The UU Viability Ranking Thread

[Moose V]

I'd like to nominate Alomomola for C Rank. Yes, there are already a ton of viable bulky waters, but Alomomola does set itself apart decently, and it has a pretty solid niche. First of all, with its massive HP and solid Defense stats, it's capable of walling things that Suicune, Blastoise, and Swampert couldn't dream of. It's got a pure water typing over Slowbro, so it can actually handle non-SD Heracross quite well. It also has reliable recovery and can pass huge wishes to the team, supporting pretty well. It's huge set-up bait, and there's no getting around that, as it doesn't even have a momentum move, but with Regenerator, it's really difficult for your opponent to wear down or take advantage of unless they have a boosting sweeper, it gives wish support to the team and doesn't actually even need to use those wishes on itself a large amount of the time as it can just switch to something else that needs and heal itself. It's set-up bait, but it has wish support, regenerator, pure water typing, and stupid bulk to make up for it and give it a niche.

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252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 159-187 (29.77 - 35.01%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Reckless Mienshao Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 207-244 (38.76 - 45.69%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Flygon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 204-241 (38.2 - 45.13%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 204-240 (38.2 - 44.94%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 190-225 (35.58 - 42.13%) -- 91.11% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 226-266 (42.32 - 49.81%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 235-278 (44 - 52.05%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I'll also second Hitmonlee, although I'd even say it's A Rank, considering the definition of it. Endure + Reversal sounds ridiculous, but it's actually really difficult to play around. That Reversal is just stupidly powerful, you need to resist it to take one. Pair it with Pursuit support and if you've taken out Cofagrigus/Slowbro/Cresselia/Gligar/Dusclops/a few other things, and priority, it is the best late-cleaner possible. Of course, there are those ways to stop it, but there's ways to stop every pokemon, and that's what team support is for. Having used Hitmonlee teams before, I've been very successful with them, and it's very effective. It can sweep the majority of the metagame, especially when many teams will rely on Nidoqueen or Crobat as their fighting check, who can't stop a set-up Hitmonlee, falling to earthquake/stone edge. It does need pursuit support, and the fact that it's at 1 HP is a rather significant flaw, but the payoff and the effectiveness makes up for it.

Hitmonlee should not be A ranked and here's why. It needs an unbelievable amount of support to function correctly since any form of priority, common bulky ghost/psychic types, the only weather in the tier, t-spikes, rocky helmet and fast taunters shut it down. The fact that it needs to be attacked in order to work doesn't help either since scald, body slam and sludge bomb all have a 30% chance to ruin it. Even pursuit support helps minimally as pursuit is designed to pick off weak ghost/psychic types like mismagius or chandy, not things that give hitmonlee trouble like cofag and slowbro.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I'd agree with giving Alomomola a rank, although it has a lot of competition from other bulky Water-types with good niches, Alomomola still has a decent niche with its massive Wishes and Regenerator. It can keep itself consistently healthy, while passing a lot of HP to teammates such as Roserade and Cofagrigus/Dusclops, which is great. Alomomola is also really hard to take down in general with the physical bulk, and can be an effective wall and finds itself some good switch in opportunities such as on Darmanitan, Mienshao, etc.. I'd agree with C-Rank probably, I don't care where it ends up, but Alomomola definitely deserves a ranking imo.

Hitmonlee deserves to be on the list for the reasons I said before, but Moose V hit the nail on the head imo as to why it's C at best.

Dusclops also isn't that terrible imo, it's actually hard to set up on the on site set because Curse places things on a timer so they can't do much for long, and Curse+WoW+Pain Split makes Dusclops really stally and in general it's hard to defeat.

 

[atomicllamas]

Hitmonlee should not be A ranked and here's why. It needs an unbelievable amount of support to function correctly since any form of priority, common bulky ghost/psychic types, the only weather in the tier, t-spikes, rocky helmet and fast taunters shut it down. The fact that it needs to be attacked in order to work doesn't help either since scald, body slam and sludge bomb all have a 30% chance to ruin it. Even pursuit support helps minimally as pursuit it designed to pick off weak ghost/psychic types like mismagius or chandy, not things that give hitmonlee trouble like cofag and slowbro.

I actually agree with Moose V that Hitmonlee should be no higher than C, but I'd also like to point out that Hitmonlee's best set is fighting gem/mach punch (hell even fake out + normal gem is better than endure reversal), which is a pretty good late game cleaner. Endure reversal is pretty easy to play around in a tier with hail, Gligar, and Qwilfish (neither of which are pursuit weak), also Hitmonlee is a status magnet, which makes that set useless fodder :/. You either lose to all priority w/o mach punch, or get walled by more things without earthquake.

TL;DR: Use fighting gem mach punch Hitmonlee if using Hitmonlee at all.

 

[ScarfedGaryBusey]

For adding some mon's to the viability ranking's I would like to nominate Kabutops for B rank.

Kabutops is a pretty good pokemon in the UU metagame as is, he has rapid spin, stealth rock, and high offensive stats along with swords dance, and STAB priority in aqua jet to separate him from his fellow water type. With those ability's he has a few set's that he can run quite well, his best set (for me at least in practice) is an offensive rapid spin set much like his main RU one, using his great STAB combination he can scare out a large portion on the metagame and pull off a rapid spin with ease or use the switch to a counter to use a swords dance to make them either stay in and die or yet again switch out into another mon. A straight up swords dance set can be used but faces great competition from weavile which arguably pulls it off better with an even better movepool to do so. And last he can run an offensive stealth rock set with having priority and being able to use both of his STAB's unlike say empoleon, forcing out opponents to set them up. He does have counters but with surprisingly expansive movepool he can bypass most of them with a well timed superpower. That's not to say we has flaws though, nearly every top threat pokemon in the current meta can scare him out with ease (look at the current S rank mons in particular) and getting walled by the more bulky spinblocker's (such as cofagrigus) but aside from those he can support a team well without having a team supporting him all that much which is why a B rank is where kabutops should reside.

