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Other Looking Ahead to Gen VI Mark II (SEE POSTS #818 & #858)
- Thread starter GCSChris
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Well I wasn't sure if I should post this here or make a new thread but I'll be safe and post it here.
Now that we have the very basics of gen 6 available for play on Pokemon Showdown, what does everyone think of the stuff that's been implemented so far? I'll give some thoughts on the pokemon i've used and faced.
Xerneas:
Hoooly shit. With powerherb and geomancy, Xerneas gets +2 SpA, SpD and Speed in a single turn. Currently on PS it doesn't have any coverage moves, but it still go a long way with Moonblast alone. Definitely ubers, that goes without saying. It's kind of like using a White Herb Cloyster, except with a better typing. I'm not entirely sure what can deal with it as of yet since I'm not an ubers play, but 252+ CB Scizor only does 80% to it with a bullet punch. If you do manage to force it out though, it's more screwed than a white herb cloyster would be, considering a 2 turn move is always a big risk.
Yvetal:He's pretty good honestly, not as good as Xerneas because he doesn't have access to ridiculous boosts. Oblivion wing makes him much balkier than he seems to be at first, and I saw someone using a Rest/Talk set with Oblivion Wing which was very hard to kill, although I doubt this set will do very well in ubers. Can't say much about him, will have to wait until more of his movepool is released.
Aegislash:
Hoooooly shit. Aegislash is not only godly, but extremely fun to use. I ran the set Sacred Sword/Shadow Sneak/Swords Dance/King's Shield. If you successfully pull of a King's Shield you essentially get a free Swords Dance. Infact his fantastic bulk gives you a free Swords Dance against most things, granted you can OHKO them with +2 Shadow Sneak. I went for Sacred Sword/Shadow Sneak for perfect coverage, but honestly I don't think it works so well. Because of Stance Change, there are a lot of situations where I just don't want to Shadow Sneak, so this Aegislash set plays very similarly to a monoattacking set. I also had many opportunities to set up Swords Dance so I think Iron Head may actually be the better option. If this guy gets Pain Split it's gonna be crazy. While he's very good I don't see him being OP. You can spam EQ to deal with him (I suppose this means he synergises well with flying types), and dark type special attackers also give him trouble. Sensing high OU on this one.
Greninja:
He's quite nice, a fast uturn is very welcome. I've heard rumours that he gets things like taunt and rapid spin, which will make him an interesting choice as a fast support pivot. With his currently implemented movepool he's kinda crap, not strong enough to deal any real damage. Water Shurikens deal pitiful damage as well, not exactly a reliable priority move, which is what you want a priority move to be. If he does get rapid spin I can totally see him being UU, otherwise he's most likely going to be RU.
Now that we have the very basics of gen 6 available for play on Pokemon Showdown, what does everyone think of the stuff that's been implemented so far? I'll give some thoughts on the pokemon i've used and faced.
Xerneas:
Hoooly shit. With powerherb and geomancy, Xerneas gets +2 SpA, SpD and Speed in a single turn. Currently on PS it doesn't have any coverage moves, but it still go a long way with Moonblast alone. Definitely ubers, that goes without saying. It's kind of like using a White Herb Cloyster, except with a better typing. I'm not entirely sure what can deal with it as of yet since I'm not an ubers play, but 252+ CB Scizor only does 80% to it with a bullet punch. If you do manage to force it out though, it's more screwed than a white herb cloyster would be, considering a 2 turn move is always a big risk.
Yvetal:He's pretty good honestly, not as good as Xerneas because he doesn't have access to ridiculous boosts. Oblivion wing makes him much balkier than he seems to be at first, and I saw someone using a Rest/Talk set with Oblivion Wing which was very hard to kill, although I doubt this set will do very well in ubers. Can't say much about him, will have to wait until more of his movepool is released.
