Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

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Hello. I'm just a mediocre player that is barely sitting on ~1900 rating even with much effort. Because of this, I may not be eligible for bringing up any legitimate and well-thought out discussions. Yet, here I am...potentially making a fool out of myself. In hope of getting my question answered and possibly initiate a great discussion, I'd lik to ask you about garchomp's current standings in the OU metagame. I understand that he has great presence in the OU metagame, but is it enough to be a top-tier pokemon in the OU scene? Soon after its descent to the OU, people have always compared garchomp to few other pokemons (i.e. terrakion and lando-I). Usage does not necessarily indicate a pokemon's prowess, but I find it interesting to see that garchomp's usage rose as lando-I and terrakion's fell. And now, I am wondering if garchomp is still unworthy of being in S. What do you guys think?

On a side note, I understand people can get a little irritated in the midst of heated arguments but I'd love for this topic to be friendly and intellectual experience and not a who-has-bigger-epeen "debate."

Sorry if this derails from the topic but I thought it was worth a try since I believe garchomp has always been S-tier worthy.
However, I am not arguing for garchomp to be moved up to S (clearly because I did not present any supporting arguments) but simply asking for others' opinions.
 

Laga

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Sorry if this derails from the topic but I thought it was worth a try since I believe garchomp has always been S-tier worthy.
However, I am not arguing for garchomp to be moved up to S (clearly because I did not present any supporting arguments) but simply asking for others' opinions.
Even though you are probably a much better OU player than I am, I am still inclined to avoid supporting Garchomp for S tier.

My opinion is that it fits the A tier because of the fact that OU is extremely focused around speed. Basically, an OU team without a Choice Scarf user is often not a very good team at all (unless random Trick Room or something), which makes Garchomp hard to set up with (this is based around my opinion, which is that SD chomp is the best in the current metagame). Also, when OU is so focused around speed, a lot of people will play carefully with their Scarfer, allowing them to easily revenge kill Garchomp (something that almost all Scarfers can atm). It also faces a lot of competition from the likes of Dragonite and Kyurem-B. While it has more speed than both, and also better coverage, it faces competition from them because of the fact that they both have better abilities, Dragonite has Dragon Dance and ExtremeSpeed and Kyurem-B just has a buttload of attack combined with crazy bulk.

If it was still legal to use alongside Sand Veil though, THEN it would be S tier for sure. The whole reason it was banned in the first place was that Substitute + Swords Dance could completely screw over teams that lacked Skarmory just because of pure luck. But, now that it lacks the great ability, I personally think it fits A+ rank just fine.
 
Thanks for your input.
As long as it's a constructive argument, I do not mind people disagreeing with me.
Furthermore, I did say I think garchomp may be S-tier worthy but since I did not say as to why it should be, my opinion in that regards doesn't matter. I'm simply looking for others' opinions on garchomp and its current standings in the OU.

On a side note, I may be one of the very few to think so but I personally see SubSalac Garchomp with SD to be the most effective set in this metagame. Maybe the nature of unexpectedness but I found it to be incredibly deadly. This is, of course, probably different in the eyes of better players.
 

Laga

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Thanks for your input.
As long as it's a constructive argument, I do not mind people disagreeing with me.
Furthermore, I did say I think garchomp may be S-tier worthy but since I did not say as to why it should be, my opinion in that regards doesn't matter. I'm simply looking for others' opinions on garchomp and its current standings in the OU.

On a side note, I may be one of the very few to think so but I personally see SubSalac Garchomp with SD to be the most effective set in this metagame. Maybe the nature of unexpectedness but I found it to be incredibly deadly. This is, of course, probably different in the eyes of better players.

Great, now I have to go waste my life trying out SubSalac Garchomp.

I never actually thought about that one ;)
 

Gary

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On a side note, I may be one of the very few to think so but I personally see SubSalac Garchomp with SD to be the most effective set in this metagame. Maybe the nature of unexpectedness but I found it to be incredibly deadly. This is, of course, probably different in the eyes of better players.

No, the SubSalac set is amazing. I've been using it these past few weeks on a rain team, and it's absolutely fantastic. Better players should see it as a good set. I personally have found more success with it then the Yache Berry set, because the Yache berry is a bit situational, whereas the Salac Berry always has its uses in pretty much every match as long you use it correctly.
 
No, the SubSalac set is amazing. I've been using it these past few weeks on a rain team, and it's absolutely fantastic. Better players should see it as a good set. I personally have found more success with it then the Yache Berry set, because the Yache berry is a bit situational, whereas the Salac Berry always has its uses in pretty much every match as long you use it correctly.

