CAP 17 CAP 6 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment 1

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Yilx

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  • Icicle Crash and variants could be cool but existing pokemon don't enjoy sitting and waiting to be hit. Combining them with Analytic would be an interesting path to go down.
  • There's a bunch of multi-hitting moves that simply by merit of belonging to neither Cloyster or Cinccinno are pretty much never used, like Barrage, Dual Chop and Arm Thrust. That'd be interesting to look at.
  • Speed lowering moves, like Bulldoze, Icy Wind, Electroweb and Low Sweep have shown they have potential, but haven't really been explored much outside of Technician Breloom.
  • Circle Throw, Dragon Tail's Fighting type variant, also sees little use due to poor distribution.
  • Crush Claw, interestingly enough, has ShadowStrike's much coveted 50% chance for a defense drop. We all know how fun that can be
  • Lastly, there are moves that take a fairly significant cut in base power for a heightened chance to induce status, like Force Palm. For most pokemon that trade-off doesn't seem worthwhile, could we make it so?
And lastly, a note on Technician and Prankster. They're very much the obvious option here and I'd like to just say, sometimes the simplest solution is the best. I fear people want to be overly creative and shun these abilities because they work too well. Please don't do that. There's no shame in using these abilities.
Icicle Crash is used ALL the time on the mons that receive STAB and can use it. Unless you were thinking of Avalanche, judging by the second part of your post?

There is a reason why people don't use Dual Chop and co, especially Barrage. Cinc and Cloy use them the best because their damage potential isn't left up to the god of hax to completely rule over and that's after you overlook the imperfect accuracy that these moves bear. (come on barrage is 15 BP per hit lol)

I'd like to address Circle Throw the same way I'd address moves like Quiver Dance; if a mon could use it, it would already have done so. There are hardly any super bulky fighting types in OU that can properly run it, which is why we don't see it. Same way Volcarona is the ONLY mon in OU that runs Quiver Dance; nothing else gets it.

Crush Claw is an interesting option to look at, but like you said, we don't really like leaving things up to luck.
 
I'd like to see a fast Aerodactyl or Mandibuzz like pokemon that can adeptly use moves such as Theif, Swagger, Foul Play, Psych Up etc.
A fast pokemon with good bulk can go a long way with moves like Theif and by disrupting the rhythm and game plans of their opponents. (i.e stealing leftovers, berries, choice items etc.)
Foul Play and Psych Up can flip matches on their heads by using the opponents stats and momentum against them. Foul Play punishes physical sweepers and attack boosts by nearly OHKO'ing anything with a high attack and a neutral defending type, such as Haxorus. Foul Play can also be used in tandem with Swagger to not only confuse a defending pokemon, but also double the damage of Foul Play. This can be absolute hell for any special attacker or supports. Psych Up although more gimmicky, can punish a foes set ups by using these boost as your own weapon. Foes such as Conkeldurr and Toxicroak become less that threatning after you copy their bulk ups and punish with a special attack. This does take more foresight and cunning to use however.
 
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Level 51

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With regards to suggestions above, I think that among the moves that have been mentioned, Soak and Weather Ball sound like pretty good options, and could potentially be very interesting in this context (imagine using Soak for real! :o!)

I also personally have a few suggestions I'd like to throw out first;
  • Hex is the strongest Special Ghost-type move out there... if used on a statused opponent. Still, 100 Base Power (same as Judgment!) is nothing to scoff at and could be very strong!
  • Magic Room has very interesting ramifications, given the degree to which OU Pokemon depend on their items (Leftovers, Choice Items, etc). Item-less OU (at least for 5 turns) could be an exciting possibility.
  • Wonder Room could also be interesting but will probably travel down the same route as Heal Block and Me First, with its use being incredibly niche and requiring a ton of prediction (especially given its lowered priority bracket).
  • Reflect Type could be potentially be really great on a tank/wall. Barring turning into the same type as a Dragon or Ghost or something, CAP6 could reflect the types of Pokemon trying to hit it SE and continue with its tanking/walling. Of course it'd have to have an OK amount of Speed to pull this off, but it's worth a shot.
 
