Okay, so these comments aren't so bad, and I understand the hype. However, the24th is right on this one. If you are simply writing GG OU, that's the problem. While there is nothing wrong with saying GG OU, there is something wrong with saying that and only that. If you were to say GG OU and say why you thought this, and at least elaborate a bit, it would be fine, as this thread is focused on the competitive discussion of X and Y. While I value people's reactions to new information as I feel that it brings a great aspect to this thread, you should at least put something that actively contributes to the discussion in there along with it (such as new info, an explanation why you reacted) in order to make it worth posting. If people could understand that this is a competitive discussion and stop only stating their reactions, that would be beneficial to this thread. Thanks.
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Other Looking Ahead to Gen VI Mark II (SEE POSTS #818 & #858)
- Thread starter GCSChris
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Mega Charizard X will be perfectly fine. It's a Fire-type neutral to Water and it can Mega Evolve, outspeed any Water-type lead Rain has, and throw out a Sunny Day or a Flare Blitz on the same turn. Politoed can do jack to Charizard X without a Choice Scarf and Ferrothorn just gets nuked by Flare Blitz. It's really the one Pokemon that Sun teams have that absolutely dominates Rain teams. Sun teams should have a way of dealing with SR from the start anyhow, so it shouldn't be that much of an issue. Honestly, just evolve Zard early and you're golden.
I can't say the same for Charizard Y as it retains it's Water weakness, and just becomes a stronger but frailer Ninetales even with Sunny Day.
Have you even looked at some of the new Pokemon?
More than half the Kalos Pokemon seem to be slowish, defensive behemoths with 120~150 in one of its defensive stats or tank.
Goodra is every Grass-type's worst nightmare, Kelfki is a Steel/Fairy-type with Prankster of all things, Doublade and Aegislash abuse Eviolite and Stance Change respectively for insane bulk, 3 families of Pokemon get Frisk so item bluffs fail, Two Grass/Ghosts for Keldeo, Florges as a Fairy with Base 150 Sp.Def and Recover, and Zygarde is built to be a faster, bulkier, but less powerful Garchomp. There are even better forms of Protect that damage/cripple the opponent if they attack physically, Electric-type and Fairy-type Giga Drain variants, and a large handful of Attack/Sp.Atk-lowering moves that either do damage, have priority, or switch-out the user ala baton pass.
Fairy also completely ruined the Choiced Dragons and Fighting-types that made Hyper Offense what it was and they can't be removed via Magnezone nor Pursuit. Fairy will effectively bury 5th Gen hyper offense teams. For instance:
Meet Granbull, a fairly mediocre Pokemon. He's a Fairy/Normal-type that also has Intimidate.
Granbull Intimidates then crushes Dragons with Ice Punch/Fairy STAB and Gengar with Crunch. It can even revenge KO Terrakion with Close Combat.
Now take something like Sylveon or Florges with Wish/Recover, high Sp.Def, and Sp.Atk and hyper offense is doing no damage without some powerful secondary STAB or Steel-type attack on those Dragons.
For every Dragon that carries a Poison or Steel move, they miss out on boosting moves or on threatening Heatran, Ferrothorn, Forretress, or Skarmory with Fire Punch/Blast or Earthquake.
Defensive teams have a very real chance of making a comeback with all the tools Gen 6 has given them while hyper offense seems like it will be much less effective because of those same tools.
Honestly, if weather does indeed get nerfed in a significant way, there's not much more I could ask of this generation.
I also want to add that Mega Mewtwo shouldn't be getting any discussion here since it is an OU thread after all. It will never be OU; its near god damn broken in Ubers for crying out loud.
Talking about broken, due to all these mega evos, fairy type introduction, and the defensive steel nerf, I think it'd be appropriate to discuss the potential pokemon who are currently in Ubers that may deserve to see a drop to OU for the beginning of gen 6...as long as GCSChris approves :]
Talking about broken, due to all these mega evos, fairy type introduction, and the defensive steel nerf, I think it'd be appropriate to discuss the potential pokemon who are currently in Ubers that may deserve to see a drop to OU for the beginning of gen 6...as long as GCSChris approves :]
I can see at least DeoN being legal in OU.