Aegislash:
Hoooooly shit. Aegislash is not only godly, but extremely fun to use. I ran the set Sacred Sword/Shadow Sneak/Swords Dance/King's Shield. If you successfully pull of a King's Shield you essentially get a free Swords Dance. Infact his fantastic bulk gives you a free Swords Dance against most things, granted you can OHKO them with +2 Shadow Sneak. I went for Sacred Sword/Shadow Sneak for perfect coverage, but honestly I don't think it works so well. Because of Stance Change, there are a lot of situations where I just don't want to Shadow Sneak, so this Aegislash set plays very similarly to a monoattacking set. I also had many opportunities to set up Swords Dance so I think Iron Head may actually be the better option. If this guy gets Pain Split it's gonna be crazy. While he's very good I don't see him being OP. You can spam EQ to deal with him (I suppose this means he synergises well with flying types), and dark type special attackers also give him trouble. Sensing high OU on this one.
Greninja:
He's quite nice, a fast uturn is very welcome. I've heard rumours that he gets things like taunt and rapid spin, which will make him an interesting choice as a fast support pivot. With his currently implemented movepool he's kinda crap, not strong enough to deal any real damage. Water Shurikens deal pitiful damage as well, not exactly a reliable priority move, which is what you want a priority move to be. If he does get rapid spin I can totally see him being UU, otherwise he's most likely going to be RU.
Water/Dark is just such weird typing. I guess it gives Mega Gyarados a unique niche since it resists Dark/Ghost and Steel no longer does. It has great Spec. Defense and decent defense/Intimidate to tank. Wish it got a bigger (or any) boost in speed so you could invest more in bulk.
Mold Breaker is always decent on any physical attacker that has Earthquake. Gyarados will also get to use Intimidate, maybe even more than once since it's an actually viable pokemon unlike Mawile who will Mega Evolve ASAP. It also, unlike Mawile, can be used in Mega-mind games since it's viable outside of its Mega Evolution.
I will never forgive Gamefreak for not making it Water Dragon. They nerfed Dragon enough this gen, who cares if one would be OP!!!
Mold Breaker is always decent on any physical attacker that has Earthquake. Gyarados will also get to use Intimidate, maybe even more than once since it's an actually viable pokemon unlike Mawile who will Mega Evolve ASAP. It also, unlike Mawile, can be used in Mega-mind games since it's viable outside of its Mega Evolution.
I will never forgive Gamefreak for not making it Water Dragon. They nerfed Dragon enough this gen, who cares if one would be OP!!!
It really makes no sense that they didn't make it water/dragon...
Does the 30 boost to attack help it in anyway?
So I just started the game and went to my rivals house, turned on the TV...saw a show about abilities, and it highlighted Infiltrator. It says that Infiltrator can now go through Substitute.
Can anyone else confirm this? It's just what the show said, and I didn't take a picture of it...
Can anyone else confirm this? It's just what the show said, and I didn't take a picture of it...
They already released a ton of dragons this generation (despite completely nerfing them?) so that's probably the main reason. The attack boost will help it keep up with other Megas and justify using it over regular Gyarados, but I really think people will have to find other ways to utilize Mega Gyara's unique features to make it worth a spot on their team.
Also maybe Heatran could be a decent check to Xerneas? x4 resisting Fairy FTW. It also has Roar. At the least, it can probably take a boosted Moonblast and Roar it out, wasting its Power Herb. Doubt it can do much damage to Xerneas once it has +2 in Spec. Def even with super effective STAB...
After seeing that Mega Ampharos' Special Attack has supposedly only been buffed by 20 points from 115 to 135, I find this somewhat hard to believe. IIRC, Mega Ampharos had an astounding amount of damage output on the Pokemon Smash WiFi battle, where it OHKOed Mega Blaziken with Thunder and did like 65% damage to Gogoat with a nerfed Dragon Pulse right after Slowbro deals like barely 40% with a super-effective Ice Beam. After doing some calcs and making ALL the Pokemon nuetral natures and EVs, here are the pathetic damage calcs that the supposed 135 SpA Mega Ampharos does: (Gogoat's stats have been confirmed)
0 SpA Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gogoat: 135-159 (34.52 - 40.66%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gogoat: 178-210 (45.52 - 53.7%) -- 41.02% chance to 2HKO
Even Max SpA positive nature fails to do anywhere near what Mega Ampharos did to Gogoat in the video
That's shit. Seeing this, I don't see how it's possible that Mega Ampharos only got a measly 20 point raise to its SpA. Very strange indeed. I originally heard it was around 150, and that would make more sense.
