CAP 17 CAP 6 - Part 1 - Concept Submissions

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm mainly going after submissions that have some evidence of support, but little or no commentary.

Quanyails's "Show Me Your Moves!" - The example is interesting because it's of a Pokemon that tried pretty hard to be relevant to OU, even being part of an early team archetype. I'm not sure how much focus we can put on a single move that isn't Sketch, but it seems worth pursuing.

reachzero's "Setting the Pace" - Hey, I remember voting for this last time! I know some are concerned about it possibly being too straightforward, but that largely happened with Malaconda and that turned out to be a pretty cool ride.

srk1214's "All Your Phaze Are Belong to Us" - The fact that the general description is basically a secondary (and better) name gives me doubts, and the justification and explanation confirm those doubts. Phazers do exist in OU. They're there, and they're somewhat viable. I'm not sure of how another phazer could change the situation.

Yilx's "The Big Dipper" - I voted for this last time, too! It seems as if the notion of "cores" has mysteriously disappeared from the vernacular, and a concept like this might help us reconsider what we think a core is.

Scorpio's "Form Changer" - There are two main problems I have with this. First of all, I'm not sure of how we could do this legally in an interesting way. In-battle forme changes are all unique. Triggering a forme change with a move would be weird unless the Pokemon got a signature move, and then... The other problem I have is that I'm not convinced that multiple formes actually offer anything as a concept. What would we be doing here that can't be achieved by two CAP Pokemon?

Deck Knight's "Vengeful but Chipper" - I can't really find much to say about this, other than that it was hard to figure out what you were going for until you mentioned Mienshao as an example. I don't know how I feel about that.

DarkSlay's "Swiss Army Knife" - Ha, this is pretty similar to a concept I might have submitted for CAP 6. I think the main goal of a concept like this would be to make multiple sets that are roughly equally viable. It seems versatility in single Pokemon has declined in this generation compared to the previous one, and it might be pretty cool to examine why that happened and how to address it.

SubwayJ's "Blunt Force Trauma" - I think that stuff in Gen 3 managed to get away with having no effective STAB simply because of the lack of the physical/special split. When not everything could just select a STAB and call it a day, the resulting metagame had less pressure for offensive threats to hit harder than the other guys. So right now I can only really see this being a Pokemon that lacks offensive presence, and while there are some examples of Pokemon that make use of this (e.g. Liepard), I'm not sure we can make an OU-viable Pokemon that does this. I'm open to be pleasantly surprised, though.

DougJustDoug's "Last Man Standing" - This seems like a pretty tall order to me. There are a lot of threats with a lot of instant-damage potential, and I suspect that this is the main reason for the decline of last-Pokemon scenarios. I'd love to see this actually pulled off, though.

Svenwill's "Adaptations for Different Relations!" - I think you're asking the wrong questions, but I see the potential of a concept like this. TrickScarf was a very common tactic in Gen 4, and I'm reminded of stuff like that when reading this concept.

Homeslice's "Extremely Hazardous" - I like this concept mainly for doing something similar to what CAP 5 ended up doing. It's true that hazards are talked about from many different angles even today, but it's really difficult to really gauge the effects of hazards on the OU metagame.

erisia's "Hazardbuster" - I don't like this concept as much as Homeslice's, mainly due to it specifically doing something similar to Colossoil (and arguably Malaconda) while not really addressing any questions that Homeslice's concept wouldn't.

Birkal's "Inspiration Through Translation" - This sounds a lot like another concept I might have submitted. Right now, we don't really have a way of exploring metagames other than OU without disrupting the main flow of CAP project-building. I think that we should pick from a relatively popular metagame, though, so that there are still a lot of people who could make informed judgments on what the base Pokemon does, avoiding making the CAP Pokemon too much of a generic version... You know what I mean?

Oglemi's "One Hit Wonder" - I can see some merit in this concept, but I worry about how it would be interpreted. A lot of the complaints against various existing threats is that all you have to do is click the power move and watch something take massive damage. I'm aware that most Pokemon have some kind of versatility that becomes almost vital to the appearance of "click X and win". Though that does beg the question: What about versatility within a single moveset? A choiced Pokemon generally uses coverage moves to catch switch-ins off-guard, at the risk of being uselessly locked in that move, and of course there's the opportunity cost of not using the power move.
 
Ok, I've deleted most (hopefully all) of the questions that can be answered in the polls, and put in some better questions. Hopefully this should spark some meaningful debate.

@Base Speed: It's okay, I knew those questions I deleted sorta sucked anyways.

@capefeather: For your second question, what I'm trying to do with this concept is see if a Pokemon could handle having to change its role mid-battle and also if form-changing would be attempting to shove too much into one Pokemon.

So basically, you're asking the same question as one of my Questions to be Answered.

As for the first question, we've done signature moves and abilities in the past, haven't we?
 

