Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Gary]

You talk as if jirachi couldnt afford a fail. Steel/Psychic typing and solid 100/100/100 bulk means that jirachi is not as reliant on it as you think and if all else fails wish+protect can recover your health so you can try again.

We get what you're trying to say, but going back to what vyomov said about Jirachi being able to possibly paralyze Keldeo next turn, is true to what Halcyon said on Jirachi's dependence on hax. It's true that Jirachi would still be a very useful Pokemon if it didn't have the ability Serene Grace, since it could just run T-Wave, but one of the biggest reasons that Jirachi is so threatening at times is because of its dependence on hax. I think any seasoned battler has had that time when Jirachi takes out several of their Pokemon from flinch hax alone. The paraflinch strategy is just so deadly. Still, I've had times when the opponent relies on Jirachi's para flinching to overcome certain Pokemon. It's absolutely true that Jirachi has very solid defense and can possibly recover back its health next turn, but vyomov is hurting your argument by arguing that hax alone allows Jirachi to overcome Pokemon that would normally slaughter it. Jirachi is really versatile and amazing in this meta, but versatility doesn't necessarily make it a good Pokemon.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

We get what you're trying to say, but going back to what vyomov said about Jirachi being able to possibly paralyze Keldeo next turn, is true to what Halcyon said on Jirachi's dependence on hax. It's true that Jirachi would still be a very useful Pokemon if it didn't have the ability Serene Grace, since it could just run T-Wave, but one of the biggest reasons that Jirachi is so threatening at times is because of its dependence on hax. I think any seasoned battler has had that time when Jirachi takes out several of their Pokemon from flinch hax alone. The paraflinch strategy is just so deadly. Still, I've had times when the opponent relies on Jirachi's para flinching to overcome certain Pokemon. It's absolutely true that Jirachi has very solid defense and can possibly recover back its health next turn, but vyomov is hurting your argument by arguing that hax alone allows Jirachi to overcome Pokemon that would normally slaughter it. Jirachi is really versatile and amazing in this meta, but versatility doesn't necessarily make it a good Pokemon.

Youre right that versatility alone wont make it to S-Rank. However the fact that jirachi can fullfill nearly any role your team wants AND be good at each of them (unlike mew for example) is what makes it S worthy.

 

[vyomov]

Alright, want to introduce another change:
Salamence for A-Rank
Salamence has recently become highly underrated, courtesy the influx of faster mons and the wallbreaking power of Kyurem-B.
However, Salemence does possess some major assets that make it worthy of A-Rank. Firstly, the MixMence set is VERY dangerous. Most dragon types struggle to deal with the Steel types that(as a result of said dragons) are highly popular. MixMence offers a way out, with Fire Blast roasting most Steel types(Ferrothorn and Scizor amongst others), while the rare exceptions to the FB(notably Heatran, but Empoleon as well) are beaten easily with Earthquake. MixMence also is dangerous because you have no idea whether to bring in a special wall or a physical wall. Usually, the issue with Draco Meteor is the SpA drop, forcing a mon to switch out and losing momentum gained by the mon. Salamence faces no such issues: it tramples over physical walls with DM and then proceeds to rule with Outrage.
ScarfMence is equally dangerous, especially as a late-game cleaner because of Moxie, which means that it can turn a 5-3 into a 6-5, a valuable asset for many teams.
Of course, that isn't to say it hasn't got flaws. Salamence sits at a 100 Base speed tier, which while by no means is bad is unfortunately not fast enough to beat out the common mons who sit at 108(Keldeo and Terrakion) and faster mons like Latios and Latias who greatly threaten it.
A weakness to SR doesn't help either, which is why Salamence is no longer as broken as it was in DPP OU(because of the proliferation of dragons not weak to SR, I know SR was present in DPP as well).
Nevertheless, the merits of Salamence deserve A-Rank in my opinion. I may have missed some flaws or some pluses of Salamence, so feel free to debate the issue, especially as I'm not very experienced as a battler(and not very good either :p).

