Bluffing in Pokemon!

[Antar]

The most effective bluffing I do is on my Little Cup stall team (yes, it's a thing, and yes, it's extremely competitive). People see Snover and assume Scarf, when it's actually Eviolite. Bluffing the scarf actually heavily effects my decision-making. Example: I lead off, my opponent leads off with Aipom (and I wish he'd stop). I could just go for the Protect, which is the safest and best move in that situation, but I usually end up switching out to preserve the lie. It then pays off twenty turns later when they switch in their Chinchou after having their Murkrow die to an Ice Shard and get a Giga Drain to the face.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Well er, I can't say I know too much about Little Cup, but I'm glad you're having success with Bluffs in other tiers barring OU :]

 

[klvkboom]

I'm going to be focusing mainly on klvkboom's post, as it raises quite a big question. While I think you're scenario at the moment is pretty far fetched, I can see something happening in a real situation. Let's keep the same Pokemon, but add team mates. Let's say your team is Tyranitar / Jirachi / Jellicent / Filler / Filler / Filler . Now, Jellicent and Jirachi have been removed from play, this can be just you being out played or hax or whatever. Now, your question is "Should I kill Scizor, even though it will leave me weaker to Zam in the future?". My answer would be that it depends on the situation at hand. If your team is 6-0d without Jirachi to wall Alakazam (and Tyranitar to check it), then you need to keep Tyranitar alive of Alakazam. However, if your team has more trouble with Scizor now that Jellicent has gone, you should KO the Scizor. I think this question really comes down to all the factors in a real scenario. Good question. I hope I covered what you was trying to understand.

That's all I really have time for atm, I just wanna say thanks for everyone's support behind this thread. Like I said I will fix a few things later on today (adding more sets, going into more detail about how to beat bluffs etc).

You're close to hitting it Starmie, and I think you're right about the scenario being a bit far fetched (then again I run this TTar a lot and find Scizors always switching in ._.)

I'll just bring up the question again for anyone who's interested.

Should it be in the player's best interest to use a Pokemon's potential bluff even though it's outside the intended use of the Pokemon? "should you play as if you were a different set, even if it means giving up some kills and taking unnecessary damage?"

I'm thinking more towards a player mentality when bluffing sets. Normally when you have a bluff, you're meant to break holes in the opponent's team, but "when" is the best time to make that hole? I think my original question could be easily reworded to "Is it a good idea to prolong a bluff set, not for the right opportunity, but for a better one?". The idea behind it is to give your opponent a false sense of security. You see them play a certain way (possibly even to your own advantage) as if you were another set, and as they play towards their endgame you shatter their master plan because you revealed your bluff at the best possible moment.

I can make a different scenario that's more common and more familiar with everyone: EBelt Keldeo against Celebi. Now as stated quite often in this thread already, we know that EBelt Keldeo is an amazing bluff for Celebi. Keldeo has the obvious advantage here, but you don't have to show your opponent that you do.

Say in the early game Celebi switches in to tank a Hydro Pump off of Keldeo. Standard scenario I'm sure. You now have 2 options: finish off Celebi here with HP Bug, or switch out giving your opponent the idea that you're indefinitely Scarfed. As the game progresses, your opponent will play as if you have a Scarf Keldeo. After Pokes start to faint, more precise moves are needed, and that's where bluffs can make bigger holes than in the early game.

Then again, it could just be too risky ._.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

You're close to hitting it Starmie, and I think you're right about the scenario being a bit far fetched (then again I run this TTar a lot and find Scizors always switching in ._.)

I'll just bring up the question again for anyone who's interested.

I'm thinking more towards a player mentality when bluffing sets. Normally when you have a bluff, you're meant to break holes in the opponent's team, but "when" is the best time to make that hole? I think my original question could be easily reworded to "Is it a good idea to prolong a bluff set, not for the right opportunity, but for a better one?". The idea behind it is to give your opponent a false sense of security. You see them play a certain way (possibly even to your own advantage) as if you were another set, and as they play towards their endgame you shatter their master plan because you revealed your bluff at the best possible moment.

I can make a different scenario that's more common and more familiar with everyone: EBelt Keldeo against Celebi. Now as stated quite often in this thread already, we know that EBelt Keldeo is an amazing bluff for Celebi. Keldeo has the obvious advantage here, but you don't have to show your opponent that you do.

Say in the early game Celebi switches in to tank a Hydro Pump off of Keldeo. Standard scenario I'm sure. You now have 2 options: finish off Celebi here with HP Bug, or switch out giving your opponent the idea that you're indefinitely Scarfed. As the game progresses, your opponent will play as if you have a Scarf Keldeo. After Pokes start to faint, more precise moves are needed, and that's where bluffs can make bigger holes than in the early game.