Some Megas and lots of scarfers outspeed, buffed versions of Protect, new forms of weather, Parting Shot, even a multi hitting priority move!
I think GameFreak is moving in the right direction with balance, but we will see bc they did make Aegislash look broken and MegaAerodactyl look mediocre.
As this is an OU thread, anything that has OU potential (moving up or down) merits discussion. Mewtwo obviously will never be OU, so that's a great point. Thanks.
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I can see Excadrill having another long stay in OU. I'm not saying it won't eventually be banned, but I think it'll be around for a while at least, and has a good shot at staying OU based on some of the Pokémon we're seeing pop up. It definitely has qualities that make it an excellent Pokémon. I mean, we already know that it has Sand Rush, Rapid Spin, and Swords Dance to sweep, but next gen it's getting a pretty big buff too. Steel might actually be a decent offensive type, being able to hit Fairy types super-effectively. I can see a core of Tyranitar / Excadrill / (Mega) Garchomp being excellent next gen if Fairies really do rule the tier, as Garchomp and Excadrill can both easily wear down the counters to the other. Garchomp can lure and KO (or at least weaken) Skarmory and Bronzong with Fire Blast, and Landorus-T and Gliscor won't like taking boosted Outrages either. On the other hand, Excadrill can easily KO Fairies with +2 Iron Head, which can make spamming Dragon moves a possibility for Garchomp once they have been eliminated. Yes, I think those three might to very well together.
I wonder if GameFreak will give Mega Aerodactyl Head Smash or Brave Bird to help abuse its ability? I mean, it seems like most Megas other than the OP Mewtwo forms have got some kind of useful ability, so I don't see why they'd give an ability like Tough Claws to a Pokemon with not only a sparse movepool, but also one that's full of a bunch of indirect moves. I wonder how it will play out.
Iight, so with the introduction of all these changes, there are quite a few pokemon I think deserve to be brought down from Ubers to OU when gen 6 kicks off. So here is my initial banlist: Arceus, Mewtwo, Kyogre, Groudon, and maybe Palkia. All the other pokemon would be worthy to participate in OU for the time being. Most cover legendaries are dragon type pokemon and they just received a huge nerf due to the introduction of fairies. Steel types were previously the only type that resisted dragon, but now fairy is immune to dragon, thus rendering a lot of these high base STAB attacks worthless against a portion of the metagame. Also, Mega evolutions have revealed that the pokemon who get them receive a major overhaul in their stats. At first people weren't sure how major it would be and assumed it wouldn't be a huge significance, but some are outrageously huge. If I remember correctly, MegaAbomasnow got a 58 base stat increase in each of its attacking stats and a boost in its defenses as well, thus making hail a very interesting option and hinders dragons even more since they are weak to Ice. That is only one example of many pokemon that were considered inferior during this generation that may rise up to fame thanks to its mega evo in the upcoming generation.
Many pokemon in lower tiers have high base stat totals but do not perform well for an array of reasons, however, people assume the 670+ BST pokemon would all be broken in OU without giving it any thought. The players need to be more optimistic and think outside the box when it comes to this upcoming generation because there are way too many new things going on that cannot be ignored. I also cannot stress this enough: Ubers is a banlist first; it is a tier second. Just because the amount of pokemon initially starting off in Ubers would look like a BL tier doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. Just because the BST of these pokemon are high doesn't mean they cannot be manageable in the 6th generation. Just because this pint of view goes against the status quo does not make it wrong. This is my very open-minded non-biased view on how gen 6 can/should be started.
Many pokemon in lower tiers have high base stat totals but do not perform well for an array of reasons, however, people assume the 670+ BST pokemon would all be broken in OU without giving it any thought. The players need to be more optimistic and think outside the box when it comes to this upcoming generation because there are way too many new things going on that cannot be ignored. I also cannot stress this enough: Ubers is a banlist first; it is a tier second. Just because the amount of pokemon initially starting off in Ubers would look like a BL tier doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. Just because the BST of these pokemon are high doesn't mean they cannot be manageable in the 6th generation. Just because this pint of view goes against the status quo does not make it wrong. This is my very open-minded non-biased view on how gen 6 can/should be started.
