The RU Viability Ranking Thread

[Molk]

o_k, i guess i'll make some updates now.

Moved Moltres down from low S rank ----> top A rank

Moved Magneton up from low B rank ----> top B rank

Removed Sawk from untested

Added Dragonair to low B rank

Added Shelgon to low C rank

Pokemon in need of more discussion:

Dragonair
Shelgon
Fraxure
Seaking
Snover
Arbok

Nice to see Magneton getting some more love :] (but not at the same time because it can be a real pain tbh :[).

Anyways, i'm not really sure where to place the dragons at the moment, theres been a little bit of controvery over where Fraxure should be placed although the discussion seems to be leaning a little bit towards keeping it in B rank. I added Shelgon to the ranks where Oglemi proposed them, but idk, i kinda think that Shelgon should go a little bit higher than low C rank, it looks pretty good on paper and i think it could have the potential to even go up to where i've placed Dragonair now (It can actually run the same set Oglemi posted for Dragonair, which looks pretty interesting). I dont really have much experience with either of them in this meta though, so i'll just place them where they were proposed until they're discussed more and/or i have some more experience with them.

As for Seaking: it looks pretty interesting, although i'm not sure if its positive traits will be enough to push into B rank. Of course Lightningrod is pretty cool, and lets seaking be a pretty decent check to most of the Electric-types in the tier now that it has an immunity to their attacks instead of a weakness while resisting their coverage moves, but it really doesn't seem to have that much going for it otherwise. Outside of its decent Attack and Hp stats, Seaking's stats are pretty mediocre overall, with other Water-types such as Kabutops, Feraligatr, and Samurott having much better stats overall and access to moves Seaking wished it could use possessed such as Swords Dance. completely overshadowing it as a Water-type outside of Lightningrod, Seaking can't even seperate itself with Megahorn, as Samurott learns the move as well and has a higher Attack stat to use it with. Overall, while Seaking does have a pretty decent niche in Lightningrod, i don't think that niche is enough to justify placing it in B rank, low C rank/D rank seems more appropriate to me if anywhere at all. Although i'd be open to placing it higher if you guys think it deserves it, Like Dragonair and Shelgon, i'll be sure to test it out over the course of the next few days to see how it does!

btw, kaonohiokala, would you happen to have any logs of seaking? i'm really curious :o

 

[kaonohiokala]

btw, kaonohiokala, would you happen to have any logs of seaking? i'm really curious :o

Seaking beats half the opponents team here: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ru-30566700

Another guy using Seaking:
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ru-30376947

 

[Punchshroom]

As for Seaking: it looks pretty interesting, although i'm not sure if its positive traits will be enough to push into B rank. Of course Lightningrod is pretty cool, and lets seaking be a pretty decent check to most of the Electric-types in the tier now that it has an immunity to their attacks instead of a weakness while resisting their coverage moves, but it really doesn't seem to have that much going for it otherwise. Outside of its decent Attack and Hp stats, Seaking's stats are pretty mediocre overall, with other Water-types such as Kabutops, Feraligatr, and Samurott having much better stats overall and access to moves Seaking wished it could use possessed such as Swords Dance. completely overshadowing it as a Water-type outside of Lightningrod, Seaking can't even seperate itself with Megahorn, as Samurott learns the move as well and has a higher Attack stat to use it with. Overall, while Seaking does have a pretty decent niche in Lightningrod, i don't think that niche is enough to justify placing it in B rank, low C rank/D rank seems more appropriate to me. Although i'd be open to placing it higher if you guys think it deserves it, Like Dragonair and Shelgon, i'll be sure to test it out over the course of the next few days to see how it does.

Yeah how about no

Alright I'll elaborate: Seaking is hardly even considered a remote threat in NU (where Electric-types such as Raichu, Eelektross, Rotom-Fan & Fridge, Electabuzz, Zebstrika, Electrode, Luxray and more reside), much less RU. The fact of the matter is that Seaking's stats are just really mediocre, to the point where it actually needs the Lightningrod boost just to start raising some eyebrows. Most of the Electric-types in RU can all deal with Seaking in some way: Mow-tom and Galvantula have Grass moves that own Seaking, while Rotom-N can Shadow Ball and, alongside Lanturn, can burn Seaking to weaken it / render it useless, even Electivire can beat down Seaking with brute force alone, and when Electivire can outmuscle something with neutral moves you know that something isn't that good (at all). The only Electrics that are walled by Seaking are Manectric and Magneton, and the former may carry HP Grass for Rhydon and whatnot.

