Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[TUO]

I completely agree with Terrakion to A+ Rank: It's walled by mons like Hippowdon, Jellicent can easily come in on most sets and burn, so there are quite a few counters. Checks are very common, with mons like Latios and Starmie outspeeding and OHKOing.
I did nominate this earlier but it got swept away in discussion: Accelgor for C-Rank
As one of the fastest mons available, Accelgor can be a great revenge killer as well as a good offensive spike setter that can easily set up a layer or two.

As someone who wrote the skeleton for the Accelgor analysis, I know it is an extremely niche mon and has a very small niche over other spikers such as Custap Skarm/Forry, which is the ability to beat the two Magic Bouncers while setting up spikes (and Magic Bouncers are super rare in a competitive environment) along with 2HKOing Forry/Donphan and OHKOing Starmie. That sums up its entire niche right there outside of Final Gambit ditch spinblock attempts, and just being fast. Accelgor is extremely easy to play around and it will be forced to use Final Gambit constantly (or end up having to use turns to Yawn>setup spikes as Accelgor is the most predictable lead ever) that barely warrants C-Rank at all as that it has such a small niche to barely even be considered usable in the metagame

On another note: There are some extra Chlorophyll swepers that need to be on this list. Scarfwynaut mentioned Sawsbuck, who imo should be C>D-Rank as it can function as a nice Celebi/Lati@s lure/revenge killer to facilitate a sweep with RP Landorus on sun teams (btw, RP Lando is actually good in sun, benefiting from Celebi's absence and making quick setup of weakened Scalds and sometimes even Surfs) or synergize well with a fellow Chlorophyll sweeper by taking out Heatran with Nature Power. And even with Breloom, Sawsbuck's SD set is still awesome.

Then there are a few other Chlorophyll mons you would want on the list. First there is Shiftry, which I really don't know much about but I heard Gary2346 has used it and can explain his thoughts here. Dark-type seems to really benefit sun now and could be a solid anti-meta force so I would say it wouldn't be too far of a stretch to put it at C>D. But this is just theorymoning on how viable it is. And for something that I know of well and have brought up before Jumpluff for C-Rank. This thing fixes up so many issues of sun teams its amazing. If you could lure a Steel-type (I think SD Jumpluff being the main set started to catch on already, with the combo of my massive usage of it, my RMT and the analysis) it could U-Turn out with the support set and get a free kill off with Duggy, which can start a Venu/Volc sweep at any time, which is 100% possible thanks to Jumpluff's Memento. Overall Jumpluff is an criminally underrated threat and should be C-Rank. One last point for it, with most teams nowadays getting swept by Volcarona outside of Scarf Keldeo, while sun teams struggle with Lati@s and Heatran to an extent, U-Turn Jumpluff/Volcarona/Dugtrio is an excellent anti-metagame force that can stop a sweep of multiple pokemon and be a significant offensive presence of its own.

And to conclude, I believe Moltres needs to go up to C-Rank. With RP Landorus and HP Ice Landorus-T, Scizor, Techniloom (to an extent) being prominent in the metagame, something that can pose a massive threat off of switching in to those mons (or setting up with Agility) is a huge thing for its viability and with Deoxys-Defense banned and people discovering ways to stop some of those hazard leads, Moltres is starting to become a better Pokemon than it used to be.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

I completely agree with moving Cloyster up, just because 80% of its users are morons that doesn't diminish its amazing sweeping potential.

I have been going through that past few months of discussion, and thinking about the current list myself, and here are a few suggestions I have to at the least discuss more:
-Sawsbuck - add to list - D Rank: Sawsbuck is a solid sun sweeper, and while yes it has still competition with other sun sweepers, that doesn't diminish it's power. Plus, even if outclass it makes a great secondary sun sweeper. I honestly don't know why its on this list yet, its still solid despite its flaws.
-Magneton - add to list - D Rank: with a scarf it has certain advantages over scarf-Magnezone, so it certainly has a niche in OU.
-Medicham - add to list - D Rank: Medicham might seem outclassed by other fighting types, but it has some use due to its raw power, Medicham even has a OU analysis.
-Gastrodon - B Rank: this is C rank!? why? Despite its recent falling out in BW2 its still a very solid Pokemon, B- seems fitting.

