Pokémon Togekiss

Status
Not open for further replies.


Pokedex Number: #468
Type: Fairy/Flying
Base stats: 85/80/95/120/115/80
Abilities: Hustle and Serene Grace (Hidden: Super Luck)

Notable moves:
  • Air Slash
  • Aura Sphere
  • Baton Pass
  • Dazzling Gleam
  • Defog
  • Extrasensory
  • Fire Blast
  • Flamethtower
  • Grass Knot
  • Heal Bell
  • Light Screen
  • Nasty Plot
  • Psychic
  • Psyshock
  • Reflect
  • Shadow Ball
  • Tailwind
  • Thunder Wave
  • Trick
  • Wish

Analysis:
The bringer of peace and joy looks to have a chance once again in the OU metagame. Its new Fairy/Flying typing gives it great double-resistances to Fighting and Bug, single resistance to Dark, and (best of all) immunity to Dragon and Ground. That alone makes it a great check to Salamence, Garchomp, Dragonite and Haxorus, forcing them to carry Stone Edge or some other coverage move (and be walled by Skarmory and co...!) It has a good movepool, from special attacking options like Fire Blast and Aura Sphere, to supporting options like Heal Bell, Thunderwave and even Wish. Its boostable 120 Special Attack is nothing to laugh at, 85/95/115 defences makes it quite bulky, and it's still an annoying exploiter of Serene Grace hax.

Still, it still has the same problems it did in past gens: Stealth Rock weakness, vulnerability to status and mediocre 80 base speed. It's also more vulnerable than ever to Scizor because of its typing, and there are new threats such as Doublade, Aegislash and Mega Lucario. It also has got a case of the 4-slot move syndrome: Both of its STABs are excellent with Serene Grace, but it needs to drop one of these to run both Fire Blast and Aura Sphere (otherwise, one of Aegislash or Heatran would completely hard-stop it). Still, I predict that Togekiss will see a fair bit more use now, and perhaps be the one of the most used Fairy-type in OU.

Potential Movesets

Defensive
Nature: Bold / Calm
Ability: Serene Grace
Item: Leftovers
EVs:
248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe (Bold)
248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Spe (Calm)
- Thunder Wave / Nasty Plot
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam / Fire Blast / Aura Sphere / Baton Pass (et al.)
- Roost

One of Togekiss's old sets, which takes full advantage of its natural bulk and its infamous stall-breaking Air Slashes. Togekiss is now blessed with a new typing that improves its already great durability, letting it set up between Roosts in front of Fighting-types and fleeing Dragons. Paraflinch is as annoying as ever, though it's harder now that Electric-types are immune to paralysis — especially since Electric-types gave him such trouble from the beginning!

The third slot could be taken by a lot of options. Dazzling Gleam hits dragons hard and is Togekiss's best attack against Electric-types. Fire Blast is the best for coverage to handle Scizor, Genesect and others, though Aura Sphere can 2HKO Heatran and Assault Vest Tyranitar. Baton Pass can be used with Nasty Plot to pass boosts Heatran or a faster special sweeper.

After playing with Togekiss a lot, a Bold defensive spread has worked somewhat better than Timid. The EVs maximise physical bulk. You could also run Calm with special EVs instead. If you're using Nasty Plot, 52 EVs in Speed are useful for getting the jump on Rotom-W to flinchax it long enough for Dazzling Gleam to be in KO-range, or just Baton Pass to a counter-counter. Using Roost before Rotom-W uses Volt Switch helps too.

Offensive Nasty Plot
Nature: Timid
Ability: Serene Grace
Item: Life Orb / Leftovers / Pixie Plate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Fire Blast / Aura Sphere / Roost

A more offensive option for a Nasty Plot set. Even this Togekiss is surprisingly bulky, being able to survive a Garchomp's +2 LO Fire Fang even after Stealth Rock. Nasty Plot makes its SAtk truly frightening when it's successfully set up. This set really appreciates Stealth Rock and Sticky Web support.

You can also use this set with EVs similar to the Bulky Attacker set. Worth noting, that a max SpA Togekiss will OHKO Rotom-W after +2, which surprises a lot of people.