Power Trick: I think this one has serious potential! I mean, the only mons that have the defensive stats to actually pull that off are Shuckle and Forretress, both Pokémon who crumple under offensive pressure themselves after using it. There is also of course, the unexplored version, where you can use an extremely offensive mon, and use Power Trick to wall physical hits that'd normally KO you. Role shifting via a move is something I think is extremely under explored as well, so choosing this move would lead to a less straight forward CAP, hence why this may be my favorite option!
I agree here. Pokemon that sound mighty pretty using it would be the aforementioned Shuckle and Forretress, but the end result from them actually using it is pretty saddening, as it requires too much setup in Trick Room because of their feverish Speed and less than glorious post-PT defenses (or very sickly, in Shuckle's case). Or another example of a Power Trick user, (don't bite my head off for this, but...) Medicham, is one of the Pokemon that gets a move with potential, has a decent enough Speed to use it without much setup, but can't because of the stats in alters would be too small for the wasted turn.

The CAP could definitely use a move like PT to change from a lure to a tank in a turn's time.
 
Maybe I should say something, don't hurt me.
  • Flame Charge - Could give CAP 6 bit more underused boosting move. Its main reason of underusage is that its users 1. Are already fast enough or too slow to really benefit from single boost 2. Are specially oriented 3. Have Quiver Dance. It is a fun move. But not maybe the move you should base the whole CAP.
I also like idea of Avalance and friends and Belly drum.
 
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Blue Frog

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There are a lot of moves that have interesting effects but are held back by drawbacks like low base power, being very situational, being based on luck etc. Some of these moves can have their weaknesses made up for with the Pokemon's ability (like Technician, Serene Grace, etc.), and also maybe other things too, like the other moves that the Pokemon can use in conjunction with that move. I'd like to put out a few more moves that could be potentially viable (but maybe not):
  • Punishment could be used, especially to stop Calm Mind users, but it's held back by its low Base Power prior to the opposing Pokemon's setting up and its low PP. It's very situational, and may not be worth the moveslot.
  • Snarl is a cool move that lowers the opponent's special attack with every use, but it has low Base Power and lowering special attack isn't especially useful. Lowering special defense would be much more useful. Speaking of which...
  • Acid Spray has depressingly low base power and terrible coverage, but it may have a tiny bit of potential on a bulky Pokemon or something. I don't know.
  • Echoed Voice is pretty cool too and can get really powerful if your Pokemon can stay in long enough to use it to its full power, but it's extremely weak starting out and is stopped by ghost types and phazing and a lot more common things in OU. Arceus has it and doesn't use it, though maybe if the Pokemon were based around the move, it could be a lot more viable.
Okay, that's all I've got. I hope some of these moves are worth salvaging, but it's possible none of them are. Hopefully, though. Discuss away.
 

erisia

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I think that we'd have to be careful in the moves we choose to make the most viable with this Pokémon, to avoid it being a one-trick Ponyta. I mean sure, we could make this Pokémon the best user of Flame Charge ever, but that would make for a fairly boring process and end result (a speed-booster with Fire coverage). I think that the moves we choose to highlight should have wide-ranging effects that can be abused in multiple ways and in multiple situations, to really make the most of this concept.

