Other Looking Ahead to Gen VI Mark II (SEE POSTS #818 & #858)

[alexwolf]

Well with nerfed weather I don't think it sounds really appealing (for 100% chance you need sun up). And relying on 50% chance to get your berry back after consuming sounds really shaky. Not a fan of this ability myself honestly.

As the fellas from RU and NU can confirm, Harvest Exeggutor makes good use of Lum Berry just fine even without perma-sun, so Trevenant is looking really good right now. Decent stats, good movepool, and an awesome typing will make it at least OU viable, if not OU material.

Also, defensive Aegislash can counter Mega Lucario at least once:

- 252+ Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash: 112-134 (34.56 - 41.35%) -- 70.36% chance to 3HKO

...while Aegislash can answer back with either Sacred Sword or WoW (assuming it gets it, but all Ghost-types except from Golurk get it iirc).

I'm thinking that assault vest might be a decent choice on Aegislash because it will make him even more difficult to take down from the special side and you have king's shield for the physical attacks.

Also Aegislash is also going to suffer from a severe case of 4MSS because you want king's shield, his two boosting moves and Iron head, shadow sneak and sacred sword for coverage.

You can't use non attacking moves with Assault Vest.

 

[Soda]

I wonder if Focus Blast is included. Probably not, but this still gives Chesnaut incredible resilience to Gengar.

Very true as Gengar doesn't learn Sludge Wave!

I think they should have included Wave moves as well. Would've given him an interesting immunity to Thunder Wave and also to Sludge Wave, whose existence completely undermines his immunity to Sludge Bomb lol. Gengar is just about the only Special-oriented Poison type that doesn't get it.

 

[Luigi player]

Actually I need to redo the calculation because I mistyped

Scarf Trum vs

- Choice Scarf Garchomp
Stone Edge - 23.2% - 27.4%
Head Smash - 34.6% - 41.1%
EQ - 31% - 36.6%
Crunch - 24.9% - 29.3%(Jawless))
Dragon Claw - 74.3% - 87.7%

- Standard EV-less Gengar
Head Smash - 137.4% - 161.8%
Stone Edge - 91.6% - 108%
Crunch - 98.5% - 116%(Jawless)

- 252/252+ Jirachi
Crunch - 36.2% - 42.2%(Jawless)
Head Smash - 25.1% - 29.8%
Stone Edge - 16.7% - 19.9%
EQ - 45% - 53.2%

- SD M.Lucario
Head Smash - 24.2% - 28.5%
EQ - 86.8% - 102.5%
Stone Edge - 16% - 19.2%


Durability with no investment

- M. Luca +0
Bullet Punch - 52% - 61.6%
Crunch - 25.7% - 30.2%
E. Speed - 12.7% - 15.1%

- Band Zor
Bullet Punch - 83.4% - 98.5%
U-Turn - 48.3% - 57.4%

- LO Gar
Shadow Ball - 77.3% - 91.5%
SS Shadow Ball - 52% - 61.6%
Focus Miss is double of these value, but they always misses

- Bandzumarill
Aqua Jet - 30.8% - 36.6%

- Mamoswine
CB Jolly Ice Shard - 50.8% - 60.4%
CB Adamant Ice Shard - 56.2% - 65.9%

So, yeah sorry to those who read that mistyped calcs >_>
This is much less amazing than what I thought

what base stats did you assume for it? and why is crunch always without strong jaw? just put it as stab since it's a 50 % boost

 

[doughboy]

I'm thinking that assault vest might be a decent choice on Aegislash because it will make him even more difficult to take down from the special side and you have king's shield for the physical attacks.

Also Aegislash is also going to suffer from a severe case of 4MSS because you want king's shield, his two boosting moves and Iron head, shadow sneak and sacred sword for coverage.

Coogrr You won't be able to use King's Shield with Assault Vest because Assault Vest prevents non attacking moves.