Yilx

Sad
is a Top Artist Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
reachzero: Thank you for your input. I'll steer closer towards "corebreaking" rather than "wallbreaking", but I'd also like to clarify something; the concept seeks to explore ways outside of brute force that could possibly break down a team's core.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
srk1214: Yours has potential, but most of us can already feel the power of phazing moves in OU. Again, it is too ambiguous at the moment, so please explain more. Do you want to only play the mon on stall? Does it use roar like Roar Blaziken does? etc.
I don't necessarily think the mon would only be played on stall. I think many teams frequently need a response to set-up sweepers (and sweepers in general.) That's why people use things like Focus Sash Alakazam. If we've done our job right, this CAP should be totally usable in any playstyle except super-offensive.

srk1214: This could be great fun. However, I'd like to know how we'd make the pokemon's typing and abilities relevant to your concept, as we could end up being very very focused on the movepool for this. Any chance of adding a bit of a "how we might make this" section to your currently rather short explanation?
I'll try to add a few more points in the explanation, but for now, just see my answers to Eagle4 and our beloved TL.

srk1214: Hmm. I don't think that there is a great deal to explore within the territory of phasing. We already have parashufflers and the likes, so it's not exactly new to us. There is also the fact that this concept is a little less broad than a typical concept of Gen V CAP, where we are set on one specific part of battling, and a small part of that. Simply put, there is not much to explore within the realms of phasing and so I don't think that this concept would work.
srk1214's "All Your Phaze Are Belong to Us" - The fact that the general description is basically a secondary (and better) name gives me doubts, and the justification and explanation confirm those doubts. Phazers do exist in OU. They're there, and they're somewhat viable. I'm not sure of how another phazer could change the situation.
I obviously disagree that there's not enough to explore. I think that the biggest thing to explore is the viability of a more utility-phazer. Skarmory phazes Rock Polish Landorus-T just fine. But not so much Calm Mind HP Fire Latias. Heatran phazes Calm Mind HP Fire Latias just fine. But not so much Rock Polish Landorus-T. Essentially, we'd be looking for a phazer that can handle a large multitude of set-up threats from both sides of the attacking spectrum.
 
Name: Counter of the Caribbean
General Description: A Pokemon that counters Pokemon with "no true counters".

Justification: Pokemon such as Hydreigon, Kyurem-B, and many others are often dealt with through hyper offensive pressure, which some consider unhealthy for the metagame. A Pokemon that can tank several hits from currently "uncounterable" threats and force them out can be analyzed to discover the extent a Pokemon can alter the balance of playstyles. Though top players such as BKC have used stall successfully, this Pokemon may have the potential to make playstyles other than offense more accessible.

Questions To Be Answered:
  • What Pokemon are currently considered manageable enough for OU but uncounterable?
  • How can we construct a Pokemon that can counter the above threats without stifling other offensive Pokemon?
  • What is the ideal balance of playstyles?
  • Can one Pokemon change the pace of the metagame without restricting teambuilding or becoming overcentralizing?
  • What can a Pokemon do to augment the effectiveness of other defensive Pokemon.

Explanation
This concept has a lot of potential to create an enjoyable playtest by generating a more balanced metagame; more importantly though, it will help us understand the limits of a single Pokemon's ability to alter the metagame as a whole without becoming overpowered. The CAP community will be forced to come up with a creative way to decentralize playstyles without centralizing around one Pokemon. The concept could partner well with existing Pokemon to enhance their ability to deal with offense in an effort to solve this dilemma.

In DPP there is a relatively safe switch-in to almost every threat. This is even more prevalent in ADV. These two OU metagames were considered the most enjoyable according to a recent survey by Chou Toshio. With this logic, a Pokemon that both is a safe switch to top threats and takes pressure of other defensive Pokemon so they can feasibly counter other threats should make BW2 OU a more enjoyable metagame. Perhaps this concept can alternately be titled "The Enjoyability Enforcer" because a significant goal of the creation of this CAP should be making Pokemon more fun to play and defining what that entails. Obviously that's much too broad an idea but screw it, lets just have an awesome time with this CAP and Pokemon in general!
 
@LimaPro643: All your questions to be answered can already be answered with "Yes. Just look at what happened with Aurumoth" so it's very clear we're on dangerous ground here. First of all, some deeper questions that we don't know the answer to need to be asked, and secondly, you really need to put some sort of discussion into your explanation about how we'll avoid making this guy broken, otherwise people will just be scared off.
It's very easy for a Pokémon like this to not be broken. It wouldn't need Registeel defenses or a ridiculously high offensive stat, just enough for it to perform well as whatever role it takes on. This way, the Pokémon could truly fit the needs of its team. Also, I never envisioned this kind of Pokémon to be fast. Again, crippling weaknesses could stop this Pokémon in its tracks, especially if said weaknesses were common.
 

ginganinja

It's all coming back to me now
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
General Description: A Pokemon that counters Pokemon with "no true counters".
This is a good idea, although I don't actually know how feasible it is. Hydreigon especially, can run moves such as DM / Outrage / Fire Blast / Focus Blast / Surf / Dark Pulse / Earth Power / Superpower / Earthquake, and Roost. Granted, it cannot run all these at once, but considering its (quite frankly), massive movepool, and large attacking stats, I have no idea just how possible it could be to create a pokemon that can actually tank hits that hard, from both attacking sides of the spectrum. We might succeed, but again, we would have to worry about something that becomes 2 overbearing. For instance, we could end up with something with the bulk of Lugia, which would be unhealthy for the meta. Do you have any ideas as to how to address the concern of creating a pokemon that just handles those pokemon with no counters, without giving it the ability to wall something dumb like half the meta or something?

