CAP 17 CAP 6 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[jas61292]

Time to start building this thing. Welcome to the Typing discussion. As you may know, reachzero will be our Typing Leader for CAP 6, so he will be the one guiding the discussion, and eventually making the slate for our typing polls.

To start, let's review our concept:

Name: Show Me Your Moves!

General Description: A good user of moves with effects not frequently used in the OU metagame.

Justification: There are many moves in Pokémon with great effects, but they often end up unused. Moves such as Gravity, Snatch, and Safeguard have potential in OU, but they are neglected for several reasons: the moves are apparently overshadowed, have poor distribution, or are inefficient compared to another strategy. This CAP uses a combination of typing, ability, and stats to make these underused moves not only feasible, but also capable.

Questions To Be Answered:

• What mechanics of Pokémon determine how viable moves are?--not only the Pokémon's typing, stats, and ability, but also its interaction with playstyles and momentum.
• What new strategies might emerge by giving a new OU Pokémon underused moves?
• What challenges do Pokémon that use lesser-used moves face compared to ones that use a more standard moveset?
• If the Pokémon has options of staple OU moves (high-powered STABs, offensive stat-boosting moves, reliable recovery, Substitute), will those moves be useful to it, even if it's specialized toward a separate and distinct strategy?
• Can underused moves increase other underused moves' viabilities?
• Can one user of a strategy unrecognized in a metagame massively influence a pre-existing playstyle?

In this thread, you're allowed to discuss both mono and dual types. Remember though, this is about typing alone, and talking about any other element of the Pokemon is not allowed. Make sure you pay close attention to the Typing Leader's words; they are the most important ones to consider in this thread. Remember, he is the one you have to convince that a type is worth slating. So, have fun, and lets make this a good discussion!


EDIT: Do not post about Fairy-type. Yes we know it was confirmed to be in gen 6, but we make Pokemon for the current metagame, and that means the 5th generation, where Fairy-type does not exist. Any suggestions of Fairy as a type will be moderated.

 

[reachzero]

Welcome to Typing Discussion, the phase where we discuss what the typing of CAP6 should be! Keep in mind that our goal is not to produce a "cool" or "novel" type combination, but one that is ideally suited to our concept. What ever else it does, our typing should aid in finding opportunities to set up and properly exploit Belly Drum.

In the Concept Assessment stage, we clarified that we should do this using several general principles:

Well, I have to say, this concept assessment has been pretty fun, and I like that we've been able to hammer out so much. We have tied CAP 6's balance to its concept by aiming to make Belly Drum the focus of its best set, but not necessarily have that be its only set. To recap some of the points made as to how we might go about doing this:

• CAP 6 should have opportunities to set up. Volcarona and Cloyster are examples of Pokemon that lose a lot of defensive capability, yet succeed as sweepers (well, Volcarona more than Cloyster). One clear way to achieve this is to have CAP 6 force lots of switches.
• CAP 6 should have focused defensive attributes, rather than necessarily relying on statistical bulk. Typing is the most obvious stage to realize this, but of course abilities and moves can help.
• CAP 6 should have a limited, focused movepool.
• CAP 6 should be largely self-reliant.
• We should look at Miltank and Flygon as primary benchmarks.

The first two bullet points are particularly relevant for this phase, since free turns are to a very great extent gained through type matchup. I feel, for instance, that is very important for this CAP to have at least one 4x resistance or immunity to a common attacking type, as that would make it far easier to gain a free turn to get off a Belly Drum unmolested. Here are some guidelines to keep in mind during the discussion:

Guidelines:
1) Pay close attention to the Topic Leader during this discussion. Their job is to keep us focused and to bring insight.
2) Do not poll jump. Poll jumping is a serious offense in these threads, and you can get infracted for it. Poll jumping is when you discuss something that should be discussed in the future, like specifying a CAP's stats or movepool. You're allowed to hint at such things to conclude a point or to provide an example, but do not centralize your post on a poll jump. Poll jumping hurts the focus of early threads and can cause us to go off on a tangent. If you're not sure if you're poll jumping or not, err on the side of caution and don't post it.

 

[Nomark]

Are we allowed to post yet? If so:
I suggest ghost-normal. reasons:

• Immunity to 3 types of priority
• Stab on two types of prio, one of which has two prio attacks
• Stab explosion, a significant move in the last thread
• Only walled by steels, which can be beaten with coverage if decided to

I know this poll jumps a little with explosion and prio, but they were pretty substantial discussion topics in the last thread, so hope it's okay.

 

[Korski]

I think we should do:

Poison/Steel
4x: Ground
2x: Fire
1x: Electric, Fighting, Psychic, Water
1/2x: Dark, Dragon, Flying, Ghost, Ice, Normal, Steel, Rock
1/4x: Bug, Grass
0x: Poison

And here’s why:

