Mario Kart Mafia (NOC) END: VILLAGE WINS

[Aura Guardian]

Agreeing that Celever's "not your business" thing is suspicious, and I've been suspicious of him otherwise, too.

 

[Houndoomsday]

I'm curious about this. What makes you think scumreads is more beneficial to the mafia than the village? The mafia already know who is mafia and who is village. Scumreads are a way the village can shrink this disparity in information. Yes, scumreads are also a way for scum to confuse players and cause mislynches, but without scumreads the only tool we would have to find scum would be inspects--unless you're suggesting a mass role claim?

i think from reading another smogon noc, the anti-scumread philosophy is especially one d1 when the mafia have realitively few clues, it allows them to pick a good assassination target based on who is honing in on the mafia the best. however i think that is dubious at best and the benefits far outweigh the potential downsides. posting scumreads is excellent for the village for a host of reasons, most notably documentation of peoples opinions on large amounts of other players. in the end the mafia gets a slightly more informed kill for a much more informed village, a great tradeoff for the village

 

[Shining_Latios]

I am not suggesting a mass clam at all. Neither did I say we should stop posting scum reads. What I am trying to say is that the mafia already has more information than the town and while they gather more than can easily adjust to said information and take advantage of it such as changing their playstyle. Like I said, I am not saying to stop posting scum reads as they heavily help the town as well, but the scum can use the information provided too.

AG, you say you have been suspicious of him otherwise, for what reasons?

 

[Houndoomsday]

What I am trying to say is that the mafia already has more information than the town and while they gather more than can easily adjust to said information and take advantage of it such as changing their playstyle.

Annnnnd i immediately changed my mind about you having any logic at all when you said "scumreads help mafia too much". The whole point is that mafia start with the info advantage, therefore the village should attempt to close that gap however they can. scumreads are a great way of dispersing information and reads that are correct but may not be apparent to the whole village, in addition scumreads help gather information about both the posters and their reads.

ive gotta run to a soccer match and might be able to post more this evening but no promises

 

[Shining_Latios]

Did you even read my post? I never said scum reads help mafia too much.

 

[Woodchuck]

You said that scumreads are more beneficial to the mafia than to the village. If you'd like to retreat that statement, that's fine. I do agree with you in that I'd also like to hear AG's suspicions regarding Celever.

 

[Shining_Latios]

You said that scumreads are more beneficial to the mafia than to the village. If you'd like to retreat that statement, that's fine. I do agree with you in that I'd also like to hear AG's suspicions regarding Celever.

Correct I did say they benefit the mafia more than the village. However I did not say they help the mafia too much. Their is a difference.

 

[Metal Sonic]

@Metal Sonic has admitted to voting for someone he thinks is vanilla town, which is either stupid or a scum slip.

This is a big fat gigantic misrep. 1. My vote on him was for pressure which I have said multiple times because his reads are shit 2. I think he is trying to say that he is vanilla town which means that you defending him because "PR" is bullshit and anyway I don't really believe him anyway 3. Risk = losing a vanilla townie who plays really poorly Reward = completing 1/3 of the game , yeah even in normal play not only will I vote him, hell yeah I would be fine with lynching him(not a scumtell its my playstyle) re: Shining Latios fucking over and choking a game

He also has done nothing the entire game, and like Celever until I voted for him,

Provide postular evidence

Metal Sonic, give me reads of all of the recent sub-ins as well as Blackhawk11, Jalmont, and myself.

Blackhawk, Jalmont and yourself have already been written in my reads list 1 or 2 pages back. Damn, its only on Page 2, I'd better update them. I still maintain that you are town, jalmont is slightly town, and Blackhawk is also slightly town.

Fine, I shall comment on the sub-ins.

Snaquaza: I am very paranoid of this guy, he was basically one of the most difficult-to-detect mafia in RNG NOC. Of course, I did scumread his predecessor, points for me, but when he was catching up I immediately read him as town- a mistake. In this game he has also done that catchup thing as well, so I am afraid I cannot read him properly and will abstain from judgement. I cannot read him but I'd say scum

cxinlee: Wow this guy is a poor player. Not as attention grabbing as barty though, but still poor. I'd read extreme scum if he were experienced and did this, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for not and put him at NullScum

Finally, big man Acklow. Yes, the ante has now raised. Instead of the worst-case scenario of losing a vanilla townie who can potentially ruin the game(I've been scarred from Mafia of the Depths, sorry.), we now have a chance to lose an experienced, potentially game-changing strong vanilla townie. Chance to lose a troll-Chance to Lynch a mafia ----> Chance to lose a strong player-Chance to lynch a mafia. Hmmmmm.