@ srk

I obviously disagree that there's not enough to explore. I think that the biggest thing to explore is the viability of a more utility-phazer. Skarmory phazes Rock Polish Landorus-T just fine. But not so much Calm Mind HP Fire Latias. Heatran phazes Calm Mind HP Fire Latias just fine. But not so much Rock Polish Landorus-T. Essentially, we'd be looking for a phazer that can handle a large multitude of set-up threats from both sides of the attacking spectrum.
So what you want, it something that legit beats any set up sweeper that we have in OU, in ONE pokemon. Quite frankly, this risks utterly killing Offense since you cannot actually set up because CAP 6 with its massive defences (im assuming) will just phaze your ass. Even if Offence survives, I disagree with your claim that Offence would use a phazer, because in practise, Offensive teams don't need one.

An aggressive offensive team in BW2 is focused around putting pressure on your opponent, hitting hard, throwing everything at any walls your opponent might have, trying to break through those walls, and eventually pull off a sweep. They don't use phazers because you don't need them, because you shouldn't be giving your opponent enough momentum to actually set up against you. You might be throwing around attacks such as a CB Outrage from Kyurem-B because you know that if that Lucario wants to set up, its taking a truckload from Outrage, and that you have something like a Double Dance Landorus-T, or Priority from something else, or maybe a general revenge killer to shut down any counterplay. You don't see them use a defensive sweeper, because 9 times outta 10, that kills your momentum. Its why on, for instance, standard HO teams, you won't see a Ferrothorn because your foot should (metaphorically speaking) be always on the pedal.
 

MCBarrett

i love it when you call me big hoppa
Name: No Turning Back
General Description: A Pokemon that makes using Volt Switch and U-Turn a larger risk for the opponent.

Justification: As shown in a recent discussion on the OU Forums, there has been much debate as to whether or not U-Turn is a broken move. Arguments have stated that too much pressure/ prediction is avoided by simply going for U-Turn. Basically, while it is not always the "Best Play" it is never a "Bad Play". Building a Pokemon that could minimize the effectiveness on U-Turn would have a huge impact on the current metagame and would allow us to see how certain Pokemon and Playstyles that abuse the VoltTurn strategy would be affected.

Questions To Be Answered:
  • Is VoltTurn in fact a broken strategy?
  • Would a "counter" to VoltTurn help to even out the current metagame?
  • What characteristics would this VoltTurn "counter" have?
  • Is building a "counter" to VoltTurn even possible?
  • How will Pokemon/Playstyles that currently abuse VoltTurn be affected by this Pokemon?
  • How would Pokemon/Playstyles that are currently destroyed by VoltTurn (Namely Celebi and Stall Teams) fare with this Pokemon as a teammate?
Explanation: With BW/BW2 being so Offensively oriented, having momentum on your side is arguably the number one most important factor in the current OU Metagame. With that being said, U-Turn and Volt Switch have become two of the most Effective moves in today's metagame. It would be very interesting to see how this strategy would fare if a Pokemon was created that could finally make using U-Turn a "Bad Play". This could potentially result in a much more balanced and skill-based PlayTest as some have argued that U-Turn has been the bane of Stall and that it has taken a lot of skill out of the game.
 
Name: The Left Bower

General Description: A Pokemon that's power is offset by requiring finesse to use.

Justification: The introduction of Team Preview on simulators for this generation has changed the way in which certain Pokemon work. There is no lead metagame and prediction is easier with the ability to know all the members of your opponent's team. The idea of a secret trump card had, until 5th gen, always been a way to equalise and pull games back from the brink by properly planning when and how to use the ace, or jack, up your sleeve. This type of play has dwindled in the wake of the generation we are now in and this CAP would aim to explore how such in battle planning could be used to win.

Questions to be Answered:
  • What options are there to create the unknown while champion select exists?
  • How does the skill to power ratio work in Pokemon? How can it be manipulated to make using a hard to use Pokemon worthwhile without making it OP levels of strong in skilled hands?
  • What stages of battle exist and how does a battler tell when the right time to strike is?
  • Under what conditions do trump card plays work?
  • What did previous examples of this idea bring to the metagame? (SubPetaya Empoleon, RBY Zapdos, SuperRachi, SubSplit Gengar)
  • How do you stop a Pokemon from being useful when slightly misplayed?
  • To what extent does skill play a part post team-building?
  • How can clear win-lose Pokemon to Pokemon matchups be made hazy and uncertain?
Explaination: In Euchre, the left bower is the second strongest card and is always a double edged sword. Playing it too early will mean it just gets snubbed by the stronger card and playing it too late will result in an unsalvageable round. This CAP would fill a similar role, strength when played right, but crippling when played wrong. We know that there is a gap between using a great team and actually having success which has been proven time and time again by amazing RMT's falling flat on their face when used by other people. This idea can work for individual Pokemon as well. There does exist a very real risk of creating a Pokemon that is simply mathematical to use. (Bring in on this-this and this, but not this) This type of conditional use has led to some famous matchups in the past that have created exiting play to both watch and take part in. Like the long debate over how SubSplit Gengar can beat Blissey 'sometimes' and Zapdos post ground types being removed in RBY. I feel that exploring this CAP would tell us alot about how Team Preview (Arguably the biggest change between this generation and the previous) has effected the metagame and how we battle after the game has begun as well as pointing out the separations between knowing what to do and playing it by ear.
 