The replays shown were hardly good examples: The first opponent switched in Galvantula into LO Waterfall then got his Licklicky critted on the switch. Otherwise, Galvantula could've gone for Giga Drain while Licki could've Body Slammed / Power Whipped / blow itself up :P. The next opponent just didn't know better. I mean what happens if Seaking doesn't get the boost, or what of its moveset? Running pure physical just gives you an immunity to Electric, nothing more; running pure special leaves you horribly weak without a Lightningrod boost; mixed sets suffer from not having all out power due to split offenses. The stats hold Seaking back soooo much: its power is hardly threatening generally, it doesn't have the bulk to survive 2HKOs from most neutral hits, and its speed is hilariously average. Really, if Seaking had better stats, then its movepool, which contains moves like Drill Run and Megahorn, can actually be put to use, but as it stands, not 2HKOing physical wall Tangrowth with Adamant LO Megahorn after Leftovers or not 2HKOing Qwilfish after Intimidate with the same Seaking's Drill Run at all (252Atk Life Orb -1*Seaking*(+Atk)*Drill Run*vs 252HP/252Def*Qwilfish*(+Def): 34% - 40% (114 - 134 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.) is just a testament to its mediocrity.

The opponent would have to be a noob to be unaware of Lightningrod for Seaking to work, because otherwise I'm stuck with a totally inferior Samurott. Next.

 

[Nozzle]

P much what Punchshroom said.
It's really easy to wall and it's coverage is just too lacking or weak or inaccurate.
It's really slow for a Pokemon thats so frail too.
It's also really bad as an electric checks since all electrics have other coverage.
Let me give some examples.

Manectric runs HP Grass.
Galvantula runs Giga Drain.
Rotom-C lol.
Electivire runs HP grass.
Rotom has enough bulk, Pain Split and Shadow Ball.
Lanturn has Scald and it HATES burn.
It sorta checks Rotom-F but Blizzard 3HKO's i believe. Oh did i mention that its immune to Drill run?
Oh i guess it counters Magneton. But it's slower than it lol.
Thats ONE mon it counters. Not useful IMO


Bottom E-Rank

Seaking approves

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Yeah tbh Seaking is hardly viable in RU, since it's basically a worse version of Feraligatr and Samurott, who have a higher Attack stat and also have a boosting move in SD. Being immune to Electric doesn't help, since most of them have a Grass-type move, and Seaking is weak, frail, and slow. Seaking is a poor check to Electric-types as a result, and mostly, if you want a check to Electric-types, you should probably be using Electivire (who isn't even that great, lol) or Manectric. They can actually take advantage of the immunity to Electric and use it to their own benefit. Seaking is weak to make use of Lrod.

I don't think Seaking should be on the list.

 

[Molk]

o_k then, i won't be adding seaking to the list. I really overestimated just how useful lightningrod would be, i gave it a try and it was pretty underwhelming tbh :/.

might edit this post with some more proposals etc later

EDIT: after a small discussion i decided to move dragonair down to mid C rank for now

 

[DittoCrow]

Nomming Scyther for mid C Rank. Scyther struggles to do well in the metagame because of its typing, and it is either too weak or too slow; it can't really have bulk and Speed/Attack at the same time. It struggles against defensive teams, and offensive teams will be able to threaten it with powerful attacks and revenge kill it with Rotom-C or Emboar. I never really consider Scyther as an option for any teams besides VoltTurn, as I'd much rather use a different Pokemon altogether. Scyther doesn't really bring anything to the team in my opinion. If I want U-turn or Flying or Bug STAB, I will almost always pick something else. I think that Scyther should be NU because of how ineffective it is, though it does get some opportunities to sweep, just not that often.

 

[Molk]

I actually wanted to post this before but i didnt want to double post ;-;.