 

[Gary]

Youre right that versatility alone wont make it to S-Rank. However the fact that jirachi can fullfill nearly any role your team wants AND be good at each of them (unlike mew for example) is what makes it S worthy.

Not really, at all actually. Jirachi may be a great special wall, sweeper, and revenge killer, but I can't just slap it on any of times like you could with Genesect. Jirachi is often times a Pokemon that patches up holes in a lot of teams, or otherwise known as the "glue" that holds a team together. Still, that doesn't mean that I can put Jirachi on all of my teams. You might as well say that Landorus-T should be S-rank as well, since he can function as a great offensive pivot, wall, revenge killer, and sweeper. But do you see people using him on every team? Of course not. Once again, you kind of contradicted yourself. Sure, Jirachi may be versatile, but that doesn't make it S-rank. If a Pokemon is versatile, then that means it can fulfill a lot of roles effectively, so by saying that versatility alone wont make it S-rank then saying "However the fact that jirachi can fullfill nearly any role your team wants AND be good at each of them (unlike mew for example) is what makes it S worthy", is a complete contradiction to your argument, since you're trying to prove how versatility does NOT make it S-rank. You just restated versatility, not proved it wrong.

If being able to fulfill numerous roles effectively makes a Pokemon S-rank, then Landorus-T, Garchomp, Celebi, Rotom-W, Tyranitar, Scizor, and Latias/Latios should all be S-rank, since all of these Mons are very versatile and can function effectively in many different roles.

 

[Vemane]

''Only 60%''. How can you possibly say ''only'' and ''60%'' in the same sentence. Iron Head is enough to flinch anything that lacks a 4x resistance to death. The coverage of the subcalm set is enough once you get going with boosts. And jirachi has many opportunities to setup. And seriously, scarf rachi is setup bait? How are you going to setup when you get flinched nearly every turn or when jirachi can simply u-turn out? Jirachi has few flaws but its qualities far surpasses them which is enough to be considered a S-Rank mon.

I hope you realize that flinching twice in a row or paralyzing twice in a row is close to a 30% occurance, and even less if you do so continuously. I think it's humorous that you consider an effect that is just as accurate as hypnosis to be reliable.

On a choice scarf set, you can't just u-turn out... You are locked into a move. So you can either kill my +1 salamence (owait speed tie) and then give me a turn to do whatever because ice punch is piss weak, or you can just let salamence go to town on your team.

 

[ElectivireRocks]

You really can't compare Iron Head to Hypnsosis in terms of reliability.
A missed Hypnosis is a wasted turn, while an Iron Head that doesn't flinch still deals damage.

 

[Lavos]

mence is still relatively slow for a scarfer, being outsped by all the common ones like terrak keldeo rachi etc (rachi ties but lots of mence run ada anyways and jolly +1 outrage does like 45%) plus it's really weak to priority - ice shard ohkos, cb sciz bp does around 60%, etc. it also has trouble switching in considering the highly offensive state of the metagame, and even if the opponent lacks a scarfer to outspeed and revenge mence, it's likely that the team will still have an easy answer to whatever move mence happens to be locked into. theres really no way you can call mence a-rank in the current meta, i even think it being a- is a stretch but it has such redeeming typing, stats, and movepool that moving it down to b+ wouldn't really be justified either. no, mence is perfectly at home in a-.

 

[Halcyon.]

You really can't compare Iron Head to Hypnsosis in terms of reliability.
A missed Hypnosis is a wasted turn, while an Iron Head that doesn't flinch still deals damage.

Oh yes, those Iron Heads coming off of uninvested base 100 attack really strike fear into the hearts of most OU 'mons. Yes, obviously Iron Head does damage to Pokémon even if it doesn't flinch, but unless you're facing a Tyranitar or something, you probably aren't using Iron Head for the damage.