Just comments at the two post above me:
@MCBarrett: While I wish this concept was feasible, it seems impossible to me. The only true way to stop VoltTurn would be to create a Pokemon that is A. Immune to Electric type attacks (possible) and B. Immune to Bug attacks (impossible as far as I'm aware unless there's some obscure ability I didn't know about). Without being immune to both, VoltTurn still does it's job because even resisting Bug moves still causes them to switch out and now they have a counter/check out against you and you lose. I wish it would work, but I can't put my support behind it until I know it's possible.

@Brammi: I have no idea what you're proposing here. Could you make your submission a little more clear? It seems (to me) to go from find something that is still surprising even in Team Preview to make something that requires skill and time to use to make something that can have a small chance to beat its counters. I might be missing something, but could you at least explain it to me?
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
@ginganinja

Where did I say all? I said many. And mixed. Skarmory can phaze many threats, they're just all physical. This would phaze many, but NOT ALL, threats from both sides. I don't expect this thing to take on +1 Hydro Pump, +1 Outrage, and +2 Close Combat, etc etc. It should be able to take on some threats from both sides though. This CAN be done without killing offense. And even if it were to be strong, the metagame adapts. Taunt could see more use, for example. It's no different from starting to run Signal Beam Rotom-W as an answer to Celebi.
 

erisia

Innovative new design!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
@MCBarrett:

I've been thinking about your concept a little today, and I agree with Homeslice in that it'll be difficult to persuade stuff like Scizor not to U-turn out. I think it's definitely possible; abilities like Flame Body and Rough Skin combined with a high Defense stat and U-turn resistance would often make U-turn a poor choice. You could also make a slow Substitute abuser that could tank a U-turn from Scizor, and Substitute afterwards to block the incoming opponent, which could be really dangerous if you give CAP6 good offensive stats and options. I like the idea, and it seems like there'd be more than one way to skin the cat, but it would still be a little bit more restrictive than some of the other concepts.

@capefeather

I see where you're coming from, but neither Colossoil nor Malaconda were focused explicitly on removing hazards (Rapid Spin is just a really popular move in CAP) so I'm not too concerned by the similarity. There's certainly no pressure to make the hazardbuster a Dark-type either; with the only common OU Ghosts being Gengar, Jellicent, and Sableye, a strong Thunderbolt would do equally well in deterring spinblockers. I also agree in that my concept does not raise as many questions as Homeslice's, but I believe that focusing on one specific concept (removing hazards) would produce a more conclusive outcome than balancing many at once (removing hazards, placing them, abusing them)
 

MCBarrett

i love it when you call me big hoppa
Just comments at the two post above me:
@MCBarrett: While I wish this concept was feasible, it seems impossible to me. The only true way to stop VoltTurn would be to create a Pokemon that is A. Immune to Electric type attacks (possible) and B. Immune to Bug attacks (impossible as far as I'm aware unless there's some obscure ability I didn't know about). Without being immune to both, VoltTurn still does it's job because even resisting Bug moves still causes them to switch out and now they have a counter/check out against you and you lose. I wish it would work, but I can't put my support behind it until I know it's possible.
I think there are a few ways that this could be possible. First of all, any contact abilities, like Erisia mentioned, such as Flame Body, Rough Skin, Effect Spore, Static, etc. would make someone think twice about using U-Tun. Also, any abilities that were to give a boost for eating a U-Turn such as Rattled or Weak Armor, both of which would give a speed boost to a Pokemon hit by U-Turn, could put some pressure on to the opponent by limiting what the could switch out into. Lastly, since U-Turn does not appreciate hazards at all, and since one of the goals of U-Turn is to force switches, anything that could help along the lines of Hazard Control would be beneficial to this concept. Maybe it is somewhat constrictive like Erisia said but it is definitely possible imo.
 
Capefeather:
Thanks :D I'm not sure exactly what questions I should be asking, but if anyone actually votes for my concept I'll be sure to look into it.
 
Hyperbeem's "Counter of the Caribbean" - I'm not sure if this is completely feasible, though I guess that depends on what one means by "counter". It could be enough to throw multiple "uncounterable" threats off of their usual sets, hence opening them up to things that they'd normally threaten. That much could be enough to make this worthwhile.

MCBarrett's "No Turning Back" - I like this for many of the same reasons I like Homeslice's concept. People indeed often talk about U-turn in particular, which is kind of funny considering people look on BW1's VoltTurn-dominated metagame relatively fondly nowadays. We'd have to throw out conventional notions of "countering" since U-turn circumvents them, but I can definitely see some possibilities for this.

Brammi's "The Left Bower" - I'm rather confused as to what you're going for here. The general description is vague, while the rest reminds me of DougJustDoug's concept.

erisia: It's true that Colossoil and Malaconda have hazard removal as just one facet of what they do. I just wonder if they haven't pretty much done everything concerning removing hazards in particular.

I plan to wrap this up in about 24 hours, barring a slew of more concept submissions and/or discussion.
 
First timer here so please bear with me O_O.

Name:"Ramparados like Tank"

General Description: A Pokemon that can take hits, and dish out major damage without stat raising.

