Other Stall

[blitzlefan]

I'm wondering how much damage an Assault Vest Sassy Tyranitar takes from Starmie's Hydro Pump now.

EDIT: Apparently just barely over 50% minimum, damn.

Well if you're calculating for Assault Vest (and sand, I'm assuming), the calculation goes like this:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 135-164 (33.41 - 40.59%) -- 37.94% chance to 3HKO
(I just used Offensive Rapid Spin Starmie vs. Support Tyranitar at +1 with sand in play)

Edit: Too slow, sorry ;_:

 

[repulsion]

I think a balanced/semi-stall approach will become more common in the lower tiers. The more offensive Mega Evolutions will mostly wind up in Ubers and OU. As much as the power creep turned BW2 UU into a haven for incredibly powerful Fighting, Fire and Electric types, a balanced approach remained viable thanks to Pokemon like Snorlax, Cofagrigus, Rhyperior, Umbreon, etc. More defensive Pokemon are likely to drop, including Chansey (although it may get BL'd again). The stall buffs like the sleep counter de-nerfing (Snorlax and Suicine will be pleased), crit nerf and some lower base powers for special moves will be of significant benefit.

 

[Haruno]

With any luck we'll have GSC level of stall play.

 

[PKMN1]

With any luck we'll have GSC level of stall play.

My only answer to that statement

I love stall, but GSC stall was a bit much

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

My only answer to that statement

I love stall, but GSC stall was a bit much

oh come on now its not that bad, if both sides are playing quickly it could be done in maybe 30 minutes, once someone's Snorlax breaks through :)

 

[PurpleCordial]

I can't believe someone hasn't yet at least brought up Topsy Turvy. The ability to completely reverse the set up of sweepers is a extremely valuable tool of stall. Given to a half decent wall (Malamar and Digersby don't really have walking potential) could make wall breakers that rely on set up moves a waste of a team slot to the opposing team.
If a prankster Pokemon or two got this it could completely make set up sweepers a thing of the part and aid stall infinitely.

 

[Runic]

On top of that it's confirmed that Infiltrator bypasses Substitute. Which means that Pokemon like Noivern and Chandleure can get past that.

Not to mention Crobat, who's already a really good stallbreaker.

 

[Tesung]

What about the fact that nothing reliably spin blocks offensive starmie, still, while the only viable spinner for stall, forretress, is spinblocked by everything. At least in gen 5 we had sub toxic tentacruel in the rain, now there is nothing. This puts offense on so much better footing.

 

[raddaya]

Why would Aegislash not reliably spin block starmie?

 

[PurpleCordial]

What about the fact that nothing reliably spin blocks offensive starmie

Um Aegislash can be EVd to check it nicely: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/aegislash.3489876/#post-4883324

Also, switching in on Rapid Spin, M-Gengar wrecks Starmie. Jellicent walls Starmie better now due to the nerf to Thunder's base power and Rain being not permanent:

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Jellicent: 187-222 (46.28 - 54.95%) -- 10.55% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 182-216 (45.04 - 53.46%) -- 1.17% chance to 2HKO

Specs can break through although but can't spin on that turn

 

[Jaroda]

Aegislash may need to be the spinblocker of choice if youre concerned with MegaGar or Starmie. Being in defebse form initially is a boon. someone needs to perform the damage calcs but I would assume STAB Shadow Sneak off 150 attack is enough to OHKO MegaGar, whose defense is still paltry. So its at least a check there since MegaGar would be a fool to stay in and be revenged by Shadow Sneak, but there is the threat of Sword Dance on the switch so 50/50. Hydro Pump is the strongest attack Starmie can use on Aegis so whats the damage of that on the defensive switch, and can any form of Aegis OHKO with Shadow Sneak?

 

[Zerilan]

Aegislash may need to be the spinblocker of choice if youre concerned with MegaGar or Starmie. Being in defebse form initially is a boon. someone needs to perform the damage calcs but I would assume STAB Shadow Sneak off 150 attack is enough to OHKO MegaGar, whose defense is still paltry. So its at least a check there since MegaGar would be a fool to stay in and be revenged by Shadow Sneak, but there is the threat of Sword Dance on the switch so 50/50. Hydro Pump is the strongest attack Starmie can use on Aegis so whats the damage of that on the defensive switch, and can any form of Aegis OHKO with Shadow Sneak?

LO Analytic Starmie does under 70% to 252HP Aegis. 252 Attack EVs, Life Orb and Adamant is a guarantee of OHKO on Shadow Sneak with SR down.

 

[Jaroda]

LO Analytic Starmie does under 70% to 252HP Aegis. 252 Attack EVs, Life Orb and Adamant is a guarantee of OHKO on Shadow Sneak with SR down.

That sounds fairly reliable to me. Sounds like Aegis is the way to go for Stall teams, at least if MegaGar isn't banned. But still a good Starmie counter.

 

[Zerilan]

That sounds fairly reliable to me. Sounds like Aegis is the way to go for Stall teams, at least if MegaGar isn't banned. But still a good Starmie counter.

With crits being 1.5x now, even a Hydro Pump crit wouldn't be a sure OHKO. Assuming no rain of course.

 

[EtherDrive]

Are there any confirmed mons with grassy terrain?

 

[Lord Raiden]

You bring up good points, but stall teams shouldn't be mainstream.....they are shameful to use as they draw out matches in a very frustrating way.

Hahahaha!

Keep crying, kid.

Your tears taste delicious. OwO

If it is possible to do in a game without breaking the rules, and does not rely on an "unintended exploit", any strategy is perfectly okay.

Stall actually takes a lot, lot more work, intelligence, and strategy to use properly, in my opinion, than offensive teams. Offensive teams are usually boost > boost > spam STAB moves, while predicting the opponent's moves and switches (and sometimes other non-attacking moves are used to set up as well, like stealth rock).