I'm not saying Jirachi is bad, it's A+ for a reason. But the flaws that it has, namely, relying on hax, only decent stats all around (which means it's speed and offenses are only average in today's meta), and 4MSS when using Sub CM, keep it just that and not S rank.

 

[Tressed]

I'm gonna back up both Vemane and AfroThunder rule here on Terrakion for A+. Terrakion is definitely good, no doubt about it, but I don't see why its S Rank. Every semi-commonly used Scarfer in the game can outspeed it, and its somewhat difficult to get into a fight (not that its Lucario-esque frail, but it isn't the most bulky thing, and it does lack the resistances other Pokemon would bring to the table). Still threatening, obviously, but I don't think that S-Rank is justified (pun fully intended) for Terrakion.

Terrakion down to A+ Rank

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Not really, at all actually. Jirachi may be a great special wall, sweeper, and revenge killer, but I can't just slap it on any of times like you could with Genesect. Jirachi is often times a Pokemon that patches up holes in a lot of teams, or otherwise known as the "glue" that holds a team together. Still, that doesn't mean that I can put Jirachi on all of my teams. You might as well say that Landorus-T should be S-rank as well, since he can function as a great offensive pivot, wall, revenge killer, and sweeper. But do you see people using him on every team? Of course not. Once again, you kind of contradicted yourself. Sure, Jirachi may be versatile, but that doesn't make it S-rank. If a Pokemon is versatile, then that means it can fulfill a lot of roles effectively, so by saying that versatility alone wont make it S-rank then saying "However the fact that jirachi can fullfill nearly any role your team wants AND be good at each of them (unlike mew for example) is what makes it S worthy", is a complete contradiction to your argument, since you're trying to prove how versatility does NOT make it S-rank. You just restated versatility, not proved it wrong.

If being able to fulfill numerous roles effectively makes a Pokemon S-rank, then Landorus-T, Garchomp, Celebi, Rotom-W, Tyranitar, Scizor, and Latias/Latios should all be S-rank, since all of these Mons are very versatile and can function effectively in many different roles.

No not really. Take mew for example. It can do anything but none of its sets are particullary effective and many are outclassed. Jirachi on the other hand can perfectly fullfill any role while being very effective at what it does. You mention several other pokemons that can fullfill many roles but none of them are really on jirachi level, specially because they tend to run pratically the same moves all the time with only small differences while jirachi is much more unpredictable.

 

[ciaranroy]

I find Keldeo to be more A+ than Terrakion. Terrakion has two amazing stabs, which Keldeo cannot boast, as it is easily walled. Terrakion has much better set-up options too, with SD and RP at its disposal, whereas Keldeo only has CM. I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say that other scarfers outspeed them, though. The only significant threats above are Scarf Lati@s and the rare Scarf Gengr. I guess the insignificant Scarf Jolteon too. Terrakion is easily the best set-up sweeper in the tier, and to find safe switch-ins to its Choice Band set you need to go to the lower tiers. Keldeo, on the other hand, is walled or beaten by Celebi, Jellicent, Toxicroak, Tentacruel, Gyarados, Starmie and Lati@s (I might have even missed a few). Keldeo needs a ton of team support to successfully sweep, whereas Terrakion barely needs any, if any at all. Not to mention that Terrakion is a great SR lead with an extremely fast Taunt and the offensive pressure it applies. Fair enough, Terrakion is obliterated by priority, whereas it barely harms Keldeo, but Keldeo's relative unreliabilty means it should be considered for A+ before Terrakion.

 

[Reymedy]

But Keldeo's stab is boosted by the most common weather in the game ?

 

[Vemane]

No not really. Take mew for example. It can do anything but none of its sets are particullary effective and many are outclassed. Jirachi on the other hand can perfectly fullfill any role while being very effective at what it does. You mention several other pokemons that can fullfill many roles but none of them are really on jirachi level, specially because they tend to run pratically the same moves all the time with only small differences while jirachi is much more unpredictable.

