Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

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Gary

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I also support Sawsbuck for either B- or B rank. Although it's bulk is rather lackluster, and it's heavily damaged by most forms of priority, Sawsbuck really doesn't need to setup most of the time. As Halcyon mentioned, Sawsbuck has the capability of OHKOing Offensive Latias after Stealth Rock, which is absolutely HUGE for sun teams, seeing as she's very well known for her ability to check a lot of things on sun. On top of that, Nature Power can KO Heatran, THE worst Pokemon that sun has to deal with, and is often why sun teams forgo an entire team slot for Dugtrio. When I've used Sawsbuck, I don't really use it as a sweeper. I use it more as a revenge killer then anything else, because that's what it is; suns best revenge killer. And man if you let it boost up to +2, you're fucked. There's very little that can properly wall Sawsbuck, and unlike Venusaur, it functions as more of a revenge killer that is instantly threatening the moment you send in out into the field. It's insanely fast, powerful, and can sweep PREPARED teams easily with little effort. It may not be as effective as Venusuar in the sweeping department, but it's niche on sun teams as an incredible revenge killer is more than enough of a reason to bump it up to B- or B Rank. It's not a niche Pokemon like 75% of C-rank, it's a really good sun Pokemon that is REALLY overlooked.
 
I nominate Volbeat for C Rank. It is a very decent Prankster user that can boost its Special Attack to +3 in one turn, and pass it to some fast Special Attacker for a sweep, like Lati@s, Gengar, Keldeo, Jolteon, Starmie, etc. Priority Baton Pass also allows it to escape from most opponents unscathed. However, that fragility and Stealth Rock can get in the way, as Volbeat will need a bit of support to accommodate for its shortcomings. It also lacks Taunt, which is a huge thorn in the side, though Encore is still good enough for Volbeat. Its fragility seems like it would be D Rank, but D Rank would be overlooking Volbeat a bit - it turns solid offensive Pokemon into beasts that will tear things apart. As if you thought Keldeo was already a pain to deal with - imagine a +3 Keldeo. Are you having troubles with Starmie beating Jellicent? Pass it a +3 boost to its Special Attack. Do you want Latias to pack more punch without sacrificing a slot for Calm Mind? Baton Pass it a +3 boost. Overall, Volbeat is definite C Rank material.
 
Ok, so the Pokemon we're talking about are Sceptile, Jirachi, Volbeat, Landerous-T, and Sawsbuck...
Sceptile: Sceptile is D-rank. While it can pose a massive threat to certain teams (including mine) it lacks the power to really hit anything hard. Even with all the speed, it still loses to many scarfers, and it has a lot of checks overall.
Jirachi: I would have to a agree Jirachi is S-Rank. It's versatility, good stats, great typing, and large movepool all mean Jirachi is a scary Pokemon for almost any team to face. It can run defensive, choice, set-up, or support set, and can easily use all of these to her advantage. Plus, Serene Grace allows Jirahci to get paralysis, flinch, and other secondary effects much easier. All-in-all, quite a great Pokemon.
Volbeat: Volbeat is also a D-Rank Pokemon. It's almost always a liability to the team and with its terrible stats and typing, it can be taken out by many Pokemon. Even IF it is able to pass a Tail Glow, most Pokemon that receive this boost can also be worked around, through phasing, status, choiced-items, focus sash's, or just pure power. Also, once it gets off a Tail Glow, it most likely won't be able to do it again, with it's SR weakness and terrible stats.
Landerous-T: I'm on the fence about this. On one hamd, Landerous is a great check to many of the physical attackers in the metagame, and has the stats to pull off a whole bunch of sets. However, many Pokemon still have the ability to work around him, and his speed is a let-down compared to many other Pokemon. Not only that, but no recovery means Landerous can get worn down easily. Overall, I would have to go with A-Rank
Sawsbuck: I've saved this one for last because I honestly have no clue how viable this thing is... What does everyone else think?
 