I would like to have chandelure put back into S rank.

Chandelure is simply a amazing pokemon in UU and shapes a metagame in a way that is unseen like none other right now. There is little for an introduction for him, 145 special attack along with it's high power moves such as fire blast and shadow ball there is simply little that can take him on. Set's that are viable on chandelure are plentiful, it can run either of it's choice set's with scarf being to outspeed the unboosted meta and fire (get it?) away it's stab's along with trick to cripple common switches such as umbreon,snorlax,and porygon2. A specs set is one of those set's that nearly every team needs to deal with, it's power is simple put damn near uncounterable a specs HP fighting 2HKO's offensive lax after rocks, not only that but specs fire blast and shadow ball are 2 great moves to just click mindlessly and watch things die around you paving the way for several mons to sweep. For other set's outside of choice one's you can always run an annoying a shit sub split set which doesn't really beat it's counter's but wears them down to the point where they're dead after it's said and done.

Another asset to chandelure is that there is very little risk with using him, even if you're locked into a move that a setup sweeper resists you hit so hard that they will be hard pressed to setup which just adds to chandelure's value. He is also in need of very little team support aside from a spinner and a way to deal with snorlax,umbreon,and P2 (if you're not running hp fighting). in terms of extras he is a ghost type (well duh) so he can be an offensive spinblocker although not reliable as most other's and can be hard for an opponent to play around if they have a choiced fighting type on their team.

As for downsides on him, it's weak to rocks but that is really it's only issue I guess pursuit weak can be put on the list but they are few and far between. it's frail and has a hard time getting in a match. Besides that that's all I got for the biggest issues (don't give little reasons like it's water weak, no shit we know basic pokemon logic).

In the end chandelure is a pokemon that either teams should have a response to or prepared to be destroyed by it by it's unpredictablity and great assets that most teams could benefit from.

 

[Moose V]

I'd like to point out that while a pokemon's usage ≠ viabilty, a poke's counters' usage is relevant when discussing that poke's viabilty. If every team had a poliwrath on it, then weavile would have absolutely no viabilty, now would it?

Since I see offensive snorlax all the time now, chandelure is hindered more than ever in the UU tier. Running trick flame orb or sub/will-o somewhat helps with this but overall these sets do a lot less than specs chandy if snorlax isn't on the opposing team.

While on the subject of usage, let's look at the top 10 most used pokes in UU (minus chandy) against Chandelure:
Heracross–with any prior damage, even the scarf set is guaranteed to outspeed and OHKO chandy. (it can sill ohko at full health)
Blastiose–Beats chandy 1 on 1 62.5% of the time
Mienshao–Same with Heracross
Roserade–Chandy does do pretty well against roserade but LO rose does like 70% to chandelure with leaf storm
Raikou–Specs Raikou can OHKO Chandy w/ shadow ball or even thunderbolt.
Umbreon– Beats Chandelure 1 v 1 and can stall it out of fire blasts or wait for it to miss.
Victini–Chandelure can take hit from Victini and KO back
Kingdra–Outspeeds and can OHKO regardless of kingdra set
Rhyperior–Energy Ball does OHKO if specs but if it's scarfed/leftovers Rhyp wins.

Pretty much the only pokes Chandelure isn't likely to lose to out of the top 10 are Victini, Roserade maybe if it doesn't put it to sleep and Rhyperior if it isn't scarfed/lefties. This isn't even factoring in ST damage. None of the current S ranked pokes fair this badly against the top 10, even Zapdos which barely made the cut.

 

[PTJon7]

Shaymin is suddenly S-Rank, why is that? I don't think I've seen any discussion about it at all, isn't it the public's choice what gets ranked? I can't really see why it should be over the other special attackers of the tier but I'd be interested to hear what other people think about it.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Yeah, Im not sure I like the fact that Shaymin is S rank, mainly because it has solid checks, and it pretty easily revenge killed. Roserade, Crobat, Heracross, Darmanitan, Victini, and Arcanine are all solid checks and easily force it out. Id even say that they can switch in moderately well. I remember that some of the reasons why Shaymin is S rank is that it can hit common switch ins (Crobat & Roserade) for super effective damage, but then you moved down Victini which can potentially do the exact same thing with its common checks. Also, prediction really shouldnt be considered in the disscusion of how viable Shaymin is (mainly because prediction goes both ways).

Shaymin shouldnt be S rank

 

[Ash Borer]

I wouldnt bother mentioning arcanine, it's outsped and OHKO'd with Life orb earth power after stealth rocks, Darmanitan is in the same boat. Actually psychic against an offensive Roserade has a 31% chance to OHKO after stealth rocks. A defensive set is 2HKO'd by psychic, yet cant OHKO with sludge bomb, so being outsped, prediction isnt necessary for any of those checks/counters.

Heracross, crobat, and victini generally take shaymin to school, though. Victini needs to be scarfed if it wants to be a siwtch in though, switching in on any attack, then getting hit with earth power will kill it, so it gamebles on a speed tie.

 

[Magcargo]

Nominating Heracross for S-Rank
Heracross is very good in the current meta, as with two base 120 STAB moves, two great abilities in Moxie and Guts and an amazing base 125 Attack, it WILL devastate your team if you don't have a check to it. Its Swords Dance set pretty much destroys nearly every form of stall, while its Choice Scarf set does well against many forms of offense, revenge killing threats such as Azelf and Weavile. My personal favorite set is the Choice Band set, as it can wallbreak easily with its immediate power.

The main reason why Heracross was brought down is because its checks and counters were prominent, but the fact is it has no counters; only checks. Cofagrigus gets 2HKOed by a Choice Banded Night Slash after SR, Crobat has a good chance of getting OHKOed by an uboosted Stone Edge after SR, Nidoqueen gets 2HKOed by Earthquake, Gligar and Dusclops get set up on by the Swords Dance set and so on.