Sawsbuck should go to C-Rank imo since it can be effective with the correct support. Gastrodon is utter garbage and should stay C-Rank. Its setup fodder for several threats and completely unable to deal with rain teams anymore. Keldeos beats it with secret sword, tornadus hurricane it to oblivion, ferrothorn walks all over it, politoed can just toxic you or encore you in something harmless and send in a setup sweeper, tentacruel can just toxic stall you as well, even rotom-w can just trick you a scarf or burn you with will-o-wisp.

 

[alexwolf]

Sawsbuck should go to C rank, Gastrodon to B-, and Accelgor to D rank. Will add more substance to this post later...

Sawsbuck is an excellent Chlorophyll sweeper, second only to Venusaur. Its fantastic Speed allows it to outspeed everything under sun (even stupid things such as Scarf Starmie), and its good STABs and decent coverage make it a good cleaner and sweeper. Also, unlike Venusaur, it packs a big punch even at +0, as Adamant Double Edge hits about 50% more stronger than Timid Sludge Bomb, Venusaur's stronger move. Not to mention that Sawsbuck is the best revenge killer for sun teams period, as it can revenge kill very problematic Pokemon for sun teams, such as Latias and Volcarona. Its obvious downfalls are the huge priority weakness and vulnerability to Steel-types, but the second issue is somewhat mitigated by the Fire-type partners that Sawsbuck will have. All in all, Sawsbuck is an excellent Pokemon on sun teams that has many advantages over Venusaur that can earn it a spot on many sun teams.

Gastrodon, and when i say Gastrodon i mean physically defensive Gastrodon, the best set to use in this meta, is a good Pokemon at what it does. Name me another Pokemon that can completely wall so many rain threats, such as Scarf Keldeo, Expert Belt Keldeo, every Starmie, every Rotom-W, Nasty Plot-less Thundurus-T, SD Toxicroak (this fucker only does 65.25 - 77.23% at +2 to Gastrodon, while Gastro OHKOes with EQ after one LO round most of the time), any Jirachi, and Jolteon. The list doesn't stop there as Gastrodon check or walls other Pokemon too, such as choiced Polioted, Tyranitar (even CB as long as it is not locked into Crunch), Heatran, Infernape, and Terrakion (+2 Terrakion fails to OHKO with CC unless it has LO, while EQ OHKOes back at -1). Furthermore, Gastrodon is one of the hardest Pokemon to OHKO, meaning it can survive ridiculously strong attacks such as CB Outrage from Dragonite, OHKO back with Ice Beam, and then come back to recover against one of the many Pokemon it completely walls and thanks to its two very useful immunities. Gastrodon is also not easy to switch into, as between EQ, Scald, Ice Beam, and Toxic, you will realize that only some Grass-type can safely switch-into it, the main one being Celebi, which can be easily covered by with teammates. However, Gastrodon has some drawbacks that prevent it from getting higher on the rankings. His pathetic Speed means that he will almost always need to take two hits before getting a chance to do something, which can often be very problematic. Furthermore, Gastrodon is almost dead-weight against sun teams and doesn't do anything spectacular against sand too, leaving it only truly useful against rain teams.

As for Accelgor, it is a super niche Spiker that imo should only be used on HO teams that don't care about hazards being up on their side of the field, as otherwise Froslass makes a better choice. It can also deal with Starmie much better, which is nice too. D-rank is the highest that Accelgor could go, really.

 

[BKC]

"gastrodon is utter garbage"... yeah i laughed. it's more than an anti-rain mon (which it still is good at), namely a thundurus-t and rotom-w counter, among other things. go use it for a while before making idiotic, uninformed statements (like "rotom-w can trick a scarf"... no one good has used scarf rotom-w since the excadrill days).