I nominate Volbeat for C Rank. It is a very decent Prankster user that can boost its Special Attack to +3 in one turn, and pass it to some fast Special Attacker for a sweep, like Lati@s, Gengar, Keldeo, Jolteon, Starmie, etc. Priority Baton Pass also allows it to escape from most opponents unscathed. However, that fragility and Stealth Rock can get in the way, as Volbeat will need a bit of support to accommodate for its shortcomings. It also lacks Taunt, which is a huge thorn in the side, though Encore is still good enough for Volbeat. Its fragility seems like it would be D Rank, but D Rank would be overlooking Volbeat a bit - it turns solid offensive Pokemon into beasts that will tear things apart. As if you thought Keldeo was already a pain to deal with - imagine a +3 Keldeo. Are you having troubles with Starmie beating Jellicent? Pass it a +3 boost to its Special Attack. Do you want Latias to pack more punch without sacrificing a slot for Calm Mind? Baton Pass it a +3 boost. Overall, Volbeat is definite C Rank material.
Volbeat is definitely D Rank if anything. It's a solid little niche, but that's just it - a niche. Hell, Ninjask is arguably better at passing boosts and is still D rank, so what makes Volbeat better? It's not Prankster as Volbeat is still terribly fragile and vulnerable to priority, Taunt, phazing, etc. Also, putting him in C rank would put him in the same league as shit like Donphan and sun sweepers, which is hard for me to swallow.

Edit: Lord of Bays I agree that Prankster is definitely what separates Volbeat from Ninjask, but that does not necessarily make it better, which it would have to be to justify putting it in C rank. Semantics, but I think it's important to make that distinction.
 
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It kind of is Prankster that separates him from Ninjask. They work largely the same in that after a turn or two you might as well need priority Taunt and shit to catch Ninjask, but all in all Ninjask is more vulnerable to priority and he boosts physical Attack as opposed to Special Attack, and he can only switch in half as many times as Volbeat. Volbeat is still probably D, but he's very much different than Ninjask and those differences should be addressed.
 

Gary

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I think we should keep in mind that just because something has some sort of niche in OU, doesn't necessarily warrant it a spot on this list. D-Rank is fit for Pokemon that have some sort of niche in the OU metagame that is worth noting or has some significance to it, not just some extremely small niche that makes it decent on very select teams that most likely aren't even well built teams. Sceptile is a perfect example of that. Okay sure, Sceptile has a very small niche in OU because it's the fastest Grass-type in the game and it has decent mixed capabilities, but why would you EVER use Sceptile on your team when you can use Nasty Plot Celebi, who can boost moves and even Baton Pass it to a teammate when in sticky situation, and is a LOT bulkier, or Breloom who can easily beat the pink blobs with a +2 Mach Punch and pummel most walls that would threaten to wall SD Sceptile. It's just WAYYYY too niche in my opinion to warrant a spot anywhere on the rankings, even D-rank. There's very little, to no reason to use it in this metagame aside from using it because it's the coolest Pokemon in the game.

To further back up my argument, I think you should take a better look at the D-rank itself. As you can see, most of these Pokemon are mostly absent from this metagame, but if you look closely, you can see that their niche in OU warrant them a spot on many more teams then something like Sceptile. Accelgor is the fastest spiker in the entire game bar the Uber Deoxys forms, which gives it a niche on hyper offense teams that can't afford to run a Custap Pokemon. Bisharp is an underrated sweeper that can be very terrifying when given the right support, and it has one of the most powerful Sucker Punches in the tier. Cofagrigus can function as a Trick Room sweeper that is also useful for spin blocking on top of that. Crobat is good on teams that are extremely weak to stall, Hitmontop is good on Sun teams that don't want to run Donphan, Golurk is one of the best Terrakion counters in the game and can spin block, Kabutops is an underrated spinner on sun, Ninjask is Ninjask, Scrafty is a Dragon Dance sweeper that is fit onto teams that need a Fighting-type but are very weak to Psychic-types, Snorlax is a good sun counter, Togekiss is a good bulky offense paralysis sweeper, and Quagsire is good on teams that are very weak to setup sweepers.