Bulky Attacker (courtesy of AccidentalGreed)
Nature: Modest
Ability: Serene Grace
Evs: 248 HP / 68 SpA / 192 Spe (EVs by Alexwolf)
Item: Leftovers / Life Orb
- Dazzling Gleam
- Air Slash / Aura Sphere
- Fire Blast / Aura Sphere
- Roost

A bulky all-out attacking set with recovery that works as a pivot. This one doesn't boost, but arguably one of the more effective sets, seeing as it's a bit too slow to sweep without paralysis support.

The 192 Spe outspeeds Jolly Tyranitar. You can also use 172 Spe with Timid to outspeed Jolly Breloom, though he's got the nerf stick quite hard this time. If outspeeding Breloom and Tyranitar aren't a concern and you want more power, you can use 248 HP / 208 SAtk / 52 Spe to outspeed Rotom-W. This is very useful, as Togekiss is a huge Rotom-W bait, and LO Dazzling Gleam is a clean 2HKO with these EVs.

Choice Scarf
Nature: Timid
Ability: Serene Grace
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Air Slash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Aura Sphere
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower / Trick

Togekiss could also go Scarf to fix its mediocre speed. With this set, Togekiss can revenge-kill weakened Dragons and make its Air Slash flinchax more annoying than ever :^) You could use Trick here, though it's probably less useful nowadays as every team is bound to have a Mega. (You can't take away megastones.)

Since this Togekiss will be switching in and out quite often, it's very vulnerable to Stealth Rock. Should you choose to use it, Rapid Spin or Defog support is a must.

Counters & Checks

Electric-types are still the best checks and counters. The Rotom-formes are a big problem for Togekiss, as they're immune to paralysis, usually outspeed it and immediately threaten it. Rotom-W is the most often seen check, though it is 2HKO'd by the bulky Life Orb set and the Nasty Plot set. Rotom-H completely hard-stops Togekiss, resisting both STABs as well as Fire Blast. Thundurus is incredibly threatening and can use your Thunderwave to get free turns.

Heatran, Jirachi, Aegislash and Tyranitar counter Togekiss if it lacks one of its coverage moves (and Heatran and T-tar can withstand even those with Assault Vest). Scizor, Lucario and Metagross have access to STAB Bullet Punch, but should watch out for Fire Blast and Aura Sphere (for Lucario).

Stealth Rock is still a thorn on Togekiss's side, especially now that he has the new big task of checking the most threatening dragons in OU, though with the Defog buff it's more difficult to set up than before.

Synergy

Togekiss really wants something to get rid of the Sneaky Pebbles. Losing a quarter of its health upon switch-in means it can't tank as well non-STAB neutral hits from Dragons, like Fire Blast from Salamence and Hydreigon, and secondary moves from Fighting-types like Breloom's Bullet Seed. To that end, Excadrill is a good teammate for its Rapid Spin. Excadrill and Togekiss have very good type synergy, and Excadrill handles many Togekiss checks, like Rotom-W, Thundurus, Tyranitar, even Aegislash marvelously. Heatran itself is a great teammate to Togekiss, as it checks Scizor, Aegislash, Jirachi and many other Steel-types. Alternatively, you can use the newly-buffed Defog to blow away hazards. Latias stands out as good user, as she can handle Rotom-W, Thundurus, and Heatran very well. Togekiss itself can also learn Defog, but using that on an already rock-weak mon is somewhat dicey.

The non-Scarf sets appreciate paralysis support to make up for the lack of speed. Hazard support helps too. Ferrothorn, Jirachi, and Deoxys-S can set up Stealth Rock and provide Thunderwave support at once. Alternatively, you could use Sticky Web from Galvantula (who can also induce paralysis with Compound-eyes Thunder) Bear in mind that Defog support can clash with entry hazards in general, though if you're only Stealth Rock, you just need a feel for when to use which.

Personal opinions

Overall, I think that Togekiss, along with Azumarill, is shaping up to be the most OU-viable fairy by far. Its great new typing is sure to give it the popularity it once had. Even with new potent threats to it like Aegislash and M-Lucario and the dreaded 4-slot move syndrome, it can hold its own in the OU meta, being bulky and powerful at once.
 