The problem with this argument isn't the concept, it's the fact that it's complete bullshit. Jirachi can successfully do maybe 3 roles, and one, in my opinion, is utter trash and another can't stand up to current huge threats (ie. land+boosted water attacks+etc.).

And jack of all trades pokes don't run the same moves all of the time; I haven't a single clue where you got that. Mew for example could do sd with drain punch/sucker punch/sd/zen headbutt. Physically defensive with wow/psychic/taunt/softboiled. Scarf with u-turn/zen headbutt/etc. etc.

It may not be good at all of those, but that's why it's uu.

Jirachi on the other hand is great at what it does (for the most part), but it most certainly doesn't haven't almost any variety. It will ALWAYS have iron head, and if it is spdef, it will have body slam and it will have etc. If it is scarf, it will have ice punch and it will have u-turn etc. Jirachi is ridiculously one dimensional compared to many other pokes and besides using scarf vs using spdef there is ZERO suprise factor involved.

I find Keldeo to be more A+ than Terrakion. Terrakion has two amazing stabs, which Keldeo cannot boast, as it is easily walled. Terrakion has much better set-up options too, with SD and RP at its disposal, whereas Keldeo only has CM. I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say that other scarfers outspeed them, though. The only significant threats above are Scarf Lati@s and the rare Scarf Gengr. I guess the insignificant Scarf Jolteon too. Terrakion is easily the best set-up sweeper in the tier, and to find safe switch-ins to its Choice Band set you need to go to the lower tiers. Keldeo, on the other hand, is walled or beaten by Celebi, Jellicent, Toxicroak, Tentacruel, Gyarados, Starmie and Lati@s (I might have even missed a few). Keldeo needs a ton of team support to successfully sweep, whereas Terrakion barely needs any, if any at all. Not to mention that Terrakion is a great SR lead with an extremely fast Taunt and the offensive pressure it applies. Fair enough, Terrakion is obliterated by priority, whereas it barely harms Keldeo, but Keldeo's relative unreliabilty means it should be considered for A+ before Terrakion.

Except for scarf (which is outstanding that it /can/ sweep with a scarf), nobody is trying to sweep with keldeo. Set up rain and use hydro pump, see how many pokes want to switch in. Unless the other team has a water immunity (only jellicent is safe really), keldeo will either kill something or it will weaken it enough to make it useless. Plus, the pokemon that do indeed have the ability to take a hydro pump et al. don't really have the abililty to take advantage of the situation. Jellicent: Idk... toxic the switch? Toxicroak: SD maybe, but toxicroak sucks. Celebi: completely unthreatening, it could u-turn, but then it risks the keldeo player predicting this and continue to hpump.

 

[ciaranroy]

It is still easily taken advantage of by the likes of Toxicroak, Jellicent, Ferrothorn and Celebi. But I guess Keldeo does completely annihilate the other weather starters. I also forgot to mention that Terrakion can actually make some use of its ability, so it can set up on CBTar, which also means that it can form a solid offensive core with BP Celebi (although Scizor destroys both).

 

[taxi driver]

Pokemon who should go up to S-rank

Breloom: Breloom is a problem for every team it faces. Guaranteed sleep and setup its sd set destroys stall and the banded low sweep set owns most offensive counters to loom. Just as dangerous if not more then keldeo and landorus.

Jirachi: I see jirachi on almost every team now. Its the most versatile pokemon in ou and imo the best. It can sweep,wall,lure, and revenge kill effectively. Its the one pokemon I get pissed to see on the opponents team

Pokemon who should go down

Terrakion: He used to be s-rank but has fallen, the popularity of of sczior, breloom and landorus-t limit his sweeping sets. His most used set now is the sr lead which just sets up rocks and dies everytime I face it.

Alakazam: Don't know how he's A+ tier, he's like B+

 

[moonbase]

Can we just put weavile in B- and call it a night? Every single point about him has been said already, and I don't want to steal the good poster's mojo.