Now I know there are a bunch of people who think Miensaho is the better Fighting-type, but I personally believe otherwise. Heracross has the bulk to actually take a hit or two, has the ability to revenge kill Azelf and Mew with its Choice Scarf set, can defeat Ghost-types with Night Slash, can absorb status with Guts, and sweep teams with its moxie Scarf set. I know Mienshao has its advantages (Speed, regenerator, U-Tun), but I feel that Heracross's advantages are generally more preferred in the current metagame.

With that said, I believe that Heracross is a solid S-Rank pokemon.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

The problem I see with Heracross is that once you find out the set, its pretty easy to deal with. Youre correct in saying that Heracross can demolish stall with the banded or SD set, however these sets really arent as effective vs more balance / offensive teams, as its easily revenge killed and the choice banded set requires a lot of prediction to be successful (its great that it 2HKOs Cofagrigus, but youre generally not going to see Heracross spamming Night Slash, as its set up bait a lit of the time).

Then there's the Scarf set, which I'll admit is an amazing late game cleaner, but its pretty hard countered by Cofagrigus, Crobat, Zapdos, Arcanine, Nidoqueen, and other sturdy Pokemon. The fact that Heracross being choiced locked can be exploited so easily I think is what keeps it from being S rank. Just having a Ghost type really makes your opponent think twice about locking Heracross into Close Combat, as you can potentially lose a ton of momentum.

I think Heracross is fine where it is.

 

[Nas]

Regarding Shaymin, we made it S-rank because it's literally uncounterable, it requires very little prediction to use effectively, and it has very few checks. Really, the only time you need to predict is if your opponent has Crobat, every other "check" is generally beaten by Seed Flare + coverage move. There isn't a single wall in the tier that can deal any significant amount of damage to it, and Seed Flare's 40% drop rate ensures that it can't be walled. It's offensive checks are limited to Crobat, Scarf Heracross and Scarfed Fire-types, all of which can only switch in once since Seed Flare 2HKOes. It's superior defensive typing, neutrality to Stealth Rock, and access to two reliable recovery moves separates it from other wallbreakers such as Victini, who usually have a limited amount of switch-ins to do work. Shaymin, on the other hand, is a bitch to take out due to its bulk + recovery + Natural Cure. I honestly fail to see how it isn't S rank.

 

[Magcargo]

The problem I see with Heracross is that once you find out the set, its pretty easy to deal with. Youre correct in saying that Heracross can demolish stall with the banded or SD set, however these sets really arent as effective vs more balance / offensive teams, as its easily revenge killed and the choice banded set requires a lot of prediction to be successful (its great that it 2HKOs Cofagrigus, but youre generally not going to see Heracross spamming Night Slash, as its set up bait a lit of the time).

Actually, Heracross's Choice Band set still is pretty effective against balanced and offensive teams, as both usually carry either Umbreon, Porygon2, Rhyperior, Empoleon or Snorlax, all of which are destroyed by a CB CC. From my experience, Heracross usually has enough bulk to live 1 hit and is powerful enough to OHKO the foe with either its coverage moves, or STABs. I agree that locking yourself into a 70 Base Power may be unfavorable, but from my experience, it usually has paid off, as Cofagrigus will most likely switch into Heracross (but then again the prediction does go both ways.

Then there's the Scarf set, which I'll admit is an amazing late game cleaner, but its pretty hard countered by Cofagrigus, Crobat, Zapdos, Arcanine, Nidoqueen, and other sturdy Pokemon.

Crobat, Zapdos, Arcanine, and Nidoqueen don't hard counter Heracross, as Stone Edge an Earthquake wil 2HKO all of them after SR damage (although you do have to predict this).

The fact that Heracross being choiced locked can be exploited so easily I think is what keeps it from being S rank. Just having a Ghost type really makes your opponent think twice about locking Heracross into Close Combat, as you can potentially lose a ton of momentum.

I actually agree with this point. Being choice locked certainly does limit Heracross's usefulness at times as it will be forced to switch out if its locked into an unfavorable move. However, I still do think that Heracross's other pros are enough to move it up to S-Rank.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

Heracross fits this definition very well. It can support many special attacker with its ability to remove nearly every special wall in the tier with very little opportunity cost and can preform multiple roles, from stallbreaker to sweeper to revenge killer. Many of its flaws (ei average Speed, inability to get past walls with its CS set) are made up through its strengths (Ability to destroy every wall in the tier, Sweeping potential.)
tl;dr I still believe Heracross is good enough for S-Rank.

(Sorry if this is confusing / inaccurate).

 

[Moose V]

I'm actually gonna nominate SHARPEDO for S-Rank.

Stop! Before you dismiss me as some noob who just likes sharks, hear me out. I know this is probably not the best time to nominate something, given the large amount of nominations of other potential S ranked pokes and my post will be given proportionately less attention but Sharpedo's viability is through the roof. Right now, some of the most common physical walls, slowbro, cofag, nidoqueen (let's assume defensive set), are destroyed by it. Thus, Sharp has very few checks/counters and is pretty hard to stop once it gets rolling. This isn't even its main claim to fame, however, as it's probably the best answer to hyper offense in the tier. It's two most used counters, Blastoise and Hitmontop, get worn down incredibly easily, thus it's sweeping power is absolutely ridiculous. Looking at the top 10 most used pokes in the tier with rocks up, here's how Sharpedo fares:

252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 385-455 (132.3 - 156.35%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 222-263 (73.75 - 87.37%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 129-152 (35.63 - 41.98%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 266-316 (98.15 - 116.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Roserade: 286-337 (88.27 - 104.01%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 374-442 (116.14 - 137.26%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 164-192 (41.62 - 48.73%) -- 24.22% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victini: 351-416 (102.93 - 121.99%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 185-218 (63.57 - 74.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 425-503 (98.15 - 116.16%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Pretty good, no? Obviously these calcs against the top 10 most common pokes in UU alone shouldn't be reason alone to promote Sharpedo so here's some more. The only standard priority moves in all of UU are Ice Shard, Aqua Jet, Sucker Punch, Bullet Punch, Fake Out and Extremespeed. Inevitably, Sharpedo's frailty will be brought up but really Sharpedo shouldn't need to take any sort of hit but if it is forced to take a priority move, it can, as it resists 5 of the 7 and is immune to another (because of protect). Sharpedo also hits everything for neutral damage at least with the sole exception being Virizion, but Virizion isn't exactly boasting an amazing defense stat (base 72) and Sharpedo does also get ice beam in the first place. Its power is so overwhelming that I went 34-1 (I got crit by a draco meteor that one game but that's beside the point) with a team when I accidentally gave Sharpedo 152 Attack EVs instead of 252. I'm not even bringing up the special set here but that's also not only threatening but very useful for netting surprise KOs.

No Sharpedo discussion would be complete without discussion of its rival speed booster, Yanmega. Here's why Yanmega should stay where it is while Sharpedo moves up:
1) Yanmega has absolutely shitty coverage and can't hit a few bulky things even for neutral damage (Zap, Rotom-H, Registeel)
2) Yanmega has a worse attacking stat
3) While there are some pokes boasting absolutely absurd special defense in UU (Snorlax, Registeel, Umbreon), there are no "wall all" type physical walls (Gligar Probably comes closest but it definitely does not appreciate a waterfall). This means that Yanmega is a lot easier to shut down.
4) Sharpedo isn't 4x weak to rocks and therefore doesn't require nearly as much support.
5) Yanmega gets fucked by Ice Shard/Sucker Punch
6) Yanmega can't be physical or mixed while Sharpedo can effectively attack from both ends.

 

[biscuitz]

Gonna throw in my two cents on Shaymin (I'm not really bothered if it's S-Rank or not, I just feel it needs some bigging-up). The OP states that S-Rankers should be able to "support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost" and with Shaymin's decent SpA, above-average speed, awesome coverage and resistances to 4 common attacking types in the UU tier, it has no problem switching in and forcing opposing mons out, so it can safely be said that it ticks that box. Out of its checks that have been previously mentioned, only crobat is naturally naturally fast enough to outspeed and KO it, whilst victini speed-ties and everything else needs to wear a scarf in order to move first. Even assuming 0 prediction skills from the player using Shaymin, the cost of switching crobat in on Shaymin's Seed Flare around is 37-45% of its health (including stealth rock damage) whilst Victini loses 55-61% (again with SR). The point I'm trying to make is that when Shaymin comes in on something like Rhyperior, Swampert, etc. your opponent has to choose between letting something die or switching out and letting something else take a hefty chunk of damage (even with no prediction!). Admittedly, Shaymin is pretty easy to revenge kill once it's netted a KO and I think that is the strongest argument for why it shouldn't be S-Rank (although some may argue this flaw is thoroughly mitigated by Shaymin's substantial strengths). Finally, Seed Flare's nasty 40% chance to halve the opponent's SDef makes Shaymin virtually impossible to wall, which is pretty much unique in the current UU metagame.

So yeah, that's why I think Shaymin's awesome. I would support it being S-Rank but wouldn't mind to much if it wasn't, as I can kinda see the reasons why.

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

Shaymin was a poke I was always considering to be stupidly devastating in theory but in practice it kinda handed me short a few times. And this is from a guy who has used Shaymin A LOT in the past. Like, on Seed Flare, the 40% SpD drop is sick, and that's its claim to fame as possibly the best wallbreaker in the tier. But the thing is, you have a 40% chance of becoming the best wallbreaker in the tier. Now add onto that the fact it also has 85% accuracy. It sounds stupid to factor in accuracy here, but I've also lost a good chunk of games to consecutively missing Seed Flares on Pokemon that I wouldn't need to have chosen to go for any other move on. Factoring in the accuracy on top of the 40% chance, it actually becomes a 34% chance to become the best wallbreaker in the tier. Because if you miss, you do absolute jack.

Another personal issue I had with Shaymin was that I wasn't getting the adequate damage output as much as I would have liked while using Timid. Timid Life Orb Shaymin was pretty good actually, but sometimes I felt the drop in power compared to Modest Shaymin, who despite being slower, was also hitting a lot harder. Not saying that you NEED to be using Modest, the speed helps, but sometimes it just came up short and I felt the only draw to Timid was tying with the other fully-invested 100s.

While most of its checks (actually, every single Flying-type kind of registers as a Shaymin check, even despite the prevalence of HP Ice) are weak to SR (Shoutouts to Fire-types also), some Pokemon can still take a Seed Flare after rocks, and force Shaymin out. Crobat's a solid example imo. You hit it with a Seed Flare on the switch-in, and you're pressed to switch out or die to an oncoming Brave Bat. Meanwhile on the other side of the coin, the Crobat player could just use Roost, and then U-Turn on your Bronzong, Zapdos, Rhyperior or whatever so that it can come back in later. A pretty big gamble that most of the time will cost you more than you'd bargain if you stayed in and went for Earth Power/Psychic.