Last edited:
No more STAB hustle E-speed 0/10

On a more serious note, I'd consider baton pass on the defensive nasty plot set, not many things can baton pass nasty plot (especially since we can't get celebi atm), and one of the best counters for its defensive set, aegislash, won't handle a +2 heatran well.
 

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I think a bulky attacking set with max SpA, big HP investment, and some Speed EVs for a few defensive Pokemon would be Togekiss's best bet in OU. As a choice user it's not that good, as it is weak to SR, lacks U-turn / Trick / Pursuit / Memento / Healing Wish (moves that the best Choice Scarf Pokemon have in order to avoid being very easy to take advantage of), and is kinda slow (for a Scarf set). LO with Roost + Moonblast + Aura Shpere + Air Slash / Flamethrower gets unresisted neutral coverage and hits pretty hard, while also acting a good check to choiced Dragon-types, DD Dragonite and Salamence, Swords Dance Aegislash, Mega Mawile, and more.
 
Last edited:

Super Mario Bro

All we ever look for
As much as I'd love to be optimistic about Defensive Togekiss this gen...I don't see it countering much, unless it's outright immune to everything on that mon's moveset because SR places a huge handicap on its bulk. The best it'll do is force a few things, one of whom is Garchomp, into 4MSS mode. Offensive Togekiss' problem is that it's too slow to do much to anything but stall teams...and it hates the Aura Sphere nerf.
 
Last edited:

PK Gaming

Persona 5
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
If Togekiss becomes a staple, it's going to force most of the physical dragons to run Stone Edge. They've previously been coasting with Fire-type moves to deal with Steel-types, and the occasionally Earthquake to deal with Heatran, but they're going to have to start committing to the worst move in the game™, lest they risk getting completely walled. For instance, SD Garchomp has a dilemma; does it run Stone Edge or Fire Fang?

Special Dragons are going to have a rough time dealing Togekiss. Hydreigon's main set went from being impossible to counter to outright walled by Togekiss. Haha :(
 

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
If Togekiss becomes a staple, it's going to force most of the physical dragons to run Stone Edge. They've previously been coasting with Fire-type moves to deal with Steel-types, and the occasionally Earthquake to deal with Heatran, but they're going to have to start committing to the worst move in the game™, lest they risk getting completely walled. For instance, SD Garchomp has a dilemma; does it run Stone Edge or Fire Fang?

Special Dragons are going to have a rough time dealing Togekiss. Hydreigon's main set went from being impossible to counter to outright walled by Togekiss. Haha :(
Well PK, outside of Hydreigon, Lati@s and Kyurem-B won't have any problem with Togekiss or at least won't be walled. Offensive Latias and Latios can 2HKO with Psyshock after SR, while Kyurem-B OHKOes with either Fusion Bolt or Ice Beam.
 
Has it been confirmed that Togekiss has Moonblast? That would make it even better; the more base power ensures OHKO's on a lot of things, e.g. Dragonite with SR, and the special attack drops will make it harder for Heatran to counter it.

I hadn't actually thought of a boost-less offensive set (I'm too used to the old sets!), but it could work as a nice pivot. I'll add it to the OP.

As much as I'd love to be optimistic about Defensive Togekiss this gen...I don't see it countering much, unless it's outright immune to everything on that mon's moveset because SR places a huge handicap on its bulk. The best it'll do is force a few things, one of whom is Garchomp, into 4MSS mode. Offensive Togekiss' problem is that it's too slow to do much to anything but stall teams...and it hates the Aura Sphere nerf.
For what it's worth, Mixmence's LO Fire Blast and +2 Garchomp's LO Fire Fang can't 2HKO the defensive set even with rocks, and +1 Dragonite can only 2HKO with Extremespeed and rocks. I agree Stealth Rock does make it hard to counter common dragon sets, but just having immunity to half of a typical dragons moveset (STAB and Earthquake) I think makes it a great check at least.
 