0 SpA Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gogoat: 135-159 (34.52 - 40.66%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gogoat: 178-210 (45.52 - 53.7%) -- 41.02% chance to 2HKO
Even Max SpA positive nature fails to do anywhere near what Mega Ampharos did to Gogoat in the video
That's shit. Seeing this, I don't see how it's possible that Mega Ampharos only got a measly 20 point raise to its SpA. Very strange indeed. I originally heard it was around 150, and that would make more sense.
This gen is gonna see a lot of highs and ups. I wanna get to what I think might be in the next gen in terms of OU. I know it's just gonna be me rambling on about what may or may not be but I got to thinking a lot of the future. This is what me and a bunch of friends came up with.
The fall of steel types not named Lucario
Metagross and Jirachi are pretty much SOL in X and Y. With the new type chart into the next gen ghost types are gonna be ridiculously popular and these two are plagued with the typing of Psychic/Steel type. While this helped in Gen 5, it means that this gen they will be super effectively weak to two things. Also, other steel types such as Cobalion, Bronzong, and etc. will start to lose their edge even more thanks to the newer system. Another problem will arrive with the fact that Gen VI is gonna bring some more grass types. With that comes more fire-types entering in like Victini or Infernape making all the steel type's situation worse. Only a handful of steel types will be unaffected by this. Scizor is still gonna be a threat because of it's awesome Bug/Steel typing but will drop slightly because of the lack of steel types roaming around and the supposed Drizzle nerf. Ferrothorn, while he loses out on some resistances is already bulky enough to take a neutral hit and retaliate back. Lucario is going to be unaffected at all mainly because he was already frail enough. With the popularity of Ghost types probably gonna reach a climax in Gen VI many of them will carry Focus Blast. But a problem with that is Lucario already outspeeds most of the competition anyway and what he doesn't outspeed is a problem that has happened in this generation already. (Most notably Gengar)
The rise of the Phoenix (Fire Type popularity)
Looking at the new pokedex entries, Game Freak is giving a lot of love towards Ice and Grass types this time around. With that, a lot of pokemon that already exist are gonna be even more dominant this time around. Victini, Infernape, and even Moltres comes to mind. Infernape will tear a lot of the competition with it's trademark Mix-Master set as not only will it able to tear through steel, ice, and grass types like he did in the past generations but now he will be able to tear through newer opponents that might become popular like Aegislash or Aurorus. Victini will probably crawl out for the realm of UU and enter in as OU simply because of how powerful Victini's moves are and how the face of the new OU in Gen VI will be slightly more..Green. V-Create and Bolt Strike are moves not to be trifled with. Other fire types like Moltres and Entei will enjoy their usage as more steel types will probably drop down to play in RU or NU. Despite a nasty stealth rock weakness they will rise up in usage and might even escape onto UU and better.
Unchained (Unchanged)
This is going to be a slightly boring selection as these guys are going to be massively unaffected by this change. Rotom-W will still be a dominant teammate, just now he'll have to watch out for 1 or 2 more threats and will probably be running Surf instead of Hydro Pump. Alakazam will be largely unaffected by this because as said before with Lucario concerning ghost types. He already outspeeds most of the competition and can retaliate easily back to opposing Gengar, Cofagrigus, Aegislash, etc. Keldeo is unaffected simply because of it's typing. Water-Fighting is a double edged sword and in this case with the slew of newer pokemon coming in will make Keldeo mostly unscathed despite possibly ditching one of it's most powerful moves.
Retired Ideal Pokemon
Hydreigon sux now.