I actually used the subsalac on my rain team as well and it got me to to 1900 a while ago.
Though I'm not making any progress from there.
I just started using it since I was initially using subsalac terrakion and it wasn't doing much for me so I said "maybe subsalac garchomp? why the hell not?"
Great, now I have to go waste my life trying out SubSalac Garchomp.

I never actually thought about that one ;)

Don't quote me on that lol.
I'm not good enough to give anyone any advice on competitive pokemon.
 

Chou Toshio

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No, the SubSalac set is amazing. I've been using it these past few weeks on a rain team, and it's absolutely fantastic. Better players should see it as a good set. I personally have found more success with it then the Yache Berry set, because the Yache berry is a bit situational, whereas the Salac Berry always has its uses in pretty much every match as long you use it correctly.
I also think Sub-Salac is great. It's much more fitting for the BW(2) metagame than Yache. With BW setting a whole new bar for Speed and Power, Garchomp needs that +1 Speed to truly be beast. At +2/+1, Garchomp is a monster even at a sliver of its health-- as long as you remember to take out priority users.

Yache only gained so much infamy because it was basically unstoppable in DPPt-- a much slower, weaker metagame, where basically nothing had the power to OHKO Garchomp without Ice Beam (Lati@s were banned, and Dragons were much fewer altogether-- plus, Garchomp was the fastest one, and everything hit softer than in BW). Yache was undoubtedly the best set for DPPt OU, and made Garchomp way too much to handle in or out of sand. Things hit so much harder and are so much faster in BW that it's no where near as impressive as it was last gen.
 
So do you guys believe the SubSalac is garchomp's best set as well at this point of time?
Furthermore, going back to my original question, is garchomp currently S-rank worthy?
Was lando-I's ban enough for garchomp to have more breathing space in the OU scene?
 

ElectivireRocks

Banned deucer.
I'm not entirely sure about Garchomp being S-rank material because of that set alone - after all it's stopped cold (no pun intended) by Ice Shard Mamoswine, walled by Skarmory and I'm pretty sure it can be revenge killed by Keldeo in the rain.
 
I think Heatran should be in A+ rank. It is much better with Landorus now banned, and can pull any set effectively. People have been using it primarily as a defensive mon, but offensively, it is just as incredible as it was during the DPP days.

I'm also nominating Gyarados for A+ rank. With two incredible abilities in Intimidate and Moxie, Gyarados can pull off bulky subshuffling sets, bulky DD sets, speedy, offensive sets, and an incredibly underrated banded set. Gyarados deserves to be an A+ ranked mon due to its versatility and stellar typing. It singlehandedly takes down everything in the S rank and A rank categories, and does incredibly well against OU pokemon. It's incredibly anti-meta as of now, and is without a doubt the best offensive counters/checks to the OU metagame.
 

ShootingStarmie

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I'm pretty sure Gyarados was mentioned a few pages back, so go there if you'd like to see the counter arguments, but I'd rather not discuss Gyarados again. Heatran is amazing defensively, I haven't had much experience using the offensive set though
 
Just gonna mention that heatran's trapper set is absolutely incredible in this meta--sunny day tran, in fact, 6-0s most rain teams, as it easily beats bulky waters 1-on-1 with magma storm, sunny day, and solarbeam, and in sun magma storm packs an insane amount of power (even timid tran OHKOs max HP landy-t after SR: 252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T in sun: 355-418 (92.93 - 109.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock). 75% accuracy is honestly the biggest downfall of the set, since it sometimes gives away the surprise, but this set is still really really effective in the current meta. That said, I'm not supporting it go to A+ honestly--the meta is still too rain-oriented, with too many powerful fighting and ground attacks for tran to really stand out as a threat. I'm kinda surprised it's higher than A- tbh.
 
I'm not entirely sure about Garchomp being S-rank material because of that set alone - after all it's stopped cold (no pun intended) by Ice Shard Mamoswine, walled by Skarmory and I'm pretty sure it can be revenge killed by Keldeo in the rain.

Nobody has said whether or not garchomp should be in the S rank with its SubSalac set alone.
That being said, I don't see the SubSalacChomp to be dominant enough to boost garchomp to the S rank.
I am, by no means, taking away its effectiveness as I've been surprise-buttsexed by it few times.
I find it to work very similarly with SubSalacTerrakion but fit better in more teams.
I've also been seeing subsalac garchomp being used in rain teams lately and it was surprisingly deadly.
As many know, as soon as one removes Latios, Skarmory, Bronzong, and Keldeo, this tihng wrecks havoc.
I may be talking out of my ass here so I'd like to hear out what others have to say though.
Besides, I'm rather interested in garchomp's OU rank placement now.

Quick question, can somebody tell me quickly as to why terrakion was dropped from S?
Just curious, 'tis all heh.
 