Last edited:

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
So judging by what Alex said about an offensive set without Nasty Plot, I think it can come in a specific flavor or two

name: Bulky Attacker (1)
move 1: Moonblast
move 2: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
move 3: Aura Sphere / Air Slash
move 4: Roost
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
nature: Timid / Modest
ability: Serene Grace
evs: 248 HP / 56 SpA / 30 SpD / 176 Spe

name: Bulky Attacker (2)
move 1: Air Slash
move 2: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
move 3: Thunder Wave / Moonblast
move 4: Roost
item: Leftovers
nature: Modest / Timid
ability: Serene Grace
evs: ???

Basically, the first set is a pretty basic not-too-slow and bulky offensive set that can switch into a few attacks, Roost the damage off if possible, then hit back with good coverage and decent high-BP attacks. Mostly a pivot of sorts, but I like using Leftovers and 248 HP since it makes the most out of Togekiss's bulk. It also doesn't mind the low investment in Special Attack, since its special attack is already naturally high, and the coverage and BP make up for it somewhat. 176 Spe allows Togekiss to outrun Jolly Breloom at worst before it can scream "SPORE," and 28 SpD allows it to survive Mega Gengar's Sludge Bomb at full health (same can't be said for normal Life Orb Gengar).

The second set is somewhat tentative, but basically the concept is that it's a Paraflinch set that hits hard. Not sure where I should go with it, or if I should go with it at all, though in practice Togekiss has hundreds of opportunities to mess up its opponents and just Roost off damage.
I don't think that outspeeding Breloom will be that important with the big amount of nerfs it received. Don't get me wrong, it might be still a solid chooice, but surely not as prominent as in 5th gen (you could see it on basically every weatherless offense team), and it won't be that hard to check with something else really. Politoed, another Pokemon sitting at the 263 Speed tier, has lost a lot of its viability with the weather nerf too. Hitting 244 Speed ot outrun Jolly Tyranitar and most neutral base 100s will be enough i think, so an EV spread 248 HP / 40 SpA / 30 SpD / 192 Spe and a Modest nature will probably work best.

As for the second set, Moonblast and Air Slash should be the main attacking options. You need Air Slash to flinchhax obviously and you need Moonblast to hit the most common paralysis-immune Electric Pokemon in OU, Thundurus-T and Rotom-W, for decent damage. Moonblast also hits harder than Fire Blast the Ground-types that block Thunder Wave and even OHKOes Garchomp. While with this coverage you are walled by some Steel-types, it's not your primary objective to beat them anyway.
 
We know egg moves can be passed from both parents, we have hard evidence in other threads.
yeah, I thought so. well case closed then I guess. seems a bit silly for it to not have any access to moonblast but I'm not gonna complain much, his stupid aerial pirouette when using dazzling gleam is charming and it still packs quite a punch.

hopefully there'll be a proper move tutor in another gen VI game that could change this though.
 
Post detailing Sticky Web

Let's pretend you want to just outspeed base 130's:

394 * 2 / 3 = 262.6666666(rounds down, but we will pretend it's 263 for example sake).

So you need 264 speed, which makes sense because gen III players would know that's the magic DD number to outspeed everything outside of electrode / Ninjask / Deoxys forms(AKA outspeed base 130s in that gen).

80 * 2 = 160 + 99 = 259, so you would actually need a + nature to reach it.

264/ 1.1 = 240

80 * 2 = 160 + 39 = |199 - 240|= 41 * 4 = 164

So with max SP attack your spread would be:

Togekiss @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Serene Grace: Timid
164 Speed, 252[Sp. Attack/ HP], 92[HP/ Sp. Attack]
 

Chou Toshio

Over9000
is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I foresee Togekiss being extremely effective in this gen-- but I personally think Air Slash is going to be the favorite move. Since Fairy is also resisted by Steel, there's little to gain in foregoing that 60% Flinch-- Togekiss is going to check all the Dragons well regardless of whether it can hit them for super effective damage or not. Flying is just too good an attack type, and Serene Grace to gay to give up.

In fact, the only real problem I see with a former UU standard mono-attacking set of T-wave / NP / Air Slash / Roost is Tyranitar-- and now you've got the issue of running Aura Sphere or being a sitting duck, just waiting to be picked off. Well, with Aura Sphere's power drop you may be a sitting duck regardless, but at least it will let you do SOMETHING (as opposed to nothing).

