Lower Tiers BW NU Viability Rankings

Yes, as I said, Mightyena is prone to get walled, but moxie + sucker punch is still a niche and, imo, shouldn't be overlooked as unviable or gimmicky.

Additionally, I question Combusken's current status of B-rank. Combusken does have speed boost, and fire/fighting is a pretty cool offensive type, but despite having high-powered moves such as fire blast and focus blast, it's really quite weak. I've used Combusken in the past and I always overestimated it's offensive prowess way too much. Also, fire blast and focus blast tend to miss all the goddamn time.
If one decides to use the SD physical set, Combusken is seriously too frail to set up on anything, not to mention it's actually pretty slow b4 some speed boosts.

Btw, even Carvanha has a higher base Atk and Speed than Combusken.
 
I think that Samurrot should be demoted to Low S-Rank or High A-Rank. Samurott is still a good pokemon, but I don't think that its the same level as some of the other S-Tier pokemon. Samurott is very slow in the current metagame, sitting at a sluggish base 70 speed. This means that many common offensive pokemon, such as Swellow and Jynx can outspeed and OHKO it. The SD set doesn't have this problem thanks to Aqua Jet, but I would much rather use Carracosta as a physical Water-type, as it has Rock STAB and the ability to boost both its attack and speed. The special set is an amazing wallbreaker and does very well against stall, but doesn't do very well against offense thanks to its low speed and average defenses.

Overall, Samurott is still a major threat, but its flaws make it more suited Low S-Rank or Top A-Rank IMO.

As for Floatzel, its very similar to Zeb. All it really has is Speed. If Zeb is C-tier, then Floatzel C-tier worthy IMO.

Sorry if I came off as confusing.
 

Punchshroom

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Where are you even coming up with 252 SpA ice beam? Ice beam is used on less than 4% of floatzels, while hydro pump is used less than 3%, so it really is irrelevant for the common floatzel. Yeah sure, if there is a full investment in SpA, of course Floatzel and basculin will do heavy damage (basculin only gets surf, but with the adaptability ability makes up for the power while keeping accuracy). But hardly anyone uses max Special attacking floatzel or basculin, and if they do, simipour is better. And Taunt is also used very rarely, so that's not that relevant.
Relying purely on usage stats to determine a move's viability isn't very much justified, or that would mean SwagLiepard is its most effective set (which we all know it isn't). Besides, mixed Floatzel is perfectly viable.

Serperior and Sash Kadabra can't switch in at all to basculin either, as even a waterfall is going to do sgnifiicant damage to Serperior. Basculins run Choice Band 58% and Life orb 20%, while for floatzel it's 43 choice band and 30 life orb. Basculin is more predictable, but floatzel also almost always carries waterfall/crunch/ice punch/ filler move (usually aqua jet, sometimes brick break or switcheroo), so it's more predictable than you think (certainly not using hydro pump or ice beam, both of which Basculin run more often(surf for basculin.) The unpredictability isn't huge.
Again, usage stats aren't everything. It is precisely because physical Floatzel faces so much competition with Basculin that a mixed set allows Floatzel to differentiate itself by hitting many things Basculin's Aqua Jet won't.

Again, who runs LO Hydro Pump? Yeah sure, you think even waterfall will get off more damage than basculin as basculin is slower. Too bad only 1/3 people run +speed floatzel, while over 85% scolipede have +speed nature, so you are usually not getting off any hits. And if you run + speed, basculin's power is even more prominent.
I do, because getting OHKOes on stuff like Torkoal, Piloswine and Scolipede makes it more effective than Waterfall IMO. I'm assuming those people are running Adamant CB Floatzel on a Rain team, as they cannot afford the speed drop otherwise. With the Rain boost, physical Floatzel's advantages over Basculin become clearer, as Floatzel becomes crazy fast and can spam Waterfalls, while Bass's speed is untouched and usually just dishes out boosted Aqua Jets.