I don't think garchomp is a S material.
Sure it's damn good but I don't see it being on the same "tier" with Keldeo and Politoad, even with Lando's banishment.
The biggest trait of the land shark that stop garchomp from being in the S, imho, is its speed.
It's actaully damn fast but with latios, terrakion, and keldeo around, in particular, it's not fast enough.
Fuck, I'm probably sounding like an idiot here.
 
I feel that so many pokemon hard counter keldeo, that it doesn't really belong in S rank along with politoed. It has a terrible movepool(water spam, secret sword, sub, cm, hidden power) that limits it to 3 or four special sets. It's pretty damn good under rain and Secret Sword is amazing, but I digress...

Garchomp can run interesting support sets with its solid bulk and deter spinning with rough skin/rocky helmet, has great mixed options, an incredible lead set, a solid CB set, sub/boostingberry, yache, Swords Dance, and one of the most reliable choice scarf sets in the game.

Garchomp's ice shard weakness is hardly a flaw, and can be remedied with Yache Berry if you find it particularly bad for some reason. The main problem with it is that 102 Speed, while incredible, just isn't what it used to be anymore. Faster scarfers, latitwins, keldeo, jolteon, starmie, etc all make things tough for OU's best dragon. (inb4 dragonite)
 

Punchshroom

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Terrakion was very prominent in BW1, but BW2 brought along pokes such as Landorus-T, Keldeo and TechniLoom, which diminish Terrakion's presence. Most people are more prepared for Terrakion nowadays, which is why it doesn't see the dominance like it did in the older days.
 

PDC

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Terrakion has a lot more problems in this metagame than it did during the BW1 metagame because of mostly Landorus-T and Breloom, along with a bit of resurgence in Hippowdon popularity. Terrakion is still fantastic, but it just doesn't garner the power it once had.

Keldeo is in S Rank because of not only how powerful it is, but how it can ultimately beat most of its "counters", especially with the Expert Belt set. Latias has trouble with Keldeo with Stealth Rock up, especially less defensive variants who may not be able to consistently switch into a Expert Belt Icy Wind or Hidden Power Bug, or Ghost. With Stealth Rock up teams that only rely on Latias as a check to Keldeo struggle. With Stealth Rock up Keldeo becomes a much more dangerous Pokemon, and it ultimately becomes the "Lucario of BW2". Without Rocks, Keldeo is still threatening but it does miss out on some KOs. With it, it can ultimtely threaten virtually every Pokemon in the metagame harshly aside from maybe Latias or Jellicent, who are still threatened badly if weakened.

Garchomp is a very good Pokemon, and Rough Skin is absolutely amazing, in fact, better than Sand Veil in some situations. Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin in an extremely annoying combination with hazards. If you run a bulky Garchomp with hazards and Rocky Helmet, U-Turn users like Scizor and Jirachi are in for a big surprise every time they try to gain momentum. However I just don't feel Garchomp is good enough for S Rank. Amazing Pokemon? Sure, Garchomp is fabulous and a god-send for some teams. Life Orb Aqua Tail on Rain and Choice Band are probably the best sets Garchomp currently has, with Stealth Rock right behind it. Garchomp is A+ for sure, but its not quite S Rank. It may be a contender, but I just don't feel it is as valuable as it was back in Gen 4.
 
I agree with PDC
Garchomp is possibly one of the best A+, if not the best.
He is on the fence between S and A+.
I'm not quite sure how he'd be now though tbh without lando-I.

Also, if garchomp still had SV I personally think he'd been S and eventually banned (or SV agan)
But as of now, I think he's a borderline S/A+ that leans not towards A+
Still, I wouldn't be too surprised to see garchomp in S in the near future
 
I nominate Shiftry for C-Rank. Although he hates priority more than anything, and entry hazards, courtesy of his horrible defenses, he is a good Chlorophyll user with solid power, and a STAB Priority move. He also has three solid boosting moves in Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, and Growth. Shiftry's advantage over Sawsbuck in the Swords Dance set is the STAB Sucker Punch that is absurdly strong with STAB. And since it finds its niche on Sun teams, it can find itself partnered with Ninetales and Victini, whom can beat out Scizor and Breloom for it. Shiftry has problems setting up, but once it does, it can wreck unprepared teams.

I also nominate Machamp for D-Rank. Although it is overshadowed by most Fighting types in the tier, Substitute + STAB DynamicPunch is a pain in the neck to teams who did not pack Techniloom or a bulky Ghost. I know its viability has faded out since the beginning of BW because of its lack of overwhelming power or solid, reliable bulk, but unprepared teams tend to find themselves in a hole against the 100% confusion chance.
 