Nominating Aggron for A rank

Aggron was placed in B rank during the Nidoqueen meta because of the faster nature of the meta, which made it harder for Aggron to switch in and use its powerful Head Smash, and the presence of Nidoqueen in the tier, who gave it a bit of competition as a wallbreaker and could even soak up a Head Smash when needed. Now that the Nidoqueen meta is past us, i think Aggron's improved quite a bit, and with defensive cores popping up more and more, a Pokemon that can easily break through the majority of defensive Pokemon simply by clicking one move is that much more valuable. In fact, i've often found that if the opponent doesn't have a dedicated counter to Aggron such as Poliwrath or Steelix to an extent (even tangrowth and alomomola can't counter it :/) Aggron basically gets a free KO every time it switches in safely, and because of Aggron's Steel-type and massive base 180 defense, it isnt too hard to get it into the match despite its 4x weaknesses to Earthquake and Fighting-type moves. Examples of common Pokemon Aggron has no trouble switching in on include Cinccino, Escavalier, Druddigon locked into Outrage, Kabutops lacking Aqua Jet, and offensive Spiritomb. Aggron gets plenty of other opportunities to switch in too! such as against Choiced Pokemon locked into undesirable moves, such as CB Entei locked into ExtremeSpeed but these don't pop up as often. Of course Aggron still has its flaws, such as those crippling 4x weaknesses to Fighting and Ground, and a low Speed stat (although this can be remedied by Rock Polish), but i think the recent metagame shifts have made Aggron quite a bit better, and i think low A rank would fit it well

 

[EonX]

Inclined to agree with Molk on Aggron. It's typing leaves a bit to be desired defensively, but I feel that it's the best offensive Rock-type in the current meta. Despite 4x weaknesses to Fighting and Ground, Aggron still has solid resistances to Bug, Rock, Flying, and best of all, Dragon. Head Smash just brutalizes anything without a resist (and even some resists) It's decently versatile with CB and Rock Polish sets that do different things. If you don't carry something like Poliwrath, Steelix, or Golurk, then something is going down to Head Smash every time Aggron comes in safely. It still has some issues (aforementioned typing and low Speed without a boost) but low A rank seems about right. You need to be prepared for it and have a way (or ways!) of exploiting its flaws. Otherwise, you're losing a mon every time Aggron safely comes in.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Lol I actually made this nomination a long time ago, I'll just requote 'cause I'm lazy.

I'd also like to nominate Aggron for A-Rank. Yeah. Aggron is arguably one of the most lethal Pokemon in the RU tier. That Rock head CB Head Smash coming off of that spiky head brings a whole lot of pain to the whole tier. And since Aggron is so heavy, a CB Heavy Slam can hurt those that resist Head Smash. Even with those weaknesses, the sheer power behind Aggron simply cannot be overlooked. Also, if you really want to, Aggron can fill a utility role with Stealth Rock and Sturdy. Aggron's qualities make it more or less an A-Rank imo.

Aggron for A-Rank!

Aggron is obscenely powerful, in a nutshell. It is one of the scariest hard hitters in RU thanks to its raw power, and only Steelix can legitimately live anything from it. Aggron is just so powerful and is one of the tier's best wallbreakers.

Aggron for A-Rank!

On regards to Scyther, I'm torn. Scyther can sweep, but Bulky SD Scyther has done pretty well for me when I've used it, since it's quite bulky enough to take even super effective hits and retaliate properly with Aerial Ace or U-turn, and can set up pretty well thanks to its bulk. That said, it's SR weakness is rather crippling, and it does have lacking coverage. I don't know really, I could see this thing in Low B or maybe C, I'm not incredibly sure.

I might nominate something later but I don't remember what it was.

 

[Mack the Knife]

I agree on Aggron. That Choice Band Head Smash is ridiculous.

 

[Nozzle]

I also have had success with Bulky SD Scyther which i have swept quite of a couple of times with and not that uncommonly i managed to get more than 1 swords dance under it's belt. If your opponent sees you have a Scyther on your team he needs to play cautiously with his Steelix/Moltres/Fast Electric and such which you can exploit with ease with the rest of your team. Dat SR though :(

Low-B Rank

I want to nominate Zangoose for Mid-B Rank or maybe high B. It's still very powerful and has nice coverage but it's speed plus frailty is a big letdown for it. The meta is pretty fast right now and it's speed tier just doesn't cut it anymore which makes it very hard to sweep with. And it's quick attack isnt as strong as you want it to be. It is a nice wallbreaker though.



Aggreeing with A rank for Aggron. (I am terrible at puns)


Gorebyss for D-rank.