Actually, Aegislash doesn't even need to use King's Shield in conjugation with SD. It is completely viable to drop King's Shield for a coverage move. Meet offensive SD Aegislash:

Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak

This thing plays out a lot like offensive SD Scizor, Aegislash is only 10 points shy from Scizor. What you do is that you bring this thing out on a free switch or something that can't touch it such as Forretress. In defensive form you try to grab as many SD's as possible and when you feel it is necessary, attack. Backed up with a Life Orb, Shadow Sneak is impressively powerful. Aegislash possesses just enough speed to outspeed defensive Pokemon and most steel-types, so you should be a-ok for a sweep against most teams once they have been weakened. This would make a great late game sweeper for offensive teams. It's advantages over Scizor include more bulk, better defensive typing, ability to spin block, and the ability to set up more easily. Adamant is for getting that power with Shadow Sneak, but the extra speed might help against some neutral base 70 max threats.

Here are some calcs:

Hide

Offensive threats:
252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 242-283 (92.72 - 108.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

You can spin block your SR against Starmie and immediately threaten it out!

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-T: 278-329 (92.97 - 110.03%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 227-269 (70.27 - 83.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 251-296 (95.8 - 112.97%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 199-234 (61.6 - 72.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 218-257 (67.28 - 79.32%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 218-257 (60.89 - 71.78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Walls:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 265-313 (63.09 - 74.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 177-209 (52.99 - 62.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 177-209 (50 - 59.03%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 311-367 (76.98 - 90.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 269-317 (70.05 - 82.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Shadow Sneak vs. 248 HP / 244 Def Tentacruel: 216-255 (59.5 - 70.24%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 432-510 (122.72 - 144.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[sidakarya]

That is impressive. One thing is that Blade-forme Aegislash, once set up, is extremely frail even with that wonderful typing, and things that can resist Shadow Sneak will probably fell it in one hit. It will be great paired with a fighting-type or even fairy-type for sundry dark threats.

Thinking about it, with the new Fairy typing, Iron Tail and Iron Head may become legit coverage options on all the Pokemon whose STAB is resisted by Fairy. Dragons like Haxorus could run Iron Tail to catch such Pokemon on the switch (although Azumarill is neutral to it :( ). Dark-types like Absol could find a Fighting move less necessary since Steel doesn't resist Dark anymore, too. Thoughts?

Strangely enough, Salamence and Dragonite could use Thunderbolt/Punch instead of Fire Blast/Punch for Togekiss and Azumarill (at the moment the two fairies that can reliably check its usual sets) while still covering Skarmory and Cloyster. Though pure physical sets will lose to Hippowdon, Donphan and Gliscor if they do use it, and if the Lake Pixies and Cresselia ever gain Fairy-type when they come December, you really would have to resort to non-STAB Steel for coverage.

 

[4TEHGUY]

What are you gaining by using Secret Sword? It has very redundant coverage with Iron Head and doesn't even hit most Steels (which I'm assuming it's there to do) for SE damage. Plus, King's Shield gives Aegislash a buffer against faster threats if it needs to set up more Sword Dance's. Automize could replace it, but Aeg already has Shadow Sneak for speed and Phantom Force is meh.

 

[sidakarya]

What are you gaining by using Secret Sword? It has very redundant coverage with Iron Head and doesn't even hit most Steels (which I'm assuming it's there to do) for SE damage. Plus, King's Shield gives Aegislash a buffer against faster threats if it needs to set up more Sword Dance's. Automize could replace it, but Aeg already has Shadow Sneak for speed and Phantom Force is meh.

I think it's supposed to cover Dark-types (since Aegislash is even slower than Tyranitar), and of course because of the Ghost+Fighting unresisted combo. Though King's Shield might as well be a protection against Dark, since most of those moves make contact.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Does eviolite work on mega pre-evolutions?