Too bad very few people use taunt. That is like saying to watch out for hp grass or toxic on basculin for alomomola. It works to defeat it, doesn't it?
Offensive Floatzel don't use Taunt, but Baton Pass ones can definitely use it well to perform their job better by preventing status, phazing and Haze itself. Sure, you can run those moves on Basculin, but is it doing its job better by sacrificing one of its moveslots for a very situational attack?

Get what you are saying, but life orb also give basculin freedom to switch moves, while toxic, hp grass or ice beam can be used to give alomomola and tangela competition
Those are also options, but considering Basculin's main niche is a powerful Aqua Jet (and other Water moves), it is in many people's interest to boost that Aqua Jet as much as possible to improve its revenge killing ability.

I'd be fine for low B if Basculin also gets the chance :)
Personally I feel Floatzel's speed is more important in this meta as compared to Stage 8, but I wouldn't be opposed to this either.

I think that Samurrot should be demoted to Low S-Rank or High A-Rank. Samurott is still a good pokemon, but I don't think that its the same level as some of the other S-Tier pokemon. Samurott is very slow in the current metagame, sitting at a sluggish base 70 speed. This means that many common offensive pokemon, such as Swellow and Jynx can outspeed and OHKO it. The SD set doesn't have this problem thanks to Aqua Jet, but I would much rather use Carracosta as a physical Water-type, as it has Rock STAB and the ability to boost both its attack and speed. The special set is an amazing wallbreaker and does very well against stall, but doesn't do very well against offense thanks to its low speed and average defenses.

Overall, Samurott is still a major threat, but its flaws make it more suited Low S-Rank or Top A-Rank IMO.
Samurott is slow yes, but its bulk does enable it to take one strong attack before going down. It is one of the hardest pokemon in the tier to switch into: physical and special sets can very easily rip apart the wrong switch, the former with Swords Dance and the latter with immediate power. I don't really know where you got the idea Jynx can OHKO Rott when Energy Ball is non-existent, and since Samurott's speed doesn't matter against offense anymore, it can invest in HP to survive attacks like Swellow's Facade (which I have seen it do) while still packing enough speed to cause defensive teams trouble. Also when comparing SD Samurott to SmashCosta, the latter has annoying weaknesses while the former has Torrent to take advantage of the fact that it receives more damage from physical attacks compared to Costa, and of course Samurott's bulk is still usable after boosting.

As for Floatzel, its very similar to Zeb. All it really has is Speed. If Zeb is C-tier, then Floatzel C-tier worthy IMO.

Sorry if I came off as confusing.
The base power of attacks can sometimes make up for lackluster attack stats. This is why Combusken and Seismitoad (both having 85 offenses) can be considered decent attackers thanks to their 120 base power STAB(s). Floatzel can also be considered in that category. Pokemon like Zebstrika (and Carvanha) do not have STAB moves strong enough to make up for their average power. This means they can only really target pokemon weak to their STABs or coverage moves, while the pokemon with strong attacks can still leave a good dent against unresisted foes.
 
Pretty much what Punchshroom said. I personally do run LO Hydro Pump, as I've found it to always be more effective than Waterfall. I could natter on about Floatzel all day but I'd probably save it for an actual thread about it. But in counter to the Zebstrika point, Zebstrika's main physical STAB cuts into its life and it has worse coverage options than Floatzel, and on the special side it's similiar aside from Overheat, which again limits its staying power.

I wouldn't be entirely opposed to Basculin moving to B-rank; it's a bit of a one-trick pony but a very good one, so if it can watch out for Ludicolo and Jynx switch-ins it should be able to do fine. I'm slightly concerned because it can't even guarantee a 2HKO on physical Mandi even with Rocks, though.
 