Logically, I'd keep my vote on Acklow because scum. But #1 scumhunter says Acklow is definitely town.

But #1 scumhunter is fired retired.

My vote will stay, for now.

There isn't a wagon anymore, anyway.


I wholeheartedly disagree with the celever wagon. I believe him to be one of the towniest here and I am willing to defend him. Especially when he sacrificed himself to let the town to victory in RNG NOC( the coinflip notwithstanding), I feel there's hope.

 

[Metal Sonic]

I'm going to answer specific questions in bold in the quote and then explain my overall reasoning below.



Just saying, I don't see how me asking barty to elaborate is not a good idea, especially when he vaguely claims power role already. Alright lets consider 2 scenarios

Barty is village with PR

The mafia knows Barty is not mafia. Therefore, Barty is a prime target for mafia, because they don't have any ideas of other village PRs, so therefore it makes the most sense to kill him. Even if he doesn't reveal exactly what his role is, he is almost guaranteed to be targeted, and killed. This again is because at the moment of him claiming power role, he shoots up to the mafia's first target. The only way he survives the night is the bodyguard a) believing him, which at the time was not reliable at all and b) deciding to protect him, again, he will need to find a way to alleviate suspicion in order to convince our hypothetical bodyguard to protect. How useful then, that he tell us about his role and help us decide that he is village! Basically, if there is no bg and/or the bg doesn't protect it doesn't hurt him to claim because he dies anyways! If there is a bg a claim will go a long way in protecting himself and denying the mafia a essential kill!

Barty is mafia

Forcing mafia to talk more only helps the village, as there is a greater chance of error with every sentence. By claiming "if you lynch me the village will regret", he manages to avoid lynching from the village without the risk of a counterclaim. If he is mafia it only helps the village by forcing him to claim and if you can't understand that reasoning you really need to leave this game.


Basically, unless I'm making huge logical (noob) errors, I fail to see how pressuring barty is not a good idea, village or scum. honestly i think this is a case of OMGUS, which is pretty understandable and an easy way to divert attention...


Also if you think if me and Celever were mafia because we were posting near each other this must be the shittiest mafia out there. no mafia would post so obviously allied. and if you look through my previous posts you will see im not exactly buddying celever, ive said he is scummy several times beforehand. in addition ms was also very critical of barty, the fact that you completely exclude him while criticizing me and celever is very scummy, as one poster put it he was "bullying celever" to put barty at l-1. why not even give him a mention? that speaks out to me and i mean ms had multiple posts calling out barty as well- its not like you missed one post he made or something, i count at least a couple

This is one of the best/towniest posts I've seen in the thread.

Houndoomsday upgraded ----> Probably Town.

 

[Eagle4]

Votecount 1.7 - Fuck Toadstool Turnpike

Celever: (3) Spiffy, Spiffy, cxinlee, Blackhawk11, Woodchuck, cxinlee, Acklow
Acklow: (2) Snaquaza, Blackhawk11, Celever, Woodchuck, Houndoomsday, Celever, Metal Sonic, Celever, cxinlee
cxinlee: (1) Acklow, Aura Guardian, Celever, Jalmont
Aura Guardian: (1) Snaquaza, Solar Vapor, Blackhawk11, Spiffy
Solar Vapor: (1) Houndoomsday, Jalmont, Aura Guardian
Metal Sonic: (1) Woodchuck, Spiffy, Houndoomsday, Spiffy
Snaquaza: (1) Jalmont, Solar Vapor, Houndoomsday, cxinlee
Jalmont: (0) Snaquaza, Spiffy, Celever, Acklow, Metal Sonic, Celever
No Lynch: (0) cxinlee
Blackhawk11: (0) Acklow, Celever
Woodchuck: (0) Houndoomsday, Spiffy
Spiffy: (0) Celever, Celever

Not voting: Celever, Snaquaza

 

[Celever]

@Woodchuck Yes I am a buddy with Snaquaza, but don't worry we're not breaking the NOC rule.