So if we were to put Sceptile in the D-rank, how would that compare it to the other D-rank Mons? It's the fastest Grass-type? Nah. The D-rank would be HUGE if we just put every decent Pokemon in there. It's not about being good or outclassed, it's about the niche it would have in OU, and if its niche is large enough to warrant it a spot on a few teams that really need it. I can't think of ONE OU team that would benefit from an SD Sceptile or a standard special variant, so I really don't think it should be D-rank. Volbeat, maybe. Any Pokemon with Prankster is good at something, and it's a good Baton Passer on teams that want something to receive a huge Special Attack boost.
 
I guess it's Sceptile's coverage and speed are the only thing that it has going for it. If it make you change your mind, it DOES have an OU analysis on Smogon. Not disagreeing with you, just those are mainly the reasons people use it.
 
I guess it's Sceptile's coverage and speed are the only thing that it has going for it. If it make you change your mind, it DOES have an OU analysis on Smogon. Not disagreeing with you, just those are mainly the reasons people use it.
Just because it has an analysis doesn't mean it is any good. We have an Old Swellow analysis for UU that is 2-3 years old (http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/swellow/uu). Swellow does not have a place in the current metagame, it just has not been removed yet because QC sweep is being stalled (it still mentions Jolteon lol). Sceptile is not completely helpless in OU, but you would be basically using it just because you can, not because it has key traits that are needed for your team.
 
I also notice that three viable Pokemon are nowhere on the list: Exeggutor, Jynx, and Seismitoad. Exeggutor is definite C-Rank material; Exeggutor can go offensive in three different ways, depending on what your sun team needs. However, it is rather slow even in sun, and can easily be revenged killed; similar to Tangrowth, but more offensively diverse, and a little faster as well. Jynx is an interesting rain sweeper; although it has definite flaws, such as ridiculous fragility and awkward base 95 speed, it can set up all over bulky Water types if it has not used up the sleep clause yet, and they won't be able to do shit back if they are asleep. Even then, a +6 Ice Beam is not something you want to have to stomach, unless you are Heatran, who 4x resists the move. I have tried Jynx and it has a very interesting niche; it is definite D-Rank. Seismitoad is a nichemon for anyone that needs Water + Electric Immunities and Stealth Rock, but it gets beat out by threats it does not check so easily, so it is pretty much D-Rank material as well.

In short:
Exeggutor ----> C Rank
Jynx and Seismitoad -----> D Rank
 

Chou Toshio

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FluffyStantler--

I agree with others that arguing whether an OU standard top mon is A+ or S is trivial (and just plain unimportant) compared to ranking a lower tier mon that nevertheless has a real useful niche in the metagame.

The purpose of this thread is recognizing the strength of mons that don't get usage representative of their usefulness.

Showing the usefulness of a Feraligatr, a Roserade, or yes, a sawsbuck-- is far more integral to the central purpose of this thread than placing the super-high-popularity Jirachi in A+ or S. you're just not getting it.
 
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Not really, no. Several lower tier Pokemon such as Amoonguss, Gothitelle, Xatu are ranked higher than OU Pokemon like Donphan and Jolteon. Jynx is actually pretty decent in OU because of Drizzle + Dry Skin, which doesn't exist in any of the other tiers. I could see her put in C-Rank to be honest, but regardless, the fact that she's in NU means next to nothing.
 
All three of those Pokemon serve very specific yet very valuable niches. Amoonguss is Keldeo's best answer, Gothitelle can trap Pokemon that Magnezone and Dugtrio can't touch, and Xatu is the best Magic Bouncer for Sun teams. Jynx's niche is even smaller and far less relevant. I'll try to stop with usage arguments (they just make sense to me), but I'd still put Jynx in D and no higher. Drizzle + Dry Skin would be a much more dangerous combination on something like Escavalier, but Jynx has some really nasty 4MSS and I've never seen it do much in OU. It's not very fast, not terribly strong, and not nearly bulky enough to compensate for the previous two flaws.
 