• Resistances to 11 types give CAP some major bulk by virtue of typing alone. In terms of opposing priority, this typing resists all of Extremespeed, Sucker Punch, Ice Shard, Bullet Punch, and Shadow Sneak, while remaining neutral to Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave and Aqua Jet. Outside of Ghost/Steel (now immune to ESpeed/Mach Punch), which I would also support here, or Psychic/Steel (no longer resistant to Sucker Punch/Shadow Sneak), which is a meh typing, imo, you can’t achieve this with any other typing. I don’t think I have to spell out how huge of an advantage this would be for a Belly Drum user. A Dragon resist gives CAP a shot at exploiting choice-locked Dragons like Salamence (depending on stats). A Dark resistance dissuades Pursuit to chip away at CAP’s ability to boost later. A Rock resistance lets it switch into Stealth Rock without much sacrifice and comes with a Sandstorm immunity. Poison typing gives CAP a 4x U-turn resistance, meaning our CAP doesn’t have to cede a ton of HP switching into scouts. An immunity to Toxic will give CAP free switches/setup on defensive opponents and eliminate the threat of the Toxic counter limiting your time in battle, while Toxic Spikes absorption is a key element missing from most non-Sun offensive teams.
• Weaknesses to 2 types, either of which can be immunized by Ability or easily exploited by teammates, make playing with CAP just that much easier. The glaring Ground weakness can even be mitigated by a Balloon, leaving CAP with only the Fire weakness and all 11 resistances (+Ground immunity) with which to set up. The lack of weaknesses is crucial here: with a smaller target, opponents will be less inclined to simply launch whatever they’ve got at the CAP, especially defensive opponents like Ferrothorn and SpD Tyranitar who don’t run coverage moves.
• Defensive synergy with top OU Pokes makes teambuilding much easier. Factoring in the enormous difficulty of setting up Belly Drum, being able to partner up seamlessly with such high-OU threats as Lati@s, Dragonite, Salamence, Hydreigon, Gyarados, Rotom-W, and Balloon Heatran will make CAP usage feel much more natural.
• Access to STAB priority Bullet Punch leaves the door open for priority abuse without necessarily resorting to the predictable Extremespeed (the summer months are typically inundated with crappy sequels and remakes and I’d rather not do that to Linoone). I don’t entirely agree with the priority approach when a good Speed stat can make much more of a difference, but I do sympathize with the desire for some sort of way past super-common revenge killers like Scarf Terrakion. At +6, Bullet Punch would most likely be able to handle things like Latios, Breloom, Terrakion, Alakazam, and Gengar, and would allow CAP to set up through Salamence’s Choice Scarf Outrage and pick it off the following turn. Scarf Keldeo is the only glaring exception here in terms of defense against revenge killers, but I think that’s fair (revenge killers wouldn’t be revenge killers if they couldn’t revenge kill).
• Terrible, redundant STABs may not seem like a good thing, until you consider that no one in their right mind would use both STABs on the same set, leaving CAP with an extra moveslot on average for coverage (compared to other typings where dual-STABs are the primary draw) and also less predictability. Since any typing is going to run into problems based on STABs alone, when you’re at >1000 Atk, coverage will mean a heck of a lot more than MOAR POWA. To argue that a lack of SE targets for this typing will cripple its overall effectiveness is to completely disregard the sheer power that comes with Belly Drum. Meteor Mash sits at a perfectly good 100 BP and can dumptruck its way through even defensive Politoed for the 2HKO after a Belly Drum (with only base 80 Atk, a neutral nature, and no item), and it will cleanly OHKO stuff like Thundurus-T and Jolteon, who also resist it. Poison STAB includes Gunk Shot and Poison Jab, which can get a jump on most non-Steel-types looking to absorb a Meteor Mash or Bullet Punch. The same defensive Politoed that is 2HKO’d by 80 base Atk Meteor Mash is OHKO’d by Poison Jab + SR (same goes for Keldeo, Rotom-W, and very nearly Vaporeon, to name a few “reliable” switch-ins). This is no small feat; with two more or less equally viable STAB options, along with increased access to coverage due to STAB redundancy and poor metagame relevance, the list of confident checks to post-Drum CAP diminishes dramatically with this typing. Jellicent and The Big Steel Walls of Skarmory, Forretress, Ferrothorn, and Heatran are really the top “safe” options, but the latter four will have to look out for anything resembling Fire/Fighting/Ground coverage (for example) and Jellicent will need to remain in good health to take any kind of neutral hit at +6. In any case, this list of checks-based-on-typing-alone is pretty small for +6 CAP, and much, much bigger for +0 CAP. This is exactly the sort of stuff we’ve been talking about.

This typing is more conducive to ease of setup, as opposed to ease of sweeping once set up (which I believe is far less important if you can’t set up in the first place). Even a defensive typing can supply overwhelming offense with +6 Atk, and Poison/Steel does just that. At the same time, its bulk-by-typing gives us tons of leeway with both stats and abilities to explore unique or interesting options that propel Belly Drum into the spotlight.

This will be my longest post in this thread I swear.

 

[Stratos]

I'd like to point out right now that it's far more important to resist common movesets of common pokemon than to resists typings in a vacuum. Nyttyn had it right when he mentioned Volcarona, who not only resists Scizor's common Bug STAB but also its Steel STAB and its coverage Superpower. Volcarona wouldn't be able to call itself a Scizor counter if it was, say, Fighting/Rock, even though it still 2x resisted U-turn, because it'd be weak to its other stab in Bullet Punch. Don't consider typings that counter moves, think of typings that counter Pokemon, because our CAP is basically gonna need a 100% free switch, not a risky prediction switch, if it wants to see success.

For example, resisting Fighting is nice because fighting is a fairly common typing in OU. However, resisting Fighting by being Bug/Fire is not helpful in the slightest. The three common Fighting types in OU can all beat a bug/fire Pokemon on the switch, since Terrak and Loom commonly run Stone Edge (and in the latter's case, it'll run Spore if not) and Keldeo runs Hydro Pump.

Consider typings you suggest in the context of what Pokemon they counter, not what types.

e@above perfect example

we resist 11 types with that combo, that's...great? name one common ou pokemon that means we can set up on, i can basically only think of forry that didn't volt switch out when you came in (or have eq). you only name 'choice-locked dragons' in the paragraph which is weak because i wouldn't have the balls to switch into mence before it shows it's using outrage and +1 mence should ko through a resist at 43%, whereas the only choice item dnite uses is band which is basically a +1 dnite and should ko through a resist at 43%, so i guess you can set up on -2 latios? Other than that, fighters can ko you with fighting stab, lots of pokes have ground stab or coverage, waters have neutral and thus can ko. ferro can leech seed, skarm can whirlwind, i legitimately can't think of one pokemon (again, other than forry which isnt too common) that it can beat.


edit2: in defense of an explosion to break walls:

people said 'why would i use this over kyurem-b' but they forget: kyurem-b can only wallbreak, it's lucky to get 1 ko against an offensive team. on the other hand a +6 pokemon with prio could easily sweep an offensive team with only its other two moves, and thus is never complete deadweight like kyurem-b is against offensive teams