Yeah, that's the thing. Guys like Excadrill and Thundurus-I will still be dangerous even with the new Megas, assuming they drop back down after Smogon's initial ban list. If I play, I definitely plan on using Excadrill as it still outspeeds (nearly) all the Megas we've seen thus far in the sand.
Maybe it's me, but Togekiss seems REALLY interesting. With it's retyping to Flying/Fairy, Togekiss is immune to both of Garchomp's STABs. And Chomper isn't breaking through base 115 Sp.Def with Fire Blast. Yes, Garchomp gets Stone Edge IIRC but then Skarmory/Forretress/Ferrothorn say "hi" unless you run 4 attacks. Top that off with really nice 4x Fighting and Bug resists as well as a resistance to Dark and Grass and you could make a case for it. It's a bit slow, still has BoltBeam issues, and Poison and Steel really wreck it now, but I can see Togekiss on more balanced and maybe even some stall teams.
Oh, and aren't there two new weather conditions? I heard something about that, but I don't have the details atm.
I had completely forgotten about Fairy Togekiss. As others have mentioned it's now immune to Garchomp's and MegaChomp's STABs (and potentially Zydarde's too if it's weak enough for OU) as well as other Dragons who previously relied on Dragon/Ground coverage. Combine that with Nasty Plot and STAB Serene Grace Air Slash to rip through bulky offense and I think we may have a strong contender for Gen 6 OU.
Come, Togeplane, and carry me on your horrible deformed wings to that magical land where Garchomp is a thing that you can set up on.
Seriously, Togekiss gets nothing but perks out of this re-typing. The Poison/Steel weaknesses are more than compensated for by double resistances to Fighting/Bug, let alone the Dragon immunity. And it has a lot more power now that it has a STAB with some actual coverage (sorry Tri Attack, but you're kinda shit) that's higher BP than Air Slash.
The only thing I can think of to stack the deck more in its favor would be if it got some way to boost its Speed.
Seriously, Togekiss gets nothing but perks out of this re-typing. The Poison/Steel weaknesses are more than compensated for by double resistances to Fighting/Bug, let alone the Dragon immunity. And it has a lot more power now that it has a STAB with some actual coverage (sorry Tri Attack, but you're kinda shit) that's higher BP than Air Slash.
The only thing I can think of to stack the deck more in its favor would be if it got some way to boost its Speed.
Togekiss was also pretty average at countering Gengar, even with a ghost immunity. Losing its Normal type is favor of Fairy is most excellent. It'll also beat most versions of Dragonite, Salamence, Lati@s and hard wall poor, poor Haxorus.
There are several dragons it will not wall, however, including Kyruem, Tytantrun, Dragalge.
There are several dragons it will not wall, however, including Kyruem, Tytantrun, Dragalge.
Anything that's faster and can exploit the flying type
I feel like with all the talk about Aegishield people forget that it's quite slow with 60 base speed. ATM shadow sneak is it's only priority so it's not too hard to outspeed it and hit it with a Special move like Flamethrower to avoid King's Sheild. Shadow Sneak unless hitting something super effective will do 2HKOs at +2 at best. It'll enjoy an agility pass or a better Priority move. Otherwise it'll go well at end game where it can get some quick Kos otherwise it is very weak on the Special Defence if it's not in Shield mode.
Also here are some defencive numbers for it
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 140-166 (43.2 - 51.23%) -- 6.25% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom) in sun: 211-250 (65.12 - 77.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def (custom): 344-408 (106.17 - 125.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-2 252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def (custom): 174-206 (53.7 - 63.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 276-326 (85.18 - 100.61%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Calcs done with 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def in Shield mode and Adamant Nature. Whilst he is good, he is defeatable with that 60HP stat
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nobody seem to care but...does ditto copy mega evolution if you switch in on one?
slap a choice item on ditto on it and set!
slap a choice item on ditto on it and set!