 

[BloodGod22]

Looks like there has been a new "entry hazard" added to Gen VI. Sticky Web.
As the name suggests a web is placed around the opposing team and Pokemon that switch in suffer from a Speed-Drop.
Competitively speaking, this is huge. This new entry hazard just might be on par with Stealth Rock. It may not directly damage your Pokemon but it'll give offensive Pokemon such as MegaLucario and MegaGengar a tough time especially since they rely heavily on their new-found Speed stats.
Sticky Web seriously lends a helping head towards bulkier Pokemon and more balanced teams in general as well. Tanks such as Goodra find themselves able to outspeed relevant threats and KO them with an appropriate coverage move.
What do you guys think about Sticky Web?

I think it's a broken move that completely destroys the meta game, just like Stealth Rock.
No move should cause such pressure on your opponent, at least not a "fire and forget" hazard.
It's kind of hard to believe GF wanted to balance the game when they pull a stunt like this.

 

[Luigi player]

What are you gaining by using Secret Sword? It has very redundant coverage with Iron Head and doesn't even hit most Steels (which I'm assuming it's there to do) for SE damage. Plus, King's Shield gives Aegislash a buffer against faster threats if it needs to set up more Sword Dance's. Automize could replace it, but Aeg already has Shadow Sneak for speed and Phantom Force is meh.

There are so many Pokemon that you can't really scratch with Steel moves. And Shadow Sneak is nice and all, but it still has really low BP so it won't get the job done unless you get many SDs in. Not to mention you need to kill with SN if you use it, since otherwise you'll take a defenseless hit and probably die.

Aegislash wants to be slower than the opponent so that it is hit while having good defenses.

Kings Shield is also easy to predict because of that. Used a move and now you're in blade forme? Well, obvious thing is obvious. If you can't do much with Shadow Sneak you'll probably switch or use Kings Shield. So the opponent can setup himself or switch to something that takes care of Aegislash.

 

[doughboy]

Does eviolite work on mega pre-evolutions?

You can't hold two items at once (eviolite and megastone). also all of the mevo's are fully evolved q.q

 

[Lord Raiden]

Sticky Web sounds cool, especially because it sounds like a Bug move (and I want more Bug type representation in the higher tiers, because I am fond of them), but now that I think of it I question the balance aspect of it too.

The first thing that came to mind was using it to allow slower pokemon to outspeed things that would normally be too fast for them, but it won't make any difference if a faster pokemon can learn it, or if highly offensive teams find a way to run it.

A speed-reducing entry hazard will not make slower pokemon speed up. If a team with mostly slower pokemon uses Sticky Web against a team with mostly faster pokemon, but the team with mostly faster pokemon uses it first, then both teams are back to square one.

 

[X5Dragon]

Very true as Gengar doesn't learn Sludge Wave!

===============

I don't think Mawile would be eligible for holding an evolite just because it has a MEvo, but that would be interesting to try anyway.

 

[4TEHGUY]

There are so many Pokemon that you can't really scratch with Steel moves. And Shadow Sneak is nice and all, but it still has really low BP so it won't get the job done unless you get many SDs in. Not to mention you need to kill with SN if you use it, since otherwise you'll take a defenseless hit and probably die.

Aegislash wants to be slower than the opponent so that it is hit while having good defenses.

Kings Shield is also easy to predict because of that. Used a move and now you're in blade forme? Well, obvious thing is obvious. If you can't do much with Shadow Sneak you'll probably switch or use Kings Shield. So the opponent can setup himself or switch to something that takes care of Aegislash.

Setting up SD is exactly what King's Shield is supposed to help with. Shadow Sneak might sound weak but it's STAB coming off of 150 attack most likely with a SD boost and possibly Life Orb. Also, just because Aegislash will probably use King's Shield soesn't exactly mean it will. Prediction works both ways, saying Aegislash will always use King's Shield so it's beatable just isn't true.

 

[CelestialRibbon]

Do we have any estimates for a GenVI non-mega OU list yet?

 

[haunter]

Do we have any estimates for a GenVI non-mega OU list yet?

Not yet. We're working on it though.

 

[sidakarya]

I think it's a broken move that completely destroys the meta game, just like Stealth Rock.
No move should cause such pressure on your opponent, at least not a "fire and forget" hazard.
It's kind of hard to believe GF wanted to balance the game when they pull a stunt like this.