Okay, i'm gonna do this for real now. Almost all dragon types will immediately get the shaft when Gen VI sinks into servers for play. Nearly any dragon that was dominant before will now be limited to sets set to wall breaking. Course, we already all know this so i'm not gonna talk about it too much. Other niche pokemon that had weather niches will immediately start to drop and lose purpose. Dugtrio is a prime example as despite having a blazing fast speed base of 120, has a despicable Atk base of 80. Also with the rumored weather nerfings it limits Dugtrio's use even further to the point that it's a niche that if a team is running a weather team and not a regular weatherless team which will be the most popular in Gen VI. With that, a lot of weather based pokemon also get the shaft and are reverted back to being a niche pokemon. Tentacruel, Toxicroak, Venusaur, Stoutland, and even banned pokemon like Excadrill or Ludicolo will be half of what they were and won't be able to sweep as effectively. Given that they still can, it'll just be very unforgiving if they mess up.
And with that, that's just what I honestly think. Course, I maybe wrong and OU will still just be OU without any newer additions and just a lot of stuff going to NU, RU, and UU. We will figure out until Smogon figures out how the tiers will run this time around. Until then adios~
EDIT: I did read ahead of time and found out that weather is now reduced to 5 turns. So yeah...Uhm...Goodbye Politoed?
The fall of steel types not named Lucario
Metagross and Jirachi are pretty much SOL in X and Y. With the new type chart into the next gen ghost types are gonna be ridiculously popular and these two are plagued with the typing of Psychic/Steel type. While this helped in Gen 5, it means that this gen they will be super effectively weak to two things. Also, other steel types such as Cobalion, Bronzong, and etc. will start to lose their edge even more thanks to the newer system. Another problem will arrive with the fact that Gen VI is gonna bring some more grass types. With that comes more fire-types entering in like Victini or Infernape making all the steel type's situation worse. Only a handful of steel types will be unaffected by this. Scizor is still gonna be a threat because of it's awesome Bug/Steel typing but will drop slightly because of the lack of steel types roaming around and the supposed Drizzle nerf. Ferrothorn, while he loses out on some resistances is already bulky enough to take a neutral hit and retaliate back. Lucario is going to be unaffected at all mainly because he was already frail enough. With the popularity of Ghost types probably gonna reach a climax in Gen VI many of them will carry Focus Blast. But a problem with that is Lucario already outspeeds most of the competition anyway and what he doesn't outspeed is a problem that has happened in this generation already. (Most notably Gengar)
The rise of the Phoenix (Fire Type popularity)
Looking at the new pokedex entries, Game Freak is giving a lot of love towards Ice and Grass types this time around. With that, a lot of pokemon that already exist are gonna be even more dominant this time around. Victini, Infernape, and even Moltres comes to mind. Infernape will tear a lot of the competition with it's trademark Mix-Master set as not only will it able to tear through steel, ice, and grass types like he did in the past generations but now he will be able to tear through newer opponents that might become popular like Aegislash or Aurorus. Victini will probably crawl out for the realm of UU and enter in as OU simply because of how powerful Victini's moves are and how the face of the new OU in Gen VI will be slightly more..Green. V-Create and Bolt Strike are moves not to be trifled with. Other fire types like Moltres and Entei will enjoy their usage as more steel types will probably drop down to play in RU or NU. Despite a nasty stealth rock weakness they will rise up in usage and might even escape onto UU and better.
Unchained (Unchanged)
This is going to be a slightly boring selection as these guys are going to be massively unaffected by this change. Rotom-W will still be a dominant teammate, just now he'll have to watch out for 1 or 2 more threats and will probably be running Surf instead of Hydro Pump. Alakazam will be largely unaffected by this because as said before with Lucario concerning ghost types. He already outspeeds most of the competition and can retaliate easily back to opposing Gengar, Cofagrigus, Aegislash, etc. Keldeo is unaffected simply because of it's typing. Water-Fighting is a double edged sword and in this case with the slew of newer pokemon coming in will make Keldeo mostly unscathed despite possibly ditching one of it's most powerful moves.
Retired Ideal Pokemon
Hydreigon sux now.