Then again, it could just be too risky ._.

I think it depends on how much of a threat Celebi is to your team. I think it also really depends on what type of player you are. If Celebi was a big threat to my team, and I have E belt Keldeo with HP bug? I definitely would not hit Celebi with HP Bug. I'd much rather let my opponent think I don't have HP bug, since if the opponent knows Celebi is a big threat to your team, they aren't going to leave Celebi in on a potentially Ebelt Keldeo with HP bug. Later on, they are going to think Celebi is safe, and so I can easily eliminate it. However, if I wasn't that weak to Celebi and it didn't affect my outcome if it is around late game? My actions may have been different. By that's just me, I can't answer for everyone.

Thanks for looking so deep into this lol. Your comments are probably very helpful to a lot of people viewing this thread. Keep em coming if you have any more questions

 

[dadoux]

Having a strong counter AND a lure is really important in bluffing, if you rely only on Keldeo to kill Celebi, you're gonna get demolished, and when a Keldeo switches on my celebi, i'm expecting some crap to happen. You need to wait and play like you're keldeo is straight normal, (a lot of people are doing pivoting the first time they see Keldeo to check for the Hp bug) and when you're opponent is confident enough to switch into it, BANG, Hp bug in your face.

If you want to see this kind of set working, you need to normalize the game a bit, like "A got Keldeo, B got Celebi, A is going for Dragonite, B is double switching into Skarmory, A sends Rotom-W (B is doing a random attack like spikes), B switches on celebi, Volt switch, then Keldeo and Celebi meet again, kaboom baby Hp bug", i'm using a dumb example but that's pretty much the idea.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Having a strong counter AND a lure is really important in bluffing, if you rely only on Keldeo to kill Celebi, you're gonna get demolished, and when a Keldeo switches on my celebi, i'm expecting some crap to happen. You need to wait and play like you're keldeo is straight normal, (a lot of people are doing pivoting the first time they see Keldeo to check for the Hp bug) and when you're opponent is confident enough to switch into it, BANG, Hp bug in your face.

If you want to see this kind of set working, you need to normalize the game a bit, like "A got Keldeo, B got Celebi, A is going for Dragonite, B is double switching into Skarmory, A sends Rotom-W (B is doing a random attack like spikes), B switches on celebi, Volt switch, then Keldeo and Celebi meet again, kaboom baby Hp bug", i'm using a dumb example but that's pretty much the idea.

I don't think I've seen anyone bring in Keldeo into Celebi. That's painfully obvious that its packing HP bug. You're meant to take Keldeo out after Celebi has switch into a Hydro Pump thinking you're scarfed.

 

[dadoux]

Yeah that's what I said, for the best use of a lure, you need to have something to deal with the pokemon, Hp bug as a desperate attempt to revenge kill a celebi is kinda ridiculous, you need some structure : The whole offensive synergy of the team, the lure, and who benefits from it. (i'm not really into bluffing pokemon that benefits from themselves, when I use a lure i wanna be sure my late game sweeper benefits fully from it)

 

[Nglittleguy]

On the topic of HO specifically, bluffing is a topic which I consider well before battling, and starts with team building. First off, I find it tremendously advantageous for Pokemon such as sd Scizor when you bluff the usual band an instead set up on Pokemon such as forry or ferro. This helps in punching holes in the opp team and providing opportunities for sweepers to clean.

Scarf Pokemon such as terakion and keldeo are seldom bluffed by high leveled players, because if they do this, they are wasting a Pokemon for a role they should have been able to carry out, such as revenge killing a volcarona. Because HO teams don't have many defensive pokes to take 2 hits (assuming volcarona switches) from stone edge or rain boosted hydro pump, I generally find myself staying in at +1 quiver dance in an attempt to ko them. If they are scarfed, then I just send in a Pokemon that resists the move and start over from there. Again, it also comes down to your instincts. Throughout the battle, if the player has been using unusual sets or has already ran scarf on another Pokemon, it is very likely they are bluffing if they send in a Pokemon that usually checks yours.

 

[Emmy2]

What about ... ZOROARK???
That's the king of bluffing. Even better, you actually reveal Zoroark's presence on the team and start playing mindgames with your opponent. For instance, bluffing Zoroark as Jellicent is a brilliant way to fool your opponent into bringing in nice bait to sweep since no opponent will use a fighting type move on Jellicent.

I'm surprised more people don't use Zoroark, considering the potential for mindgames, free kills, etc.

And sure, some bluffs with him only work more than once on an unskilled opponent, he can still be deadly.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent-46337310

 

[Jukain]

On the topic of HO specifically, bluffing is a topic which I consider well before battling, and starts with team building. First off, I find it tremendously advantageous for Pokemon such as sd Scizor when you bluff the usual band an instead set up on Pokemon such as forry or ferro. This helps in punching holes in the opp team and providing opportunities for sweepers to clean.