Thus, I think field effects are the way to go with this concept, as their long duration and far reaching effects can allow for many strategies to be formed around them. Here's some ideas I have for how field effects could be abused by CAP6 in general.
  • Magic Room (held items have no effect) could be put to excellent use by a hyper offensive team to prevent its sweepers from being revenge killed by Choice Scarf users (eg a lot of Base 120+ Speed threats just overwhelming the opponent's offensive teams), although the lack of Life Orbs on your own team could be a disadvantage. Alternatively, you could make a defensive Magic Room user that becomes impossible to break through when opponents can't boost their attacking power with Life Orbs and Choice items, making your whole defensive team more difficult to break through.
  • Gravity is obviously a big contender, as being able to sweep through the opponent's team with high-powered Ground moves, alongside now-perfectly-accurate coverage moves like Blizzard and Focus Blast, could be an excellent offensive strategy. Not to mention the utility of perfect-accuracy Sleep and Burn moves on the right user.
  • Wonder Room (swaps defensive stats) could make for an interesting "mixed" wallbreaker that shifts the opponent to its weaker defensive stat before using its high-powered STAB move (eg Hydro Pump, Outrage, etc) while also simultaneously patching up its weakness to attackers. For example, if CAP had something like 100 / 120 / 60 / 60 / 120 / 60 stats and is normally walled/threatened by Skarmory/Hippowdon, it could use Wonder Room to both make its attacks more potent, and to defend against a super-effective Brave Bird or Earthquake more effectively. Importantly, it would also let teammates follow up the sweep; if the opponent was preparing for late-game Terrakion by keeping physically defensive Skarmory and Gliscor around, they are going to be in a pretty bad place if Wonder Room is up when it switches in. Mono-physical and mono-special teams would highly appreciate the versatility that Wonder Room brings.
  • Trick Room is the most generally-viable of these concepts but also deserves mention; messing with Speed dynamics can have far-reaching effects, and creating a perfect user of Trick Room that synergises well with its abusers could re-invigorate the entire playstyle and add a ton of diversity to the CAP metagame. It's probably the safest bet if we're going for an unusual field-effect abuser.
This is just speculation, but I think that making CAP6 a good abuser of moves with far-reaching effects is the way to go. I also support Heart Swap, as that move has a lot of utility and hardly any distribution at all. If we were basing the Pokémon around a move that would only affect itself, then this is the strongest option in my opinion.
 
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scorpdestroyer

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I would also prefer a Pokemon that can abuse field effects the best. erisia has already mentioned some, but the ones I like the best are Gravity and Trick Room. This is because they have effects that actually allow the user to abuse it, rather than relying on situational means eg. what the opponent does, who it is etc. Gravity is the one I'd like to see used (probably because it's the less commonly used one), but I wouldn't mind Trick Room either because bar Reuniclus, there aren't many great users of the move that can actually take advantage of it, at least in OU (and it is a legit strategy, screwing up speed tiers and whatnot). I'm pretty intrigued by Wonder Room as well, but I'm not sure how well we'll create that effect, and the thing I'm more worried about is that people don't use it at all since unlike Trick Room or Gravity, it isn't easy to create a CAP mon which people will prefer to use Wonder Room over a standard set.

Edit: I'd also like to bring up Torment and Disable. We know about TormenTran in DPP, and currently SubDisable Gengar but right now, there aren't many great users of the move in OU, especially Torment. The reason these moves succeed is thanks to their awesome typing. Could we create something that can abuse these moves well?
 
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I'd also like to list Bide
Bide is a very underrated move as it can help walls deal truckloads of damage with the aid of taunt. Regrettably, Bide has poor distribution on mons with good defenses and isn't an option for the majority of sets.

Soak seems very interesting as well and I can't wait to see what happens next :)
 
The biggest problem I see with Bide as a choice is that despite the fact that is gets priority and can be devastating if it works, it's still going to be nigh impossible to make it work as a starting point because if it is the focus, everyone will know, this Poke is going to Bide at me so I should set up instead or taunt it or do something to scout. If the Bide mon ends up tanky to abuse it then it will likely have less than stellar offenses making playing prediction games not effective.
There's also the whole protect stopping it thing couples with a free switch. Mon goes bide, you attack. urn two you switch to a mon with protect. Turn three protect as it unleashes and hurrah you got a free attack.

There's a difference between something having no good abusers and a move that is unabusable.

I want to put my support behind a move like Gravity which is a move that has some very clear benefits. Not trying to poll jump here, but it is easy to make ways to really get the most out of gravity through some very strong inaccurate moves, special side has zap cannon, thunder, fire blast etc. Physical has dynamicpunch, stone edge, hustle (hey it's an option, not trying to poll jump) AND the best bit about a move like Gravity is the other cool moves it makes usable. Nothing abuses Zap Cannon, very few mons abuse dynamicpunch even though every mon and it's mother has it. Non spore sleep moves are notoriously unreliable. Will-o-wisp loses it's hax weakness.