Okay, i'm gonna do this for real now. Almost all dragon types will immediately get the shaft when Gen VI sinks into servers for play. Nearly any dragon that was dominant before will now be limited to sets set to wall breaking. Course, we already all know this so i'm not gonna talk about it too much. Other niche pokemon that had weather niches will immediately start to drop and lose purpose. Dugtrio is a prime example as despite having a blazing fast speed base of 120, has a despicable Atk base of 80. Also with the rumored weather nerfings it limits Dugtrio's use even further to the point that it's a niche that if a team is running a weather team and not a regular weatherless team which will be the most popular in Gen VI. With that, a lot of weather based pokemon also get the shaft and are reverted back to being a niche pokemon. Tentacruel, Toxicroak, Venusaur, Stoutland, and even banned pokemon like Excadrill or Ludicolo will be half of what they were and won't be able to sweep as effectively. Given that they still can, it'll just be very unforgiving if they mess up.
And with that, that's just what I honestly think. Course, I maybe wrong and OU will still just be OU without any newer additions and just a lot of stuff going to NU, RU, and UU. We will figure out until Smogon figures out how the tiers will run this time around. Until then adios~
EDIT: I did read ahead of time and found out that weather is now reduced to 5 turns. So yeah...Uhm...Goodbye Politoed?
megakangaskhan can use spite, which would basically work like a permanent disable on certain moves
electrify looks like it could be really nasty on jolteon
electrify looks like it could be really nasty on jolteon
it's a normal type move, meaning it doesn't hit anything for SE damage
exploud better learn that move
exploud better learn that move
I was about to post this, but then I saw you just did. This'll definitely be a gamechanging move. Assuming it gets decent distribution, of course.
For doubles, Mat Block is basically a protect for both pokemon, although it doesn't stop status moves.
Super Mario Bro
All we ever look for
Wow, that entry hazard is amazing, and I could see it being a staple on competitive teams, depending on its distribution. Defensive teams won't get hindered by it, since they aren't affected much by a drop in speed, while offense will absolutely detest dealing with it. On the other hand, heavy stall probably wouldn't find much use in it, since most pokes on those teams would be slower than those on the opposing team, even with the speed drop factored in (assuming Sticky Web only drops speed by one level, and that it's not possible to stack its effect à la Spikes). Another thing I noticed is that offense teams themselves would probably want to use it because it would let their sweepers outspeed revenge killers.
Another thing that stood out to me is:
Parting Shot
Did we really need a Memento and U-Turn in one?
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Saw a post about Mawile's MEvo the previous page. My guess for a set is that you could use substitute and pain split to help get things into KO range of sucker punch or a physical fairy move, which I think would get the best neutral coverage.
Doesn't really allow it to sweep like some might want, but it would be a major pest nonetheless, especially with that 50HP stat.
Doesn't really allow it to sweep like some might want, but it would be a major pest nonetheless, especially with that 50HP stat.
and a page up with updated attacks from previous gens
http://www.serebii.net/xy/updatedattacks.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/xy/updatedattacks.shtml
haunter
Banned deucer.
This one also seems interesting. It's a multi-hit water move with priority. Depending on the Pokemon that get it, it might be useful.Water Shuriken
20 15 100 The user hits the target with throwing stars two to five times in a row. This move always goes first.
I'm wondering why Leaf Storm and Overheat got nerfed to 130 BP and there's no sign of it happening to Draco Meteor? Or Psycho Burst? Am I forgetting something else?
Knock Off buffed to 55 BP, WoW to 85 Acc, and Roar/Whirlwind no longer affected by accuracy modifiers. Nice.
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EDIT:
Nope, that's all. It's Psycho Boost though.
List is incomplete, likely applies to Draco Meteor as well.
The Knock Off buff is great in general (despite Mega Stones being immune), and technicimons what learn it will greatly appreciate it.
The buff to Frost Breath (60 BP) will likely make it the new go-to Special Ice-STAB, with an effective 120 BP, 90 accuracy, and decent distribution among Ice-types.
Fury Cutter may actually be worthwhile now, as starting at 40 BP will allow it to ramp up much quicker.
Pin Missile got a boost to 25 BP, hopefully solely for the purpose of justifying Skill Link on Mega Heracross.
Boomburst's only drawback seems to be hitting allies in multi-battles, which makes it ridiculous in singles. Hopefully it gets good distribution (Meloetta, anyone?)