And btw, since when have we been comparing weavile to gatr? Looking a few pages back. Weavile is a good poke, with some flaws, and can only preform one role (who the hell is going to use the sd set) put it in B- or B just so people will stop bitching about it.

 

[SuperChillarmy]

Guys... saying Jirachi doesn't wall keldeo in rain or Landorus-I and therefore sucks is like saying Skarmory doesn't wall darmanitan or victini and therefore sucks... of course rachi is going to have issues against some special walls... that certainty doesn't make it bad.

 

[Halcyon.]

No one is saying it sucks, we're saying it's not S rank. An S rank wall should beat the two most common Special Attackers...

 

[Vemane]

Guys... saying Jirachi doesn't wall keldeo in rain or Landorus-I and therefore sucks is like saying Skarmory doesn't wall darmanitan or victini and therefore sucks... of course rachi is going to have issues against some special walls... that certainty doesn't make it bad.

The difference is that victini and darmanitan are really rare in ou

Landorus and keldeo (and specstoad, and other rain sweepers) are some of the most common and potent pokes in ou

 

[SuperChillarmy]

Okay, I see your point. However, I still feel like that's not a valid point. Yes, keldeo and landorus are amazing. However, Rachi still walls some special attackers (and even physical attackers) that would wreck OU. For example, latios and tornadus.

if we're talking about walling the premier special attackers, shouldn't Celebi be S rank then?

 

[Vemane]

Okay, I see your point. However, I still feel like that's not a valid point. Yes, keldeo and landorus are amazing. However, Rachi still walls some special attackers (and even physical attackers) that would wreck OU. For example, latios and tornadus.

if we're talking about walling the premier special attackers, shouldn't Celebi be S rank then?

Look, the fact of the matter is that just walling half the tier isn't enough to be spectacular (look at blissey/chansey). This is an offensive metagame, thus the offensive mons are most useful (keldeo, lando, etc.). While defensive pokemon are great to stave off these pokemon, a spdef jirachi or celebi isn't going to wreck a team (or even a pokemon really). They can take hits and put things in check, but they aren't taking an aggressive role that will win the game, they are taking a defensive one that can help prevent the player from losing the game. This is certainly important, but when a ho team of 6 sweepers can do very well, it becomes more clear that while their role is great it is not a neccesity.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I stopped reading when I saw written in the first post that SpD Celebi counters Sub/CM Jirachi.

It does counter it though, as long as it has PerishTurn (and all SpDef Celebi should have PerishTurn).

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Pokemon who should go up to S-rank

Breloom: Breloom is a problem for every team it faces. Guaranteed sleep and setup its sd set destroys stall and the banded low sweep set owns most offensive counters to loom. Just as dangerous if not more then keldeo and landorus.

No. Pokemon who resist both of its STABs are too omnipresent for Breloom to be S-rank. No doubt it's good enough for A-rank, but S-rank is too high. Also, your point on stall is completely wrong as stall teams are likely to carry Celebi, who is the best Breloom counter to ever exist. Even some offensively oriented Pokemon will stop Breloom, including but certainly not limited to Dragonite, Latias, and Volcarona. This means Breloom requires lots of support to pull off a sweep, which basically guarantees its placement in A-rank rather than S-rank.

Jirachi: I see jirachi on almost every team now. Its the most versatile pokemon in ou and imo the best. It can sweep,wall,lure, and revenge kill effectively. Its the one pokemon I get pissed to see on the opponents team

I believe the reasons for Jirachi to not be S-rank have been explained enough already

Pokemon who should go down

Terrakion: He used to be s-rank but has fallen, the popularity of of sczior, breloom and landorus-t limit his sweeping sets. His most used set now is the sr lead which just sets up rocks and dies everytime I face it.