So yeah. Thinking about how this CAP is supposed to use lots of cool moves that aren't really used. I feel that the options that a true gravity abuser would bring to the table would create a very nice mon that can still go many interesting places. We'd also learn alot about the metagame from playing with it as well, what works well with Gravity. There's an article on-site for the move but it's kinda ignored.
 

Base Speed

What a load of BS!
Bide. Is that seriously being considered as a valid option? Bide is abysmal. You either combine it with Taunt and waste 2 moveslots or you just become total set-up bait. You've still got to avoid being 2HKOed and unless we give this pokemon Shadow Tag (dear god please don't do this) then your opponent can just switch around to avoid its effects.

Gravity and Trick Room on the other hand, are good and I'd like to put my support behind them. Don't think I need to bother repeating everyone else's reasoning on this.

An Electric or Grass type 'mon with Soak also sounds like a concept-fulfilling idea. However, given we've seen Necturna do this already, might it be worth doing something more original?

Belly Drum and Heart Swap + Drawback moves also sound like neat approaches. I think for these to work though, Movemon will need to have a level of unpredictability and so these can't be its only option.

Lots of cool ideas though. Very excited to see where this goes.
 

Bughouse

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I really like the idea of Serene Grace + moves that have great secondary effects (no flinching moves though!! We do not need more RachiKiss shenanigans.)

Stat modifiers: Crush Claw, Meteor Mash, Crunch, Rock Smash, Fiery Dance, Shadow Ball, Mist Ball, Luster Purge, Octazooka, Mirror Shot, Mud Bomb, Muddy Water
Paralyzers: Force Palm, Spark, Body Slam, Bounce
Confusion: Water Pulse, Rock Climb
Poison: Poison Jab, Poison Fang (toxic poison!!), Sludge Bomb
Burn: Lava Plume, Scald
General Lolz: Tri Attack

Additional strategies I like include Wonder Room and Me First, both of which came to my mind when I first saw the concept. They have been argued for and against, and I think I'll weigh in later, if needed. I'm not a fan of Gravity and Trick Room. Those moves are about team support, not the success of an individual Pokemon, which is how I think Quanyails' concept should be read.
 

phoopes

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imanalt said:
Doom desire / future sight: both of these have the same effect, so although typing and power are different, im lumping them together. Both have the potential to allow you to effectively hit twice in one turn, allowing for extreme wallbreaker potential. However, they both also allow resists to switch into them, weakening the move and making it an essentially wasted turn. Could we figure out how to punish this? Probably, but its my biggest concern about these moves.
How is imanalt the only person in the thread to give Doom Desire/Future Sight a mention? I feel like these would be excellent moves to use with CAP 6, as setting up future damage on an opponent is a concept that has gone completely unexplored so far. As imanalt mentioned, these moves could be used to break walls, allowing your sweeper to get through and sweep an opponent's team. Another thing that these have going for them is that they received a power buff in Generation V, with Doom Desire reaching 140 Base Power and Future Sight having 100 Base Power. Combining one of those two with another high-powered special attack seems like a fantastic way to break through special walls. In addition to this, a Future Sight/Doom Desire can break Multiscale, allowing Dragonite to be taken out by a teammate that would normally only 2HKO or 3HKO.

But of course, like imanalt mentioned, the opponent can simply switch into a different Pokemon that resists the attack. So how do we punish this? A non-wallbreaking option for CAP 6 with Doom Desire/Future Sight could be a hazard setter that utilizes one of these moves. That way, even though a switch-in would take a resisted hit from from one of these moves, they would still be punished via Stealth Rock or Spikes. After switching in a Rapid Spinner, the turn that they use Rapid Spin would be the turn getting hit by DD/FS. Though it resists both moves, this is a good way to break Forretress' Sturdy before it could potentially set up its own hazards.

Oh yeah also these moves hit through Wonder Guard, Protect, and Detect.

Overall, I feel that Doom Desire/Future Sight is a unique, unexplored concept that allows us to build a Pokemon with multiple strategies in mind. Will it be a hazard setter that uses this move to punish opponents for switching even more? Will it be a wallbreaker that uses this move to get the extra push needed to sweep? Will it be something else? Doom Desire and Future Sight allow us to build these concepts without being so focused on the Pokemon's ability, as other moves need to be viable. Typing does play a factor, as you'd probably want a Steel or Psychic type using their respective moves, but I think overall the options are broader if we have Doom Desire/Future Sight be the staple move behind CAP 6's moveset.
 