Nuzzle's description seems to imply it has a guaranteed Paralysis. With 100% accuracy, its effectively a damaging Thunder Wave.
New items:
http://serebii.net/xy/newitems.shtml
Of note are the Assault Vest, which gives a boost to SpD (guessing +1, maybe +2) at the cost of preventing the use of status moves, Safety Goggles, which prevent weather damage and powder (guessing Powder, Rage Powder, Sleep Powder, PoisonPowder, Stun Spore, and Spore?), and Weakness Policy, which grants +2 Attack and Special Attack when hit by a super effective move.
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Will-o-wisp to 85 Accuracy is huge. Especially with Mega Banette's and Sableye's Prankster... horrifying...
I had the impression, Steel-types would be even more popular thanks to the fairies' mischief (though maybe it's because there's not much variety in OU-viable fairies? Togekiss seems like the only sure OU at the moment). Surely Scizor and Heatran would be insanely popular should more retcons be confirmed (Please be true Ghost/Fairy Mismagius), and there's also Aegislash which is all-around great. Jirachi is still the most rage-inducing thing next to Skymin, I don't see it leaving OU anytime. Metagross and poor Bronzong aren't so lucky though...
I actually can get behind Fire-types making a sort of resurgence just because permanent Drizzle is no longer. Fighting appears to be prone to decline as well, therefore less prominent for fighting Steel. Of course, Heatran will still be all the rage seeing as it counters so many threats. I really don't see how Gamefreak love Ice though (actually my impression was they hate Ice).
On another note, Outrage might fall out of use in a big way now that fairy is a thing. Probably it'll be reserved for late-game sweepers, definitely not as your generic Automatic Win Button.
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Critical hits have been nerfed- they give a x1,5 boost instead of x2. So now Frost Breath is basically Ice Beam that ignores defensive boosts at the expense of %10 accuracy, which is neat, I guess. Blizzard under Hail is still superior to it though.
Venom Drench seems like a decent move for maybe Crobat etc. Or any mon that can force a switch. Lowering Spec. Atk, Atk, and Speed is pretty good.
I wonder if Sticky Web only works once? Doubtful. You would think GF would give us more than 1 new Rapid Spin user. :/ Is there any word on Greninja possibly having Rapid Spin? I don't really believe it but it would be very beneficial.
I wonder if Sticky Web only works once? Doubtful. You would think GF would give us more than 1 new Rapid Spin user. :/ Is there any word on Greninja possibly having Rapid Spin? I don't really believe it but it would be very beneficial.
So this is why Sylveon survived that massive Politoed Hydro Pump in the demo? Actually, I really like that change.
What about Sniper?
EDIT: Dragon Pulse is now 85 BP instead of 90. They really are serious about nerfing dragons.
On the other hand, Energy Ball is now increased to 90 BP. Venusaur and co. will really like it.
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So... Belch seems like a wasted slot. 120BP, 90acc special Poison-move is cool at first, but it hinges on just how it interacts with berries. Can you not use it until a berry has been used, or does using it consume the berry? And can you continue using it after the fact? Ultimately, not likely to be worth using due to berries being subpar items for the most part.
EDIT: As for Sticky Webbing, even if its stuck with Spider Web's distribution, we will at least have Galvantula to abuse it.
EDIT2: The buff to Energy Ball might once again justify its use over Giga Drain on offensive mons.
EDIT: As for Sticky Webbing, even if its stuck with Spider Web's distribution, we will at least have Galvantula to abuse it.
EDIT2: The buff to Energy Ball might once again justify its use over Giga Drain on offensive mons.
Also, why make Land's Wrath when we have Earthquake? There's not even an effect in the flavour text.
EDIT: And Poison-types have an accuracy-boosted Gunk Shot anyway... (it's a physical move, but still.)
EDIT2: Another thing: the new and improved Rock Tomb could be quite useful for Techniloom. (No more Low Sweep though.)
EDIT: And Poison-types have an accuracy-boosted Gunk Shot anyway... (it's a physical move, but still.)
EDIT2: Another thing: the new and improved Rock Tomb could be quite useful for Techniloom. (No more Low Sweep though.)
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