scorpdestroyer

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I'd like to push for Drifblim for Low A-rank. Drifblim is a Pokemon with numerous advantageous resistances and an immunity to Fighting-types as well as Rapid Spin. This allows Drifblim to fulfill many roles on the team. Both its sets are extremely potent. AcroBlimp is just great, making use of its flying STAB, Unburden and a combination of Will-O-Wisp and Destiny Bond allowing it to either late game sweep or remove/cripple opposing Rock- or Electric-types that try to defeat it, possibly paving the way for a teammate to sweep. SubCM is something I've not used extensively, but does lure in some would-be counters and smack them with a doubly boosted Shadow Ball, also paving the way for it/a teammate to sweep. Unburden allows it to outspeed most of the meta after a boost and leaves it virtually unrevengable (bar priority and like Scarf Zebstrika or something) meaning that it can usually hit something / use Destiny Bond before it faints. It is weak to Stealth Rock which limits its opportunities, but most of the time it can take advantage of its typing to threaten the opponent out. Its ability to remove so many threats and pave the way for a teammate's sweep, as well as occasionally do a late-game sweep, makes me feel it should be A-rank at least.
 
Modest Scarf Zebstrika hits 496, and the standard 200 Speed AcroBlimp hits only 492 after Unburden. That... is really weird. I'd say that people should always run 204 speed on AcroBlimp so that they can avoid the fastest scarfer in the metagame. Especially considering this:

252+ SpA Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Drifblim: 404-476 (91.6 - 107.93%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO

But yeah, that kind of raw speed combined with a pretty wide movepool makes me thing that Drifblim should be a bit higher. Low A for sure.
 
Just throwing it out there that Drifblim should be running Jolly max Speed. The purpose of Drifblim is to cripple its checks and counters with Will-O-Wisp and to have a fast Destiny Bond to take out anything that could normally revenge kill it. Hitting hard with Acrobatics is only a perk of using it, really. That said, you want to make sure that you can outspeed as much as you can before the Unburden boost to make sure that you can actually -get- the Unburden boost to begin with. When you use Adamant and don't fully invest in Speed, you're limiting the things that you can come in on and get the boost from.

At any rate, Drifblim is really cool, and I'd be fine with Low A-Rank as well.

Also, if Raseri would like to pipe in here, he brought up a cool Calm Mind Ghost Gem set in the now playing thread when I brought up Ghost-types that sounds perfectly viable and keeps Drifblim from being too predictable.
 

Punchshroom

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I'm not too keen on weakening Blimp, and I think Adamant is still fine on it. You do miss out on Adamant Sawk, but you should really come in on their ineffective Choice move anyway. Both AcroBlimp and Calm Mind Blimp are really interesting sweepers right now.
 

scorpdestroyer

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Oh cool Drifblim even outspeeds scarf Zebstrika, great. Make that Motor Drive Scarf Zebstrika coming in on Thunderbolt then :)

Yeah I agree with Adamant max speed because Drifblim's speed is doubled anyway, and more often than not you'd use Acrobatics after coming in on something that can't hurt you.
 
I'd like to nominate Maractus for Low C Rank.

Hear me out. I know Maractus is outclassed in many ways by the more notable grass types in the tier, and I'm aware that one of its only recognized niches is Chlorophyll + Spikes. However, I have found another use for Maractus that allows it to function as a potentially game-changing lead, being a surprising offensive threat while maintaining its invaluable utility in Spikes.



Maractus @ Focus Sash
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 40 SAtk / 216 Spd
Naughty Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Grass Knot
- Sucker Punch
- Spikes

Maractus has a niche in being the only Spikes user with access to Bullet Seed (Cacturne can only have Bullet Seed with Sand veil). This also means that Maractus is the only Spikes setter that can OHKO Golem with 3 hits from Bullet Seed. The EVs and nature maximize Maractus's typically mediocre attack stat, which allows it to score an extraordinarily valuable KO on Golem if given the chance. The second move, Grass Knot, is for straight up OHKOing most Golurk, assuming they don't invest a lot into bulk. The speed EVs are for outspeeding 252 speed Golurk, which I thought wouldn't be necessary, but I've been running into a ridiculous amount of max speed Adamant Golurks lately. The EVs are subject to change, because Maractus can use all the SAtk it can get against Golurk to guarantee a KO. Moving on, Sucker Punch is just a completely unexpected attack coming from Maractus, and it has decent power being a fully invested priority attack. Spikes are the real reason I use Maractus, but I believe that the aforementioned attributes distinguish it from the small amount of Spike-stacking competition it has.