Interestingly though, TTar could be heavily impacted by Togekiss. Formerly, trapper TTar would be hard-pressed to find room for Rock STAB in the movepool (you want want Crunch AND Pursuit, Superpower/EQ, and are still tempted to find room for Fire Blast and SR). Now, it can't easily check Togekiss without Stone Edge, but still wants to be a specialized check for Lati@s/Starmie. It spreads TTar even thinner
 

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I foresee Togekiss being extremely effective in this gen-- but I personally think Air Slash is going to be the favorite move. Since Fairy is also resisted by Steel, there's little to gain in foregoing that 60% Flinch-- Togekiss is going to check all the Dragons well regardless of whether it can hit them for super effective damage or not. Flying is just too good an attack type, and Serene Grace to gay to give up.

In fact, the only real problem I see with a former UU standard mono-attacking set of T-wave / NP / Air Slash / Roost is Tyranitar-- and now you've got the issue of running Aura Sphere or being a sitting duck, just waiting to be picked off. Well, with Aura Sphere's power drop you may be a sitting duck regardless, but at least it will let you do SOMETHING (as opposed to nothing).

Interestingly though, TTar could be heavily impacted by Togekiss. Formerly, trapper TTar would be hard-pressed to find room for Rock STAB in the movepool (you want want Crunch AND Pursuit, Superpower/EQ, and are still tempted to find room for Fire Blast and SR). Now, it can't easily check Togekiss without Stone Edge, but still wants to be a specialized check for Lati@s/Starmie. It spreads TTar even thinner
A mono attacking defensive Nasty Plot is shit with the new mechanics, or at least needs a ton of support to be worth it (in addition to spin support). Rotom-W, SpD Tyranitar, Thundurus(-T), Magnezone, and Excadrill all are immune to Thunder Wave and resist Air Slash, while being able to OHKO back (or cripple), serving as good counters. It was good in UU because things are hitting way softer in UU, and there were actually very few Pokemon able to outright counter this set, with SpD Zapdos and SpD Rhyperior being the most common ones.
 

Chou Toshio

Over9000
is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
A mono attacking defensive Nasty Plot is shit with the new mechanics, or at least needs a ton of support to be worth it (in addition to spin support). Rotom-W, SpD Tyranitar, Thundurus(-T), Magnezone, and Excadrill all are immune to Thunder Wave and resist Air Slash, while being able to OHKO back (or cripple), serving as good counters. It was good in UU because things are hitting way softer in UU, and there were actually very few Pokemon able to outright counter this set, with SpD Zapdos and SpD Rhyperior being the most common ones.
Of course there are always challenges to any set-- but especially when talking about a defensive support Pokemon, there will always be threats that can switch in on it with relative ease. How many Pokemon are there that can safely switch in on skarmory? On Polietoed? plenty-- that doesn't make them bad. Out of the Pokemon you mentioned, only Tyranitar can potentially trap Togekiss. While the others can be annoying with Volt Switch, they are all also all Pokemon with solid switch-ins/counters.

With its low Speed, Togekiss will never be an offensive powerhouse in OU, but with Fairy giving it new defensive utility, it can put that 125 SpA to use as a threatening tank. Thunder Wave and Heal Bell are its best support options, and the former makes it much more threatening in general. Not played as a sweeper, I think using Togekiss as a threatening tank with Thunder Wave and Air Slash will be an effective set. Roost is a requirement for obvious reasons, while the last slot could be Nasty Plot or Aura Sphere (though Aura Sphere's drop in power is pretty problematic as well).
 

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Of course there are always challenges to any set-- but especially when talking about a defensive support Pokemon, there will always be threats that can switch in on it with relative ease. How many Pokemon are there that can safely switch in on skarmory? On Polietoed? plenty-- that doesn't make them bad. Out of the Pokemon you mentioned, only Tyranitar can potentially trap Togekiss. While the others can be annoying with Volt Switch, they are all also all Pokemon with solid switch-ins/counters.

