The UU Viability Ranking Thread

[ElectivireRocks]

I don't understand why all the hailmons were lowered by one or even two ranks when it's a deadly playstyle with few checks in UU.
Can we please bring them up again where they rightfully belong?

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

I don't understand why all the hailmons were lowered by one or even two ranks when it's a deadly playstyle with few checks in UU.
Can we please bring them up again where they rightfully belong?

I think the issue with that is that these ranks reflect a Pokemon's potential overall, not just in accord to one playstyle. Like, how good is Walrein and Rotom-F outside of Hail? Without the weather up both are outclassed and have sore flaws that make them otherwise much less effective.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I wouldn't be opposed to moving Rotom-F and Walrein up. While they're not good outside of hail, they are extremely lethal in it, and as said, hail is a pretty deadly, albeit underrated playstyle. They do very well in hail and fulfill a niche there, which makes them worth using. I could see them in either B or C, leaning towards B though.

 

[Exbo]

I think the issue with that is that these ranks reflect a Pokemon's potential overall, not just in accord to one playstyle. Like, how good is Walrein and Rotom-F outside of Hail? Without the weather up both are outclassed and have sore flaws that make them otherwise much less effective.

Hide

The general idea of the topic is to rank each UU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.
EX: Victini can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Froslass can be ranked in A tier as supportive threat and Snorlax can also be ranked in A tier as a defensive threat. Note: These are just examples.

Do you mean "outside of hail teams" or "when Wallrein's hail inducer is down"? Because the in the OP it is stated that we are interested in the pokemon's playstyle that fits said pokemon.

Of course, Wallrein is SUPER weather dependent, and I can't imagine someone using it in a regular balanced team. So we should judge it by its ability to pull through in hail teams only, imo.

Unless you meant "if the weather inducer Abomasnow" is down. Then yes, that limits Wallreins survivability and some may want him to move down a rank.
Still, it's good enough... the hardest counters I can think of are Empoleon, RD Kingdra, rare Ice types and um.... skill link Cinccino?
(depends of course on whether Wallrein runs hydro pump or Blizzard)

 

[Warb]

Well, if you want to run something different on Galvantuala, run expert belt, surprises people everytime. I do want to try galvantula, with a good base speed, an above average special attack, which when paired with its near 100 accuracy thunder, becomes deadly. I do believe that expert belt is the better option over life orb not only due to the ability to swtch moves, but you really need that etra health for hazards and volt swtching. I would also like to point out that Galvantual's bulk is actually slightly better than Mienshao, it has a higher speed, and dual stab. I think if you're adept at keeping rocks off the field, it could be just as good a voltswitcher as Mienshao is a U-turner. So all this acounted for, I think B-rank or low B-rank is a fair rating for Galvantula

I've built a team with expert belt Galvantula to test it. From my experience, it doesn't hit hard enough. While electric is a very good offensive typing, Galvantula's below 100 base SpA makes Life Orb really kinda necessary. As a reference: my jolly expert belt Galvantula failed to OHKO a Swampert with Giga Drain, a Swampert which I specifically lured in by going for expert belt Thunder to prevent SR; it lived with like 8% (I'm pretty sure LO would have killed there).
Preserving health with a glass cannon Poke such as Galvantula is often unneeded, but it does give you one more switch-in into SR if needed, which is actually a nice thing in quite a few situations. I do think the expert belt set is very nice to lure in stuff, but at the same time expert belt is lacking JUST that bit of additional damage output to profit from a successful lure.

Nonetheless, I agree with a low B-Rank for Galvantula.

 

[GOthee]

What about Bisharp being C rank when it is a huge threath to many teams even in higher tiers. I nominate Bisharp for Rank B because of grat 125 attack priority STAB Sucker punch and boosting move which can make him deadly even more when he gets free subs into any weak attack.

Aslo Escavalier sure has 135 base Attack but he is really slow .So slow that even Slowbro is faster. He is rank B for some reason.I think he deserves C rank beasue of STAB megahorn . Still he isnt better than Bisharp.

 

[PTJon7]

Bisharp requires very specific win conditions to set up a Substutite and a Swords Dance. If it does with dual STABs for attacks it is easily walled by Steel and Water types. It is basically powerless to stop any wall from phazing it, and is pretty much beaten by any offensive pokemon with a Substitute. If it opts for Sucker Punch and a Fighting attack it literally can't do damage to a Ghost if the Ghost has a non attacking move (as most do). Bisharp is also outclassed as a Sucker Punch user in general by Honchkrow, who has access to much better moves and Moxie.