Stats / Gorebyss / Omastar
HP / 55 / 70
Attack / 84 / 60
Defense / 105 / 125
Special Attack / 114 / 115
Special Defense / 75 / 70
Speed / 52 / 55
Base stat total / 485 / 495

This thing is just totally outclassed by Omastar except for the fact that it isn't 4x weak to grass but just 2x weak. This means nothing as you shouldn't set up either of them on a Mon with a Grass move. Eh, i guess it isnt ground weak and resists water but that definitely isn't worth it over the advantages of Omastar 99/100.

OU: i guess
UU: okay
NU: SURE
RU: NO

RU is the only tier gorebyss doesnt fare in

 

[Molk]

As someone who uses Zangoose quite a bit, i really dont think Zangoose should be moved down to mid B rank. Sure, Zangoose's fraility and the fact that its on a timer can get in the way occasionally, but man, the pure raw power is definitely worth it, especially with the ability to freely switch moves unlike other Pokemon with similar amounts of power, who have to rely on a Choice Item to do that kind of damage. Also, i really wouldn't call Zangoose too slow for the metagame to be honest (its definitely pretty fast for something with its level of damage output), base 90 Speed is perfectly fine in my opinion, and you outpace the vast majority of the unboosted tier regardless, including the important base 80 benchmark where quite a few common offensive RU Pokemon reside, such as Kabutops, Gallade, Medicham, and Mesprit. Furthermore, i actually think the RU meta isn't as fast paced as it was during the Nidoqueen metagame, where offense kinda ran rampant. Without the threat of Nidoqueen, slower, bulkier teams with things such as Slowking, Amoonguss, Druddigon, and Poliwrath, are starting to pop up much more often: the exact kind of team Zangoose does best against. Lastly, while sometimes i really wish Zangoose had ExtremeSpeed, i wouldn't say Zangoose's Quick Attack is unacceptably weak, in fact, Jolly Toxic Boost Zangoose's Quick Attack is actually a bit stronger than adamant LO Kabutops's Aqua Jet, i wouldn't say thats weak for a priority move at all. All in all, while Zangoose does have its flaws, i think its Sheer damage output and ability to switch moves unlike Pokemon with similar amounts of power are enough to keep it in low A rank.

 

[Magcargo]

Remove Munchlax off the list since it dropped to NU and doesn't have any significant usage currently.

Kabutops should move UP to Low S-Rank. Apart from dusknoir (who still has a chance of being 2HKO'd), there isn't a single spinblocker who can spinblock against kabutops. Because of kabutops's Rapid spinning capabilities, several pokemon like moltres and braviary can come in the battle with no cost. Apart from being an amazing rapid spin user, kabutops is also an amazing wallbreaker and revenge killer. For example, tangrowth has a chance of getting OHKO'd by a +2 Stone Edge after 3 layers of spikes and SR. Even Steelix has a chance of getting OHKO'd by a +2 waterfall (though it rarely has room for this on the swords dance set) after a layer of spikes. Thanks to aqua jet, Kabutops can clean weakened teams up later in the game. Overal, I would say that kabutops is good enough for low S-Rank in the current metagame.

 

[Hakumen]

I agree with Scyther being in mid C-rank. It has to choose between having Power/Speed or Bulk, it can't have both. It can't do well against Defensive teams(it is easily wall by things like Steelix) and against Offense is easily revenge kill by Emboar and Rotom-C, argulably the two best scarfers. Moreover, it is quite hard to fit into a teams, it is outclassed by other bug-types and flying-types and takes 50% on SR. It only really works well on VoltTurn.

I also agree for Aggron. With Nidoqueen leaving the tier, it gots better. It is one of the scariest Pokemon to face and one of the best WallBreaker. Its Head Smash is really powerful, 2HKOing even Alomomola and Tangrowth, something really rare for a physical sweeper while its second STAB, Heavy Slam lets it to hit things that resists to Head Smash like Rhydon and is also powerful. Also, unlike what most people think, Steelix isn't a reliable counter as it gets 2HKO by Low Kick after Spikes so its only reliable counter is Poliwrath. Despite its typing gives 4x weaknesses to Fighting and Ground, its excellent bulk and as well resistances to Bug, Rock, Flying and Dragon allows Aggron to set-up on things like Ferrosee, Entei locked into ExtremeSpeed, Aqua Jet Kabutops and cinncino. So I think it is definitly a low A-rank despite its flaws(mostly its common weaknesses and Speed).