Justification:No one likes getting swept. But when you're doing the sweeping.... Well you're the happiest person in the world. You know what sweepers can do. Sweepers like Haxorus and Cloyster out speed and crush your pokemon before they can even move. Others like Conkeldurr and Latias boost their best offensive stat and its defensive counterpart before unleashing their terror. OU players want to be able to stop their opponents sweep and possibly even set up a sweep of their own. OU sweeper's sets can sometimes be easily predicted and even countered. Part of my concept is for a Pokemon to utilize many, many movesets. I think a concept like this won't only be effective minimizing the amount of sweepers active in the battle, but it will shift the metageme completely.

Questions To Be Answered: How will this Pokemon change the metagame?
How often will players use this Pokemon?
What will players do to utilize this Pokemon's set diversity?
How will players counter this Pokemon?


Explanation: The inspiration for this concept came from Snorlax, and Ramparados (hence the concept name). Players use snorlax to take hits and with a little bit of stat raising, become a sweeping tank. Ramparados whom I love not only because he's a dinosaur (Yup! Dino nerd here!!!) but his base attack that can sweep with no artificial stat raising! A pokemon that can eat hits like a Snorlax and needs no boosts like Ramparados would be most effective in the OU. Like Ramparados I feel like this pokemon should be designed after a dinosaur, they're one of the few things I feel can match the description of the pokemon in the concept I described.

Like I said before I'm a first timer. Feedback would be appreciated. Please and Thanks.
 
welp
Name: Non-Indicative Stats

General Description: A Pokémon whose stats do not relate at all to the role it plays.

Justification: In the current metagame, a Pokémon's stats directly influence a Pokémon's role. (Scizor, with 130 Base Attack, serves as an attacker, while Blissey's 255 base HP and high Special Defense make her the strongest special wall in the game.) This concept aims towards making a Pokémon whose combination of abilities, movepool and typing give it a different role than what its stats would indicate, and would help us learn how every single competitive part of the Pokémon dictates its role.

Questions To Be Answered:
  • How do stats influence a Pokémon? When is a Pokémon offensive, defensive or balanced?
  • What benefits can you get from a type combination, defensively and offensively?
  • How do abilities influence a playstyle? Will a Pokémon be offensively or defensively orientated due to its ability?
  • What moves must a Pokémon have in order to succeed in the role it plays?
  • At what point is a stat too bad to give EVs to? Where is EV investment a waste?
Explanation: The OU Metagame is overwhelmed with Pokémon who do their job because of their stats. However, some Pokémon play a role well not because of their stats, but by a combination of a good movepool and ability. Sableye has horrible 50/75/65 defensive stats and a low 50 Speed, but Prankster and many status moves give it the tools it needs to be a fast wall. Azumarill has a measly 50 Base Attack and Speed, but STAB Aqua Jet and Huge Power make it be an offensive threat, even in OU. There are endless possibilities for this concept to bloom: a frail and slow physical attacker who could knock its opponents off guard with the sheer force of an Analytic boost; a wall that has horrible defenses but an okay HP stat and Regenerator to back it up (along with its movepool, of course); heck, you could throw in a suicide lead with Stench/Aftermath, hazards and a typing that could take on a variety of Pokémon without too much trouble.
 