With stall, you need to keep a much tighter lid on the opponent, because (especially against highly offensive teams) all it can take is one slip up for things to rapidly go downhill. Stall teams also require more planning.

Also, I love camping with close range weapons in FPS games. I love hearing people like you scream into the microphone, while I bury something sharp into your brain stem

 

[Mattman324]

What about the fact that nothing reliably spin blocks offensive starmie, still, while the only viable spinner for stall, forretress, is spinblocked by everything. At least in gen 5 we had sub toxic tentacruel in the rain, now there is nothing. This puts offense on so much better footing.

Mega Blastoise can do it!


EDIT (don't feed the troll guys)

Doubt it. If I really wanted a defensive spinner I'd probably just use tenta/forry due to the fact that they can toxic said switchin and proceed to stall out said spinblocker.

But neither of them defeat Aegislash 1 on 1, and Aegislash is pretty much a huge pain in the rear for Stall.

 

[Haruno]

But neither of them defeat Aegislash 1 on 1, and Aegislash is pretty much a huge pain in the rear for Stall.

I guess though tenta could fish for the scale burn which neuters aegislash completely while forry can lay hazards (set up for sd admittedly) but mehs only time can tell.

 

[haunter]

Alright guys, I'm starting to get sick of having to delete your posts in this thread, so kindly stop. GeneralMLD, stop making asinine posts dude. @everyone else, stop feeding him/posting insults. From now on, every deleted post will also get a nice infraction :)

 

[Lord Raiden]

But to kinda address your point, I think that aggressive teams require more planning then stall.

With stall, you pick only from a select few viable competitive Pokemon with their stall specific ability. Combine those with universal stall moves like substitute, protect, and status moves. Seems that the movesets and pokemon roster are much more streamlined....its more how you use them.

Now for aggressive teams you have to plan out a lot more in that you have a ton more options. Tank, special/physical wall, physical/special sweepers, etc. Way more competitive pokemon to fill the slots, each with their own unique teams.

I dunno, thats how I see it.

Well, if you're talking about Smogon only, then yeah.

Smogon, and all of the things that it is doing and has done, is a fantastic organization for the older Pokemon "fans" to take part in.

Thing is, it's also very insular. Once you get outside the testing and the simulators, online mode "in the wild" is different. Sometimes, this is annoying, but the majority of the time I see really creative teams that break the mold as far as tiers are concerned. The tiers are definitely great guidelines for "how it's gonna be", but in gen IV (the last time I really took Pokemon seriously) I made a pretty great sandstorm stall team, and I think half of it was UU or BL pokemon that were optimized to be tankier or "stallier". I won most of my matches, even when I rule out all of the little kids with "anime teams" and other weirdos. The most boring matches were against the offensive teams, because I could almost always predict what was going to happen, to the point that I predicted probably 60% of my losses (mostly against Metagross, if you care to know).

Also, "stall" doesn't necessarily mean that all you ever do is use stall moves. There are degrees of offensive and defensive traits, and applying them in different ways can yield different things. For example, "tank" pokemon are basically offensive pokemon with "just a pinch" of stall. My old sandstorm team consisted of about 10 interchangeable members, but it only had 3 sweepers, and the rest were essentially tanks who could utilize varying degrees of stall tactics.

When it comes to games like Pokemon (which is almost just a trading card game with a six-card deck), really great players know how to use what's popular (typical offensive teams), but they also know how to be creative and experiment with things in order to create new strategies that nobody else thought of trying.

 

[escarlata]

Small sized Gourgeist also seems like a good spinblocker on paper to consider as I wrote in the other thread. It has an unique typing and movepool that, allows it to single-handedly beat any spinner not called Liquid Ooze Tentacruel or Starmie, thanks to its unspinnable Leech Seed while its access to Fire Blast allows it to not become set-up bait for Ferrothorn, Forretress and Skarmory.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gourgeist.3489963/page-2#post-4892829

 

[Mattman324]

Small sized Gourgeist also seems like a good spinblocker on paper to consider as I wrote in the other thread. It has an unique typing and movepool that, allows it to single-handedly beat any spinner not called Liquid Ooze Tentacruel or Starmie, thanks to its unspinnable Leech Seed while its access to Fire Blast allows it to not become set-up bait for Ferrothorn, Forretress and Skarmory.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gourgeist.3489963/page-2#post-4892829

What does small size have that Super Big size doesn't? I thought the largest size had better defenses.

 

[escarlata]

What does small size have that Super Big size doesn't? I thought the largest size had better defenses.

It outspeeds specific threats so it is not forced out so easily. Also, it heals a greater % of health for easier subseeding
For example:

• If it nails Skarmory with Fire Blast on the switch, it can KO Skarmory the next turn, something that super sized one cannot do.
• Against Tentacruel, it can outspeed and get a sub up to scout for ice beams/sludge bombs and Toxics, and subseed it to death, while blocking rapid spin, while larger ones will fall to sludge bomb.
• If Heatran comes in on a sub, small sized ones can outspeed and subseed it to death while larger ones are forced to switch out.
• Burns bulky dd-gyara and sub dd-nite before they sub up or taunt
• Can get a sub up before Blissey and Jellicent can status you
• Outpaces and burns pursuit trappers and can seed them even with a 252/0 spread (Burnt Band Ttar only deals 59.2% - 70.7% to 252/0 Gourgeist-Small with Crunch (from there, it can just switch out because you can tell when it is banded), while large ones risk being OHKOed by Crunch because they can't burn Ttar before the Crunch.

 

[ChaosAkita]

I heard there was a change to Substiute? Or was I mistaken?

 

[PKMN1]

Pokemon with Infiltrator can also hit through it now too.