Jynx was amazing mid BW1, but todays metagame isn't very kind to it.. A huge majority of the water types, which Jynx is supposed to set up on, carry ways to deal with it now.. Technician Breloom has made the metagame adapt to carry sleep absorbers more often, meaning even lovely kiss doesn't have the impact it once had anymore.. 95 Base speed isn't enough in this highly offensive meta and just about anything will break jynx's substitutes.
 

Chou Toshio

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Yeah, Jynx's biggest problem is with that 95 base Speed. In lower tiers, Speed is Jynx's big advantage-- and the fact that many Uber Pokemon (read: Kyogre) are slower and/or don't invest in Speed is what makes it effective there. With Speed + Sleep + Setup + Water Immunity/Ice Resistance, Jynx can be a major nuisance under rain in the right setting...

But OU is not that setting. The enemies here are just too fast, and Jynx is too slow and weak on the physical side to get an easy foothold. If she can successfully setup Sleep or Sub against a slower bulky water type, her STAB combo can be a real nuisance-- taking out Latias and Keldeo alike. However, getting such a foothold is pretty damn difficult in the current conditions.

In the majority of battles, Jynx is just dead weight. I'd say D is about right, if it deserves a ranking at all.
 

PK Gaming

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Update
Sawsbuck up from C-rank ==> B-rank
Exeggutor added to C-rank
Jynx added to D-rank
Seismitoed added to D-rank

C & D rank needs to be restructured, or done away entirely, since they're a bit unsatisfactory at the moment. I'm mostly leaning towards a severe restructuring (ie making every tier more strict and upping the bar of entry for D-rank) but i'm still mulling it over. Thoughts?
 

Halcyon.

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I agree that C rank at the very least definitely needs to be restructured. A lot of the Pokémon in C rank should barely even be in D rank. I mean, who actually uses Nidoqueen or Durant? I mean, yeah I guess they can work, but do they work consistently enough to warrant C rank? I'm not so sure. Then there's stuff like Bisharp which actually should be C rank but isn't. There are several Pokémon that should be moved and several that should be dropped from the list IMO.
C RANK
  • Should be moved down, IMO. There are much better SR leads like Terrakion. I guess Unnerve beats Custap leads...but isn't that what Taunt is for?
  • This could probably drop too. It's problem is that you can only use it if you have an open slot for it, and few teams have a teamslot that couldn't be filled by something more consistent.
  • Should be brought down. Banded and Hone Claws are powerful, but taking a turn to set up sucks, and missing because of Hustle sucks even more. Not to mention it inadvertently competes with Scizor for a teamslot due to the typing.
  • Should definitely be moved down IMO. It's far too slow to sweep with Chloro, and Harvest + Sitrus or whatever isn't very good on a Pokémon with 7 weaknesses.
  • I've never seen this used effectively ever. Should definitely be D rank since it is outclassed in just about every way by other Ground types.
  • I don't see Rotom-H as being useful at all since Genesect left. Should be moves down.

D RANK
  • move up to C
  • I'm leaning towards drop...I've never seen Crobat used effectively, but I think I remember BKC saying he had once so I guess it's ok.
  • I can see this being moved up as well, but I'm not entirely sure.
  • Ehhh, I just don't really like Seismitoad all that much, but it was just added so I won't try to take it off.
  • Is this thing really viable in OU? It's a monster in UU but its bulk just doesn't keep up with the huge power surge that OU has. Plus its almost completely outclassed by Jirachi.
  • This thing was so much better in BW1, but I just don't see it being useful anymore. I'd remove it.

Those are the only ones I have anything to say about. Everything else is fine where it is. But yeah, that's how I see the lower tiers in this thread.

Oh yeah, wait, why is Meloetta not on this list. It's definitely B- rank.
 