Quanyails

On sabbatical!
is a Top Artist Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Thoughts and responses:
  • reachzero: The last time you brought up this concept, I wasn't too enthusiastic about it. My thought process was "CAP with middling speed to outspeed Heatran but lose to faster threats"--something that previous CAPs have done. However, upon revisiting the concept, I see that speed tiers do not necessarily have to do with raw speed, and the underlying idea of different roles with different speeds is still intriguing. It's an idea I'd like to be performed successfully. I just hope that analyzing speed benchmarks won't result in something middling, though. :/
  • Psylink: Apologies that your idea has already been done, thus invalidating the submsision. At least you have knowledge that it works out successfully, even if the created pokemon still has a 4x weakness to Ground-type attacks but has a Water immunity that makes up for it. :)
  • srk1214: I like the idea of phazing as a concept; it was, out of the first few entries, the concept that caught my eye. The most prominent problem/topic to discuss about phazing is it always having to go last, unless it is called upon by another move. Someone in IRC mentioned Prankster Copycat Roar Riolu and there is also Prankster Sleep Talk Whirlwind Murkrow, two users of priority phazing that are held back because of their lack of bulk and, ultimately, if pulled off, PP. On the other hand, an unprepared team in Balanced Hackmons can quickly lose to a Giratina with Copycat and Whirlwind. Writing down my thoughts much more may resemble poll-jumping, so I'll say that a dedicated phazer would be great in midst of ones that also act as counters, walls, and hazard setters. Maybe those roles can be secondary to its main one as a phazer. :p
  • Yilx: I forget what I said about your concept last time you submitted it, so disregard whatever it might have been! The concept seems very possible by using residual damage. Playing mind games over sustaining a core without brute damage would have to rely on that; perhaps switching in and out will cause the person to take hazard damage, and ooh! Dismantling a core by having one member of the core switch in so much it can't take a hit (so there's some force involved) would be fun. Then the concern would be shuffling the members of the core.
    Hmm, that was quite tangential. There's more than one way to crack an egg, so to twist adages. Cores can be built around to offset their underlying weaknesses. I'm questioning if dismantling a core is equivalent to eroding the foundation of a building so that it will easily topple if a force pushes on the construction. That's a question to be answered about the plausibility of the concept. It's an idea that's interesting to investigate, but it's less interesting to me to create.
    As for your response to my concept: Of course it has to be refined. I'm not suggesting we dump all of the moves I looked at onto a pokemon and hope for the best. If an option exists, it does not mean it is worthwhile. If an option exists, other options would have to work in conjugation with it. Like teambuilding. Sharpening the role of this pokemon would be a nice topic of discussion in Concept Assessment. :D
  • The Steam Punk: I feel like it's a bit flat of a concept, especially since Blissey, at least in previous generations, was the single stop to special sweepers. All right, it does not cause those sweepers to faint immediately, but it's still a ginormous stop to a sweep. The idea feels done, but if the idea is focused on a set of pokemon that aren't easily stopped, I could see the potential in the idea.
  • vyomov: Hail has been talked and done and theorized very frequently. My interpretation of the concensus is that: It's nearly impossible for a single pokemon to bolster the effectiveness of Hail, because Hail would need multiple pokemon to help it (hence why Hail teams in CAP have multiple CAPs) and pokemon used on Hail against other weathers are likely to be used on other weathers against other weathers. Additionally, stacking pokemon that are helped by Hail creates a weakness to Hail's common enemies that are prevalent in OU: hazards and Steel-types, most prominently. On the other hand, Pokemon that support Hail are not dependent on it, so attuning a CAP to be a Hailmon or Hail supporter will respectively detriment Hail teams or have it not solely work in Hail.
  • forestflamerunner: The idea is slightly confusing. A pokemon like another pokemon but is more diverse compared to that pokemon? But it's not intended to be like the pokemon in terms of role? Reworded, I could think about it like "a versatile pokemon that doesn't actually emulate a better OU pokemon". Are we comparing a created pokemon to a similar, real pokemon in terms of these roles and viability? The example you gave was simple outclassing. o3o Furthermore, unpredictability can be tackled, but not through this lens, in my opinion. Prediction, strategy, and the mistakes that go along with it make another CAP concept--one that Base Speed has addressed in more depth.
  • LimaPro643: I'll have to agree that this resembles many sweepers in OU and some pokemon in CAP! The idea has been done, inadvertently or not, unless you can determine any questions that haven't been resolved that relate to the concept.
  • Scorpio/Spork: Ah, forme changing. It's a popular idea, certainly, and it can be done within the limitations of CAP (even if many things that normally allow for move changes are prohibited by its rules. I'm sorry if this isn't exactly your idea, but I thought of using Power Trick so that a pokemon would be able to sweep/defend within a same battle. It's an interesting way to change a pokemon's stats that helps it with versatility.
  • Base Speed: As previously said on IRC, high-level mistakes amount to misprediction. Entire concepts based on prediction have been submitted previously, and, while not bad in terms of analyzing the metagame, seems quite vague. Pokemon boils down to game theory with a dash of randomness. Randomness can't easily be limited (unless that's the focus of a CAP, like ShinyRegice's submission). Would a CAP created with this concept put game theory into its favor through typing, switches, and moves? There's a bunch of vagueness that would have to be resolved. :) And a bunch of math, I'd expect. I thank your support for my idea.
  • Deck Knight: Hrm. On one hand, the concept is great as the basis for a CAP. On the other hand, the idea doesn't personally interest me. I don't have many concerns, so keep the idea. :D
  • ShinyRegice: The more I think about this, the more I think that whatever luck it will regulate will not be of good use to the rest of its team. Let's say that we give a pokemon Shell Armor and Telekinesis. Okay, it will be able to reduce critical hits to itself and get perfect accuracy on moves on the enemy. How does it interact with the rest of the metagame? The closest a team gets to limiting luck is by use of Gravity, and that is still quite infrequent (this goes in accord with a potential rare move in my concept). Otherwise, it's difficult to reduce luck in a game for more than just the CAP.
  • The Leprechaun/HuzzahMaster: Like above, Gravity is used but rare, and Fidgit's ability to lengthen Gravity's duration probably comes as the best CAP can do. Under current rules, custom abilities are banned. Thus, I do not think there can be any better way of fulfilling a way to improve Gravity.
  • NinjaStars: This applies to quite a few pokemon in OU and some CAPs as well. Cloyster was in UU last generation until it got Shell Smash and became fearsome, as an example. What's there to ask about something that's rather commonplace and known?
  • DarkSlay: Hmm. A pokemon that focuses primarily on versatility would be an excellent way to show that we can tackle this idea after Krilowatt's failure. :) A pokemon's role is slanted by its teammates and archetype. We've given previous CAPs wide movepools, and there tends to be a 'standard' set that outclasses other ones. I'd like to see a CAP where there is no standard because what it can do is unaccomplished by the current OU metagame. That's sort of a concept in of itself, isn't it? ...Well, I like the concept, as long as its atypical. :)