A concept I would love to see explored more is ability control. Worry Seed/Gastro Acid, and to a much lesser extent, Simple Beam are all very niche, but have applications for preventing setups. Whimsicott is an excellent abuser of Worry Seed, but rarely runs it because it has such a huge support movepool and its generally outclassed. But messing with an opponent by preventing Vaporeon from properly using Rest, getting rid of Levitate on key threats, dropping Technician off of a Scizor or Breloom, getting Rid of Poison Heal on Gliscor, nulling Flash Fire on a Heatran so that it can get wrecked by fire moves under sunlight, or getting rid of Multiscale on a DDnite so that it can be OHKO'd by a teammate with Ice Shard are all viable and varied situations where nulling an ability would be extremely worthwhile. If CAP6 had a limited support movepool with the right tools to focus on ability nullification, it could be something worth exploring. Basically, I'm proposing a Whimsicott with better defenses and a much more quirky movepool so it can stop setups/stalls due to abilities, and not too much else, lest it become a new Whimsicott.
 
Some of the moves I want to take a look at are the stat debuffers like Screech/Tickle or Rock Tomb/Acid Spray. It's pretty obvious that stat lowering can be effective with intimidate acting as a strong buffer against physical attackers. Moves like tickle could potentially helpful in that they can simultaneously weaken an attacker while softening it up for potential attacks. Of course, these moves aren't used all that often because they can be so easily countered, but I really feel that these moves have potential.
 
Bide is horrible, stop mentioning it. Swampert could use it if he wanted and he doesnt for a reason.
Right now I can only put my support behind heart swap and avalanche and co. because things like reflect type and future sight are actually being explored in OU already, reflect type Latias and future sight espeon exist, trust me.
Quash is an option, I don't totally remember the effects off the top of my head so of someone does could you please post them for me (can't get to a comp right now, I'm pretty sure it has something to do with priority and when the opponent moves)? I wouldn't be highly apposed to using something like camouflage to change types either. Right now my favorite idea is analytic + avalanche and co.
 
Torment sounds good at first, since it is an underused niche move that can be used to shut down choice users. However, it would be difficult to implement successfully as landing a torment on a choice user would force them to switch out, possibly into a non-choiced counter, therein dealing no damage and forfeiting the momentum. The only way this could be semi-useful is if you torment the choice user on the switch, forcing them to switch out, but who would switch a choice-user into a torment abuser?
Bide is also horrible for the obvious reasons (i.e. try staying in against band terrakion)
Quash, like Follow Me, only has an effect in double battles
Soak, Gravity, and Trick Room all sound like better options.

edit: Shadow Tag + Torment would be broken. Don't go there.
 
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Right now, I'm a fan of Conversion and Doom Desire/Future Sight

Although to contribute, I'd like to think a cool way to go with this would be Metal Burst. A seldom seen move, which has quite interesting effects. I think that Metal Burst would be an interesting thing to build around as it is not easy to use without proper dedication. It's not as easy to throw on as Counter or Mirror Coat due to the reduced damage as well as higher priority, however it still is certainly possible to use successfully.
 

The Leprechaun

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If field effects are being widely discussed, I'd also like to add Memento and Healing Wish to the conversation. This is taking inspiration from Ben Gay's TR team which uses a Cresselia to set up tr then lunar dance on the next turn to get in the next poke for free. Possibly even Explosion can be used for this purpose. With these moves in use it will help making a team around these field effects, and in gravity's case especially, it could help raise the usage of lesser accuracy moves which aren't seen as often.