I also agree with Zangoose being in low A-rank. It is extremly powerful without having to use a Choice item, being even more powerful than Adamant Medicham and Choice Band Druddigon, it can even 2HKO Tangrowth. Its speed while not being excellent is still great, allowing it to outspeed mostly base 80s like Kabutops, Gallade and Mesprit.
So, I think Zangoose deserves low A-rank despite its flaws named its fraility and so the fact that it can't easily come.

I think Samurott deserves Top B-Rank. It is without a doubt one of the best mixed attacker in the tier. I ran it a lot and it is really great. Against Stall, it has an incredibly good match-up as it can 2HKO anything with the right support(i.e SR and Spikes) if it runs the right move and with predictions. Moreover, the fact that it can lure things like Slowking, Roselia and Qwilfish(yeah, it is 2HKOed by Hydro Pump after SR) is always something great. Against Offense, its match-up isn't as good but still great. Its Speed, while not being great is still enough to outspeed base 80s such as Adamant Kabutops(despite it is less common these days), Adamant Gallade and Modest Mesprit and its offensive stats allows it to be really scary especially when you have a powerful Aqua Jet.
So, I think, despite its flaws(Not THAT good Speed, not THAT great Offensive STATS and the fact that it suffers from 4mms) Samurott deserves Top B-rank.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Yeah, as Magcargo 2 said, E-Rank should be removed, and if you really wish to keep Munchlax it would be D. Munchlax doesn't get used much at all, as said, and it is also noteworthy that in the words of PK Gaming, the creator of the idea of Viability Threads:

E-tier has been removed. It was always kind of a novelty rank anyway.

Yeah, according to him, E-Rank is a joke in the first place, so with Munchlax dropping combined with the fact that E is a novelty rank, there's really no reason to keep it.

I don't really know about Kabutops. It's definitely the tier's best spinner but I'm not sure if I would call it one of the best Pokemon overall. It's a great spinner that can beat every spinblocker bar Dusknoir, who doesn't do well in RU as it is, and can sweep teams, but it's also prepared for somewhat easily with the rise of Poliwrath and Sceptile. I'm not sure.

Samurott should be Top B imo, since it's an amazing mixed attacker. It only needs hazard support to succeed, and it can hit hard and also has great coverage; with a hard hitting STAB in Hydro Pump making it hard to take a hit from, while it has Ice Beam to nail Druddigon, Lilligant, and Sceptile, while HP Grass nails Lanturn and Poliwrath. Its usable 100 Attack also allows it to run a physical move like Megahorn to hit Slowking hard or Superpower for Clefable and Ferroseed. It's an awesome wallbreaker. There is also another iteration of Gatr Time, as you could also go for ROTT TIME, setting up SD and hitting hard, while Megahorn is a great thing in Samurott's favor, meaning it can hit Tangrowth and Slowking hard. It's definitely a great mon, Top B imo.

Zangoose should stay in Low A-Rank for all the reasons stated above.

 

[EonX]

Kind of on the fence about Kabutops. While it is the best spinblocker in the tier and one of the better physical attackers as well, it generally has to pick one or the other. If it chooses to spin, it has to give up the power of Waterfall or the priority of Aqua Jet (the former is usually given up) while it has to give up Rapid Spin to try and sweep as it will need both Waterfall and Aqua Jet. It's cool for sure, but with stuff like Poliwrath, Rotom-C, and Sceptile running around with regularity, I feel it's pretty well prepared for.

As for Samurott, I highly support a move up to Top B-rank. Its Mixed Attacker set just shits on so many defensive Pokemon. Yeah, even Qwilfish is 2HKOed by LO Hydro Pump. Defensive teams just crumble against Rott's great coverage while offensive teams have one hell of a time trying to switch into the set since it pummels most resists pretty hard with Hydro Pump. A lot of times, I just find myself clicking Hydro Pump against offensive teams since even most resists can only take one hit before getting KOed. Its SD set is a bit harder to pull off with Qwilfish and Poliwrath around to wall it to hell, but it does have Megahorn to break Slowking, Tangrowth, and friends. Even Alomomola doesn't like the prospect of dealing with SD Rott since Megahorn does a buttload after a boost or two. However, I would like to bring up another point about it (mainly its Mixed Attacker set) It may not have the greatest bulk as a Water-type, but it is one of the few that commonly runs Ice Beam. And when you run Ice Beam, guess what you can usually do? Learn Blizzard. Yeah, I'm talking about Samurott in Hail. Not the most conventional idea and it does have its drawbacks, but because Samurott has such an easy time wearing down and KOing Steels and bulky Waters, Samurott can be a neat offensive Water-type for a Hail team as well.