Scarf Pokemon such as terakion and keldeo are seldom bluffed by high leveled players, because if they do this, they are wasting a Pokemon for a role they should have been able to carry out, such as revenge killing a volcarona. Because HO teams don't have many defensive pokes to take 2 hits (assuming volcarona switches) from stone edge or rain boosted hydro pump, I generally find myself staying in at +1 quiver dance in an attempt to ko them. If they are scarfed, then I just send in a Pokemon that resists the move and start over from there. Again, it also comes down to your instincts. Throughout the battle, if the player has been using unusual sets or has already ran scarf on another Pokemon, it is very likely they are bluffing if they send in a Pokemon that usually checks yours.

Gotta run Acrobatics on Scizor if you want it as a bluff to be an effective -- it's basically a giant "fuck you" to Tentacruel/Jellicent. Also, if you predict Volcarona, you can murder it. I'm firmly convinced that LO SD Scizor is a really bad bluff.

I've found through battling that bluffs are fairly consistent if you play well, even MULTIPLE TIMES. Well, you might not get to /bluff/ the second time, per se, but you can still kill the Pokemon the bluff was intended to kill/set up on. It means that the opponent's Celebi, which might be their sole Keldeo check (bad idea, but still), cannot handle Keldeo if you are Expert Belt with HP Bug.

I also want to discuss another thing -- switching teams on the ladder! If you're in for a long laddering session, especially on a less-populated ladder like OU Suspect, you need to switch teams and run different bluffs on each! That will make your bluffs much more effective because you won't be facing the exact same people with the exact same team. Making slight moveset adjustments even every couple battles (for example switching the roles of two Pokemon, i.e. Specs Keldeo and Scarf Latios on sand offense) will help you out, even. This solves many of the issues people have with bluffs on the ladder.

 

[Nglittleguy]

Gotta run Acrobatics on Scizor if you want it as a bluff to be an effective -- it's basically a giant "fuck you" to Tentacruel/Jellicent. Also, if you predict Volcarona, you can murder it. I'm firmly convinced that LO SD Scizor is a really bad bluff.

I've found through battling that bluffs are fairly consistent if you play well, even MULTIPLE TIMES. Well, you might not get to /bluff/ the second time, per se, but you can still kill the Pokemon the bluff was intended to kill/set up on. It means that the opponent's Celebi, which might be their sole Keldeo check (bad idea, but still), cannot handle Keldeo if you are Expert Belt with HP Bug.

I also want to discuss another thing -- switching teams on the ladder! If you're in for a long laddering session, especially on a less-populated ladder like OU Suspect, you need to switch teams and run different bluffs on each! That will make your bluffs much more effective because you won't be facing the exact same people with the exact same team. Making slight moveset adjustments even every couple battles (for example switching the roles of two Pokemon, i.e. Specs Keldeo and Scarf Latios on sand offense) will help you out, even. This solves many of the issues people have with bluffs on the ladder.

LO SD Scizor is enough of a bluff for me. Acrozor has to run flight gem, therefore, its bullet punch and bug bite/superpower don't get the boosts they need. Things that can take +2 bullet punch, such as garchomp, latias, jolteon, keldeo, starmie, gyarados, and ninetales all lose more HP due to LO. I wouldn't consider Acrozor as a bluff as much as a gimmick/lure. There is a difference. It can take down 1 pokemon before losing its usefulness, whereas SD Scizor can potentially set up on something such as TTar, choice locked latios, forry/ferro, outrage, in order to sweep. Its just a matter of personal preference on what you want scizor to set up on I guess.

 

[Arcticblast]

Life Orb Scizor isn't a bluff. If it takes Life Orb damage, it takes Life Orb damage. Meaning you can't bluff anything.

EDIT: I suppose that's a good point @MCBarrett.

 

[MCBarrett]

Life Orb Scizor isn't a bluff. If it takes Life Orb damage, it takes Life Orb damage. Meaning you can't bluff anything.

You can still bluff a revenge kill and set up an SD before you reveal Life Orb.

 

[awsmminer3]

I have recently been able to pull off a good bluff with this set:

Jolteon @ Wise Glasses
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Modest Nature
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Shadow Ball
- Volt Switch

Why Wise Glasses over Expert Belt, you ask? I'll tell you: you don't need a super-effective attack to get a Wise Glasses boost. Yes, the boost is less, but people think you're getting top-end damage with a Scarf. One battle, I had used Thunder 3 times consecutively. My opponent thought I was Choiced, so sent in his Trace Gardevoir on this. 2HKO with Shadow Ball. Absolutely amazing bluff that can work against Dragons (Garchomp) or Pokemon with Trace (Gardevoir, as mentioned earlier). Electric resists are also decent catches, but I usually Volt Switch those to CB Scizor.