I'd also like to throw my support behind offensive stat modifying moves mentioned by srk, I definitely like the idea of fiery dance and meteor mash getting some more usage, especially if serene grace is going to be considered an option. I think we could have a relatively unique poke if this strategy was used.
 

forestflamerunner

Ain't no rest for the wicked
I feel that there is a lot of untapped potential in "situational" moves and we shouldnt label these moves as prediction heavy so haphazardly. We should take deep hard look at each move and see if the move can be used in a consistent way. Consider disable on gengar. Disable is a gimmicky option on almost every other pokemon that gets it (a lot of pokemon get it btw), but thanks to gengars useful immunities and high speed, gengar manages to use the move very effectively and walls a decent chunk of the metagame with it. I imagine that this concept will produce something very similar to sub disable gengar, so before we label snatch or copycat or snatch as gimmicky, I suggest we try to figure out how we could best support those moves with typing, stats, etc. in order to get the most out of them and cover up their potential flaws.

Now onto the moves I like for this concept

Metal burst: this is a move no one has really talked about yet, and i am not really sure why. It is an amazing move that is more or less a compromise between counter and mirror coat, and could give defensive mons an interesting way to strike back against todays super powerful threats. The move can be supported in a variety of ways, like giving it immunity to status via typing or ability or always letting the mon get a hit in with sturdy. There are a lot of interesting things we could do with this move.

Trapping moves (mean look, fire spin, etc.): trapping moves are generally considered bad because the opponent will often switch to a pokemon that counters your mean look user before you have time to get the move off. There is so much that can be done with a pokemon that is stuck in place. The question then becomes how to a) discourage the opponent from switchin even though he or she knows its about to get trapped, or b) how to take advantage of the now trapped counter that the opponent just sent in. I'm fairly confident that with the right moves, stats, etc. we could find the answer to at least one of these problems.

Belly Drum: this is an amazing case of risk vs reward where, in this generation, risk has always outwayed the reward. It would be interesting to see how we could counteract the massive risk associated with using belly drum to make it a viable option on any pokemon.


So yeah. Those are the moves I like for this concept. In general i am not a huge fan of the moves that require an ability to be effective because they more or less suck the discussion out of the ability stage, which I think is a bad idea for this project. I would really like to hear some supporters of such moves to explain either a.) why their move doesn't pigeonhole us into a particular ability or b.) if you agree your move pigeonholes us into a particular ability, why do you still support that move?

For reference, i believe copycat, heart swap, and me first all pigeonhole us into choosing prankster later on down the road and almost all of the attacking moves with secondary effects or below 60 bp pigeonhole us into using serenes grace and technician respectively.
 

Quanyails

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There are posts currently in the thread that consist less of "What would make [move] usable for this pokemon?" and more of "[Move] is a neat option, why don't we try it?". When you discuss moves, try to imagine the pokemon around it. A usable Power Trick pokemon might be a frail physical sweeper that can switch its attack and defense to halt an incoming revenger (if it outspeeds), though what would stop it from ditching Power Trick for another coverage move and just having it act like a standard sweeper? On the other hand, if the Power Trick pokemon has a diverse physical movepool and has a great defense and speed, but no boosting moves, it could use Power Trick to 'set up' and sweep. (Or it might be used as a wall. That'd be up to the hypothetical playtest.) How useful a move might be depends on what the pokemon we create is like.

For those who are curious, my idea originally started off with Reflect Type. Latias could use it against Scizor to deflect a would-be detrimental U-Turn, but it's quite specialized and, to repeat the page on Smogon, easy to play around. It's more likely that a Tyranitar could come in and give Latias a new plate of weaknesses. For the move to be useful, reliability would be needed. Limiting switches to allow set-ups seems like an obvious choice, but that in of itself allows the pokemon to work without dealing with its supposed checks and counters. That may fit the concept in one way.
 

Nyktos

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A lot of moves have been brought up in this thread. I don't yet have a strong opinion on which one would be best for CAP 6, but here are my thoughts on a few of the ones that have been mentioned.

I initially liked the idea of Me First, but after thinking about it a little bit more I came to the conclusion that building an entire Pokémon around this move is actually an atrocious idea. That's not to say the move itself is inherently terrible: with Prankster, or just a high speed stat combined with the right typing and stats, it could easily be a pretty effective gimmick...but still a gimmick. The problem with this move is that it is incredibly easy to work around: if it's seen coming, it's a completely free switch or an opportunity to use a move you resist that hits CAP 6 hard, if you have one. Obviously players aren't always going to see it coming, but the fact that it only really works when one doesn't see it coming makes it a terrible choice for a Pokémon's main claim to fame. Me First is much better when it's not on the most common set, so focusing an entire process on it is counterproductive.