And the speed tier Shaymin's at, some of the base 100s it ties with have just as much a chance to kill it as Shaymin has of killing them, so you can't exactly hold that against them. Like if someone switched Jolly CB Victini on a predicted Seed Flare, they have as much chance of dying to Earth Power as you have of dying to V-Create. And if it's not late enough in the match to be gambling like this, then you're most likely gonna switch out to keep it alive. Same deal with Zapdos, too in fact. EVERY Zapdos carries Heat Wave, HP Ice, or HP Flying, which is going to hurt Shaymin. The variants that don't fully invest in Speed will have the bulk to at least survive an HP Ice. Forcing you to RELY on Seed Flare's SpD drop, which once again, may not always happen. Flygon won't OHKO you if you're healthy, but if you're anywhere below 72% HP (Shout outs to Hazards + Life Orb), even a lowest-possible-damage-roll Outrage is killing you, should you lose the speed tie. And U-Turn also takes a nice chunk out of your health.

Also, if you're going to argue that you run Psychic on Shaymin (Which is perfectly fine imo, heck of a good move for beating Roserade, Crobat, etc. on the switch), then you're completely countered by any healthy Zapdos, Honchkrow, Togekiss, and most flying types who aren't weak to Psychic (Which is most of 'em). If you were like me and ran Modest Shaymin for that extra damage output, then all the base 100s who you had a 50-50 chance of beating now guarantee you're going to be forced out without question.

tl;dr: I actually love Shaymin and feel it's one of the most solid special attackers in UU. But I also feel that most of the advantages everyone feels makes it worthy of S-Rank aren't even consistent enough to guarantee its position in S-Rank. A-Rank imo. But that's just my 2 cents, feel free to fight with me over them.

 

[Ace Emerald]

Shaymin was a poke I was always considering to be stupidly devastating in theory but in practice it kinda handed me short a few times. And this is from a guy who has used Shaymin A LOT in the past. Like, on Seed Flare, the 40% SpD drop is sick, and that's its claim to fame as possibly the best wallbreaker in the tier. But the thing is, you have a 40% chance of becoming the best wallbreaker in the tier. Now add onto that the fact it also has 85% accuracy. It sounds stupid to factor in accuracy here, but I've also lost a good chunk of games to consecutively missing Seed Flares on Pokemon that I wouldn't need to have chosen to go for any other move on. Factoring in the accuracy on top of the 40% chance, it actually becomes a 34% chance to become the best wallbreaker in the tier. Because if you miss, you do absolute jack.

Another personal issue I had with Shaymin was that I wasn't getting the adequate damage output as much as I would have liked while using Timid. Timid Life Orb Shaymin was pretty good actually, but sometimes I felt the drop in power compared to Modest Shaymin, who despite being slower, was also hitting a lot harder. Not saying that you NEED to be using Modest, the speed helps, but sometimes it just came up short and I felt the only draw to Timid was tying with the other fully-invested 100s.

While most of its checks (actually, every single Flying-type kind of registers as a Shaymin check, even despite the prevalence of HP Ice) are weak to SR (Shoutouts to Fire-types also), some Pokemon can still take a Seed Flare after rocks, and force Shaymin out. Crobat's a solid example imo. You hit it with a Seed Flare on the switch-in, and you're pressed to switch out or die to an oncoming Brave Bat. Meanwhile on the other side of the coin, the Crobat player could just use Roost, and then U-Turn on your Bronzong, Zapdos, Rhyperior or whatever so that it can come back in later. A pretty big gamble that most of the time will cost you more than you'd bargain if you stayed in and went for Earth Power/Psychic.

And the speed tier Shaymin's at, some of the base 100s it ties with have just as much a chance to kill it as Shaymin has of killing them, so you can't exactly hold that against them. Like if someone switched Jolly CB Victini on a predicted Seed Flare, they have as much chance of dying to Earth Power as you have of dying to V-Create. And if it's not late enough in the match to be gambling like this, then you're most likely gonna switch out to keep it alive. Same deal with Zapdos, too in fact. EVERY Zapdos carries Heat Wave, HP Ice, or HP Flying, which is going to hurt Shaymin. The variants that don't fully invest in Speed will have the bulk to at least survive an HP Ice. Forcing you to RELY on Seed Flare's SpD drop, which once again, may not always happen. Flygon won't OHKO you if you're healthy, but if you're anywhere below 72% HP (Shout outs to Hazards + Life Orb), even a lowest-possible-damage-roll Outrage is killing you, should you lose the speed tie. And U-Turn also takes a nice chunk out of your health.

Also, if you're going to argue that you run Psychic on Shaymin (Which is perfectly fine imo, heck of a good move for beating Roserade, Crobat, etc. on the switch), then you're completely countered by any healthy Zapdos, Honchkrow, Togekiss, and most flying types who aren't weak to Psychic (Which is most of 'em). If you were like me and ran Modest Shaymin for that extra damage output, then all the base 100s who you had a 50-50 chance of beating now guarantee you're going to be forced out without question.

tl;dr: I actually love Shaymin and feel it's one of the most solid special attackers in UU. But I also feel that most of the advantages everyone feels makes it worthy of S-Rank aren't even consistent enough to guarantee its position in S-Rank. A-Rank imo. But that's just my 2 cents, feel free to fight with me over them.

I feel like you're expecting the wrong things of Shaymin. Its not the tiers premier offensive Pokemon, nor is it the premier defensive Pokemon. It is an awesome combination of the 2 with a powerful STAB that's hard to switch into, good coverage moves, great bulk, and great typing. The best set in my opinion is the SubSeed because it embodies that balance perfectly. Easy to switch into a ton of Pokemon, then set up a sub. If they bring in an offensive check (Zapdos etc), Leech Seed and switch to a check which is going to be really reliable with that extra recovery. Between Stealth Rock and Leech Seed damage, its hard for those Pokemon to switch in many times. Defensive Pokemon don't match up much better, and Shaymin can stay in and pound them with Seed Flares. Shaymin isn't a wall breaker or stall breaker, it is THE pivot of UU and easy to put on a team and use at low opportunity cost. It may not always be mvp, but sheer usability makes it a great candidate for S rank.