 

[Molk]

Alright, i've updated the ranks!

Aggron up from top B rank -----> low A rank

Added Gorebyss to mid D rank

Munchlax and E rank removed from the ranks entirely

Samurott up from mid B rank -----> top B rank

Pokemon in need of more discussion:

Scyther
Kabutops

I'll probably update this post with opinions on Scyther and Kabutops later, i've used Kabutops quite a bit, but i really don't have much experience with Scyther, so i'll have to test it out first.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

I would like to nominate Hitmonchan up to High C. Maybe higher but I doubt it lol

Hitmonchan has improved a slight bit imo over the past while. Mach Punch is a very good priority move at the moment, and when boosted Iron Fist and a Life Orb, its one of the stronger priority moves in the tier. It also has a fairly healthy movepool consisting of Ice Punch, ThunderPunch, and a strong Fighting STAB with either Drain Punch to keep it healthy or Close Combat to beat down some fools. Spinblockers are a bit uncommon at the moment (though definitely not out of the question), so Hitmonchan's occasional Rapid Spin can come in handy, though it is usually better to skip out on it. The main reason why it is pretty good is it is surprisingly hard to wall. BoltBeam coverage combined with a Fighting STAB gets really good coverage, being nearly perfect neutrally and getting a lot of walls for super effective damage. With this, Slowking is 2HKOed by Thunderpunch, and if its using Fire Blast on its defensive set it loses, Druddigon gets KOed by a combo of a Fighting move and Ice Punch (it may even get KOed by just a Fighting move), and many frail offensive Pokemon, such as Kabutops, Manectric, Sceptile, Absol and more, take 50% damage or more from a Mach Punch. Combined with the fact that it can heal off Life Orb damage with Drain Punch and you have a decent revenge killer and wallbreaker in one.

I've faced a lot of them recently and they have given my teams some grief with these traits, enough to be worthy of something higher than Mid-C imo. Although Psychic-types and Ghost-types have a pretty easy time with defeating it, it does heavily discourage Flying-types if it can predict a switch, and again, it lays a really nice hit on Slowking. It has its flaws but when combined with a Pursuit user, or when not being prepared for it very well (Hitmonchan gets past quite a few Pokemon that wall, say, Hitmonlee), Hitmonchan can really be useful.

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Also, I think Quagsire should drop to Low C, Mid at best (worst?). Simply put, there are other Water-types in the tier that do the same job of being a bulky water better, and Quagsire is majorly left in the dust without much of a true niche to boast. Even though Unaware helps out, many Pokemon just slap on a Choice Band or Life Orb and still obtain a 2HKO - this includes many of the set-up sweepers it is supposed to be checking, including Gallade. A lot of Electric-types also run Hidden Power Grass to just destroy it anyway (and then there's also Rotom-C). With Poliwrath getting many similar resistances and more, Alomomola providing fantastic support with Wish, Qwilfish providing Intimidate and entry hazards, Slowking checking a whole different set of Pokemon, and Lanturn not completely folding to Grass attacks while still being immune to Electric, there just is not much of a reason to use Quagsire anymore aside from checking a few sweepers (not very many) and having Recover, which doesn't help too much because so many things can beat it regardless.

 

[WePWNPokemon]

I agree with Hitmonchan moving up. I've been using it lately and it has hsown to be a reliable spinner. It's the only spinner in the tier ( I believe) that gets foresight so you can use it on the predicted switch to a ghost a freely spin. Mach Punch as a priority is what also makes Hitmonchan so good. It ca hit threats such as Klingklang, Omastar and many dark types very hard if they try to set up. Overall, Hitmonchan is a great and underrated spinner and definitely deserves to move up.

 

[Mack the Knife]

Nominating Magmortar for Low A Rank

Yes, Magmortar. It is a great Fire-type, in a tier full of great Fire-types. What differentiates from Typhlosion and Entei is it's very versatile move pool. Fire Blast is great for demolishing almost ever Grass- and Steel-type wall. With Thundrebolt even Slowking is scared to switch in. With Hidden Power Grass Quagsire and Lanturn aren't great options either. Focus Blast is great for the extra coverage and dealing with pesky Clefable. This movepool makes it a great wallbreaker, and let's it have the option of running Expert Belt instead of Life Orb. Even Druddigon, who is arguably the best switch, can be killed off with HP Ice. It isn't flawless (4 moveslot syndrome and SR weakness) but the right teammates can deal with it's problems with ease.