As for everybody saying my "none of your business" comment is scummy if I wasn't being seen in a bad light anyway it wouldn't look scummy. I'll put it the best I could put it; I wanted to know Barty/acklow's role for reasons nothing to do with being mafia but also reasons that I cannot relay to the town at this point but that you will find out over time.

 

[Celever]

Also @Eagle4 that is a great new avatar :P
You kicked me out of your sig though ;~;

 

[Houndoomsday]

I'm going to go ahead and post scumreads- this is mostly for my own benefit because Acklow handled the pressure vote well and I need to move it off, as well as keeping the subs straight in my head. One thing to note is these reads will be stuff on pages 5-7, as I can't spend all day on this! Also assuming everyone is a he, correct me if I'm wrong. I'll be using a scale of 0-10 to judge scum, 0=100% town, 10=100% scum

Celever- Looking back, I think it's safe to say Celever was the "loudest" in tunneling barty- he made a lot of posts and most were obnoxious (all caps or shit like that) and/or lacked content. Celever sometimes seems to be riding my dick, posting things that echo exactly what I do right after I post (if you want an example see #252, I can find more if you want though), which strikes me as odd. Celever did pretty much jack shit pages 6 and 7 though, the main being answering Spiffy's questions, but only after intense pressure (also dear god that formatting -.-'). And finally the "none of your business" comment about barty's role is what worries me the most about Celever. I explained my logic behind voting barty and asking him to roleclaim- Celever has not done that at all. Now, the only reason why I could see Celever not being scummy is because he is pretty damn nooby, but in the end I think the constant lack of real amounts of contribution to the village is due to a scum role. Scum Level: 7.5

Solar Vapor- Ugh, this is a tough read for me. For one thing he has never posted much beyond a few sentences per post. However I feel like those posts are dense and don't have much fluff so that's not as much of an issue, however I would really like to see more contribution to the village. Also the scumread thing is absolute shit. You are literally saying "Scumreads only help the mafia a little but the really help mafia over village", and this is after Woodchuck basically gave you a free pass. That seems really nooby and I honestly can't see a mafia acting that stupid. Scum Level: 4.5 Noob Level: High

Metal Sonic- His reads are spot on, however he hasn't posted much in the last 3 pages at all, which is a shame. Overall I simply can't say much. His... unique posting style makes it hard for me personally to get a read but from what I understand from his posts I really like his logic. Overall though, The aforementioned lack of content (pretty much Sunday-Wednesday) is scummy and I would like him to contribute more. The stepping down from #1 scumhunter role is still weird as hell too, but its ms, everything is weird. Scum Level: 5

Spiffy- First thing I notice is that Spiffy doesn't know putting a vote on someone doesn't necessarily mean you want to lynch them, especially in the middle of D1. There were a few other basic logical errors he made which is weird for an experienced player, but it's hard to read too much into that. He handled my suspicions very well, in page 6. He said that him tunneling Celever was okay because it showed people his scumminess, which leaves a weird taste in my mouth, especially considering how he criticized me for tunneling barty. His page 7 posts have been fairly decent, they do a good job of explaining his logic, and calling out other players for either inactivity (which I don't like all that much by themselves, but in a large post I consider fine), or poor posting.

Houndoomsday- Shitty noob. Can't handle pressure well and his logic makes no fucking sense. Lynch ASAP Scum Level: 10

Jalmont- Holy shit, in the last 3 pages he has one decent post (#281). And it wasn't all that good either. He literally just calls out snazquaza for his summaries, which is not bad but not really that important, and then defends against cxinlee. Also he doesn't explain his logic/posts useless sentences that don't help the village at all. His activity has been poor the whole game, and even when he does post it doesn't really help village. Scum Level: 8

Woodchuck- Really rails against Celever, but all of his posts have good logic. To a lesser extend he attacks Solar Vapor. His posts have been a mix of a couple of content dense paragraphs and one sentence corrections. It's hard to get a read on him though, and and I want him to post his thoughts on the "big picture", basically talk about the other players some. It doesn't have to be comprehensive scumreads or anything like that but just expand who you talk about. Other than that though, I think he is a great asset towards the village, and is a very logical presence. Scum Level: 4