  • SubwayJ: I thought of Nidoking when you brought the idea up on IRC. It does use Earth Power as a STAB, but it also uses its great special movepool to hit many pokemon for super-effective damage. I fear that a CAP with this will simply have a wide movepool, good offensive stats, and a useful ability to make up for its lack of STABs. It feels... obvious to create? Something like that. Something that won't garner too much discussion and resolution. :/ Sorry!
  • Eagle4: Moves with effects tend to be non-offensive, or offensive with weak base power. :p That is true. Are there any moves that have high base power but are not used? Gunk Shot? Zap Cannon? Hmm. I suppose it's easy to see where a CAP will go with that if those sort of moves are chosen.
  • Rafikichu: Oh, one of these concepts. I figure that you're new to CAP, as we've had a few weather-related concepts before--the most recent being Malaconda! A pokemon that can stop other weathers will just be used on other weather teams to stop their weather. v.v We've questioned that and that's been answered. An analysis of the OU metagame shows that at least half of teams are weatherless. That in of itself cuts into your questions that imply the dominance of weather.
  • jynx KB/Solstice: Honestly, this idea can't be implemented for the OU metagame. It involves bringing an Ubers threat back, and that can't be done. Additionally, one counter to a threat does not prevent it from being in Ubers. You've seen Excadrill, right? Conkeldurr, Azumarill, Gliscor, or an Excadrill of your own was able to defeat opposing Excadrill, but it meant that teams were required to keep one of these pokemon to prevent a loss. The metagame suddenly revolved around keeping Excadrill on its toes. When Excadrill was sent to Ubers, the metagame, supposedly, became more diverse (and Rain filled in).
  • DougJustDoug: While musing around Aqua Ring, I thought of Ingrain, then of other residual recovery moves. I thought that Ingrain, while normally a liability to a metagame where switches are all but needed, isn't harmful if that pokemon's last. Then I ended up thinking "Hey, this fits Doug's idea!" And then I figured that that would be a nice way of carrying out a concept I had previously doubted. The other idea that followed that was a pokemon whose best STABs are U-Turn/Volt Switch, who would normally be incapable of carrying a sweep but can if it's last. Okay, so the possibilities are there. :) I'm in favor of it as long as we don't err and have it become sweepy like some CAPs.
  • Svenwill: There's a bit of your idea that reminds me of the forme change ones others have suggested, being able to switch from one role to another mid-battle. I see that being possible with Power Trick. I would like to see this happening in a battle; Meloetta has shown how interesting such a pokemon can be played, and I wonder how such a pokemon will influence the OU metagame. The idea brings out a bit of fanboyism (fangirlism, technically, but that usually implies something else) in a good way. :D
  • Homeslice: We did this last generation with Fidgit and, to a lesser extent, with Colossoil. Not that that's bad, but what differences do you suggest from then compared to here? Is it Fidgit for Gen. V?
  • fatty: I'm up for a quickstaller, as it would be a neat change from the traditional team archetypes. I'd like to see how a CAP invigorates a style of play not common in OU. :)
  • senshidenshi: Remember that this pokemon is intended to work in the OU metgame, so it has to be effective in some way. Take a look at the BST of previous CAPs and compare what they were intended to do to what they actually do. This may help or hinder your idea. o3o
  • erisia: The idea's similar to Homeslice's, though it differs by solely removing hazards. I can't predict, actually, what this CAP might do to the metagame, and that's what intrigues me. It's a tad hard to imagine, since most teams in OU take into account hazards while teambuilding. Would Yanmega, for instance, suddenly leap in as a major attacker in OU? Or would teams simply reorganize to take out the hazard controller before it can stop the setting of or remove hazards? I'm interested!
  • Birkal: Oh, you. :p Taking an underlying idea to multiple concepts and making it a concept of your own! I'm not sure how I feel about this, partially because of being territorial (so to speak) toward my own idea, which was inspired by something that would inspire you as well. The idea of an enjoyable metagame is something that has tugged those who play OU. It is a reason why some people believe certain pokemon or abilities should be banned. And here we are at CAP, where such changes can be possible, by not removing pokemon, but by adding one. My concern for the idea is that 'enjoyability' is subjective, compared to concepts such as 'type balance' or 'versatility'. I fear arguments arising from that subjectivity.
  • Oglemi: I'd love to have this as part of a CAP, though as a concept in of itself, it may feel flat. I've noticed that many OU pokemon have multiple movepool options, even when its movepool is supposedly limited. Any offensive pokemon has the option to put up a Substitute and work with that. Exceptions are Forretress and Wobbuffet; the former, because it's a defensive pokemon that can't do much except set up hazards, and the latter, well... it can Tickle or Safeguard or Destiny Bond, but there's not much variety in what it does. All right, I'm mentioning examples of pokemon with small movesets, but what does that mean (I'm talking to myself here)? It reiterates the question of a pokemon's viability and place in a metagame. Thus, it prompts those who are curious to investigate by creating a CAP, thus completing the recursion of concept executability.
  • capefeather: We're not necessarily putting focus on a single move. The example I gave has Sigilyph using multiple rare moves in conjunction with each other with great effect. We can stick all of the moves I mentioned into the CAP's movepool, if we want (don't), and see what movesets using them work well, or we can choose a certain few moves and build around those. Does this clarification improve your thoughts on the concept?
  • Hyperbeem: In short, I like the concept. I'm concerned over how to execute it, though. Game Freak seems to be doing what I presume you're doing with the Fairy-type (your examples are Dragon-types). It could be interesting to compare/contrast how our counter to uncounterables compare to Gen. VI's Fairy-types. I just wish the concept wasn't so late, as it feels defeated by Game Freak's own implementation within a few months.
  • MCBarrett: On IRC, there was a discussion over stopping the moves U-Turn and Volt Switch versus stopping the strategy that accompanies it. The strategy of Volt-Turn involves switching to pokemon like an offensive core that can break through pokemon that would wall one member of the core without losing momentum. Portraying U-Turn and Volt Switch as safety nets, intriguingly enough, is something I haven't heard. Halting Volt-Turn would cut the safety net and bring a new layer of strategy. How significant this is compared to other forms of offense or switching is a question I'd love to see resolved. I have to be honest, though, it's not as intriguing as other concepts, but I'll be fine with it if the idea is chosen as our concept.
  • Brammi: The General Description confused me, so I read through your Justification and Explanation. I still don't get it beyond 'a pokemon that has to be played at the right time'. I mean no offense, but could you provide a clearer example of your concept? :/
  • RudyxKam: Okay? Aren't there examples of bulky sweepers in the OU metagame? Ubers? CAP? o3o What questions are there to resolve that haven't been answered already?
  • Canis Majoris: Ah, Petrogeist as an actual CAP! Sort of. I like how concrete the concept is while being relatively original. I also like how this pokemon would invite competitive players to take a second look at a pokemon beyond the obvious. Beyond that, though, I wish I could pull more questions out from the concept that haven't been answered already. One of CAP's intents is to bring a better understanding of the OU metagame, and I don't know if your concept will give a better understanding other than asking players to look beyond first impressions.
 