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

"gastrodon is utter garbage"... yeah i laughed. it's more than an anti-rain mon (which it still is good at), namely a thundurus-t and rotom-w counter, among other things. go use it for a while before making idiotic, uninformed statements (like "rotom-w can trick a scarf"... no one good has used scarf rotom-w since the excadrill days).

If youre going to attack my arguments as uninformed or idiotic try to make a real point then. What other things it does?

 

[Gary]

If youre going to attack my arguments as uninformed or idiotic try to make a real point then. What other things it does?

What other things does it need to be able to do? It's by far one of the greatest counters to most forms of rain offense in OU, Tornadus being the only notable rain mon that it can't really go up against. Scarf Keldeo can't even 2HKO physically defensive variants with Secret Sword (which are becoming more popular), and Specs Keldeo has a chance at even failing to 2HKO without Stealth Rock. The biggest thing going for Gastrodon is its ability to switch into pretty much any attack that rain can throw at it bar Hurricane, and retaliate with Toxic, Recover off damage, or even retaliate if it gets a +1 boost from Water attacks. Gastrodon isn't really setup fodder against sweepers because it just slaps them in the face with Toxic. Gastrodon is also great to have on Sand teams because it can come in on Water and Ice attacks, fearing only Grass Knot and Bullet Seed from Breloom. Basically, Gastrodon is one of OU's best answers to weather in general, and Gastrodon can give any weather team hell if they don't pack a solid answer to it. Is Gastro amazing? No, of course not, but weather counters are very sought out for in this metagame, and Gastrodon is one of, if not the best. A Pokemon doesn't need to have an extreme offensive presence or wall everything in the metagame to be good, they just need to have a well defined niche that allows them to be used for a specific purpose to help your team. If your team despises rain, Gastrodon shuts down pretty much everything rain can throw at it.

So yeah, you're very wrong in saying that Gastrodon is utter garbage. It has much more of a defined niche in OU then most of the C-tier mons, and even B-. I feel like alexwolf did the best job at describing Gastro's niche anyway, so why don't you read that?

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

What other things does it need to be able to do? It's by far one of the greatest counters to most forms of rain offense in OU, Tornadus being the only notable rain mon that it can't really go up against. Scarf Keldeo can't even 2HKO physically defensive variants with Secret Sword (which are becoming more popular), and Specs Keldeo has a chance at even failing to 2HKO without Stealth Rock. The biggest thing going for Gastrodon is its ability to switch into pretty much any attack that rain can throw at it bar Hurricane, and retaliate with Toxic, Recover off damage, or even retaliate if it gets a +1 boost from Water attacks. Gastrodon isn't really setup fodder against sweepers because it just slaps them in the face with Toxic. Gastrodon is also great to have on Sand teams because it can come in on Water and Ice attacks, fearing only Grass Knot and Bullet Seed from Breloom. Basically, Gastrodon is one of OU's best answers to weather in general, and Gastrodon can give any weather team hell if they don't pack a solid answer to it. Is Gastro amazing? No, of course not, but weather counters are very sought out for in this metagame, and Gastrodon is one of, if not the best.

So yeah, you're very wrong in saying that Gastrodon sucks in OU.

One of the best answers to weather, except that ferrothorn is the most common politoed partner and walks all over gastrodon, sun teams have venusaur which doesnt require explanation, sand teams have shit like sub toxic gliscor or sd garchomp. And if you actually think toxic is stopping dnite, sub dd gyarados, subcalm jirachi or pretty much any setup sweeper from doing their jobs think again. The ones that require multiple setups have ways to avoid toxic and the ones that dont will not worry about it too much.