 

[Deck Knight]

I'm going to start out on a limb here, but I think this will work out well. I've thought of two types that might really make this concept soar. I have a third idea but I'll wait and see if someone else picks up on it, I want to test drive these two suggestions first.
Normal / Steel:

4x: Fighting
2x: Fire, Ground
1x: Electric, Water
1/2x: Bug, Dark, Dragon, Grass, Flying, Ice, Normal, Psychic, Rock, Steel
0x: Ghost, Poison

STAB SE: Ice, Rock
STAB Neutral: Bug, Dark, Dragon, Electric, Fighting, Fire, Flying, Ghost, Grass, Ground, Ice, Normal, Poison, Psychic, Water
STAB Resist: Steel

Pros:
STAB on Extremespeed and Bullet Punch priority.
Resists Stealth Rock to allow for easier switching in.
Resistances give CAP 6 a plausible chance of Drumming on a variety of threats.
Immunity to Toxic and Sandstorm passive damage.
Nothing is immune to Steel STAB.
Normal gives CAP 6 an immunity to Ghost-type attacks, which at least see some use.
Extremespeed and Bullet Punch get neutral or better coverage on everything except Steel types and a few Ghost-types (Jellicent, Chandelure), which can be handled with the remaining coverage move.
Gear Grind could be used as a way to mow down weakened Substitute users trying to predict CAP 6's Belly Drum.

Cons:
Very weak to Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave - though Extremespeed outruns.
Common resistances balanced out by common weaknesses.
Extremespeed leaves only two moves for coverage (assuming Bullet Punch is not used), which opens up some offensive holes.


The particular strength of Normal / Steel is its ability to steamroll a lot of opponents that do not resist Normal and thereby mitigate its big Fighting priority weakness. Breloom has no chance of surviving a +6 Extremespeed, Conkeldurr is going to take a big hit from it. It also has a strong resistance to passive damage, meaning an opponent must be able to knock it out by attacking directly. Its resistances allow it to set up on a great deal of Choiced opponents, and Extremespeed nullifies the advantage of even Banded priority users. The ability to use Bullet Punch as a weaker alternative to Extremespeed would also give CAP6 some leeway by allowing it to forgo ES to better handle Scarf Terrakion, Gengar or other speedy ghosts, and (theory-threating) Scarf Aerodactyl.

Fire / Steel:

4x: Ground
2x: Water, Fighting
1x: Electric, Fire, Rock
1/2x: Dark, Dragon, Flying, Ghost, Normal, Psychic
1/4x: Bug, Grass, Ice, Steel
0x: Poison

STAB SE: Bug, Grass, Ice, Rock, Steel
STAB Neutral: Dark, Dragon, Electric, Fighting, Flying, Ghost, Ground, Normal, Poison, Psychic
STAB Resist: Fire, Water

Pros:
STAB on Bullet Punch.
Resistances give CAP 6 a plausible chance of Drumming on a variety of threats.
Immunity to Toxic, and Sandstorm passive damage.
Immune to Burn and its Attack drop.
Nothing immune to Steel STAB..
Fire and Steel actually have pretty good neutral coverage, considering Fire is super-effective against Steel and Steel is super-effective against Rock.
Gear Grind could be used as a way to mow down weakened Substitute users trying to predict CAP 6's Belly Drum.

Cons:
Weak to Aqua Jet, Mach Punch, and Vacuum Wave.
Common resistances balanced out by common weaknesses (Water, Ground (4x) and Fighting).
Fire has no priority, and without a recoil-nullifying ability has only Blaze Kick as its strongest physical attack.
Has a big problem in Rain and with Bulky Waters, even assuming Electric coverage.

Fire / Steel's greatest strength is that it laughs at passive damage and is immune to burn, rendering those statuses and weathers useless against it. It can also form some VERY nasty offensive combinations with a recoil-nulling ability (Bullet Punch/Flare Blitz/Wild Charge or Bullet Punch/Flare Blitz/Head Smash), or even Life Orb with Sheer Force as a potential option, given pretty much all fire-moves are effected by Sheer Force.


The idea behind both of these is the Type Defense allows CAP 6 to Belly Drum against a variety of defensive mono-type attackers, and CAP's own STABs provide some extra power on its own priority that allow it to take on a large number of revenge killers.

 

[ProfPuppyPunter]

So we've all found that instead of bulk stat-wise, we want bulk resistance wise. So why not Steel/Ghost? With 3 immunites, 12 resists, and 3 weaknesses, one being home to the popular Earthquake, CAP 6 could be a great wall while still being able to be taken down by a popular albeit predictable move. Situations can like where CAP 6 forces a switch, setting up a Belly Drum, and using another underused move, Me First, CAP 6 hits with a +6 Earthquake.

Not to mention STAB Priority, Stealth Rock resist, etc...

 

[topher4167]

I have been waiting for the typing discussion to post much, because it's where I feel I can most comfortably post relevantly. So, with that, I am proposing Psychic/Steel as the typing for CAP6! Here is my reasoning:

• Psychic/Steel typing leaves only two weaknesses, Fire and Ground, which are relatively uncommon outside of sun and sand teams, respectively (with the exception of Volcarona)
• Has 2x resistances in Normal, Rock, Flying, Ice, Steel, and most significantly, Dragon, and a 4x resistance is Psychic
• Has an immunity in Poison
• Has priority in Bullet Punch and maaaybe Mach Punch by extension, but I'm sure we can fit in other priority moves fine
• Only walls in Volcarona and perhaps sun/sand teams

EDIT: Decided to make a chart like Korski did:

4x: None :D
2x: Fire, Ground
1x: Water, Electric, Bug, Ghost, Dark, Fighting
1/2x: Normal, Grass, Ice, Flying, Rock, Dragon, Steel
1/4x: Psychic
0x: Poison

 

[The Steam Punk]

Nomark actually beat me to suggesting Normal/Ghost! I personally love the idea, and I'll elaborate on Nomark's reasoning:
Matchups:
Normal, Fighting, Ghost: 0x
Dark: 2x
Bug, Poison: 1/2x
Everything else: 1x

With only one weakness and 3 immunities to much-used priority moves, this typing lends itself to defense. However, with STAB in three priority attacks (Extremespeed, Quick Attack, and Shadow Sneak) it can hit back as well. As Nomark said, Steel-types resist its STAB's, but good coverage can take care of it. Please consider this type! It's too good to pass up!