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

I feel like you're expecting the wrong things of Shaymin. Its not the tiers premier offensive Pokemon, nor is it the premier defensive Pokemon. It is an awesome combination of the 2 with a powerful STAB that's hard to switch into, good coverage moves, great bulk, and great typing. The best set in my opinion is the SubSeed because it embodies that balance perfectly. Easy to switch into a ton of Pokemon, then set up a sub. If they bring in an offensive check (Zapdos etc), Leech Seed and switch to a check which is going to be really reliable with that extra recovery. Between Stealth Rock and Leech Seed damage, its hard for those Pokemon to switch in many times. Defensive Pokemon don't match up much better, and Shaymin can stay in and pound them with Seed Flares. Shaymin isn't a wall breaker or stall breaker, it is THE pivot of UU and easy to put on a team and use at low opportunity cost. It may not always be mvp, but sheer usability makes it a great candidate for S rank.

Alright, these are some points I can get behind. I meant to mention the SubSeed set as being probably my favorite in terms of effectiveness, and now I kinda see where you're coming from. It might be just me being myself but I'm still kinda reserved on S-Rank for it though now I wouldn't openly disagree to it when you present it in such a manner.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Regarding Shaymin, we made it S-rank because it's literally uncounterable, it requires very little prediction to use effectively, and it has very few checks. Really, the only time you need to predict is if your opponent has Crobat, every other "check" is generally beaten by Seed Flare + coverage move. There isn't a single wall in the tier that can deal any significant amount of damage to it, and Seed Flare's 40% drop rate ensures that it can't be walled. It's offensive checks are limited to Crobat, Scarf Heracross and Scarfed Fire-types, all of which can only switch in once since Seed Flare 2HKOes. It's superior defensive typing, neutrality to Stealth Rock, and access to two reliable recovery moves separates it from other wallbreakers such as Victini, who usually have a limited amount of switch-ins to do work. Shaymin, on the other hand, is a bitch to take out due to its bulk + recovery + Natural Cure. I honestly fail to see how it isn't S rank.

Very few Pokemon are literally uncounterable, Shaymin is not one of them. I would say Curse Registeel (you laugh I am sure) is a good counter to Shaymin and also threatens to sweep.

It does require a lot of prediction if you want to get around its counters since Shaymin only has good opportunities to come in on bulky waters and weak Pokemon like Sableye but then its only good response to those Pokemon are Seed Flare; it does not have a catch all move that would badly damage the Slowbro that it comes in on and the Crobat that wants to switch in. You could argue that it is smart to use Psychic here since Slowbro can do little to Shaymin even if it switches in but then you really are giving opportunities for something else to come in on a Psychic like Scrafty (maybe your opponent is really bad and thinks Scrafty is a good Shaymin counter or maybe they are really good and think the Psychic is obvious) or maybe you just outright lose because Slowbro uses Fire Blast. It is not just Crobat which you already acknowledge what about Tornadus and Yanmega and Zapdos? Are you going to assume you can always set up SR in a tier where Foresight Blastoise can spin on basically every spinblocker? Setting up SR is extremely easy but keeping them on the field is another story especially considering using guys like Zapdos on a team suggest the Zapdos user has some sort of anti SR measure.

There is at least one wall in the tier that can damage Shaymin if only Arcanine comes to mind. Arcanine should not ever have to wall Shaymin as a counter but can at least make sure both of them die in one vs one scenarios even if SR is up. You are also not correct I believe in saying the 40% drop rate "ensures it can't be walled" because first of all, well its just a 40% rate not accounting for accuracy. Accounting for accuracy (and really you should account for accuracy because why not) means the rate is 34%. After two consecutive Seed Flares you have over a 43% chance to not have lost any spdef at all. This is less than the magical half 50% yet is far from the certain death you imply by saying it cannot be walled. Specially defensive Snorlax and Umbreon and specially defensive Zapdos and Togekiss can have a chance to react by healing or phazing or attacking and then working from there.

I don't think you are correct in saying its offensive checks are limited to Scarfed guys and Crobat; what about the three I just previously mentioned? Even Weavile can switch in potentially if SR is not up and especially if its on a coverage move and then use Ice Punch to KO. Also you are assuming SR is up again when you say Seed Flare 2HKOs which is not even true for Heracross and Victini and of course Crobat.

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 110-131 (36.54 - 43.52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 105-125 (30.79 - 36.65%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

This is why I disagree with Shaymin being S rank, it is much better suited in A rank in my opinion.

 

[Moose V]

Can we make it a rule that if a nomination isn't refuted, it's automatically accepted? As I predicted, my Sharpedo nomination has not gathered any attention at all but I'd like to know if it's because no one wants to refute it or if it's just being ignored. This has happened a few times and nominations for a poke have just being flat out ignored and said poke doesn't move up or down. This should encourage every nomination to at least be considered.

 

[pokemonisfun]

I strongly disagree with Sharpedo being in S rank and this is coming from someone who by the way has in the past few months (since the start of summer) easily played the better part of a thousand games with multiple Sharpedo teams. First of all the calcs you listed do not impress me because every single one of those Pokemon has the potential to OHKO Sharpedo bar Blastoise and Umbreon which Sharpedo cannot easily 2HKO at all without extremely heavy hazard support. If you need such heavy support already I am doubting your S rank status.

Second you miss the fact there are so many tactics Sharpedo has to watch out for its not even funny. Yes Sharpedo can OHKO Raikou but no SHarpedo will not outspeed unless if uses Protect the first turn to get more speed in which case Raikou can use Substitute on the Protect. It is essentially a guessing game with equally skilled players.

If Sharpedo wants to sweep you are not quite correct in saying it can take a priority move, aside from the obvious Extremespeed Arcanine and Mach Punch users. Honchkrow's Sucker Punch can KO after Sharpedo takes something as weak as a random Scald or just two layers of hazards or a few good switches to prolong LO damage.