Gastrodon, and when i say Gastrodon i mean physically defensive Gastrodon, the best set to use in this meta, is a good Pokemon at what it does. Name me another Pokemon that can completely wall so many rain threats, such as Scarf Keldeo, Expert Belt Keldeo, every Starmie, every Rotom-W, Nasty Plot-less Thundurus-T, SD Toxicroak (this fucker only does 65.25 - 77.23% at +2 to Gastrodon, while Gastro OHKOes with EQ after one LO round most of the time), any Jirachi, and Jolteon. The list doesn't stop there as Gastrodon check or walls other Pokemon too, such as choiced Polioted, Tyranitar (even CB as long as it is not locked into Crunch), Heatran, Infernape, and Terrakion (+2 Terrakion fails to OHKO with CC unless it has LO, while EQ OHKOes back at -1). Furthermore, Gastrodon is one of the hardest Pokemon to OHKO, meaning it can survive ridiculously strong attacks such as CB Outrage from Dragonite, OHKO back with Ice Beam, and then come back to recover against one of the many Pokemon it completely walls and thanks to its two very useful immunities. Gastrodon is also not easy to switch into, as between EQ, Scald, Ice Beam, and Toxic, you will realize that only some Grass-type can safely switch-into it, the main one being Celebi, which can be easily covered by with teammates. However, Gastrodon has some drawbacks that prevent it from getting higher on the rankings. His pathetic Speed means that he will almost always need to take two hits before getting a chance to do something, which can often be very problematic. Furthermore, Gastrodon is almost dead-weight against sun teams and doesn't do anything spectacular against sand too, leaving it only truly useful against rain teams.

Great. Go with the physically defensive set:
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gastrodon: 218-257 (51.17 - 60.32%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
One point down for it.
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 199-235 (46.71 - 55.16%) -- 13.67% chance to 2HKO
Yes its clearly a reliable infernape check.
Also your arguments about dealing with terrakion and dnite are pointless. Multiscale ensures ice beam wont ohko dnite and while sure you can beat terrakion 1 vs 1 your gastro will be crippled and will be easily taken out in the next turn. Yes gastrodon is hard to ohko but 2hko is not hard at all. This is definitely not the definition of a good wall. At the end what gastro has over celebi or latias? Sure it walls starmie and idk heatran but that simply inst enough reason to justify using it over superior special walls specially when said special walls are capable of handling bigger threats like landorus or breloom while still handling most of the stuff gastrodon handles already. Thats why i feel gastrodon should stay in c-rank as a niche and outclassed wall.

 

[Soul Fly]

I don't know about you guys, but Gastrodon is a pretty fair pokemon nowadays in the meta, fits quite easily in sand and weatherless teams as a rain counter and I don't know if it's very apparent but it lends itself very well to defensive cores in this meta, thanks to the steady rise Keldeo and Tornadus-I have seen over the past few months. Not to mention it can pretty much fuck over Jirachi (especially CM variants) and Jolteon.


And oh can we already move Conkeldurr to B rank?
The Sheer Force set has been revolutionary, pretty awesome how it fucks over the entire top 20 (bar 1v1 breloom maybe) with fantastic SE + STAB coverage along with pseudo bolt-beam and hits... HARD. Coupled with the fact that you're forcing people to play mind games not burning it in fear of a Guts set.

 

[PK Gaming]

Ok

Terrakion down from S-rank ==> A+ rank
Conkeldurr up from C-rank ==> B- rank
Gastrodon up from C-rank ==> B- rank
Cloyster up from C-rank ==> B- rank
Sawsbuck added to C rank
Accelgor added to D-rank
Moltres up from D-rank ==> C-rank

 

[Sam]

I feel like B rank is a little too high for Bronzong. It has good typing and ability, but it's lack of reliable recovery and poor offensive stats means that it gets worn down pretty easily. Strong neutral attacks generally take out a good chunk of it's health, and it doesn't matter if it only gets 2HKO/3HKO'd as it can't really do anything back to most offensive threats. It still has it's merits as there are a few threats which it can usually shut down, but for the most part I just don't find it that useful. Maybe B- or C.

 

[Ehrmantraut]

why is dugtrio at B+ rank while all the other small niche pokemon are sitting at low C or D? dugtrio should be way lower. lack of raw power and pathetic frailness make it nothing better than a weather war tool

 

[Halcyon.]