Tailwind is another move I liked at first, but ultimately I just don't think we can do much to get around its limitations. The Tailwind users that exist now are not that bad, at all. The likes of Tornadus and Suicune are not top-of-OU material, but they're certainly good enough that it's hard to claim that they're the reason Tailwind doesn't get any use. Tailwind doesn't get any use because it's just not good enough in singles: four turns is just too low-impact, especially when one of those turns needs to be spent switching. (And there's no way around the switching: Tailwind's buddies Trick Room and Gravity have found some success on Pokémon that don't plan on switching and instead just use them to support themselves, but when you do that with Tailwind it's a bad Agility.)

Soak is cool, but basing an entire CAP on one set of a previous CAP doesn't sound like a very interesting project.

Trick Room really doesn't seem nearly underused enough to me. Sure, it's not tearing up the metagame, but Trick Room teams are reasonably popular even if they're not super-impressive, and the likes of Reuniclus in BW1 OU and Cofagrigus in UU have already shown how good OTR sweepers can be. We already know that this move can be good in the right circumstances, and we have a pretty good idea of what those circumstances are. What is there to learn from this?

Belly Drum is one move I actually do like. I'm not going to say I love it, but it seems to me that this is a move which is very powerful but which is rarely seen in OU, and which has a reasonable path to becoming good that doesn't completely railroad the process. There are certain abilities which would clearly be helpful here (Gluttony, any of the low-health boosting abilities), but it doesn't at all force us to use one of them. Similarly, it constrains the stat spread a bit, but still leaves room for different options. (Do we go bulky enough to take a hit at 50%, or fast enough to not have to? Do we make the Attack stat actually good, or will it require the boost to do real damage? Et cetera.) While we may have a pretty good idea of the role it will fulfill, I don't think it's incredibly obvious at this stage exactly what route we'll take to get there, and that's a good thing for sure.
 
I'll add in my support for Future Sight/Doom Desire. This will allow for powerful wallbreaking, but more important, will give us plenty of material to work with in the project. We can really focus on how we punish switches, if we do so at all, combat the lost momentum from using one of those moves, and I think both of those issues have plenty of workable solutions.
 

Arcticblast

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A note on Heart Swap - I once posted a concept called "Boost Thief" (idr which CAP) revolving around the move. Somebody else pointed out that for Heart Swap to be particularly effective, it needs either high Speed, amazing bulk or Prankster, which would narrow down the CAP too early into the project.
 

Jaiho

bandy legged troll
I too like the idea of Doom Desire/Future Sight. Unlike most of the other moves debated, like wonder room, snatch, and bide, these moves have a 100% chance of working, and have a goal that is not circumstantial. I feel with the right combination of base stats and dual STAB, the Pokemon could be almost a pseudo-phazer that could capitalize on the opponents switches.

However, I don't think that moves boosted by either Technician or Serene Grace or even No Guard should be taken out of consideration either, since they are equally underused, and already have a precedent in both Jirachi and Scizor (and I guess Machamp?).

Gravity is worthless in comparison to No Guard, anything that wants to use zap cannon/inferno/dynamic punch should have No Guard

Trick Room is another move that I don't believe should be considered, as there are plenty of Pokemon that can use and abuse Tm 92, with Reuniclus, P2, Conkeldurr, V-Create Victini, and even Escavalier being just a small group of Pokemon that thrive in it. Trick Room's problems are beyond users, it is the mechanic of the move itself, with only 4 turns to use it before it fizzles out, giving so many Pokemon only limited time to do what they want. Now if there was an auto-Trick Room ability that last 5 turns, or an item like the Heat/Smooth/Damp/Icy Rock or the Light Clay for Trick Room, it would probably be infinitely more viable, but there isn't, and that isn't the point of the concept or even CAP itself. Plus designing a generic slow, fairly bulky Pokemon with a sky high attack stat isn't very interesting.
 
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