With its low Speed, Togekiss will never be an offensive powerhouse in OU, but with Fairy giving it new defensive utility, it can put that 125 SpA to use as a threatening tank. Thunder Wave and Heal Bell are its best support options, and the former makes it much more threatening in general. Not played as a sweeper, I think using Togekiss as a threatening tank with Thunder Wave and Air Slash will be an effective set. Roost is a requirement for obvious reasons, while the last slot could be Nasty Plot or Aura Sphere (though Aura Sphere's drop in power is pretty problematic as well).
All that i am saying is that Thunder Wave is not the great support move it used to be. And Skarmory may be easy to switch into but it offers a lot of utility on the team with Spikes and Whirlwind. I would prefer much more to use Heal Bell or a coverage move over it.
Hold on, since when is tyranitar immune to thunder wave?

but i agree that it should not TRY to flinchhax. I think thats just the cherry on top when trying to weaken slower pokemon.

Roost+ three attacks sound wonderful, either with life orb or leftovers.
Either that or a full on wall with respective EVs.
It's not immune to T-Wave but you can't get past it with Air Slash because it does pathetic damage (assuming Ttar has Leftovers).
 
One thing I've noticed about togekiss is the fact that so many pokemon only have one move to threaten it with. Despite five weaknesses I think this fact makes Kiss much more of a bitch to take down. Take CB Scizor for example, The only move it commonly carries that won't bounce off Kiss completely is bullet punch, which is such an easy move to switch into for 70% of OU. I think Togekiss will be an amazing pivot in the tier. It's able to spread paralysis, Cleric, Tank, and potentially sweep slower teams with a nasty plot set. Plus Gastrodon is like Kiss's best friend ever
 

Shroomisaur

Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.
Togekiss is looking like a real contender this generation, with a newly improved typing and bulky offense on the rise. It has decent defenses with the ability to provide cleric support or be a great NP booster.

However I have a huge issue with all of the sets in the OP because Air Slash isn't listed as the primary attack. Dazzling Gleam is new and all, but you can get past so many things with pure Serene Grace Flinchax, it's not even funny. In my mind there's no reason to ever run Togekiss without it.

Togekiss is one of those Pokemon that will absolutely LOVE Sticky Web support, by the way. Making everything vulnerable to getting Air Slash flinched to death sounds amazing!
 

Super Mario Bro

All we ever look for
Now that Defog was buffed, I think Togekiss is worth revisiting. It indeed seems like she could be viable now, but my issue is 4MSS; she really wants to be able to fit in all of Thunder Wave, Air Slash, Defog, Roost, Dazzling Gleam, and Aura Sphere all on the same set, but can't. A big challenge this gen will be to figure out which 4 of those moves will be worth preserving (and, de facto, it's really 2 because Roost and Air Slash will be staples on practically every set). On the other side of the coin, you could also say that Togekiss' sheer versatility will make 4MSS less of a problem, and I definitely find truth in that point of view. We will see, but I am a smidgen more optimistic about her prospects than I was before.
 
I just got myself a bold togekiss with perfect hp, defense, special attack, and outstanding potential. I went with full hp EV's, 68 SpD, and the rest into defense. This thing destroys. I don't know if you need to go full offensive with this guy, as you can use him to stall / deal with any threats. The only thing that gave me trouble in online battles was a random focus sash'd shell smashing cloyster... that ice spear tore through togekiss after 1 shell smash.
 

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Now that Defog was buffed, I think Togekiss is worth revisiting. It indeed seems like she could be viable now, but my issue is 4MSS; she really wants to be able to fit in all of Thunder Wave, Air Slash, Defog, Roost, Dazzling Gleam, and Aura Sphere all on the same set, but can't. A big challenge this gen will be to figure out which 4 of those moves will be worth preserving (and, de facto, it's really 2 because Roost and Air Slash will be staples on practically every set). On the other side of the coin, you could also say that Togekiss' sheer versatility will make 4MSS less of a problem, and I definitely find truth in that point of view. We will see, but I am a smidgen more optimistic about her prospects than I was before.
Why would Thunder Wave still be a staple? It's still an ok move but nothing spectacular. Togekiss doesn't need to flinch-hax stuff when it can use deadly 3 attacks + Roost sets to be much harder to switch into (Fairy + Fighting + Fire, hell even Fairy + Ghost would cut it so you can use both Roost and Defog), and it doesn't need to use Thunder Wave to support the team when it has Defog. There are a ton of Pokemon that are either immune or don't give a shit about Thunder Wave in OU, so it's just a nice secondary option for Togekiss.
 