If Sharpedo cannot OHKO the opponent and the opponent is offensive at all, surely Sharpedo will lose the match up due to its wretched defenses. I am talking about things like Flygon, Scrafty, Kingdra, etc etc. Surely the opponent must be using at least a couple (2) Pokemon each team that do not instantly die to Sharpedo and Sharpedo has only a small chance (flinch and crits usually) to sweep if those threats are alive. Ice Beam solves the Flygon problem but not the Virizion one since it only 2HKOs and creates a whole new host of problems such as Raikou which can eat a single STAB move after SR.

One thing that really does impress me on your post is your ladder record, 34 - 1 I think (and others must think too no matter how lowly you think of the ladder) is extremely impressive. What on earth are you using that supports Sharpedo so well and so consistently and on what account did you get this record on?

 

[Anty]

I would like to say a few words about shaymin. Firstly it is amazing in this meta, its offensive moveset does amazing damage to nearly everything in the tier (except bronzong and bronzong cant do to much back), the only problem i have with peoples arquments is saying it is easy to predict a counters switch in, which is not true 1. they could stay in, 2. (especially with the defensive set) you may not have the right coverage to hurt the switch in, the sub seed set has to chose between psychic, earth power and air slash (least useful imo), im just saying. I do agree that it should be s-rank though.

Next i want to nominate victini back to s-rank. I was looking at the arguments before but i still think it is s-rank standard. Firstly it has amazing versatility, you might go in to your defensive suicune to take a v-create, but then get 2hko'ed by a thunder and even once you have found its set, it is still really hard to counter with its amazing coverage. It is also very strong, STAB v-create/blue flare coming of a respectible 100(sp)atk stat is very strong, it also has decent bulk and nice speed to complement it. It maybe pursuit weak but no pursuit trappers can risk switching in (except houndoom, if they have a houndoom you will go for uturn naturally). Overall it is very strong and great at forcing switches and getting momentum.
Also;

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

It kinda has to be s (unless the voting has finished, i dont think it has though).

 

[Ash Borer]

sharpedo is trash because it's made of paper so it's required to drop a moveslot for protect, and give free switches on a protect. This means its 2HKOs are made moot when practically anything that switches in is going to kill it, and even the least offensive walls will induce life orb suicide. IF youre going to make a point about prediction here, please dont, if you have to make a prediction on the very first turn you bring in a pokemon, just so that it wont die without inflicting any damage, most of the time, its not S-rank. Even somethng like blastoise who has little offensive presence will either toxic it, or scald it for a decent amount of damage before dying, and considering sharpedo's defenses and ife orb damage, it will be close to dead already. Scald does about 30%, meaning that the three attacks sharpedo had to use to kill blastoise have brought it down to 40% already. That's if you made perfect prediction on a blastoise switch in.

Also, about sharpedo and sucker punch. It takes about 70% from your standard life orb honchkrows.

sharpedo makes a good late game cleaner but so does suicune, raikou, mienshao, heracross, honchkrow, etc

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Yeah I'd say Sharpedo is not worthy of S-Rank tbh. It's a really good cleaner and can pulverize weakened teams really well, but it's kind of weak and it's also really frail. It needs some hazards and a really weakened team if it plans on legitimately causing destruction; and both sets are countered by something. Sharpedo will rarely be able to achieve a KO on a healthy opponent, and if it doesn't KO it's probably dead because its defenses are paper thin. It has a pretty neat ability in Speed boost but it still needs some good prediction to fully sweep. A-Rank at best, Sharpedo is really good, and there have been instances where I threw a rage because that thing destroys me, but I don't think it's S material tbh.

Chandelure might also be worthy of S-Rank imo, that thing defines "immediate threat" in UU. The thing hits stupidly hard and has almost no safe switch-ins; the only ones being Snorlax, Trace Porygon2, and Houndoom. Even then, Chandelure can find ways around each one, such as SubSplit to troll Snorlax, etc. It's decently versatile despite the same moves being run; it can use SubSplit to get some nice free hits, or just hit plain hard with Specs, etc. It's pretty good, I'm not sure on this, but I think I can see where things are coming from about it being S.

 

[Moose V]

I strongly disagree with Sharpedo being in S rank and this is coming from someone who by the way has in the past few months (since the start of summer) easily played the better part of a thousand games with multiple Sharpedo teams. First of all the calcs you listed do not impress me because every single one of those Pokemon has the potential to OHKO Sharpedo bar Blastoise and Umbreon which Sharpedo cannot easily 2HKO at all without extremely heavy hazard support. If you need such heavy support already I am doubting your S rank status.

Second you miss the fact there are so many tactics Sharpedo has to watch out for its not even funny. Yes Sharpedo can OHKO Raikou but no SHarpedo will not outspeed unless if uses Protect the first turn to get more speed in which case Raikou can use Substitute on the Protect. It is essentially a guessing game with equally skilled players.

If Sharpedo wants to sweep you are not quite correct in saying it can take a priority move, aside from the obvious Extremespeed Arcanine and Mach Punch users. Honchkrow's Sucker Punch can KO after Sharpedo takes something as weak as a random Scald or just two layers of hazards or a few good switches to prolong LO damage.

If Sharpedo cannot OHKO the opponent and the opponent is offensive at all, surely Sharpedo will lose the match up due to its wretched defenses. I am talking about things like Flygon, Scrafty, Kingdra, etc etc. Surely the opponent must be using at least a couple (2) Pokemon each team that do not instantly die to Sharpedo and Sharpedo has only a small chance (flinch and crits usually) to sweep if those threats are alive. Ice Beam solves the Flygon problem but not the Virizion one since it only 2HKOs and creates a whole new host of problems such as Raikou which can eat a single STAB move after SR.

One thing that really does impress me on your post is your ladder record, 34 - 1 I think (and others must think too no matter how lowly you think of the ladder) is extremely impressive. What on earth are you using that supports Sharpedo so well and so consistently and on what account did you get this record on?