 

[Eol]

I'll go ahead and suggest Water / Ghost.

Pros:

• Gets STAB on both Shadow Sneak and Aqua Jet, two moves which work pretty well together coverage-wise and easily complemented by a last move like earthquake or close combat.
• Immune or resists nearly all reliable priority moves, the exception being Shadow Sneak, which is seldom seen in OU. Sucker Punch can be played around.
• Able to set up on a number of popular OU mons, namely Scizor, bulky Volcarona, most bulky waters (fearing only a burn from Scald), choiced fighting-types.
• Vastly unexplored typing offensively-wise.
• Can spinblock in a pinch.
• Helped by rain.

Cons:

• Weak to pursuit and sucker punch.
• Stopped cold by ferrothorn.
• no STAB on Extremespeed which seems on everybody's mind.
• Promotes rain (but does set-up on a number of rain mons so i guess all this balances out).
• Weak STAB options (Crabhammer & Shadow Claw being the strongest options).

Note that weak STABs may be a way to balance out a ridiculous attack stat after belly drumming.

I also want to say that Normal / Steel is a very interesting idea, too.

The thing with Normal typings, though, is that i fear we'll just get something like an Extreme Killer Arceus except for OU, only deadlier and frailer. That being said, i don't play Ubers much, but maybe going on another route than just Belly Drumming and smash things is a wiser idea if the primary objective of CAP is to learn about the metagame.

 

[Bughouse]

Building off of a point from the previous thread, immunities seemed to be key here. While this can be done by ability, I generally find an immunity ability to be a cop-out, which sometimes runs the risk of fixing a weakness of otherwise bad typing (Mollux). We don't want to do that here. CAP 6 must be pretty flawed otherwise Belly Drum could end up too good. Setting up can't be super easy and risk-free, like what a Water-absorbing ability would do vs rain teams.

The two priorities I saw were either Ground or Flying type, giving us easy chances to set up on Electric or Ground moves. The problem with this strategy ends up being that there's just too much coverage to take on with typing alone.

Instead, a better path is looking for things that can be set up on. The key to focus in on is bulky Pokemon who can't successfully deal 50% damage to CAP 6. Take Gastrodon for example, there we need to take Ground/Water/maybe Ice coverage. From Jellicent, it's likely only Water, but possibly Ghost or Grass. Vaporeon and Defensive Politoed tend to fit this sort of mold too.

In reality many of the things that have low coverage and lesser power are Water types. Those that aren't, like Ferrothorn and Forretress, use Grass/Steel attacks.

It seems to me that the types we should be resisting are Grass/Steel/Water. If at least two of these are covered, we should have good, but limited, opportunities to set up. It's hardly even home free, since Ferrothorn can T-Wave or Leech Seed. Scald burns and Will-o-Wisps or Toxics from Jellicent can be an issue too. These can be partially remedied in the Ability stage to come, though, by a few routes. Gyro Balls could be neutered by having a low Speed stat, but that seems problematic for this project to many, so we do have to factor in Gyro Ball, Power Whip, as well as the various Scalds.

Trying to resist most of Water/Grass/Steel? Take a quick glance at a type chart and you realize you have many, but not tons of, options:
Grass/Electric
or
Steel/Grass itself (but I fear this typing is too good)
or
A combination involving Dragon, such as Dragon/Water, Dragon/Electric, or Dragon/Steel.

I find Grass/Electric interesting, but ultimately unpersuasive. Steel/Grass, as we all know from Ferrothorn, is a typing with untold benefits. I don't think that it is the sort of goal we should have for CAP 6.

Instead, I boldly suggest we have ourselves a Dragon/Water CAP. Yes. Seriously. Here's the thing. By picking a Dragon/Water type, we have just ensured that we have strong checks, depending on where we place our speed tier. UNLESS, that is, we get a chance to Belly Drum on the switch and have priority. Salamence will not be taking a +6 ExtremeSpeed or appreciate even a Rain Boosted (resisted) STAB Aqua Jet. This creates a cat and mouse game where CAP 6 is checked by a large portion of the metagame without Belly Drum, almost ensuring its use.
Will making a Dragon that is outsped by most (if not all) of other OU Dragons be a challenge? Perhaps. I do think however that Dragon/Water provides us with brilliant chances to set up and limited opportunities to be revenged, since we are now only weak to our Dragon brethren.

I think this fits the bill of a strong typing with clear benefits and risks.

 

[Yveltal]

EDIT: This has been heavily edited into a tl;dr post since it's conception.

Here's my naiteve chiming in, but we shouldn't be resisting as many types as possible simply to make sure that it doesn't faint on us, but there's no way to be perfectly prepared. The best thing to do, if we're going to use the type for defenses, is try to avoid as many predictable plays as possible, knowing that no one setup will be perfect. Covering one's own butt by having one type support another has the potential benefits of lessening the impact of common threats in form of attacking types. What we must consider are the common attacking types, which I believe to be Electric, Ice, Ground, and Fighting, along with the common supportive types, which I would argue are Rock, Poison and Fire.