Being a weather war tool is probably the best type of small niche you could have. Dugtrio is great for sun teams wanting to trap Tyranitar, Terrakion, and Heatran, which all give it a ton of trouble. It's also great when paired with Tornadus on rain teams since it can eliminate pesky Jirachi, as well as being able to take out the opposing weather starters. Dugtrio is extremely useful for weather teams, and I think it definitely deserves its current ranking.

 

[Ehrmantraut]

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 258-306 (79.62 - 94.44%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Jirachi: 216-254 (53.46 - 62.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 218-258 (53.96 - 63.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Thing is, if you see dugtrio a team, the first thing that comes to mind is going to be, put rocks up right away. with rocks up, Dugtrio can't sash-reversal things and has to use EQ, which doesn't even OHKO the things you just mentioned apart from heatran.

also the majority of things in the b-rankings have a bit of versality while dugtrio can only do 1 thing, and lacks the stats to do anything else. it's a narrow niche, not b+ rank in my eyes. i'd give it b- rank at the most.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Dugtrio's niche is extremely useful in the OU meta, most Pokemon in C tier require a lot of team support to work for their niche, Dugtrio can just be slapped on any sun team really and it works great. I agree with Halclyon, it definitely is B rank, although I wouldn't mind dropping it from B+ to B though.

 

[Pocket]

Well SR is often seen on Tyranitar, so you can simply switch to Dugtrio as it sets up Stealth Rock. Even if it decides to attack, that would only break the sash and allow Dugtrio to KO TTar with Reversal. Sun teams usually have ways to prevent Rock from going or staying up anyways. Even if SR does break its sash, Dugtrio will severely cripple Tyranitar before it bites the dust, which already puts the Sun player a big lead in the weather war. Not to mention you can always use Sub Trio to ensure the kill on Tyranitar without relying on Focus Sash.

Heatran (without Scarf or Flare Drive) can be revenged by Dugtrio with or without Sash. The biggest priority is usually popping Tran's Air Balloon before trapping it.

Dugtrio only needs Sash when facing Scarf Terrakion. Otherwise Dugtrio can easily KO after a defense fall from Close Combat. If it's a Sash SR Terrakion, then Dugtrio can simply take out Terrakion before Terrakion can break its Sash with SR.

Basically, Dugtrio gets the job done with great efficiency

 

[Poplolita]

I would like to bump Vaporeon nomination to B- rank. I just don't feel we had a discussion about it's role in the ou environment at the same lvl as cloyster and Conkeldurr yet.

 

[Lavos]

dugtrio sucks overall but it does exactly as much as it needs to do for sun teams to transform from a mild annoyance into a menacing threat by actually forcing you to play around the possibility of dugtrio switching in and trapping your tyranitar, terrakion, what have you. yes it does serve a "niche role" but that role is so unbelievably integral to the success of sun teams that its placement in b+ is completely justifiable.

and yeah like pocket said sun teams ALWAYS have ways of keeping rocks off the field, the most common ones are forretress/xatu but i've also seen espeon, starmie, donphan, tentacruel, even claydol...point being the 2 main priorities for sun are 1) keep rocks off and 2) win the weather war. once a sun team has achieved those 2 things it's usually gg

 

[Halcyon.]

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 258-306 (79.62 - 94.44%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Jirachi: 216-254 (53.46 - 62.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 218-258 (53.96 - 63.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Thing is, if you see dugtrio a team, the first thing that comes to mind is going to be, put rocks up right away. with rocks up, Dugtrio can't sash-reversal things and has to use EQ, which doesn't even OHKO the things you just mentioned apart from heatran.

also the majority of things in the b-rankings have a bit of versality while dugtrio can only do 1 thing, and lacks the stats to do anything else. it's a narrow niche, not b+ rank in my eyes. i'd give it b- rank at the most.