If it has Electroweb's distribution except for Electric-types (that is, only bugs that really aren't great) it might not be that terrible. As of now, if I recall it's not a TM or a move tutor. It looks like Galvantula's the only workable user now.

 

[CelestialRibbon]

Not yet. We're working on it though.

Thank you. I look forward to its completion. Please let me know if I may be of any assistance regarding the matter.

 

[Stone RG]

So, i took myself 2 days from this discuession and we have what? 20+ more pages than friday? Welp, getting straght into the point:

Sticky Web: broken move, give the offensive metagame im assuming there will be, any pokemon with the ability of using this move might get usage just for that sole reason: lowering all of the opposing offensive pokes Speed stat is ridicoulus, it basically saves you from any possible sweep, not to mention the horrible time offensive teams will have spinning this shit considering starmie is the standard premier spinner.

Mega-Lucario: welp, i found really funny how a lot of people tried to argue Mega Luke will ever be running Ice Punch when a +2 Adaptability CC prolly does 70+ to its standard ''counters'', aka Gliscor and Lando T (dont quote me on this tho) minor prior damage and welp, swept if thats your only answer. I can only think of Aegislash as a reliable counter... and it becomes a mind game between Kings Shield or not, if anybody seriously considers that a pokemon that can 6-0 entire teams given a single turn of set up and a simple prediction isnt broken... wtf am i talking about? this thing has Ekiller arceus+ levels of sweeping.

Most other megas have similar traits, incapability to be switched into except by an extremely sparse group, simple predictions costing games, etc.

EDIT: also, thank you guys for updating talonflame's potential today, when i already caught and trained my in-game Litleo as my Fire-type .______.

Eh, welp, do we have anymore information on the movepool on Flabaebe's last evo whose name escapes me at the moment?

 

[Lord Raiden]

Do we have any estimates for a GenVI non-mega OU list yet?

That's actually something else I wanted to bring up...

I was worried when it looked like there were only about 70 new pokemon, because I realized that if we ignore the usual low-BST "starting route pokemon", and the three starting pokemon, there really isn't much there to "freshen up" the higher tiers.

From what I've read so far, the only new families that will bring anything to the competitive table (that is, end up being viable in the higher tiers besides Uber) are Goodra, Tyrantrum, Aegislash, Trevenant, Pangoro, Clawitzer, Dragalgae, and possibly Noivern and Barbaracle.

I haven't been paying as much attention to the stats of the new pokemon as some, so maybe I'm being incredibly ignorant of something, and other new pokemon could end up with amazing new hidden abilities, but there still won't be much to pull from in terms of new pokemon.

EDIT: Holy crap, speaking of which, according to Serebii, Delphox has the hidden ability "Magician", which allows it to "steal an item when using a move" (no info on specific rate or triggers...).

 

[Soda]

I'm all for Sticky Web, I love the idea of it but it or Rapid Spin will be required on almost all teams. I just wish that they had given us more than 1 new Rapid Spin user this generation with said user seeming decent but certainly not good enough to be a top-tier rapid spinner. Starmie and Forretress are STILL the best Rapid Spinners, STILL. Gamefreak sucks at giving anything good Rapid Spin. It's really kinda uncool. I suppose we will most likely get Excadrill down to OU which gives us another Rapid Spinner but still, it's just not good enough. Gamefreak has improved on almost all aspects of the game but they just don't seem to care about balancing entry hazards. Here's hoping that Bugs absorb Sticky Web on switch in or something like that.

Also, Dephox's ability is just like Pickpocket. It's decent and makes Delphox possibly a good Gem user.

 

[sidakarya]

From what I've read so far, the only new families that will bring anything to the competitive table (that is, end up being viable in the higher tiers besides Uber) are Goodra, Tyrantrum, Aegislash, Trevenant, Pangoro, Clawitzer, Dragalgae, and possibly Noivern and Barbaracle.

I haven't been paying as much attention to the stats of the new pokemon as some, so maybe I'm being incredibly ignorant of something, and other new pokemon could end up with amazing new hidden abilities, but there still won't be much to pull from in terms of new pokemon.