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MCBarrett

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How about getting rid of D Rank and splitting up C Rank into 3 categories like B-Rank is? That way we could get rid of the bottom of D-Rank (There is no reason to have some of the D Rank Pokes on this list imo) and move the rest into C- Rank, while making C Rank more organized overall.

I would also agree with making every tier a bit more strict just so it will require a really strong argument to make the jump between tiers while more casual proposals could make the jump between subranks (C to C+ for example)
 
I dont get the point of adding a pokemon to D-Rank or even the D-Rank itself existing. If the pokemon is bad enough that it should never be used then what is the point of it having an analysis or being ranked here at all? I'd also like to argue why certain pokemons should move up from d rank:
  • This thing is ridiculous dangerous once it gets a boost, eats intimidate users for breakfast, uses skarmory as setup fodder and forces the opponent to play mindgames. This is in absolutely no way a pokemon that is ''more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.'' and should move up.
  • Rapid spinner for sun teams just like donphan. I see no reason why its one rank below it.
  • Decent spinner, powerful physical attacker, checks rain, priority to kill scarf terra and boosted volcarona. Doesnt belong here.
  • Unaware makes it a half decent check to setup sweepers and it can be quite threatening with curse+recover. Decent and unique niche that is highly valuable. Should move up as well.
In my opinion these ones described should just go C-Rank and the others should just be removed, ending the D-Rank for good.
 
Update
Sawsbuck up from C-rank ==> B-rank
Exeggutor added to C-rank
Jynx added to D-rank
Seismitoed added to D-rank

C & D rank needs to be restructured, or done away entirely, since they're a bit unsatisfactory at the moment. I'm mostly leaning towards a severe restructuring (ie making every tier more strict and upping the bar of entry for D-rank) but i'm still mulling it over. Thoughts?
Should we just assume Jirachi will never get the upgrade to S rank?
 

Gary

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Yeah I'm a bit confused why Seismitoed and Exeggutor were added to the list without any sort of discussion whatsoever aside from Alfalfa's post, yet even with that 2 page Jirachi discussion, it wasn't even addressed in the update?
 
Jynx has STAB Ice beam, and access to Nasty Plot/Lovely Kiss, allowing it to function like a Darkrai in Ubers, except that it can viably use Sub and regain 18% in Rain, definitely belongs in D rank. Exeggutor can be very annoying to face and isn't completely useless though I haven't seen a well played Exeggutor in OU... ever. Seismitoed has both Water Absorb and Stealth Rock.

There's not much elaboration on Seismitoed/Exegutor because we need to redefine what constitutes a C rank and a D rank pokemon, and those tiers are likely to be subject to serious change.

On a sidenote, Quagsire is very good, it definitely belongs in the tier.
 
IMO, Lilligant should be B tier. Not for its QD sweeper set but for its sun support set. Its access to Healing Wish, strongth stab move, Sleep Powder, and incredible speed is simply amazing. Here is the set:

Lilligant@Life Orb
252 spattck/196 speed/60 defense
Modest
Chlorophyll

Leaf Storm
HP Ice
Healing Wish
Sleep Powder

Boasting the fastest sleep in the OU metagame, Lilligant can reliably cripple one pokemon 75% of the time. Why u no spore Lily? Anyway, midgame, it functions as a wallbreaker of sorts, annihilating pokes with lo leaf storm and sometimes hp ice. Late game, however, is where Lilligant really shines. Lilligant is down to one percent. All you have is a half dead Ninetales left. Your opponent laughs as he clicks outage on his Kyurem Black. Sleep Powder is futile, you would be breaking sleep clause. Your only check to Cube has been eliminated by Wobbufet. You click healing wish, tank the Outrage with Scizor, and proceed to rape his last two pokes with Bullet Punch. What is mean is, Lilligant is so fucking clutch. It has essentially three roles- emergency check all mon, wallbreaker, and suicide mon.
No love for Lilligant? At least it is not as bad as Donphan.
 
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