Escavalier however has excellent bulk and typing, with only 1 weakness. Its very short sighted to call something bad just because its slow, there are many ways to get around that. Escavalier's Choice Band set is one of the most powerful things in the tier, as Escavalier's massive 135 Base Attack is backed by a 120 BP STAB Megahorn.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Escavalier imo is still very worthy of B-Rank; he hits like a truck with CB Megahorn and that makes him very worth using. Despite his lack of coverage he literally murders most switch-ins with his powerful Megahorn. While he may be slow, he's also reasonably bulky; 70 / 105 / 105 is pretty good bulk, while a Steel-typing gives him many resistances to come in on a variety of threats such as Roserade, Shaymin, and Weavile along with many others. He is also one of few viable checks to Kingdra / Flygon as well as hail. Pursuit is a great piece of Escavalier's moveset and overall these positives make him a pretty solid B-Rank Pokemon, since he is a great Pokemon in general.

I'm indifferent on Bisharp. I will admit my experiences with him in UU have all been pretty positive, since he has swept his fair share of teams whenever I use him. He has a nice typing as well and has SD+Priority to be lethal. That said, he also has a horrible weakness to Fighting, and Sucker Punch is unreliable at times. That said, C-Rank does seem decent enough for Bisharp, just do note that C-Rank doesn't mean a Pokemon is terrible, it just needs quite a bit of support in order to be as effective as some of the higher ranked Pokemon. I'd say he's Top C at least tbh.

On another note, I've been using Uxie lately and it's pretty viable. It has some really good bulk that allows it to take hits, while it has an amazing support movepool, allowing it to support the team with Stealth Rock (arguably the best move in the game), Thunder Wave, Toxic, Trick Room, Sunny Day, Rain Dance, etc. Uxie makes a great piece of rain, sun, and TR teams thanks to its bulk and support movepool, and also has U-turn to scout and prevent it from being setup fodder. I'd say it deserves C-Rank, simply because it can support the team, but it faces competition as a bulky Psychic-type from Cresselia and Mew.

 

[ElectivireRocks]

The main hail trio (Abomasnow, Rotom-F and Walrein) should at the very least be placed in the same rank.
Placing Abomasnow in B rank and the two big hail abusers in C rank in a tier where hail is the only permaweather meakes no sense.

It's pointless to use Abomasnow if you're not going to abuse it since this is not OU where hail's primary function is removing sun/rain/sand: if you're using Abomasnow then you are using Rotom-F, Walrein or both. Not doing so would be like using Tyranitar in ubers without Excadrill.

I would argue that all three of them belong in A rank. But regardless of that Rotom-F and Walrein can't be placed in a lower rank than Abomasnow as long as hail is the only permaweather in UU.

 

[NfskMjmMal]

The main hail trio (Abomasnow, Rotom-F and Walrein) should at the very least be placed in the same rank.
Placing Abomasnow in B rank and the two big hail abusers in C rank in a tier where hail is the only permaweather meakes no sense.

It's pointless to use Abomasnow if you're not going to abuse it since this is not OU where hail's primary function is removing sun/rain/sand: if you're using Abomasnow then you are using Rotom-F, Walrein or both. Not doing so would be like using Tyranitar in ubers without Excadrill.

I would argue that all three of them belong in A rank. But regardless of that Rotom-F and Walrein can't be placed in a lower rank than Abomasnow as long as hail is the only permaweather in UU.

Just because they're all used on the same kind of team doesn't necessarily mean they are all equally viable in general. Part of how viable a Pokemon is is determined by the support it provides for the team. In that regard, Abomasnow provides massive and obligatory support. You can make a good hail team without Rotom-F, but you can't make a good hail team without Abomasnow. Although there is no other permanent weather in UU, Kindgra, Tornadus, Raikou, and Zapdos become much more threatening under rain, which Abomasnow can stop. Rotom-F and Walrein are simply not very good in UU if there is not permanent Hail which means that they are nearly unable to function well without some support.

 

[PTJon7]

I dunno I think Rotom-F and Walrein could both be B-Rank. The only realistic way to remove Hail once its up is to Rain Dance, which won't be happening in the majority of games. This means that both of these pokemon can function at their full potential the majority of the time. In Hail both pokemon are (I'd say) almost A-Rank, Rotom-F has BoltBeam STABS , with one of it's STABs being 100% accuracte Blizzard. Walrein is such a massive threat in Hail, and can stall out entire teams just by Subbing and Protecting.