-First off are the attacking types: The reason that BeamBolt has its popularity is because it's rare to find something that resists both Ice and Electric attacks, so the combination of the two is seen as a safe offensive setup when it's feasible; even if you don't hit every Pokémon super effectively, you're unlikely to be incapable of hitting any of them for neutral damage (at least) with any combination of an Electric and an Ice attack. Ground is there because Earthquake is another major go-to move that abuses the Ground type's heavily offensive prowess. Thanks to hitting five types super effectively, two ineffectively and one to no effect at all, Ground attacks are arguably the most useful offensive type, and as such can be a major threat and something we would want to watch out for. Fighting attacks hit just as many types for super-effective damage as Ground, and the two of them combined are often a bane to defensive Pokémon. Some OU Pokémon who have great defenses have to live in fear of one or the other, but they either get defensive support from a secondary typing, or have available moves to help cover themselves when they can outlast the opponent.
-The first two supportive types I'm worried about, Rock and Poison, come from the use of Stealth Rock and Toxic. Stealth Rock has created questionable doubt of the viability of Pokémon with a weakness to Rock types, and Toxic can set a team back by a lot if the trainer has no recovery support and they're concerned with keeping their Pokémon alive. Fire attacks are a problem because they make for good support to destroy Steel-types. It's not any more uncommon to see an offensive Pokémon use a Fire attack to break walls than it is seeing a Pokémon use a strong Ground or Fighting attack to do the job.

Between major offensive and supportive types, a good OU Pokémon should be able to resist or work around a sensible number of them. What I envision is a dual-typed mon that can cover itself defensively while still having some small exploitable holes to keep it from having broken defenses. I'm going to offer up:
Flying/Steel:
Consider nothing about Skarmory besides it's typing. Being a Steel/Flying gives it a lot of cases where it can safely come out and do what it needs to, so having a Pokémon that replicates Skarmory's type will help create the moments it needs to safely Belly Drum. Many of Flying and Steel types weaknesses and resistances (and even their immunities) complement each other to accomplish the goal of making a less scary environment to set up. After it's set up with a +6 Atk boost, it's up to the rest of its stats to determine how it engages in combat. Priority moves give it an outlet to ignore it's low health, and it doesn't need a STAB on every move it could use, since it's already amazingly strong.
Pros:
-Flying-type's resistances cover up two of Steel-type's weaknesses.
-The combination has an immunity to Earthquake and Spikes
-STAB on Bullet Punch
-11 resistances and 3 other types that would deal neutral damage means that this type could theoretically Belly Drum in many situations, even when getting attacked.
Cons:
-Volcarona and Heatran could do away with him
-anything with Thunderbolt could do away with him
-no Flying-type priority moves to get a STAB out of.

At this point, the reason this Pokémon is balanced is because it still comes with noticeable flaws that follow it's self-imposed high attack and healthy typing. Many Pokémon can exploit a weakness to Electric and Fire, but just having those two weaknesses with this Pokémon is like it's selecting which Pokémon and what types it wants to set up against. Offensively, a Steel/Flying is worth considering when the Pokémon only has a shot at doing it's best when it uses Belly Drum. A short, selective movepool may mean that it isn't going to get a lot of utility out of its STABs, so if it has it's reasons to not make the most out of it's STAB the second it enters the battlefield, it has to use Belly Drum to make Bullet Punch (or any priority technique) extra useful.

 

[Eagle4]

Hi CAP! I'd like to push for a typing which has been discussed on #cap, and is one which I feel is the best for our Belly-Drumming CAP.

Fire/Steel

Weaknesses: Fighting. Ground (x4), Water
Resistances: Poison (x0), Grass (x0,25), Ice (x0.25), Bug (x0.25), Dragon, Flying, Normal, Dark, Psychic, Ghost, Steel (x0.25)

Shrugs off priority
Fire/Steel is resistant to all forms of priority bar Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave and Aqua Jet, 2 of which are uncommonly seen in the OU metagame. This is vital as we can safely set up and sweep without being stopped. Mach Punch, which is by far the most dangerous priority to face, is most commonly used by slow Pokemon, and so we can potentially outspeed and damage the opposing Pokemon with priority of our own. The main selling point when it comes to resisting priority for this typing is Bullet Punch, which is obviously used by the most used Pokemon in OU, Scizor. With this resistance, we can take little to no damage from BP, meaning we can force out Scizor (as an example), and safely set up. It is also immune to Sandstorm and Toxic Spikes
Immunity to Status
Both Will O Wisp and Toxic could potentially screw this CAP over if not for this typing. Will O Wisp is obviously bad for a physical attacker, let alone a Belly Drummer. Toxic functions at depleting the longevity of our CAP by a considerable amount, (which is the one of the main reasons why Belly Drum Ursaring is never used.

Large amount of resistances, which is vital for survivability and forcing out Pokemon
As you can see, Fire/Steel has MANY resistances, providing it with many opportunities to force out Pokemon. Having a x4 resistance to 4 types is great, as well as an immunity to Poison. This typing can force out a plethora of common Pokemon, such as Scizor, Volcarona, Ferrothorn, any Dragon without Ground/Water coverage, potentially Gengar and Foretress.

Has super-effective STAB move against Skarmory
While not the most vital aspect, Skarmory is arguably considered the best physical wall in OU, and is certainly one of the most fearsome. Having a STAB move which would guarantee a kill after Belly Drum would eliminate that threat, as otherwise it could poses a huge problem (especially with Whirlwind).

Access to STAB priority in Bullet Punch, and Access to a speed-boosting STAB move in Fire Charge

Another typing I support is Water/Dragon, which srk1214 mentioned. I probably prefer it to Fire/Steel, although I support both.

<jas61292> Well, at this point I'm just hoping we can get through the thread without mentions of fairy.

I also believe that Fire/Fairy is a typing we should consider. It has a large amount of resistances, can force out dragons, and has good coverage with its STAB.

jas edit: Don't make me hurt you :/

 

[ghana.7]

When thinking about this, I came up with two things I wanted my typing to possess, which are:

1. An immunity to Toxic, Burn, or Paralysis

2. 2 or more immunities to COMMON attacking types. (Not Normal or Poison)



So, after seeing my thought process, my suggestion for typing is Ground/Ghost.