Water Absorb allows Maractus to come in on stuff like +2 SS Gorebyss, Seismitoad, Alomomola and Samurott, expecting them to go for their strongest STAB move against something like Eelektross on your team. Water Absorb negates all hazards damage taken on the switch, allowing Maractus to use its Focus Sash and STAB Grass moves/Sucker Punch to ensure that the water-type threat is eliminated even if it is behind a Sub. In the event that Maractus is switched in on something like Alomomola who will surely avoid getting KO'd, you can always just use the opportunity to get up some more Spikes.

This isn't to say that Maractus can be thrown on any team. The team I use does not have rapid spin support, which compels Golem leads to try and set up SR on turn 1. I have a Golurk on my team, which lures in pokemon like Jynx and Haunter on turn 1 as they may expect me to lead with Golurk. Jynx will most likely opt against putting Maractus to sleep because it can outspeed and go for the OHKO Ice Beam. Focus Sash allows me to live the hit and prey on Jynx's garbage defense with Bullet Seed, more than likely bringing it below 25% to KO with Sucker Punch, if not straight up KOing it with Bullet Seed. Similarly, Haunter is a common anti-Golurk lead and will often fall to Sucker Punch if leading against Maractus. The fun doesn't stop here; Seismitoad is another common lead against an expected Golurk, and it will most likely switch out allowing an opportunity for free Spikes.

TL;DR Maractus has some of the most devastating surprises of all the seemingly unorthidox pokemon I have tried in NU, and it's definitely worth trying out. As for the nomination, C Rank may be giving it too much credit but I believe it deserves at least some attention, and Low C Rank doesn't seem to exist. Judging from my experiences using Maractus, it's an impressive pokemon that performs well in its niche and Spikes are already amazing in NU. Unfortunately it remains overshadowed by its competition in other roles.

Maractus at its best: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nu-42789059
 
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Why would I ever use that Maractus set over Cacturne, who has higher Attack, STAB on Sucker Punch and even Swords Dance to distinguish itself from its cactus counterpart?
 
Yeah, I'm gonna go with that.
Maractus has a niche in being the only Spikes user with access to Bullet Seed (Cacturne can only have Bullet Seed with Sand veil).
I've been trying this out, and it's actually really cool! It's definitely an anti-metagame lead at the moment, with its ability to beat a few of the common rock setters right from the start. However, other anti-leads all seem to crush it pretty badly. I don't know if it's quite on the level of Ampharos, Zebstrika, or Volbeat in C rank, but I suppose we'll get to splitting that at some point. At least low C sounds good.
 

Blast

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I think Maractus deserves a ranking, but probably D-Rank would be best for it. There's literally only one move--Bullet Seed--setting it apart from, say, Cacturne. Aside from that, it's completely outclassed; both have Spikes, both are immune to Water, but Cacturne boasts so many more things Maractus doesn't. This includes higher offenses, STAB Sucker Punch, and ways to boost his offense. Bullet Seed is cool, but I don't see that putting Maractus anywhere higher than D-Rank. Besides, it's not like other Grass-types don't get Bullet Seed: Torterra, for one, also gets it, and Torterra can even set up hazards too (Stealth Rock).
 
Maracus has significantly greater defenses and speed than its evil cactus counterpart.

lol but not really. Bullet Seed is pretty much the only main attraction, albeit a significant one, but Maractus also that surprise factor going for it. Considering that SD Cacturne is considerably more dangerous offensively, it may not have the opportunity to get up Spikes because the opponent will be focused on taking it out as quickly as possible. Furthermore, Cacturne's Sucker Punch is more expected and thus easier to play around.

Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the NU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in NU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.
This seems like a fitting description for Maractus. I change my nomination (from C Rank) to Low C Rank. I mainly just wanted to give Maractus some well-earned attention as an anti-lead, and it at least deserves a spot somewhere on this list. The D-Rank and C-Rank descriptions are a bit similar, and I feel that Maractus belongs somewhere in between. Its niche is definitely notable.

EDIT: I'm tempted to try out Bullet Seed Torterra. It's a solid pokemon overall with more power behind its Bullet Seed and access to SR, and it also has base 56 speed to troll base 55 speed Golurks lol
 
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do we have to nom random bad mons for D? Isn't there something better that can be done.

Also C-rank is being divided now gogogo
 
Is there a more appropriate place to post about a random bad mon with a niche that is actually relevant in the current metagame?
 
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There's not. We just want to focus on dividing the higher ranks before we start worrying about getting Pokemon out of D-rank. NU Conquest focused a lot of our attentions on E-rank, so a lot of us got distracted with that for a little while (myself included), but I think the priority right now is finishing higher ranks first. :)
 
linoone and fraxure for top c because strong threats that can easily sweep through teams
i have been using linoone recently and it has been really successful (moreso than i expected) with the bellydrum set and the cb set is a decent revenge killer and it can switcheroo to cripple walls
fraxure is just amazing because of dragon stab and dragon dance and with its stats it outspeed up to swellow and can ko nearly every offensive threat
taunt lets it set up on common walls such as alomomola and mold breaker allows it to break through sturdies of golem, probopass, or bastiodon
cb is also really strong with its high attack and high base pwoer attacks allowing it to break through most teams pretty well (usually 1 for 1 due to good bulk)
 
Also like half of E-rank probably has some microcopic niche that makes it usable on 1/10000 teams. Doesn't mean it should bt D-rank. Soon I'll post up my vision of C-rank
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

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Kay, here's some of my thoughts.

Fraxure is definitely Top C imo. The thing has no hard counters after a DD since it hits hard as fuck and Outrage+Low Kick is a brutal combination. It outspeeds a lot of things and its bulk isn't too shabby, and it can wreck shit after a DD. Fraxure is also a great wallbreaker with CB and can stop opposing SR mons such as Golem, which is a nice niche to have,

Munchlax I feel belongs in Top C. This might seem strange, but the ability to beat both Charizard and Jynx by virtue of bulk and Thick Fat is a highly valuable niche to have; while Munchlax still makes a great special wall in general because it can wall every special attacker in the tier. Its reliance on RestTalk isn't too bad, as Munchlax has amazing synergy with Misdreavus who has Heal Bell, and they wall everything together, Phazing in Whirlwind is also great. It also has a good Attack stat and a fine movepool to boot, do it can also run offensive for surprise factor that can still tank but also hit decently. Probably Top C.

Scraggy is another Pokemon I feel should be Top C, because it has amazing coverage in its STABs alone which allow it to handily sweep a large portion of the metagame with BU or DD, while it can check Jynx with its good bulk and Shed Skin. After a number of BU boosts it hits pretty hard and is a pain in the ass to take down, and can heal itself up with Drain Punch and Rest. Scraggy also has a lot of sweeping potential while it still checks Musharna really well. It's a pretty good mon in general and is Top C imo.

I'm iffy on Armaldo but it's probably Mid C to me. It sucks at Rapid Spinning and is a complete liability on most teams because of how little it accomplishes. It also provides no defensive synergy, and if you run the support set, you're not getting past any spinblockers anytime soon. It does fit well on rain teams as a spinner to remove hazards effectively and also removes Jynx and Grass-types that trouble rain teams, although Low C wouldn't be unrealistic.

Glaceon is probably Low C to me. It's not terrible, but it faces heavy competition from Jynx, who is faster and has a better movepool. Glaceon also gets wrecked by Sawk and Primeape, and typing sucks defensively.