 

[TPO3]

I dunno I think Rotom-F and Walrein could both be B-Rank. The only realistic way to remove Hail once its up is to Rain Dance, which won't be happening in the majority of games. This means that both of these pokemon can function at their full potential the majority of the time. In Hail both pokemon are (I'd say) almost A-Rank, Rotom-F has BoltBeam STABS , with one of it's STABs being 100% accuracte Blizzard. Walrein is such a massive threat in Hail, and can stall out entire teams just by Subbing and Protecting.

Rotom-F should definitely be B-rank imo. BoltBeam coverage is good itself (see: Starmie), but boltbeam STABs, with the "beam" part being Blizzard in Hail is just obscene, even if it does make you weak to Fighting/Fire. Oh, and Levitate is pretty cool too.

Walrein i'm kinda more debatable on. I personally think it's a high C-rank, but I can definitely understand a B-rank. Walrein needs a bit more support, imo. Its only real way to heal itself is through Ice Body, and it has pretty terrible 4 moveslot syndrome IMO, trying to fit Toxic, Blizzard, and Roar into the last moveslot. In addition, it's weak to Stealth Rock, but also takes damage from spikes, meaning it can't switch into all that much, especially not with a Fighting/Electric weakness. Anything with Roar makes its life hell, as well. That being said, if it does get in for free, whether after a KO or through a ballsy double switch, once it's in, it's in. And it's going to be in for quite a while, with Sub and Protect, it just doesn't die. While it stalls quite well, it doesn't do much back to the opponent most of the time, aside from just sitting there. That's why I think it's high C-rank, but I can definitely understand a B-rank.

 

[KM]

Walrein i'm kinda more debatable on. I personally think it's a high C-rank, but I can definitely understand a B-rank. Walrein needs a bit more support, imo. Its only real way to heal itself is through Ice Body, and it has pretty terrible 4 moveslot syndrome IMO, trying to fit Toxic, Blizzard, and Roar into the last moveslot. In addition, it's weak to Stealth Rock, but also takes damage from spikes, meaning it can't switch into all that much, especially not with a Fighting/Electric weakness. Anything with Roar makes its life hell, as well. That being said, if it does get in for free, whether after a KO or through a ballsy double switch, once it's in, it's in. And it's going to be in for quite a while, with Sub and Protect, it just doesn't die. While it stalls quite well, it doesn't do much back to the opponent most of the time, aside from just sitting there. That's why I think it's high C-rank, but I can definitely understand a B-rank.

I honestly don't think there's a case of 4MSS. As someone who has gotten high on the ladder with a hail team including Walrein, you really do need toxic spike and hazard support to make it work, and the only real viable moveset is Roar - Blizz - Prot - Substitute. Anything with Roar doesn't really make its life hell, because with a bit of speedcreeping it can easily outspeed other common roarers, most notably Empoleon, Blastoise, Snorlax. As to your comment about it "not doing much back to the opponent other than sitting there", I'd like to point you to some calcs.

0 SpA Walrein Blizzard vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Roserade: 236-282 (90.07 - 107.63%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Walrein Blizzard vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 284-336 (82.08 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Walrein Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 248-294 (72.72 - 86.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Walrein Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mienshao: 186-220 (68.63 - 81.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Granted, it's not exactly an offensive powerhouse, but if something's weak to it or fairly frail, its an easy "1HKO" after hazard support and protecting to rack up hail and toxic damage. You have to remember that even without investment, it's still a 120 BP Stab move.

Finally, you stated that "it can't switch into that much". Walrein can basically switch into any choice-locked pokemon on a non-super effective move or any tank/wall in the metagame. Just as common things it can easily switch in to, get free subs, and start to troll, I'd like to point you to Umbreon(without toxic), Bronzong, Swampert, Azumarill, Sharpedo, Kingdra, most variants of Slowbro, Scarf Flygon/Krookodile and basically anything else that isn't in a favorable situation. With some necessary team support in the form of Qwilfish/a special wall, it's pretty easy to lure out pokes that Walrein can just demolish.

At the end of the day, Walrein would be S-rank if it could wreak the havoc that it does without massive amounts of support. The only reason that it isn't looking at a banhammer is the fact that it practically requires massive amounts of support in the form of hazards to help it stall, Abomasnow to set up weather, a Poison type to keep toxic spikes off the field, and some resists to let it safely switch in. Once in the field, however, it can basically sweep the entire metagame purely by wearing them down. The only true counters to it lie in things such as RD Kingdra or SpD Zapdos, as everything else will be easily slaughtered.

In case you couldn't tell, I'm nominating Walrein + Rotom-F to join Abomasnow in at least B-rank.

 

[Garchomp for president]

I think cresselia should be in theA Rank due to its walling abilitys and for settimg up CM's but is very predictable and needs some walls like snorlax finished off. Though its defensive, cresselia can be pretty offencive when at +6 as it can set up if you get smart with switch ins and it literaly walls some big physical threats like honchrow, which should kill it and with massive HP, good def and spD, cress is well desrveing of A rank.