Defensive:

4x: None
2x: Water, Grass, Ice, Ghost, Dark
1x: Fire, Ground, Flying, Psychic, Dragon, Steel
1/2x: Bug, Rock
1/4x: Poison
0x: Normal, Fighting, Electric

Pros:

- STAB Shadow Sneak
- 3 Immunities, Two to common attacking types
- Immune to Thunder Wave (Fits in with the 2nd pro but is so important that it warrants its own line)
- Reliable secondary STAB in Earthquake
- Resists (or is immune to) Terrakion's STABs and its most common coverage move

Cons:

- Weak to Sucker Punch
- Ghost lacks powerful STAB attacks
- Misses out completely on Normal/Flying types, and Skarmory

Type Coverage:

No Effect - 24 (All Normal/Flying types)

Not Very Effective - 10 (Only relevant resists are Skarmory and Honchkrow)

Normal Effectiveness - 392

Super Effective - 243

Coverage move types that give perfect neutral coverage with the STABs:

Ice: 405 Hit SE, 264 Hit Neutral

Rock: 383/286

Fire: 380/289

Fighting: 368/301

(Korski edit: we don't need links to other websites' pokedex pages)
(ghana7 edit: yeah, sorry I was trying to copy and paste in the resistances and they turned out to be links but they wouldn't delete for some reason)

 

[TheMetaPhoenix]

Hello! This is my first post on the Smogon forums, so I'll try to follow the rules.

I'd like to propose the typing of Electric/Ghost. It is very unique, and it has some nice benefits.

4x: None
2x: Ground, Ghost, Dark
1x: Fire, Water, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Rock, Dragon
1/2x: Electric, Flying, Steel, Poison, Bug
1/4x: None
0x: Normal, Fighting

This typing grants CAP 6 immunities to the priority moves Extremespeed, Mach Punch, and Vacuum Wave.
It also resists Bullet Punch.
It's neutral to Ice Shard and Aqua Jet (although it does have the super effective STAB against Water types).
It is weak to the priority moves Shadow Sneak (uncommon), and Sucker Punch (which could be a problem).

Depending on the coverage moves, it could have trouble against bulky Steel types such as Ferrothorn and Forretress. However, it does resist Steel.

One reason I like this typing is its ability to beat physical walls such as Skarmory and Slowbro. It also should have no trouble against bulky Water types, barring Gastrodon, Swampert, and Quagsire. It can fire off a super effective STAB move, and the concept of Belly Drum works for it here because many bulky Water types are bulky on the special side (Politoed, Jellicent, etc.).

With this typing, CAP 6 could also have access to a STAB priority, Shadow Sneak.

A big problem with this typing is that it may not have enough resistances. However, only Water, Psychic, and Dragon (also Ice and Ground to a certain extent) are common attacking types. It may have few resistances, but they are useful ones. Throw in its awesome immunities, and you have a pokemon that can succeed against bulky defensive pokemon.

Water/Ground types would be a problem. However, we must remember that a Belly Drummer with no flaws can be very overpowered. However, an interesting strategy could be to pair CAP 6 with Volcarona, who could surprise Water/Ground types with Giga Drain. CAP 6 could also take care of the Water types and Flying types who threaten Volcarona.

Well, I hope you like my idea! I've been reading the CAP forums for a while, but this is my first idea submission. I can't wait to see the final product! :)

 

[Deck Knight]

Think I might have just converted to Water / Dragon. My own thoughts:

2x: Dragon
1x: Bug, Dark, Electric, Fighting, Flying, Ghost, Grass, Ground, Ice, Normal, Poison, Psychic, Rock
1/2x: Steel
1/4x: Fire, Water

STAB SE: Dragon, Fire, Ground, Rock
STAB Neutral: Bug, Dark, Electric, Fighting, Flying, Ghost, Grass, Ice, Normal, Poison, Psychic, Steel, Water
STAB Resist: None

Dragon / Water doesn't have a ton of resistances, but the ones it does have are important. It also only has one weakness and it can check that weakness with its own strengths, meaning it can force switches. It also provides viability for a potential Scarf set that can revenge kill other Dragons using STAB SE Dragon attacks.

What really drew it to me though is the kind of STABs it will have at its disposal. Aqua Jet is awesome, but I'm much more interested in Waterfall and Dual Chop. Waterfall can either be combined with an offensive Ability like Sheer Force, or used to score some pressure flinches that can increase CAP 6's KO count. Dual Chop is the real focus of my interest though, because it gives CAP 6 a STAB move that can punish Substitute. While it's unlikely to KO an opponent at 75%, weakened foes trying to get around Belly Drum with Substitute will find that strategy unworkable. I should note that Steel and Ground typings can also do this with Gear Grind and Bonemerang, respectively.

The ability to set up, a rare weakness (no Water type is going to start running HP Dragon just for this), and excellent neutral coverage and STAB moves would make Water / Dragon much more viable than it would initially appear.

 

[scrake]

I feel strongly about either Steel or Fire, both allowing setup on common steel-type Pokemon in OU. I'm not sure combining them is a good idea though; whatever typing is chosen, a weakness to fighting should be avoided (therefore Steel should combined with something like Ghost to avoid said weakness). Not only does fighting already have common priority moves, but more importantly IMO it's a very common attacking type in general and would greatly hinder setup opportunities. I would like to suggest Fire in particular, since not only does it have resistances to moves used by steel-types, like Steel, it also directly threatens them out via its STAB moves. Scaring out Pokemon this way opens more opportunities to setup, which is pretty important for a Belly Drummer. The problem with Fire typing of course is a weakness to Stealth Rock, which pretty much means that it would need to be combined with Fighting/Steel/Ground as to not lose 25% HP on switch in in conjunction with Belly Drumming. That being said I think Fire has a lot of potential with its ability to force out common Steels and or setup all over them.