 

[EonX]

Hitmonchan: I've faced quite a few of these lately, and I have to say that I'm glad I use Mesprit. Otherwise, I'm sure I would have a few issues with trying to switch into this thing. I view Hitmonchan (offensively at least) like a physical version of Mesprit. Chan has physical BoltBeam for coverage while Mesprit has special BoltBeam for coverage. They each have decent STAB moves as well. Chan definitely has issues with Gallade (better coverage on Ghosts and Psychics) and Medicham (more raw power) around, but that STAB priority, better bulk when compared to Medicham (and a less risky STAB to boot) and better physical bulk (marginally) over Gallade does have its quirks. It's probably High C as it absolutely needs Ghosts and Psychics removed to function as well as Gallade (and even Medicham since it at least has STAB Psycho Cut / Zen Headbutt) but its coverage and priority is really good right now.

Quagsire: I definitely agree with this move. Of all the bulky Waters in RU, I feel Quagsire brings the least to the table. Outside of Lanturn, every other bulky Water can check Entei and Emboar on average, probably the 2 best physical Fire-types in RU right now. Entei can stick HP Grass in the last slot while Unaware will actually work against Quagsire if Emboar predicts with Superpower. Obviously, Quagsire is not handling special attacking Fire-types at all whereas Lanturn checks all of them nicely to make up for its inability to handle Emboar and Entei consistently. (Slowking checks these as well, but it's shakier than Lanturn in most cases) If you want to use the argument that Quagsire is immune to Electric-type moves, then just look to Lanturn. It's immune to Electric attacks and actually has the special bulk and typing to effectively wall virtually every special attacking Electric-type in the tier, even if they run a Grass-type coverage move. I think it should drop to Low C for all of these reasons.

As for Magmortar, I just don't have enough experience with it to really say one way or another. It certainly looks good enough for Low A, but I'd much rather test it out myself to see for sure before saying anything one way or another about it.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I'd be for Hitmonchan for Top C, that thing is a very potent offensive threat, boasting great coverage, and unlike the other Fighting-types in the tier, Hitmonchan is not helpless against Slowking thanks to its access to ThunderPunch, and has Iron Fist to add the "oomph" to the punch. It also breaks past Amoonguss as well thanks to also having Ice Punch, and it can recover itself with Drain Punch too. It could also run a cool Rapid Spin set that allows it to remove hazards, although not that great. Definitely Top C imo.

I haven't used Quagsire in ages so I don't know how it could perform in my hands, though tbh I've never seen one accomplish much at all. Imo it's pretty badly outclassed by other Water-types, as Poliwrath is bulkier, Mola has WishPassing, and Slowking is more useful in general as a catch-all wall. It's also outclassed by Lanturn at checking Galvantula/Manectric and shit, so yeah. I could see it in Mid or Low C, anywhere in C is fine by me though. (I don't really use Quagsire so I can't say much about it.)

I'll go test out Magmortar, as EonX said, I haven't use it either, but it looks like a pretty good wallbreaker on paper.

As for my own proposals.

I'd suggest Scolipede for Top B, even Low A maybe. As you all know, I've been using Scolipede a lot lately, and he's an excellent Pokemon with a lot of potential. He is an excellent Spiker, using his awesome Speed to quickly set up Spikes before the opponent can react, making him a great hazard user. Although Accelgor gives it some competition, Scolipede stands out with his better physical bulk allowing him to take a Kabutops' Aqua Jet more handily, and some other priority moves as well for that matter. Scolipede is also an excellent SD sweeper, using his power and incredible coverage to smash teams apart, and being able to actually take on Sceptile allows it to stand out from Durant, and Scolipede definitely outclasses Scyther. The big set that I've been loving lately though, is SubSalac Scolipede. Scolipede can literally use things like Uxie and Tangrowth as setup fodder, getting behind a Sub and setting up SD. (then hitting hard). Scolipede can also spam Subs till it activates Salac Berry, which as long as priority is gone, Scolipede can just destroy everything as he becomes the single fastest thing in RU, and Swarm adds more power to his brutal Megahorn. Overall Scolipede is a really awesome Pokemon in this metagame and should definitely be Top B-Rank imo.