What are the teams I just mentioned that use Dugtrio? Oh yeah, sun and Tornadus-rain teams. Both of those team style already put a lot of effort into making sure Stealth Rock isn't up by using spinners and even Magic Bounce users. Tentacruel can spin against anything in the rain, since it beats all Ghosts save Gengar with Thunder (and Sub Disable if it's only running Scald). I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Dugtrio can keep its sash up and KO those things you mentioned. And even IF Dugtrio doesn't OHKO the thing you trapped, lets say Tyranitar, well you just had to take more than half of your health, which means you can no longer trap Lati@s, which is huge. Terrakion will die to any other hit at all, Jirachi has to Wish to not get 2HKOd by Tornadus now, and Ninetales also took a huge, which it can't afford since it's so frail anyway. Again, this is all IF you lose your sash.

 

[Gary]

I would like to bump Vaporeon nomination to B- rank. I just don't feel we had a discussion about it's role in the ou environment at the same lvl as cloyster and Conkeldurr yet.

I wouldn't nominate a Pokemon unless you have solid reasoning to back up your nomination. By just saying, Vaporeon should be B- rank, it isn't going to help anything. If you think Vaporeon deserves B-, then explain to us why.

 

[Poplolita]

I wouldn't nominate a Pokemon unless you have solid reasoning to back up your nomination. By just saying, Vaporeon should be B- rank, it isn't going to help anything. If you think Vaporeon deserves B-, then explain to us why.

I did. And you are the only one who responded, and I thank you for that. I just want to remind people that I nominated vaporeon in B- page 129. I don't think one response is enough.

 

[Halcyon.]

I think vaporeon is better than people give it credit for, but I also think that it's extremely rain dependent, and I think there are better Pokémon to use (Jellicent/Tentacruel) if you're not using a Hydration set. That being said, it's LO Hydration set is definitely underrated, and can actually be really funny to use since no one expects it. I don't have any strong feelings about where it belongs, but I think C fits it fine. It can be good sometimes, but not enough for B, I think. Still, I'm not completely opposed to raising it.

 

[Mr Omgness]

Hmm I have to say Vaporeon is overlooked too fast as a supporting poke on Sun teams. Sun teams tend to have defensive mons that lack reliable recovery (Ninetales, Heatran, Donphan,...). On top of that it is a good check to opposing rain teams as well.

I used a Water Absorb WishPass set on a sun team to great success a while ago, it really helps keeping Ninetales alive to win the weather war and Donphan to keep hazards away.

 

[UltiMario]

-Medicham - add to list - D Rank: Medicham might seem outclassed by other fighting types, but it has some use due to its raw power, Medicham even has a OU analysis.

As the guy who got the non-choice set on the analysis back in BW1 (which was honestly better than the Scarf set in the BW1 meta but for some reason they put Scarf first anyways), I can assure you Medicham doesn't even deserve to be on this list. In terms of being a raw power attacker, it's outclassed at Kyu-B at every turn, and other Fighting types do the whole "be a fighting type" thing better. It used to work because of the nature of the metagame, and how team structure used to look. Now all those factors have changed, and Medicham simply has no spot in the metagame.

I'd support removing the analysis more than putting Medicham on the list TBH. It was a BW1 analysis and would need a BW2 update if it was actually viable, and it isn't.

 

[Jukain]

On Vaporeon, I think it's too outclassed to get much done in this metagame. As a wall, it faces competition with Jellicent and even Slowbro / Slowking. Honestly it just dies way too easily. So many threats can muscle past it.

That being said, the LO Hydration set can be deadly if played correctly. For this reason, I think Vaporeon is a solid C rank but nothing more.

 

[Soul Fly]

On Vaporeon, I think it's too outclassed to get much done in this metagame. As a wall, it faces competition with Jellicent and even Slowbro / Slowking. Honestly it just dies way too easily. So many threats can muscle past it.

That being said, the LO Hydration set can be deadly if played correctly. For this reason, I think Vaporeon is a solid C rank but nothing more.

Well it's about the only bulky water in OU with WishPass. Which is an incredible niche to have along with Hydration.