I should probably have drafted from my dot points before posting.

Ok, so the idea is that it would be a Pokemon that is easily counterable by a large array of threats, but is able to be tweaked effectively and in numerous ways to give it an opening to break games open. Kinda like how Empoleon in 4th gen wasn't that great outside of a set that was one of the most potent special sweepers in the game and a defenisve set that sent some top threats packing. The Pokmeon was widely regarded as a strong Pokemon despite being situational and hard to use effectively. You have to know your numbers to use it kind of thing.
The cap could go multiple ways were my concept picked to fulfill this, we could go for a jack of all trades / master of none type deal. Or a wall that is immovable when it comes in at the right time while falling flat if it can't get 'safe'. It would all depend on the answers to the Concept Questions.

Does that clear it up at all?
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I added a few more competitive questions, and before that I fleshed out the explanation a little more. What I'm really looking for is to explore the concept of revenge killing and chip damage on a Pokemon that can't cause a sweep all by its lonesome. Where is that line between threatening relevant revenge kills and being a sweeper in your own right.

For reference, added:
What is the balance of damage before something goes from a competent revenge killer to a sweeper in its own right? (i.e. if a Pokemon can do 43% to a threat with priority is it more likely to be a sweeper because its STAB is, for example 2.5 times more powerful?)
What prevents a revenge killer from becoming so effective it becomes a sweeper? Is it merely a lack of viable boosting moves in a competitive environment, or are there other elements?

The questions are similar, but one asks a question that gets into relevant calculations. The other question asks about how we differentiate roles in Pokemon that often have similar stat spreads or capabilities.
 

Base Speed

What a load of BS!
@Quanyails, thanks for your feedback. It actually quite closely resembles the sort of discussions I'd like to see if this concept won. While I'd like to incorporate a lot of what you've said into the submission, I fear openly stating might be detrimental to that discussion. That said, I have edited my concept to essentially answer yes to the question you asked in your feedback.

I've also had a fairly big redraft of my concept, the biggest part being a change in the description from just "mistakes" to "skill-based mistakes" in a bid to clear up ambiguity once and for all. I'm hoping that makes it really clear that this isn't about RNG luck or low level mistakes. I've also worked hard to make the whole thing way shorter, as it was easily the longest concept out there and that could've been scaring some people off and frustrating others. I hope it's all been improvements. Let me know if there's anything else I should change or if you're happy how it is now.

Anyway, I'll try to edit this later tonight to add some last minute feedback for some of the newer submissions. Hope I'm not too late!
 
Re: DougJustDoug

I don't know how often it plays like this, but thinking about it, isn't Sigilyph a great example of that in this generation? It's "immune" to status, it sets up by increasing its defenses, it can't be worn down, and, in the last pokemon slot, is immune to the easiest stop: phazing.

That said "Sigilyph but better" isn't a terribly interesting approach, but it's an interesting place to look.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Edited my concept sub to add a little more in the explanation. Lots of good options to choose from for the slate. I'm excited.
 
[/LIST][/quote]
Hm. I guess I didn't look into the other tiers. I completley overlooked the bulky sweepers already there.
 
Four of this generation's five CAP concept submission threads produced slates of length 7. My slate is of length 9, which should take it to a multiple bold vote poll as far as I can tell. I don't think I can remove any of these from the slate in good conscience, and it will only add maybe a day to the polling, so I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

Quanyails
reachzero
Yilx
Base Speed
DarkSlay
SubwayJ
DougJustDoug
Homeslice
Birkal

I've gone over all of these in my previous two posts, so I'll explain relatively popular (double digits in likes) exclusions and relatively unpopular inclusions. Scorpio's concept has gotten a lot of interest, but I really don't see a way to do it legally and/or without causing a mess in the process that probably wouldn't be appropriate for this CAP project. As for notable inclusions, I find the Homeslice's concept relevant to overall discussion of the OU metagame, and I've warmed up to Base Speed's concept as a way to try to look at the skill factor in Pokemon again.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top