This I do agree with, however. Scizor, Breloom, and Landorus-T are all common and severely limit Terrakion's sweeping potential, and can all check Terrakion regardless of which set it uses. Many other Pokemon can check it depending on what set it runs. A+ would be fine for Terrakion.

Alakazam: Don't know how he's A+ tier, he's like B+

I'm iffy on Alakazam. I can see why he'd be A+ tier, though I wouldn't mind seeing him dropped to A. B+ is a bit of a stretch, though, considering (at least in my opinion) Alakazam is better than most of the Pokemon there (though you can't really compare a good number of them to Alakazam, i.e. Dugtrio)

 

[SuperChillarmy]

You're saying that sp def celebi and jirachi aren't necessary on a HO team. I agree. However, is a keldeo or landorus necessary on stall or even balanced team? no.

Also, Blissey and Chansey can't really be compared to Jirachi due to the fact that you won't see a Blissey U-Turning to a counter or CMing up. Blissey and Chansey always do the same thing, while jirachi has unpredictability.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

The problem with this argument isn't the concept, it's the fact that it's complete bullshit. Jirachi can successfully do maybe 3 roles, and one, in my opinion, is utter trash and another can't stand up to current huge threats (ie. land+boosted water attacks+etc.).

And jack of all trades pokes don't run the same moves all of the time; I haven't a single clue where you got that. Mew for example could do sd with drain punch/sucker punch/sd/zen headbutt. Physically defensive with wow/psychic/taunt/softboiled. Scarf with u-turn/zen headbutt/etc. etc.

It may not be good at all of those, but that's why it's uu.

Jirachi on the other hand is great at what it does (for the most part), but it most certainly doesn't haven't almost any variety. It will ALWAYS have iron head, and if it is spdef, it will have body slam and it will have etc. If it is scarf, it will have ice punch and it will have u-turn etc. Jirachi is ridiculously one dimensional compared to many other pokes and besides using scarf vs using spdef there is ZERO suprise factor involved.



Except for scarf (which is outstanding that it /can/ sweep with a scarf), nobody is trying to sweep with keldeo. Set up rain and use hydro pump, see how many pokes want to switch in. Unless the other team has a water immunity (only jellicent is safe really), keldeo will either kill something or it will weaken it enough to make it useless. Plus, the pokemon that do indeed have the ability to take a hydro pump et al. don't really have the abililty to take advantage of the situation. Jellicent: Idk... toxic the switch? Toxicroak: SD maybe, but toxicroak sucks. Celebi: completely unthreatening, it could u-turn, but then it risks the keldeo player predicting this and continue to hpump.

Are you serious just arguing for the sake of it? Like seriously what the heck is this:
''Jirachi can successfully do maybe 3 roles, and one, in my opinion, is utter trash''. Just because YOU dont like the scarf set doenst make it utter trash when its in fact excellent at what it does. ''It will ALWAYS have iron head'', come on man wtf, have you ever seen sub calm rachi or super rachi using iron head? ''Jirachi is ridiculously one dimensional compared to many other pokes and besides using scarf vs using spdef there is ZERO suprise factor involved.'' You gotta be kidding me. Subcalm, offensive calm mind and mixed are all possibilities too. The surprise factor is huge there. Also i wasnt going to respond to the keldeo post since it wasnt mine but now i feel like it. Jellicent: Idk... toxic the switch? Toxicroak: SD maybe, but toxicroak sucks. Celebi: completely unthreatening, it could u-turn, but then it risks the keldeo player predicting this and continue to hpump. Yes thats what jellicent does, toxic/burn you on the switch. I dont know why you sound so surprised or underwhelmed since thats always how jellicent dealt with keldeo. Also give me a break with this ''toxicroak sucks'' crap. Have you ever used it at all? Its a pain to take down and setups in the face of many threats. Also ''celebi is completely unthreatening''? Do you realize both of celebi stabs hit keldeo for super effective damage? Who the hell would try to u-turn when they could just kill keldeo in 2 hits?