 

[forestflamerunner]

I'd like to suggest Poison/Ground


X4: none
X2: Water, Psychic, Ice, Ground
X1: Normal, Fire, Grass, Flying, Ghost, Dragon, Steel, Dark
X.5: Fighting, Bug Rock
X.25: Poison
X 0: Electric


This typing is all about creating set up opportunities. One big thing to notice about this typing is that it resists Terrakion STAB combination. This means that CAP 6 can and should set up all over one of OU's top physical sweepers, and by extension, any pokemon choice locked into a fighting type move. This Pokemon's typing also allows it to force out threats such as tyranitar, who would not want to eat a STAB Earthquake, among other threats. The immunity to Toxic allows this mon to set up on defensive behemoths such as blissey/ chansey, while the immunity to electric attacks allows this mon to set up on forretress as well as any pokemon choiced locked into Thunder/Thunderbolt: Thundurus Therian and Jolteon are the obvious examples, but there are, of course others.

Poison/Ground also provides excellent utility during the early/ midgame of a battle. This typing resists U- turnand is immone to Volt Switch. Couple this typing with a strong defensive ability, such as regenrator or poison heal for example, and you have allowed CAP 6 to function as a check to the volt-turn strategy for its team. This added utility encourages players to pick CAP 6 because it does more than just act like another late game sweeper.

Furthermore, this typing could gain several new setup opportunities if we chose to give it an immunity ability. With water absorb, this CAP could set up on any Pokemon choice locked into hydro pump or surf, and can also set up all over the likes of defensive Tentacruel, Politoed, and Vaporeonand on most versions of keldeo. Alternatively giving CApmon wall Landorus- Therians that lack Hidden Power (Ice) while also being able to set up on gliscor and the wide number of Pokemon that use ground type coverage on choiced sets.

The main downside to this typing is that it is pretty lackluster offensively, but in return we get a typing littered with set up potential, which from my understanding, is the most important thing when it comes to creating a usable belly drummer.

 

[Korski]

Dragon/Water is certainly appealing, as are a number of the other typings proposed. My main concern with Dragon/Water, especially, is that it doesn't really require the boost from Belly Drum to be effective. Sure, this can be dealt with in stats by either nerfing Atk or Spe, but at this stage in the process I think it's a valid concern that a CAP with a great offensive typing like Dragon/Water might be more inclined to do anything else besides Belly Drum. I appreciate the attention to those mono-attacking bulky Waters, and I think that's a really clever approach to this CAP's typing. I won't argue against the notion that good offensive typings are good offensive typings, but I wonder still if they're what's right for a CAP we need to basically shoehorn into using our boosting move of choice.

I'm not sure if everyone is planning on switching this CAP into actual attacks and then following up with a Belly Drum sweep, but I was under the impression Belly Drum would be most successful after a sacrifice, when you are guaranteed to not take damage or get burned by Scald. At times like those, having a broad scope of resistances would actually help more than a small amount of resistances/immunities targeting Pokes that could just as easily not be used at all in the playtest, or at least used sparingly. In my opinion, decreasing the number of attack types that can hit for even neutral damage makes for an easier time setting up, especially against weak defensemons who couldn't do 50% to much of anything if they tried. Just a thought; feel free to trash it.

And Normal/Ghost has 2 enormous problems: Tyranitar and Scizor, who both pack Pursuit, resist both STABs, and can't be taken out with +6 Extremespeed unless we go with something on the order of Adamant 140 base Atk and make sure SR is down (and even that won't take out Tyranitar) or give it Fighting coverage and enough bulk to survive CB Bullet Punch (Scizor can get 50% minimum off of any neutral opponent with 90/100 or worse defenses). CAP's one shot at Belly Drumming will be exactly that more often than not, as these two Pokes offer plenty with which to earn themselves a teamslot without CAP even in the picture.

This wasn't longer than my first post I swear.

 

[Scorpio]

A few typings I'd like to suggest:

Water/Poison
4x: None
2x: Ground, Psychic, Electric
1x: Dark, Dragon, Flying, Ghost, Grass, Normal, Rock
1/2x: Bug, Fighting, Fire, Ice, Poison, Steel, Water
1/4x: None

+Resists all priority seen in OU, save for Extremespeed (Shadow Sneak is not used in OU, I checked).
+STAB priority (in this case Aqua Jet).
+Sucky secondary STAB gives us the freedom to run coverage moves.
+Rain.
+Not weak to Dark or Rock, so (most) Fighting-types won't manhandle it with coverage moves.
+No 4X weakness.
+Can't be poisoned.
+Aqua Jet takes down Terrakion, Tyranitar, and Heatran.

-Weak to Ground, though Aqua Jet could cover that.
-Aqua Jet walled by anything with a Water resist or Water Absorb, would need coverage moves to break through FerroCent.
-Possible problems: Amoongus, Ferrothorn, Jellicent, Garchomp, maybe Gastrodon.

So there you have it. While I haven't exactly looked up what this Pokemon could set up on, I did find one notable example: Scizor. Water/Poison would resist three of Scizor's common moves, and neuter Pursuit by virtue of not switching. The only obvious offensive hurdle I can see with this typing is Earthquake, but Aqua Jet should take out most Ground-types on the switch.

So there's my idea. What do you guys think?

 

[LimaPro643]

I like the idea of Poison/Steel. Though Fire and Ground are both common attacking types, a great amount of resistances surely helps it. And, of course, Air Balloon could potentially give it a free switch-in while taking less Stealth Rock damage. Unlike most Steel-types, it is neutral to Fighting. Even the great Scizor could be walled by it. Mamoswine's Ice Shard would do nothing and Bullet Punch could save the day before otherwise being demolished by Earthquake.

While its STAB coverage moves wouldn't do it too many favors, I'm sure it wouldn't mind using other coverage moves after a Belly Drum. (Plus, if the rumors are correct, this could be the great Fairy-slayer in VI.)