Acklow- Did a really good job subbing in for a bad situation. Because of this I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Obviously I'll be reading his posts closely, but honestly I'm getting a town read, and therefore a noob read on barty. Scum Level: 4

Aura Guardian- He's really flying under the radar, as he has almost no interaction with any players beyond Solar Vapor. I was surprised by how much he posts, he seemed like he wasn't posting at all and then I went and looked and he had a pretty good amount of postings! However his reads are top stuff, especially the analysis of interactions. I'm just having trouble reading him because he isn't interacting much. Scum Level: 5

Blackhawk11- Unless I'm counting wrong, he's only posted twice in the last 3 pages. Not acceptable. I liked his reads for the most part, in both that I have roughly the same reads, and that they are clearly thought out and logical. The inactivity is very worrying though, if he was really village he should be helping much more! Scum Level: 6

Snazquaza- Beyond his short reads, he hasnt posted much at all beyond one sentence explanations of why he hasn't done his scumreads and longass summaries which don't help the village whatsoever. He needs to step up the content of the posts severely. Scum Level: 6

Cxinlee- Hasn't posted anything longer than 2 lines. Also very wishy-washy with his vote and doesn't really explain his logic. I guess some of this can be explained by his newness, but honestly you really need to step it up. Your posting isn't helping the village at all, and if you aren't helping the village you are helping mafia. Scum Level: 6.5


unvote
vote Jalmont

 

[Spiffy]

Spiffy- First thing I notice is that Spiffy doesn't know putting a vote on someone doesn't necessarily mean you want to lynch them, especially in the middle of D1. There were a few other basic logical errors he made which is weird for an experienced player, but it's hard to read too much into that. He handled my suspicions very well, in page 6. He said that him tunneling Celever was okay because it showed people his scumminess, which leaves a weird taste in my mouth, especially considering how he criticized me for tunneling barty. His page 7 posts have been fairly decent, they do a good job of explaining his logic, and calling out other players for either inactivity (which I don't like all that much by themselves, but in a large post I consider fine), or poor posting.

There was already plenty of pressure on barty the beetle at the time Metal Sonic was voting for him. Instead of sharing one of his scum reads and applying pressure on one of them, Metal Sonic voted for someone he claims is probably vanillager and on top of that was already at L-3. He claims that he misworded it but the possibility still exists that it was a scumslip. I still wouldn't say I was "tunneling" Celever, but I already explained this and I'm sorry if it came off like that (looking back I was a little over the top lol). And why don't I get a scum level? :(

Something else I noticed is that you thought barty the beetle was scummy but you think Acklow is town. We have to keep in mind that they share the same player slot, so barty's behavior cannot be completely excused just because Acklow seems village. He is experienced and very capable of fooling us.

@Metal Sonic I can't provide postular evidence for something that's not there. ;)
I still didn't like the push for barty to be put at L-1 when it was clear (to me at least) that he thought he had answered the question properly. Like someone pointed out earlier (way earlier, but I forgot who it was), barty the beetle pretty much claimed as much as he could, the only questionable party being that he couldn't share his third paragraph so: @Acklow: is it true that you cannot say anything about your third paragraph like barty said?

And Metal Sonic why are you so sold on the fact that Celever is town?

Anyway, that was a fine response but you didn't address the bullying someone into voting that I mentioned. I'd like to know your thought process behind that.

Out of everyone, I am pretty much only willing to lynch Celever and cxinlee (although to a MUCH lesser extent). @cxinlee because of his lack of contribution and I don't even know where his head is out. FireMage wasn't much better. cxinlee please post more of your reads.

 

[Spiffy]

Forget some stuff: Unvote Metal Sonic
Vote cxinlee

And I also barely know where @Jalmont's head is, and will switch my vote to him if he continues not posting (as long as I get a response from cxinlee).

 

[cxinlee]

Chill bro, I was out for the whole day, be patient and eventually I'll get my reads done.