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

I think cresselia should be in theA Rank due to its walling abilitys and for settimg up CM's but is very predictable and needs some walls finished off.

Personally I think Cresselia's fine where she's at in B-Rank...even though her bulk is dumb stupid high, she faces competition from pokes like Azelf, who pose WAY much more of an immediate threat offensively, pokes like Uxie and Slowbro, who are also bulky Psychic-types with impressive stats of their own (not to mention more versatility; Uxie's support movepool is vastly superior to Cresselia's, and Slowbro's able to go offensive with a Calm Mind/Choice Specs set) and it also has trouble competing with Mew, who is...essentially a Swiss-Army Knife of a Pokemon in itself.

 

[Garchomp for president]

Well cresselia holds the only reliable recovery of them all. In exception of mew though im not sure.RePost: Sorry, slowbro has slack off

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Walrein and Rotom-F definitely need to go to B-rank. All Walrein needs is a free turn to set up a sub, and it can go into a SubTect stalling spree that is difficult to stop. Not only is it stupidly annoying, it is also very effective. Rotom-F, meanwhile, sits at a speed tier which outspeeds other common Pokemon such as Heracross and Nidoqueen. With a Scarf, it can start to Blizzspam at amazing speed. Its SubSplit set is really good as well since it can force switches, set up subs and whittle down the opponent's HP, with residual damage helping it out. Fantastic typing including a resistance to the BoltBeam combo also allow it to come in on Raikou lacking Aura Sphere, Nidoking/queen, and the like. However, both require large team support in Abomasnow and Toxic Spikes in Walrein's case. B-rank fits perfectly.

Cresselia is a great Pokemon IMO thanks to its titanic defenses and I can attest to that. It's perfect for stall teams since it really only faces competition from Uxie. Reliable recovery in Moonlight sets it apart from the lake guardians and it can even support its teammates with a plethora of moves like dual screens. Its biggest niche would be Lunar Dance. However, it faces intense competition from Uxie and Mew, both of which have better supporting options, and cannot do much back to opponents unlike Mew. I'd say B-rank is just fine

I'd also like to nominate Nidoqueen for A-rank. IMO Nidoqueen is amazing right now. It is extremely versatile unlike Nidoking and its bulk allows it to tank hits from various threats and strike back. It's one of the best counters to the very common fighting-types and Electric-types. Examples are Heracross, Raikou, Zapdos and Mienshao -- Nidoqueen can tank a hit from these threats and hit back extremely hard, which also means it frees up teamslots. Nidoqueen can go offensive with a Sheer Force + Life Orb attacking set which hits very hard despite low offensive stats and it holds amazing coverage giving it a super effective hit on at least most of the metagame. Its bulk also lets it support the team as it can also set up Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes, while hitting hard. All these strengths allow Nidoqueen to deserve an A-rank.

 

[relaunched]

I can't see Walrein in B-Rank. First of all, it absolutely requires Hail to function well. This already means stacking Stealth Rock weaknesses and Ice typing with Abomasnow. It fits two C-Rank descriptions to a T. It's got a crippling flaw in that it gets owned by most offensive Pokemon in the UU metagame, making it very hard to switch in. It also requires substantial support in a necessary teammate (Abomasnow), and really more if you want to play it properly because of the aforementioned difficulty of switching it in.

Rotom-F is pretty good just because almost all Pokemon that can take a BoltBeam move can't take a Trick. It threatens offensive teams with its coverage (as long as it's Scarfed, otherwise it's not that great), and threatens defensive teams with Trick and still coverage to some extent. I still am reluctant to like this for B Rank though. Keep in mind the necessary teammate. Nothing higher than C-Rank has a necessary teammate. Heck, nothing besides Rotom-F/Walrein in C-Rank has a necessary teammate. Also keep in mind that this isn't OU, where weather runs rampant and necessary teammates are the norm. Still, Rotom-F is more reasonable than Walrein for B-Rank just because it doesn't really need support outside of Abomasnow (though Spikes/Toxic Spikes are really nice).

It's pointless to use Abomasnow if you're not going to abuse it since this is not OU where hail's primary function is removing sun/rain/sand: if you're using Abomasnow then you are using Rotom-F, Walrein or both. Not doing so would be like using Tyranitar in ubers without Excadrill.

You know the latter happens all the time on perfectly good Ubers teams, right? Abomasnow isn't a terrible Pokemon, and it doesn't have to go with one of these two. Lots of things can use Blizzard, Hail is great for stall teams because of the chip damage, and there are other abusers (Glaceon, Overcoat Escavalier).