Illumise is definitely Low C. It's not bad, but faces a lot of competition from Volbeat who has Tail Glow. It has a good niche though.
 
Top C
Altaria
Arbok
Articuno
Basculin
Bastiodon
Cacturne
Fraxure
Linoone
Murkrow
Ninjask
Pelipper
Riolu
Simisear
Volbeat
Zebstrika


Mid C
Ampharos
Armaldo
Cradily
Duosion
Electrode
Flareon
Frillish
Grumpig
Jumpluff
Lapras
Luxray
Marowak
Meganium
Munchlax
Rampardos
Scraggy
Sneasel
Vigoroth


Low C
Butterfree
Dragonair
Gigalith
Glaceon
Golduck
Hypno
Illumise
Kingler
Lairon
Leafeon
Magmar
Masquerain
Mawile
Raichu
Relicanth
Shelgon
Stunfisk
Swoobat


of course this is only a really rough look at it so far. Sry treecko for making stunfisk so low. I jsut want to psot a really rough guide so more than one Pokemon gets discussed.
 
I actually agree with most of the list.
A few nitpicks though.

Simisear to mid, Scraggy maybe to low (I have very little experience with it), Luxray to low, Lairon to mid, Leafeon to mid and Vigoroth to high (it shreds bulky offense and stall and only has trouble with Mush, Gurrdurrrr, Sawk and Duosion which all should be accounted for anyway. Cleric would be nice.) Will get more indepth if people disagree (which they surely will)

GET DERPFISH OUT OF LOW
(It honestly isnt bad either, and it's cute)

>:3
 
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Punchshroom

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I also agree with much of this list. Looking back, it might seem weird since I also supported it to drop from low B to Top C, but looking back I may have been a bit hard on Simisear. While its Nasty Plot sets and Gluttony sets are still pretty hard to pull off (but are still niches other Fire-types do not have), Simisear is arguably the most effective Choiced Fire-type in NU. Its competitors (aka fast Fire-types), Charizard and Rapidash, fare poorly with Stealth Rock in play to perform a Choice role as effectively: Charizard despises Stealth Rock with a passion (though its other sets still kick plenty of ass), while Rapidash is pretty suicidal with Flare Blitz being its only good neutral move. Simisear can hop in and out of battle with greater ease and thus have an easier time activating Blaze than Charizard does (who is basically dead if it took damage after switching into SR). The main draw to Simisear is how it has access to both Hidden Power and a Grass move in Grass Knot. This means Simisear can effectively take out Seismitoad and opposing Fire-types with Grass Knot and Hidden Power Rock respectively, something Charizard has difficulty doing. I'm not sure if this could push Simisear back into Low-B with its monkey brethren, but it's something to think about.

Also, what is Stunfisk walling? With weaknesses to Water, Grass, Ice and Ground, its Electric immunity & resistances to Rock and Flying (as well as Poison and Steel lol) are all but overshadowed. Compared to Golem who shares much of its weaknesses and resists, Stunfisk isn't strong enough, has no priority, relatively useless abilities, nor a Normal resist, in exchange for greater special bulk (hindered due to Water and Ice weakness). Basically the only reason you'd use Stunfisk over most other Ground-types is its multitude of statusing options, mainly Discharge and Scald. That's pretty generous for a low-B mon already.
 
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scorpdestroyer

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I think Altaria should drop to Mid-C. It doesn't really have an extremely good set to differentiate itself from the rest, and right now with Jynx in the tier it is extremely hard to her to go on without being revenge killed. Her Dragon Dance set is done better by Fraxure or Shelgon, both either possessing more power or bulk; her defensive set is worsened by her Stealth Rock weakness, weakness to Ice and a lot of competition from the likes of Lickilicky who can check Jynx better. Her Specs set is probably her best niche, but even then she is forced to switch often which does not work well with her SR weakness, and most bulky teams nowadays have either a Steel-type or something bulky enough to tank a hit from her. I don't think she really deserves Top-C, she should drop to Mid-C imo.
 

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