I'm not saying Sharpedo should go head to head against Umbreon and Blatoise, I'm saying bar those two, it deals with the most commonly used pokes very well. It doesn't even needs rocks to sweep, it doesn't need to set up and it outspeeds everything in the tier after 2 turns. I'm just gonna respond to you in points from here on out since it's easier to do so (I'm responding to porky too):

1) The "support" Sharpedo needs is minimal. Yes, Sharpedo appreciates hazards, but it doesn't need them nor does it need to have hazards on its side of the field removed.

2) The only Mach Punch user in UU is Hitmontop and there is no Smogon set for top that utilizes mach punch. Thus, the only real priority move that can take out Sharp is E-speed from Arcanine which I already pointed out. Honchkrow's sucker punch can do 70% to Sharp but it is easy to play around and Honch is still only a check at best. Sucker punch from LO Honch is the strongest priority move you'll see in all of UU, so the fact that Sarp can take it (better than other sweepers in fact) is fairly impressive. If you let Sharpedo take a scald, you're using it incorrectly.

3) Sharp should not be sent in on a Raikou in the first place, it only makes sense to take on Rai after a speed boost.

4) Yes, some of the things you mentioned can be checks to Sharp if at full health but are fairly unreliable as far as checks go. Sharpedo primarily should only be used late game so it's very like these pokes will have at least some prior damage on them.

5) The reason Sharpedo is more effective as a late game sweeper than the pokes you mentioned as it doesn't need to set up in order to sweep. Even late game, some of the pokes you mentioned get hard walled by something else, even if they are weakened. The same cannot really be said for Sharpedo's counters.

6) Sharpedo runs protect not because it's frail but to gain a speed boost from using protect. Again, you can't send in Sharpedo on something faster and hope that they don't predict protect. Sharpedo should be sent in as a revenge killer on something it can outspeed (which is a lot of the tier given its base 95 speed) and click an attacking move from there. Since Sharp OHKOs or 2HKOs a solid 80+ percent of the tier, your opponent can't really switch and is forced to allow sharp to get a kill. If Sharp's counter/checks are weakened/nonexistant then Sharp actually can stay in and protect even against something faster.

7) Again, why are you letting Sharp take a scald? If you're trying to make the case that Sharpedo needs support in the form of a teammate who can take a scald aimed at Sharp, then shaymin needs support because it should be paired with something to take fire/flying hits, Snorlax needs support because it needs something to take fighting hits, Togekiss needs support because it wants a team mate to take electric hits and so on and so forth. My point it, every pokes, Sharpedo included, likes to have something to take hits for it but this shouldn't really fall in the "support" category. Idk if you were hinting that it should or not but ya Sharp shouldn't be forced to take hits like that.


As for the team, the only hazards support I had was Stealth Rocks and I had no spin blocker so Sharp wasn't even guaranteed to have any hazards support at all.

I know Sharpedo isn't "perfect" but neither are the other S-Ranked pokemon. They, just like Sharpedo, deal with a very large portion of the UU tier very well, have very few counters and require little support to function effectively.

Also the fact that Sharpedo can flinch is actually quite significant. That's why Togekiss is up there, isn't it?

 

[Ash Borer]

If you let Sharpedo take a scald, you're using it incorrectly.

so basically sharpedo is completely incapable of taking on almost any water types in the tier? It cant even 2 hit the better water types, so even with perfect prediction, a shitty predication on an S-rank anyways, it's going to take scalds against standard pokemon. How is it S-rank then. I mean suicune, and blastoise are the the two biggest ones but what does sharpedo do against alomomola, or bulkier grass types like shaymin, or virizion? A waterfall, followed by a crunch is not going to KO any slowbro, yet thunder wave is carried by most slowbro, and scald does ~35%, meaning your speed is neutered, and the 3hko involved in killing slowbro, a pokemon with a weakness to your best STAB means youre losing 65% of your health.

I cant stress enough that sharpedo is forced into protect first turn all too much. So, many things like snorlax who can be 2hko'd arent in the same kind of danger that fighting against something that doesnt require protect does. Because sharpedo is incapable of switching into many attacks, and because sharpedo isnt all tha fast before a boost, and because sharpedo has such weak defenses, switching in is challenging, and coming in after a KO doesnt confer a speed boost, not protecting on the first turn can mean instant death, so it requires excellent prediction, something that is not a merit, or it faces death. Due to this protect dilemma, sharpedo is fails to bust through counters more often than it shoud, and many 2hko calculations are not as impressive as they ought to be.

Scker punch life orb honchkrow is not hte strongest priority mvoe in UU, extremespeed arcanine is, against sharpedo. An offensive arcanine does 80-94%, a potential KO after SR, and a near certain instant life orb suicude. Hell, ambipom's fake out does 77-90%, meaning quick life orb suicide even with no hazards.

another point is that porygon 2 walls sharpedo flat, with 252hp/0def modest sharpedo can not hope for a 2hko with stealth rocks, and is easily KO'd by discharge.

I dont think sharpedo has the capacity to deal with a large portion of the tier. Again, many attackers with solid bulk, such as cobalion, such as zapdos, such as shaymin, such as scarfty, such as heracross, etc even with hazards can come in and revenge/threaten out sharpedo after sharpedo has made a kill, or if sharpedo has had to go for a protect on the switch. Sharpedo can not make a clean sweep against a team that isnt nearly dead, and sharpedo can be walled flat, and sharpedo has the protect dilemma to deal with.

Sharpedo's main strenght as far as I can tell IS the clean sweep against a mostly dead team. IF youre forcing switches into hazards all day, if youre offensive enough to reduce the entire opponents team to ~50% then sharpedo goes to work. However, I dont know how often this happens for sharpedo. Again, its still stopped by prioirty and those who are especially bulky.