There is a distinct lack of power-creep in the new Pokemon. IMO future tier shifts look more interesting, most of the all fairy retcons. Togekiss is surely ready for its joyous return to OU, and even Azumarill looks like it can hold up on its own thanks to its new typing. Any Bug-types that could learn Sticky Web that's not utterly terrible would instantly see more use, seeing as how it's as game-changing as Stealth Rock. On the other hand, the weather nerf means Politoed and co. might fall out of the higher tiers (Hippowdon and Tyranitar stay because they're great anyway). Likewise, many weather abusers (Keldeo got nerfed really hard this time).

EDIT: Also there's Avalugg, which would be a great physical wall if it only had a better typing...!

 

[CelestialRibbon]

That's actually something else I wanted to bring up...

I was worried when it looked like there were only about 70 new pokemon, because I realized that if we ignore the usual low-BST "starting route pokemon", and the three starting pokemon, there really isn't much there to "freshen up" the higher tiers.

From what I've read so far, the only new families that will bring anything to the competitive table (that is, end up being viable in the higher tiers besides Uber) are Goodra, Tyrantrum, Aegislash, Trevenant, Pangoro, Clawitzer, Dragalgae, and possibly Noivern and Barbaracle.

I haven't been paying as much attention to the stats of the new pokemon as some, so maybe I'm being incredibly ignorant of something, and other new pokemon could end up with amazing new hidden abilities, but there still won't be much to pull from in terms of new pokemon.

That bit on there being very little to freshen up the meta was the sole reason I chose to ask about the new OU list. I was wondering if Fairies would do anything about the OU meta having been ruled by Dragons. I was also wondering if there'd be any additions or changes that would make Heatran a tad easier to counter, especially since it (at least to me) seemed to rely on some sort of plan where you had only a chance of countering him and you just had to cross your fingers and hope to a deity of choice that it worked lest you nerf the whole match for yourself.

 

[Lord Raiden]

There is a distinct lack of power-creep in the new Pokemon. IMO future tier shifts look more interesting, most of the all fairy retcons. Togekiss is surely ready for its joyous return to OU, and even Azumarill looks like it can hold up on its own thanks to its new typing. Any Bug-types that could learn Sticky Web would instantly see more use, seeing as how it's as game-changing as Stealth Rock.

EDIT: Also there's Avalugg, which would be a great physical wall if it only had a better typing...!

Yeah, I like Avalugg, but until gamefreak gets it's act together and fixes the underpowered typings, all of the cool Ice types (heheh, puns) will probably be something like one tier lower than their stats would put them into.

Also, don't get me wrong; I was so pissed off about the power creep in gen. V that I didn't buy the games. I like that the pokemon in this generation seem to be more well-designed in terms of gameplay interactions and the metagame, but there aren't very many of them, and I think that more pokemon like them would really help keep the metagame from stagnating.

 

[GreatEclipse]

There is a distinct lack of power-creep in the new Pokemon. IMO future tier shifts look more interesting, most of the all fairy retcons. Togekiss is surely ready for its joyous return to OU, and even Azumarill looks like it can hold up on its own thanks to its new typing. Any Bug-types that could learn Sticky Web would instantly see more use, seeing as how it's as game-changing as Stealth Rock. On the other hand, the weather nerfs means Politoed and co. are likely to fall out of the higher tiers. (Hippowdon and Tyranitar stay because they're great anyway)

EDIT: Also there's Avalugg, which would be a great physical wall (if it only had a better typing...!)

The power-creep does look pretty bad when you consider the mega-evolutions, though. It's not the concept itself I have a problem with, it's that all but maybe 3 are designed for the sole purpose of being sweepers/wall breakers, and it will make building a stall team almost impossible. I would personally like to see them all restricted to Ubers right at the start, with testing then done on a case-by-case basis to see which ones are okay for OU.

Also, Avalugg would be awesome if permanent hail still existed. Leftovers + Ice Body + Recover = best Toxic staller ever.