I feel Sandslash should drop to Mid D-Rank. To be honest, Sandslash really has nothing going for it. It is one of the worst Rapid Spinners in RU, as it cannot beat many of the tier's spinblockers, which makes its job very difficult. Even if it does beat any spinblockers, it still cannot pull of a spin due to the sheer amount of offensive attacks it cannot take; it's not even that bulky so constant pressure means it cannot do well. While it is capable of spinning, it is just badly outclassed as a spinner and finds a lot of trouble on teams. It can find itself a spot on some teams, but the situations where it would be the only choice as a spinner do not arise very often.

 

[atomicllamas]

All this Quagsire bashing :(

I haven't used Quagsire in like a month, but I will say that every time I have used it, I found it to be successful.

One thing Quagsire has over all the bulky waters in RU besides Slowking is reliable recovery, which is far superior to rest talk (Poliwrath, Lanturn) or Pain Split (Qwilfish). Unlike the first post implied, Quagsire's typing is far superior to the other bulky waters bar Lanturn, (Poliwrath is still weak to electric, as well as psychic and flying). With investment, Quagsire is actually bulky, (hidden power grass on physical Entei does less than 50%, spam recover/switch). Quagsire's other niche over the bulky water types is curse, which is a usable boosting move on Quagsire and usually just needs 2-3 pokes on the other team to be eliminated to work (grass type moves and toxic users). I know that I always talk about how awesome sap sipper is as an ability, but it is really awesome, and Quagsire can really put your opponent into a position where they have to use grass moves. Miltank can absorb grass moves and support Quagsire/the team with Heal Bell and Stealth Rocks. The fact that Quagsire forces so many switches (if you can't do anything to Quagsire, you can't do anything to Quagsire) means that Quagsire can be used on defensive spike stacking teams pretty well. I think Quagsire should stay where it is, I understand if others disagree though.

 

[Slory]

i dont care about which rank is best for quagsire tbh, since its obviouly c rank and there is no more discussion here imo. but i have seen some wrongs things that i think should be discuss:

One thing Quagsire has over all the bulky waters in RU besides Slowking is reliable recovery, which is far superior to rest talk (Poliwrath, Lanturn) or Pain Split (Qwilfish). Unlike the first post implied, Quagsire's typing is far superior to the other bulky waters bar Lanturn, (Poliwrath is still weak to electric, as well as psychic and flying).

poliwrath's typing is perfectly for what it need to do. although is fighting-type give it some weakness allows wrath to take reliable esca/durant, one thing that quag can only dream, and still checking everything quag does bar sd gallade, and the weakness to psychic and flying isnt huge, since still quag loses to the likes of swellow and medicham. quag's typing is good, its electric inmunity is always cool, but because almost every electric has other ways to hit it hard (hp grass, secondary stab, etc.), quag is shaky answer and you'll probably see how your quag eats an hp grass from manectric or whatever. also this massive x4 weakness to grass, means that you cant take some things like hp grass entei or cinccino, and makes incredible ez to keep out quagsire. so regarding, i dont think that quag's typing can be considering " far superior" by any mean.

With investment, Quagsire is actually bulky, (hidden power grass on physical Entei does less than 50%, spam recover/switch).

4- SpA Entei Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 236-280 (59.89 - 71.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Quagsire's other niche over the bulky water types is curse, which is a usable boosting move on Quagsire and usually just needs 2-3 pokes on the other team to be eliminated to work (grass type moves and toxic users). I know that I always talk about how awesome sap sipper is as an ability, but it is really awesome, and Quagsire can really put your opponent into a position where they have to use grass moves. Miltank can absorb grass moves and support Quagsire/the team with Heal Bell and Stealth Rocks.

curse sucks simply. requires massive team support to work, and even with it, quag probably fails cause it's horrible.

the main problem that quag has is that stiff a LOT of competition for a slot with other bulky-waters. mola and wrath are the main. the former packs incredible physical bulk, so it doesnt care that much about set uppers since it able to stall out with toxic + protect the likes of sd gatr, and make mola able to check other mons that quag cant like zangoose, druddigon, etc.; also mola is able to give huge team support in the form of wish, that are really aprreciates for a lot of mons. the latter, has better overall bulk and desirable typing to take cb esca. also circle throw is all it needs to preventing for be a free switch to the likes of lilligant or rotom-c and racking up hazards damage. overall quag is really stressed by other bulky waters because it lacks of really huge things, and make much more difficult to justify his use over those.