 

[Spinda]

I have recently been able to pull off a good bluff with this set:

Jolteon @ Wise Glasses
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Modest Nature
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Shadow Ball
- Volt Switch

Why Wise Glasses over Expert Belt, you ask? I'll tell you: you don't need a super-effective attack to get a Wise Glasses boost. Yes, the boost is less, but people think you're getting top-end damage with a Scarf. One battle, I had used Thunder 3 times consecutively. My opponent thought I was Choiced, so sent in his Trace Gardevoir on this. 2HKO with Shadow Ball. Absolutely amazing bluff that can work against Dragons (Garchomp) or Pokemon with Trace (Gardevoir, as mentioned earlier). Electric resists are also decent catches, but I usually Volt Switch those to CB Scizor.

It does a lot less damage than timid specs does, and I'd assume expert belt way faster than I'd assume scarf..
So I have my doubts, I'd also like to note that modest loses out on Starmie and +1 Dragonite, which you could otherwise emergency check if there's no rocks up on your side of the field ( you still have a decent chance of living espeed after rocks, too. )

 

[awsmminer3]

Thanks for the criticism Spinda, and this bluff has worked before, so it's not totally useless. I will use your criticism to improve in future.

 

[Spuun]

@Jolteon set: While I can see wise glasses helping with some damage, it doesnt seem as powerful just for the aforementioned loss of speed. I feel like expert belt is better to hit things like hippowdon and bulky ground types that like to switch in on thunderbolts anyway~

Gengar @ Black Sludge
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast

Anyway, here is something Ive been using myself, with mild success. Gengar pretty commonly runs Substitute on any given set bar choiced, and most commonly with Disable. So, setting up a sub with gengar usually means you'll have disable or pain split (or hp fire, but thats less common). Its fairly easy to bluff disable regardless, if you sub up while a threatening attack is obvious. After this, they'll switch predicting you to disable, or they'll use a different attack, getting burned in the process.
The merit this set has, that some other bluffs dont have, is that will-o-wisp is still useful even after you've revealed it. Instead of aiming to stop a pokemon from using a move, this set aims to cripple said pokemon. The set pretty much plays the same as disable anyway, so its not really that obvious, giving it another perk.

(Heres an example of a bluff at the beginning of the match: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent-47026007 . He figured I would disable his Power Whip, and used Stealth Rock while I crippled him. The rest of the game is just meh after that.)


edit: To reply to the topic, bluffing in pokemon is a huge asset in competitive play. Whilst standard sets rightfully have their respective place as standard, having something different or less common(but not a gimmick), while still playing the same as if you had the standard set, is a good way to get the edge on a battle at any point in the game.

 

[Spinda]

@Jolteon set: While I can see wise glasses helping with some damage, it doesnt seem as powerful just for the aforementioned loss of speed. I feel like expert belt is better to hit things like hippowdon and bulky ground types that like to switch in on thunderbolts anyway~

Gengar @ Black Sludge
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast

Anyway, here is something Ive been using myself, with mild success. Gengar pretty commonly runs Substitute on any given set bar choiced, and most commonly with Disable. So, setting up a sub with gengar usually means you'll have disable or pain split (or hp fire, but thats less common). Its fairly easy to bluff disable regardless, if you sub up while a threatening attack is obvious. After this, they'll switch predicting you to disable, or they'll use a different attack, getting burned in the process.
The merit this set has, that some other bluffs dont have, is that will-o-wisp is still useful even after you've revealed it. Instead of aiming to stop a pokemon from using a move, this set aims to cripple said pokemon. The set pretty much plays the same as disable anyway, so its not really that obvious, giving it another perk.

(Heres an example of a bluff at the beginning of the match: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent-47026007 . He figured I would disable his Power Whip, and used Stealth Rock while I crippled him. The rest of the game is just meh after that.)


edit: To reply to the topic, bluffing in pokemon is a huge asset in competitive play. Whilst standard sets rightfully have their respective place as standard, having something different or less common(but not a gimmick), while still playing the same as if you had the standard set, is a good way to get the edge on a battle at any point in the game.

This is becoming quite the standard set, and for good reason.. Every gengar switch-in tends to hate burns.
It's an amazing set for bluffing.. But it's incredibly useful even when they do know the set because it has practically no safe switch-in

 

[Halcyon.]

Yeah they're actually including Will-O-Wisp on Gengar's new analysis revamp. It's a great stall-breaker when used correctly. Taunt works well on that set too over Sub.