 

[Celever]

There was already plenty of pressure on barty the beetle at the time Metal Sonic was voting for him. Instead of sharing one of his scum reads and applying pressure on one of them, Metal Sonic voted for someone he claims is probably vanillager and on top of that was already at L-3. He claims that he misworded it but the possibility still exists that it was a scumslip. I still wouldn't say I was "tunneling" Celever, but I already explained this and I'm sorry if it came off like that (looking back I was a little over the top lol). And why don't I get a scum level? :(

Something else I noticed is that you thought barty the beetle was scummy but you think Acklow is town. We have to keep in mind that they share the same player slot, so barty's behavior cannot be completely excused just because Acklow seems village. He is experienced and very capable of fooling us.

Dude, everyone has said you tunnelled on me, accept it, you were tunnelling.

He has answered it so many times, this is what I meant by repeating things already said or other people have said. Yes, he votes someone he thought was canillager BECAUSE it was a pressure vote, you've done that enough and you explained why pressure lynching was good. He has told you that 2-3 (I forgot) times and STILL you persist on that point.

He said "I am now getting a town read on Acklow and a noob read on Barty" so there you go, you're answer is already there.
Seriously that whole post was very flawed logic, furthermore you just repeated what Houndoomsday said about cxinlee except that you put a lynch on him. Basically that whole post was scummy, be it due to repeating things you've said again and again, repeating things other people have said in the post before that or STILL tunnelling on me. For goodness sake Acklow people are bandwagoning on me give it a fucking rest.

 

[cxinlee]

@Houndoomsday and @Spiffy: in general make really good posts and reads, nothing scummy I can find of them for now, these two are leaning towards town for me.

@Acklow: im very convinced he is town, gave a very good defense , and makes good reads. Imo null town.

@Solar Vapor: Doesn't seem to contribute a lot to the village. Most of his posts are in his defense, hasn't been making any scumreads lately. I think he is null mafia.

@Woodchuck: Very contributive to the town and makes good scumreads and arguments. Like what houndoomsday said, a very logical presence.slightly town.

@Snaquaza: Still very suspicious. Like I said before, didn't make very useful posts, and had to be prompted by celever and spiffy before making his reads. Says that he thinks it is me at first withouta reason, then changes his opinion saying that my posts "say enough to be leaning town".slightly scum.

Will post my current thoughts on metal sonic, celever, aura guardian and blackhawk later.

 

[Celever]

@cxinlee I don't follow your logic with Snaquaza, and do you have evidence for Solar Vapor, Houndoomsday and Spiffy? I know it is pretty darn hypocritical me using Spiffy's logic but could you provide some postal evidence for the three?

 

[Celever]

Agreeing that Celever's "not your business" thing is suspicious, and I've been suspicious of him otherwise, too.

Also @Aura Guardian I see you viewing the thread could you clarify on this?

 

[Aura Guardian]

Just a moment Celever, I'm writing up a reply to Solar Vapor. After that, sure.

 

[Spiffy]

Dude, everyone has said you tunnelled on me, accept it, you were tunnelling.

Ok, we'll agree to disagree. My "tunneling" accomplished what I wanted it to accomplish so call it whatever you want.

He has answered it so many times, this is what I meant by repeating things already said or other people have said. Yes, he votes someone he thought was canillager BECAUSE it was a pressure vote, you've done that enough and you explained why pressure lynching was good. He has told you that 2-3 (I forgot) times and STILL you persist on that point.

I get that he gave his explanation; I am saying that I thought (and still think) it was scummy. I'm not even quite clear what point you're talking about, so would you clarify?

He said "I am now getting a town read on Acklow and a noob read on Barty" so there you go, you're answer is already there.

I am pointing out that barty's behavior (whether you thought he was townie or scummy) cannot be excused just because someone who is tremendously capable of getting himself out of a tough situation (Acklow) subs in. I didn't even ask him a question about this so I don't need an answer lol.

furthermore you just repeated what Houndoomsday said about cxinlee except that you put a lynch on him.

I happened to notice the same thing he noticed. Just like how you noticed barty was acting scummy after someone pointed it out to you. There is no difference and nothing wrong with it. Using that logic everyone would be scummy for voting for you because I did it first. Do you feel that way?

be it due to repeating things you've said again and again, repeating things other people have said in the post before that or STILL tunnelling on me.