I don't think so. Just as Ditto copies Arceus but not its specific forme (because it's not holding a specific Plate), I think Ditto will copy the opposing Pokemon but not be able to access their Mega forme because it's not holding the corresponding Mega Stone. The good news is that no one used Ditto anyway.
It looks like Sylveon's stats make up for it's totally worthless ability. Shoot, it might actually live long enough to trigger it. Leafon totally just got kicked off my Eevee rangers team, and (shiny) espeon will be the new green.
I have a gut feeling that Sylveon's hidden ability will be Serene Grace. Just seems like an ability that would go well with it, and be boss like the other hidden eevee abilities.
I have a gut feeling that Sylveon's hidden ability will be Serene Grace. Just seems like an ability that would go well with it, and be boss like the other hidden eevee abilities.
This is what we call a healthy Ubers metagame. In BW Ubers, OU Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Forretress, Latias, Latios,
tl;dr - Mewtwo is not OU.
In other news, it has been confirmed that IRL "interaction" with your Pokemon can do things like heal status:
Do you guys think these mechanics will be insta-banned or will we be blowing on our computer screens for the next few years ("staying true to the game")?
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Oh right Shaymin-S... I think that is one non-670 base stat Pokemon that should never grace OU again, I doubt I'd be alone in not wanting to see its flinch hax shenanigans/Seed Flare SpD drops that make even Blissey run for the hills.
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haunter
Banned deucer.
Looks like this thread is being derailed to whether we should have an initial banlist, at the beginning of the X/Y era, or not. Just let me say that the fact that a few currently Uber Pokemon might get 1/2 new checks in X/Y is largely irrelevant. Let's take Kyogre for example: right now Kyogre is pretty much stopped in its tracks by Gastrodon and, to a lesser extent by Ferrothorn (that only fears full HP specs water spouts) and Ludicolo. However, despite having said counters/checks, I think we can all agree that Kyogre wouldn't be an healthy addition to the OU metagame.
While starting with no initial banlist might be preferably from a philosophical standpoint, it might give us a false sense of balance within the tier. As many Ubers players know, the Ubers tier is quite a balanced metagame, where even ridiculously powerful Pokemon like specs-Kyogrs, soul dew-Lati@s, LO-Rayquaza etc. have solid answers in the form of walls like Lugia/Giratina and cheks like scarf-Genesect. Dropping all of these Pokemon down from Ubers, would probably give us a balanced metagame in X/Y as well, but at that point we'd just be calling OU what we currently call Ubers and many of the wanna-be OU Pokemon would become UU-RU and so on. Basically we'd just rename our tiers, while, at the same time, dumping tiering issues on lower tiers. That's why I believe that an initial banlist is absolutely necessary. That said, this topic does not belong to this thread, so please just focus on the new Pokemon that are being leaked and not on their tiering.
While starting with no initial banlist might be preferably from a philosophical standpoint, it might give us a false sense of balance within the tier. As many Ubers players know, the Ubers tier is quite a balanced metagame, where even ridiculously powerful Pokemon like specs-Kyogrs, soul dew-Lati@s, LO-Rayquaza etc. have solid answers in the form of walls like Lugia/Giratina and cheks like scarf-Genesect. Dropping all of these Pokemon down from Ubers, would probably give us a balanced metagame in X/Y as well, but at that point we'd just be calling OU what we currently call Ubers and many of the wanna-be OU Pokemon would become UU-RU and so on. Basically we'd just rename our tiers, while, at the same time, dumping tiering issues on lower tiers. That's why I believe that an initial banlist is absolutely necessary. That said, this topic does not belong to this thread, so please just focus on the new Pokemon that are being leaked and not on their tiering.
Ditto actually can copy Giratina-O and the specific Arceus form whitout having to hold a Griseous Orb or a Plate(it doesn't copy the Judgement type unless it has already a Plate, thought), I can tell for sure since i used Ditto in Ubers as my revengekiller. So probably Ditto would be able also to copy MegaPokémons.
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