Super Mario Bro

All we ever look for
Why would Thunder Wave still be a staple? It's still an ok move but nothing spectacular. Togekiss doesn't need to flinch-hax stuff when it can use deadly 3 attacks + Roost sets to be much harder to switch into (Fairy + Fighting + Fire, hell even Fairy + Ghost would cut it so you can use both Roost and Defog), and it doesn't need to use Thunder Wave to support the team when it has Defog. There are a ton of Pokemon that are either immune or don't give a shit about Thunder Wave in OU, so it's just a nice secondary option for Togekiss.
I said that Roost and Air Slash would be staples. Read my post more carefully. :P
 

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I said that Roost and Air Slash would be staples. Read my post more carefully. :P
Oh yeah, seems i misread... Still, why would Air Slash be a staple on offensive sets, especially when offering such redundant coverage with Fairy? I am not saying it would be replaced completely, but Fairy STAB + Fire Blast + Aura Shpere gets better super effective coverage, assuming Dragon-types will still be relevant to OU. For example, without Fairy STAB offensive Togekiss is walled by Goodra and Latias, while being unable to OHKO back many of the Dragon-types it checks, such as DD Dragonite and DD Salamence.
 

Super Mario Bro

All we ever look for
Oh yeah, seems i misread... Still, why would Air Slash be a staple on offensive sets, especially when offering such redundant coverage with Fairy? I am not saying it would be replaced completely, but Fairy STAB + Fire Blast + Aura Shpere gets better super effective coverage, assuming Dragon-types will still be relevant to OU. For example, without Fairy STAB offensive Togekiss is walled by Goodra and Latias, while being unable to OHKO back many of the Dragon-types it checks, such as DD Dragonite and DD Salamence.
Good points, but I still think Air Slash will be used on most defensive sets (particularly ones that use Thunder Wave) as well as Choice sets. I haven't really thought about all-out attacking and Nasty Plot sets yet, but I figure that being able to flinch-hax things to death will be a great option, especially if the meta turns out to be slower and more defensive than Gen V.
 
I've been successfully using ScarfKiss w/Air Slash/Aura Sphere/FlameThrower/Trick during the past gen, both in UU and OU. It acted as a great surprise lead, being able to deal a lot of damage and abuse hax, thus being able to cripple walls thanks to Trick without losing it's niche, as its Speed is still decent without the Scarf. It has great bulk even uninvested and the added bonus of a new usable STAB and an immunity to Dragons make it even better.
Also, unlike the set listed in the OP, I'd rather run a Modest Nature w/252 Sp.Attack & 252 Speed EVs.

I believe that cores consisting of Dragon/Steel/Fairy/Fire Pokés will become very popular as they cover each other weaknesses quite well, so I guess good partners for Togekiss would be Garchomp & Heatran, among others.

Let's hope it gets new toys to play with via Egg Moves! (MoonBlast, I'm looking at you ¬¬)
 
Cleaned

As Togekiss stands right now, there isn't too much to discuss other than figuring out how to optimize EVs, movesets, and what we can partner it with and what to watch out from. Pretty much par for the course of any Pokemon discussion, but once Defog is available, I think we obviously have to consider that. I'd like this discussion to move into the direction of "as one of the best dragon counters in the game, what can we partner it with to benefit from Togekiss" and begin focusing on how exactly we make those EV spreads the best possible.

I definitely think the idea of Air Slash + Sticky Web is appealing, but let's think about which Pokemon we're going to begin using to set up Sticky Web if we go that route and the problems Togekiss might fight having to partner with it, or the scenarios where it's not actually going to help.

For those of who you listed partners like Gastrodon, Garchomp, etc begin exploring why as well. Talk about why those mons would cover the vital weaknesses of Togekiss and vice versa, what are they doing to allow you to win. I definitely think we need to figure out Speed or Bulk though on Togekiss, honestly I prefer the bulk, especially where the Speed now falters due to Megas and just the type of teams we'll now be playing against.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top