 

[Ignus]

At first I was slightly against having a Steel Type as the most suggested type from all of these, but now I've changed my mind. Having steel as our primary type allows us two things:
1: An ability to pick and choose our weaknesses.
Steel is generally the undisputed king of defensive types with and ridiculous amount of resistances. But, seeing as we're suddenly at half health, resistances to everything outside of what we want to hit us will give us the staying power we need to be threatening in the right situation. In a way, our secondary typing, with Steel as our first, is almost more important than our original typing. If we choose Steel/Fire, we choose to be threatened by Scarf Landorus-T and Dugtrio, with other threats including Conkeldurr and Infernape. Steel/Fire, in fact, makes us weaker to the physically sided revenge killers, while making us stronger towards the likes of Latios, Dragonite (when carrying air balloon), and Venasaur.
2: an easy way to create a space on a team.
Who doesn't want a mon with the ability to sweep AND have resistances to almost every type in the game?
Look at Scizor. It's scary.

The only scary thing about Steel types is the fact that so many Mons already have tools to deal with them. Steel's weaknesses are few, but almost every offensive pokemon has something to hit steels for at least neutral damage.
I guess we just have to choose. Do we want to build a Mon based on choosing it's weaknesses? If so, look no further the Steel/anything. If we don't, how do we choose it's strengths in such a way that it still has the power to hit hard while being able to beat it's proposed set-up targets with half health?

Remember that we can't afford to set up until our counters are either dead or dealt with. Otherwise we just have an all out attacker with 50% health, no way to set up, and most likely a disappointing track record. We need to figure out what we need to hit and survive hits from before bandwagoning onto a type. Personally, I don't feel water/dragon is the way to go. Lack of an ability to deal with Ferrothorn and Brelloom would be a constructive direction. Everything we take at half health with a neutrality is like taking a super effective hit at full. Because of this, we HAVE to resist that which we which to set up on. Taking a power whip from Ferrothorn hurts, so trying to set up on a wall such as him would screw us over before you could even say "That Hurt."
Expect all hits to be taken at half health. We have to make the risk of Belly Drum useful. We don't need to take every hit. We just need to take the right hits. Think about what the right hit is before choosing a type.

 

[Psylink]

I feel that there could some cool potential with an Electric-Ice type. Yes, we have Rotom-F, but he doesn't have the move pool we're talking about here.

Electric Moves Of Interest: Charge Beam, Discharge, Electro Ball, Electroweb, Magnet Rise, Zap Cannon.

Ice Moves Of Interest: Avalanche, Haze, Icy Wind, Mist.

Now, with my proposed typing, the damage outputs.

Defensively speaking...

4x: None
2x: Ground, Fire, Rock, Fighting
1x: Normal, Poison, Bug, Ghost, Water, Grass, Psychic, Dragon, Dark, Steel
1/2x: Electric, Ice, Flying,
1/4x: None

These weaknesses are very crippling for an Ice-type as usual. I feel that this will enforce a crippler on this CAP, along with some bad stats we'll discuss later in the process, of course, if this gets that far.

Pros:

• Best specially offensive STAB in the game.
• Hits most of OU for at lease neutral damage.
• Has potential for underrated movesets (I'll address that later. Maybe in a different thread? If you want expanation, tell me here.)
• Resists common types used in Rain, Electric and Flying.
• STAB Volt Switch if that gets on.
• Would be a huge boon to weatherless and sun teams, as a Utility Pokemon of sorts (Dugtrio Killer, anyone?).
• Prediction weapon of mass destruction against Ground types, as well as using underrated moves to take them down.

Cons:

• Horrible defensive typing.
• Weak to Stealth Rock.
• Weak to all common priority.
• Competition with common trappers and utility counters, such as Magnezone, and Dugtrio and friends.

Now, look at my "interesting" STAB list. I feel that a set for suppressing and killing types switching out of one of it's STABs could come out of those, such as Ground, Water, Grass, and some others, could be it's niche. It's typing, and Quanyails's Topic could create a very effective utility pokemon. Of course, there could also be sweeping sets based around odd setup moves, such as Trick Room, Gravity, and others. It could pull of a defensive set, the possibilities are endless.

I know, you're thinking "This is really early to think about those things, :/". I know! I'm just illistrating the potential of this typing.

Now, that's out of the way, more! I feel that to pull off lots of versatility, we should of course give it interesting moves, but stats to abuse them. I've gone too far, I know, but I love just thinking!

That's my idea, how do you like it?

 

[jynx KB]

Poison/Steel definitely has the best arguments I've seen so far. Plenty of resistances by typing alone, leaving plenty of room to play with abilities and stats. The best bonus here is the lack of offensive STABS. We wanted an excuse for Belly Drum to be the best option,so what better way than lackluster coverage that has to power through by sheer force?

Korski's case here is nothing short of brilliant, and gives everything CAP 6 needs.

 

[ginganinja]

O.k I will pretty much always be heavily against any typing that has a Water STAB, simply because Aqua Jet + Belly Drum + Rain cleaves through fucking everything. Some of you might have been there when we were discussing Azumarril and the calculations we made (assuming +6 + Mystic Water + Drizzle + Huge Power) allowed to it OHKO shit like Scarf Keldeo super easily. Like ok, thats "Huge Power" having an impact, but STAB +6 Aqua Jet under Rain just cleaves through everything, and its something I feel really uncomfortable giving to CAP 6, especially when its backed by something like a Dragon typing, giving it excellent resistances as well.

That said, I really like Steel typing in general as a good defensive type, which gives us a resistance to both ExtremeSpeed and Bullet Punch. As a bonus, it also gives us an immunity to sandstorm damage, something thats underlooked and potentially something pretty important. It isn't hard for instance, for like a Mach Punch combined with residual damage from SS and Stealth Rock to potentially ruin CAP 6 so giving us an immunity to that I think is very useful.

Fire Steel has been brought up a bit and I guess its ok. I am a little leery of it because I dislike giving CAP 6 a STAB that is boosted by weather because it screws up what beats it, and I also dislike how hard it is to set up vs water types, which are redic common. Right now, Keldeo is one of the best pokemon in the game, and I really dislike Fire / Steel for potentially making us very vulnerable to it. In addition, your STAB is weakened by Rain as well, which I don't like that much, unless it was really needed to keep this CAP checked.