Honestly, I find Machamp never a threat. too many Pokemon can check, since it's soooo slow. You don't even need priority to deal with it, lol.

Anyways, Reuniclus is B+ RANK imo.

This thing has been one of the most defining thing in early BW1. It turned fast offensive teams to its advantage, and its CM set is the most effective stall-breaker still. The CM set is threatening against offensive teams too, since nothing can KO it basically bar Tyranitar's Choice Band Crunch. Choice Band Garchomp's Outrage only 2HKOes! This gives it time to CM to victory, and sweep the opposing team. Magic Guard is a huge plus for Reuniclus as well since it takes no recoil from Life Orb. I honestly think that the Trick Room is outclassed by Alakazam, but has its advantages, since Alakazam is outpaced by most Choice Scarf users. The CM Mind set is devastating when used correctly though. Recover is something Reuniclus can use more effectively than Alakazam thanks to its respctable bulk. It also take minimal damage from Gyro Ball. The CM set is a reliable check to Conkeldurr too. Reuniclus isn't making it to A, but its definetely B+ material. I'll add more later, but that's what I got for now.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
I despise facing machamp. One bad matchup against it and you have quite a problem on your hands. D or C would fit i think
 
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100%, how many pokemon do you know that can switch into a DynamicPunch, other than Skarmory and ghosts?
Gyarados can switch in and Intimidate it. And it doesn't matter if the opponent can switch in or not, because the problem is, it's slow meaning it has to rely on confusion hax to get another hit and its priority in Bullet Punch and Vacuum Wave is weak, plus its defenses don't do it any favors too. It is also not really that strong. 252 HP Heatran can live a DynamicPunch!

252+ Atk Machamp DynamicPunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 342-404 (88.83 - 104.93%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO

That is just sad... and Heatran can retaliate back using LAva Plume and those defenses are sad, especially compounded by low speed.

0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 124-147 (38.62 - 45.79%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Offensive Heatran simply OHKOes with Fire Blast.

Almost every Choice user can OHKO it.

252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 354-417 (110.28 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Machamp has close to no use on competitive teams, but its Substitute set has a niche as a good annoyer. D-Rank IMO, and even then, it is spoiled by Toxic and Burn. I'd rather use Choice Band Heracross or the some kind of fighting-type with Fist Plate like Terrakion (although LO is superior). Machamp is too outclassed as an attacking lead, though i guess sub has its worth.
 
Gyarados can switch in and Intimidate it. And it doesn't matter if the opponent can switch in or not, because the problem is, it's slow meaning it has to rely on confusion hax to get another hit and its priority in Bullet Punch and Vacuum Wave is weak, plus its defenses don't do it any favors too. It is also not really that strong. 252 HP Heatran can live a DynamicPunch!

252+ Atk Machamp DynamicPunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 342-404 (88.83 - 104.93%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO

That is just sad... and Heatran can retaliate back using LAva Plume and those defenses are sad, especially compounded by low speed.

0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 124-147 (38.62 - 45.79%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Offensive Heatran simply OHKOes with Fire Blast.

Almost every Choice user can OHKO it.

252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 354-417 (110.28 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Machamp has close to no use on competitive teams, but its Substitute set has a niche as a good annoyer. D-Rank IMO, and even then, it is spoiled by Toxic and Burn. I'd rather use Choice Band Heracross or the some kind of fighting-type with Fist Plate like Terrakion (although LO is superior). Machamp is too outclassed as an attacking lead, though i guess sub has its worth.

First off, Machamp runs a shit ton of HP EV's, but here is a calc for that offensive Heatran damage you mentioned without the HP EV's for Machamp:
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 246-291 (76.63 - 90.65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after SR
With HP EV's it would obviously be much lower.

Secondly, its niche is to cause confusion and hit hard at the same time. Its "sad" to you that DynamicPunch doesn't guarantee an OHKO on a Max HP Heatran? LOL WUT. Its not like Heatran is frail; he's pretty damn bulky.

Thirdly, saying almost every choice user can OHKO it is another substance-less statement. Here's another calc:
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 322-379 (99.38 - 116.97%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO

So is Terrakion as bad as you feel Machamp is? If you bring up speed being a factor, Substitute alleviates that by guaranteeing a hit on an opponent, which would cause them to switch out and Machamp to set up another Sub.

Finally, why would you go into such detail and then agree with its placement in D-rank? Shouldn't these points you're making show that it shouldn't be ranked at all?
 
Finally, why would you go into such detail and then agree with its placement in D-rank? Shouldn't these points you're making show that it shouldn't be ranked at all?
Nice argument bro, but that confusion + hit hard is a niche, and that's what gives it a placement in D-Rank. I was mainly talking about the Substitute set, not the the All-Out Lead Set.
 
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