LOL I mentioned you once in that post and it was as an afterthought. You really seem to be grasping at straws to try and make me seem scummy.

 

[Aura Guardian]

@Solar Vapor: Celever's posts have just been a bit off, and the other suspicions have been enough to convince me to speak up.
Now, then: Seems I missed this question "In what ways was Jalmont being more useful and contributing more? Post examples." I GAVE THE EXAMPLE BEFORE YOU FREAKING ASKED FOR IT! The post in which he accused you alone contributed much more than your post saying otherwise.
As for you accusing me of not contributing: I need solid data for a reads on everyone all at once to be worth the time. For now, I'm just going after those acting suspicious. And those who got my attention otherwise, such as by their connections to someone who was acting suspicious. Namely, your connections with Jalmont. There are enough on Celever, and the barty fiasco I'm willing to let slide... for now. Jalmont is good enough that I need more data to go after him or not.. Meanwhile, you have yet to defend yourself instead of just counterattack. Yeah, you defended yourself some, but it was nowhere near a good defense. I'm asking about the connection between you and Jalmont, not just you defending yourself from him, badly.

As for "Your first sentence is saying I shouldn't have defended myself but then you say to defend myself"
-> You misread that. My "no" was to NOT defending yourself, just saying how you should have done so. AKA, defend yourself BY MAKING THE ACCUSATION OBSOLETE and actually contributing sooner. Not angry, hypocrytical defenses. Which you seem to be trying to use on me.

As for "seems lacking" not being a good explanation for why your defense was inadequate: That was a TL;DR of the rest of my post. As in, I not only answered your questions but did so in a way that should have been seen as my reason for why it was not inadequate.

You know what? After this fiasco, my vote's probably not coming off you for a long time. If there's some inadequacy at defending yourself - probably because you're mafia - that I missed that you still want me to address, by all means, repeat them.

Oh, also: @Jalmont @Acklow please go to post #203 and explain the connection from your end, or link me to an explanation you gave that I missed?

Celever: I'm gonna post again with my reply to your question soon.

 

[Aura Guardian]

Ok, @Celever: There are only a few reasons to ask after barty's power, and the "none of your business" makes the more insidious ones more likely.

Scenario one: you are village.
Asking him is to try and get a counterclaim or lack thereof for a 100% lynch or no lynch. Granted, no counterclaim except for some things is not foolproof, as he could have gotten, say, a BPV safeclaim or something like that. Still, plausible. However, if this was your purpose, there is no reason to have done so. After all, if he IS village, then you either save a villager power role or get a mafian to lynch the next day, which is a decent trade, since we'd have more time to talk about scumreads, etc. next day.

Scenario two: you are bodyguard...
And looking for someone to protect. If this is the case, then scenario one is also true, and you should have simply claimed that.

Scenario three: you are mafia...
Looking for someone to kill. Need I say more? This is the one in which you'd try to hide your reasons.

You did not claim scenario one, and both village scenarios say you should have claimed scenario one. As such, scenario 3 is more likely than I'd like.

 

[Celever]

@Spiffy seriously can you count? You mentioned me twice in the comment and before you said you only had one post only about me when there were 5+...

My point of saying that was you were repeating yourself again, you only changed what you meant after I mentioned it it was very clearly a repeat.

Also you would have wanted him to refute that point you made about Barty and Acklow so don't make it seem like you wouldn't have.

I was the second person who jumped on the Barty bandwagon (iirc) and the bandwagon wasn't even a bandwagon at said point, just saying check your examples. I understand that you might have seen the same thing as he did but do you need to include it in the very next post? I think not.

Also I'm clutching at straws to make YOU look scummy? There have been 5 points you have brought up against me at the MOST I would say it was probably 3 seperate points. Lynch Spiffy

Aura Guardian thank you for the swift reply!
I'm just thinking logically but not claiming/confirming anything but why would it be logical to uncover a bodyguard or any power role really this early on with such little pressure on themself? Barty already claimed a power role (well we thought that...) so there was no problem with a full claim.

Just saying I may not be able to give quick replies after this post (especially not as fast as Aura Guardian :)) so bear with me Spiffy + Aura Guardian.