double01 the real question is
16:44 CherubAgent so badly
16:44 double01 why is
16:44 double01 LO LCHERUB
16:44 CherubAgent now im sitting at 1983
16:44 double01 but why is magneton
16:44 double01 low b
16:44 double01 comon cherub
16:44 double01
16:44 CherubAgent ;_;
16:45 double01 im currently 9-0 in ubers
16:46 Honko i challenge oglemi
16:46 Honko to a best of 3
16:46 Honko CC 1v1
16:46 Oglemi fein
16:47 double01 link
16:47 Honko i'm on as Honko because alts are for weak fools
16:47 Oglemi i'm on as oglemi
16:47 Oglemi and a driver so i'm easy to find 9.9
16:48 Honko wow they give power to anyone these days
16:48 Oglemi 9.9
16:48 Oglemi http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-challengecup1vs1-19141131
16:50 Molk if you think hailmons shouldnt be ranked as high as other mons of their effectiveness because they require hail support i understand
16:51 Molk just make a post or something proposing it and i'll move them if nobody objects
16:51 Molk late
16:52 double01 honko
16:52 double01 is just bad
16:52 double01 lol
16:52 Oglemi oglemi da winner
16:52 Honko bs imo
16:52 double01
16:52 *** Oglemi is now known as OgAFK
16:52 Honko molk i did make a post
16:52 Honko like 3 months ago
16:52 Honko use that one
16:52 Molk link
16:53 Honko ugh
16:54 Molk nvm i got it
16:54 Molk http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4500410&postcount=222
16:54 *** Novaray quit (Quit: tonight let's get some, and live while we're young)
16:56 Honko ya i dont know when walrein got moved up to top B but it definitely doesn't belong there
16:58 Honko ah, you're the one who suggested it in the first place
16:58 Honko molk da noob
16:58 Molk
16:58 Molk i didnt suggest it for top though lol
16:58 Molk at least not that i remember
16:59 Honko move it back down
16:59 Honko immediately
16:59 Honko mid or low C
16:59 Molk i'm posting about it now and c/ping the irc log/linking your post
16:59 Molk lol

Post Honko made that he requested i link you guys to

thoughts?

 

[atomicllamas]

I agree with Walrein to be moved to top C or Low B for the same reasons I stated above.

I believe Glaceon should be at least one tier higher than Walrein though, as Glaceon has so many more moveset options and a special attack stat that makes legendaries jealous. Scarf can patch up the low speed or specs can eat all walls for breakfast. It also has solid defenses for an offensive mon.

I don't know if Rotom needs to move down, it has amazing offensive typing and a useful ability that allows him to avoid those pesky spikes, t-spikes, and ground moves. Trick is also just an awesome move in general and volt switch allows him to be an effective scout (though that stealth rock weakness blows).

I propose:

Walrein ---> High C
Glaceon ---> Mid B
Rotom-F ---> Stay or High B

 

[Jaiho]

hmmmm, putting all the hail abusers down a rank or two makes sense, and I would agree with all demotions, except when it comes to Glaceon. Glaceon is pretty viable without the hail, and it still hits like a TRUCK, even when using ice beam. It also has solid 65/110/95 defenses, meaning that it can take a few neutral hits. It is pretty slow, so it is easily revenge killed, but it does have the same speed stat as Emboar, so it can outspeed quite a few things with a choice scarf. I think glaceon deserves its place in Top B Rank

However, the other hail abusers don't have the same qualities glaceon does outside of the hail so changes it think make sense are:

Walrein ---> Low B Rank

Rotom-F ---> Top B Rank

Vanilluxe ---> Top D Rank

Glalie: I can in no good conscience put any pokemon side by side with Munchlax in E rank, so it is best to keep it in Low D

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I'd say Walrein should be Mid or Low B, because it can be really annoying in hail thanks to SubProtect and Toxic+Hail damage will quickly rack up, meaning it can annoy the hell out of the opponent to absolutely no end in the hail, and is overall one of the most threatening Pokemon that a hail team can have. Mid or Low B is definitely suitable for Walrein; it shouldn't be C because Hail is a pretty strong force in the metagame as it is the only weather. Mid B at best is suitable for Walrein.

I'd agree with SV on demoting Afrobull to B, simply because it's too slow for this metagame, not to mention Specs Tangrowth along with Sceptile carry Focus Blast which hinders Afrobull's role as a Grass counter. Bouffalant also lacks useful resistances and relies on a recoil move for STAB, which wastes some perfectly good bulk. Bouffalant for Mid at least.

Glaceon could stay in Top B though; it's insanely powerful in hail. Specs and Scarf are both great sets and SubProtect is nice too.

Glalie is really niche but keep in in Low D; it's okay in hail.

Rotom-F should stay in Low A; unlike the other hail mons it's not that bad outside of hail since it has nice STAB combo and could work outside of it.

So TL;DR

Bouffalant----> Mid B-Rank
Walrein-----> Mid B-Rank
Glaceon-----> Top B-Rank
Glalie------> Low D-Rank
Rotom-F------> Low A-Rank

 

[Honko]

To be specific about the Hail mons, I would like to see:

Rotom-F -> Top B: I just don't agree with putting anything that depends on Hail to be good in A. That is a huge support burden. I know Rotom-F isn't useless outside of Hail but it's never a good choice for your team except on Hail so that's not really relevant. One of the key differences between A and B rank is that B-rank mons require more support. Snover is a lot of support. Nothing else in the S or A ranks requires as much support as Rotom-F to be effective.

Walrein -> Mid C: Walrein is extremely overrated. It's definitely not "one of the most threatening" Hail mons; most of the best Hail teams don't use it, preferring some combination of Glaceon/Rotom-F/Cryogonal/Jynx and then stuff like Spiritomb/Slowking/Uxie/Druddigon/Poliwrath/Escavalier to cover the weaknesses. Walrein absolutely does not belong in B.

Glaceon is fine where it is, and nobody cares about Vanilluxe or Glalie.