I support ScraftyIsTheBest's suggestion of Uxie for C-Rank. It doesn't do much better than Mew/Cresselia, but it does have a niche on offensive teams in Screens + Memento. It definitely couldn't go any higher than C though, as Mew is almost always a better choice.

Nidoqueen for A-Rank is interesting. One problem with Nidoqueen is that it's very easy to wear down, especially since it's so slow. If you run a defensive set, it becomes pretty hard to wear down, but doesn't have that power that it has on an offensive set. I think the most comparable mon to Nidoqueen in A-Rank would be Swampert. Indeed, their defensive sets are quite similar. However, Swampert might have the edge on offense with its incredibly powerful Choice Band set. It's a tough call for Nidoqueen, though I'm inclined to say it should stay in B.

On another note, it seems odd to me that no Pokemon lacking an offensive set lies in S/A-rank. There are quite a few Pokemon in those top ranks that do have a very effective defensive set, though. Anyone want to take a gander at why this is? Is it that the metagame is more offensive right now? Or is it just that the best offensive threats mostly happen to work well as defensive threats. Are there entirely defensive Pokemon (Umbreon, e.g.) that should be in A rank?

 

[Garchomp for president]

Well do keep in mind Rotom-f is a speed freak. But it niche is blizzard spammimg and frankly, it loses its charm outside of hail. Its frail and its typing isnt doing any favors. Therefore I stand by it staying in Rank C but wairein isnt off the hook. I actually think he may due well in rank B for one reson. Its his bulk and his ability thick fat. Outside of hail, thick fat is a good team support and with Chandelure, darmanitan, and vic running around, your never too sure. I say Walrein for Rank B

 

[Punchshroom]

Thick Fat? Are you serious? Walrein's poor defensive typing means he has no business sponging hits of that caliber, and there's Thick Fat Snorlax who walls Chandy (even with Energy Ball), fares no better than Walrein against Darmanitan's Superpower, and can Pursuit Trap Chandy and Victini, all the while not being liablities in the face of Raikou, Shaymin or Suicune plus no SR weakness.

Ice Body Walrein works because it almost never has to take a direct super effective hit (which are common in UU) due to Substitute and Protect shenanigans. Thick Fat Walrein has no business even in NU, much less UU where Electrics and Grasses are common and Fighting types are everywhere, while lacking the offensive presence to scare them from coming in.

 

[Garchomp for president]

I am talking about a poke that has no reson to be outside of hail. Im not stupid. Besides, tell me what ability you should let it have if it has no hail support? Also dont you think I know about super power, pursuit, and energyball?

 

[Garchomp for president]

Well do keep in mind Rotom-f is a speed freak. But it niche is blizzard spammimg and frankly, it loses its charm outside of hail. Its frail and its typing isnt doing any favors. Therefore I stand by it staying in Rank C but wairein isnt off the hook. I actually think he may due well in rank B for one reson. Its his bulk and his ability thick fat. Outside of hail, thick fat is a good team support and with Chandelure, darmanitan, and vic running around, your never too sure. I say Walrein for Rank B

Did you catch that punchshroom?

 

[Punchshroom]

Yeah I caught that, but really you shouldn't even be using Walrein outside of Hail or over other Fire resists that, you know, don't have an SR weakness while packing better typing and good support options and / or offensive prowess like Blastoise, Swampert, Suicune, Slowbro or other bulky Waters. Really the only thing Walrein has over other bulky Waters is Super Fang, but that isn't enough to justify his very relevant and common weaknesses.

 

[Garchomp for president]

Exactly, but this thread is for individual pokes. Not cores. Hence ranking system.

 

[Punchshroom]

Exactly, but this thread is for individual pokes. Not cores. Hence ranking system.

Umm....exactly? Walrein is really not good on its own, I can't seem to justify using this over pretty much any bulky Water in the tier if it isn't accompanied by Hail. Slowbro/king resists Fighting (as opposed to being weak to it) and has Regenerator; Swampert resists Rock (again, instead of being weak to it), has Stealth Rock and can tank the physical Fires much better; Blastoise can spin (that's honestly it, but that's important); Empoleon has wonderful resists and Stealth Rock; Suicune won't die and has Calm Mind for a possible counter-sweep; Qwilfish has hazards, Fighting resist and Intimidate; hell, even Milotic boasts reliable recovery, and they're both C-Rank! How would Walrein beat Milotic in ranking then? Don't give me any Super Fang crap :I

....Did I mention Walrein can't Scald? Yeah.