General Discussion

[iss]

Gen VI is upon us, and with it we have an influx of new Pokemon. Stats in research threads should be accurate.

Rules for discussion:

• Do not assume anything is banned aside from Scyther, SonicBoom, Dragon Rage, and Moody.
• Do not discuss potential bans. Posts doing so will be edited or deleted.
• Stats from PS! are potentially inaccurate. TIBot on IRC appears to be semi-updated.

 

[Chieliee]

Pumpkaboo looks like the most promising gen 6 lc mon to me

grass/ghost is a pretty phenomenal typing, especially when it has ~60 hp, ~75 def, ~50 spdef. It can also hit quite hard with an attack stat of ~70.

Now i'm just hoping it gets recover.....

also knock off boost yay/fuck (for those who don't know, it's now 65 base power, boosted even further if the opponent has an item)

 

[Pen Ink]

i have a feeling that knock off is going to make or break the meta

pumpkaboo and the water/poison pokemon look the most promising, both good typing and have reasonable stats.

 

[kingmidas]

Honedge even with the steel nerf still seems promising, run a set with substitute sword dance and hopefully a strong steel stab and shadow sneak. Still would be able to handle threats such as scyther. But yeah gotta agree with Pen and Chieliee with there opinions

 

[Electrolyte]

I first want to say that I doubt Fairy-types will make an impact on our new metagame. Out of all of them, Spritzee is the only one that stands out as of now, and it's more of a semi mixed bulky Pokemon that lacks an adequate enough movepool to make a lasting effect on the meta. This, as well as the fact that Dragon-types are generally uncommon in LC and do not require that much effort to handle, means that Fairy-type Pokemon might not be that useful. As we discussed on irc, Snubbull is probably going to be the only and most viable Fairy-type, as it will be a useful counter to DD Tyrunt because of its immunity to Dragon and Intimidate. Other than Snubbull, Fairy-types will probably not have much of an effect.

Speaking of Tyrunt, I am very happy about the influx of powerful, viable new Rock-types to viably fuck with Murkrow yet still be checkable by Fighting-types. Tyrunt is probably going to have a huge impact on the current metagame, with a massive Attack stat and great bulk / speed. Plus, it gets the awesome Dragon Dance, which will turn it into a monster. It is compatible with powerful moves such as Head Smash, Earthquake, Crunch, and the Elemental Fangs, the latter two powered to 100+ BP because of Tryunt's ability, Powerful Jaw. Rock / Dragon also gives it valuable resistances, whilst still giving it a crippling weakness to Ice, Fighting, and Ground, three very common LC attack types, potentially preventing Tyrunt from being broken. Binacle, with EdgeQuake and Shell Smash, will also be a powerful threat.

A few defensive Pokemon seem fairly viable as well. Honedge and Pumpkaboo both have unique typings and great defensive stats, and though they don't stand out in power or movepool they will probably see adequate usage.

I'm excited how all of these things will mix in with the release of previously banned Pokemon such as Gligar. I have high hopes because it seems that Gen 6 has brought some Pokemon that may balance the overcentralization that has been a huge problem for LC in the past. Theoretically, Tyrunt seems to be able to check Murkrow, Yanma, Vulpix, and maybe Scyther too, yet is not broken because it is run over by Fighting-types. The nerf of weather will make Vulpix / Tangela much less frightening, and in turn they might help handle Sneasel and the banned Bug-types. Honedge also seems as if it'll be a great counter to Scyther because of its amazing bulk and great resistances. The buff to Knock Off could potentially be the bane of Gligar's defensive set, not making it weak but hopefully making it unbroken (though we will still have Acrobatics to worry about.) These things still have to be tested and confirmed out in the field but I have a feeling we're going to have a good time messing with them.

Here's to a fun and exciting Gen VI!

 

[Axisotaku]

I agree with Tyrunt being a very strong pick with his high base stats and very offencive typing. Honedge might seem apealing for some but with the change to steel not resisting dark and ghost anymore and the part where knock off is boosted to 65 base power if it gets rid of an item (WHAT!?!?!?), I don't think he will shine as much as people hope. Defencive Pokes in general will realy have trouble with that change (it might be a good thing though). I was also looking at Espurr, his base stats are quite alright and I was looking at one of his ability: Infiltrator: The protections and stat boosts caused by the moves Substitute, Reflect, Light Screen and Safeguard by the opponent are ignored. That is quite an interesting change that could possibly counter stuff like sub krow or sub krow or whoever uses sub other than krow... like abra. I also want to add to the pool Inkay with his Contrary ability and a very unique dark/psychic typing.

 

[Brambane]

Does Inkay get Superpower or does only Malamar get it?? If it does, it could be a potentially dangerous Pokemon.

 

[Electrolyte]

Yes, Inkay does get Superpower. People over in the OU forum were also talking about how cool it would be to counter Sticky Web, since Contrary turns the -1 Spe to a permanent, nonchoice +1 Spe boost. Unfortunately, Inkay is extremely susceptible to U-Turn, which will be an increasingly popular strategy should we let back some old banned Pokemon. Plus, it's not very powerful; ~55 Base Attack really does not stand out at all even if it boosts with Superpower. Still, it does have potential, so we'll have to see how things turn out.

Speaking of Sticky Web, what do you guys think about it? I feel as if it is definitely going to be a very centralizing move. Teams that don't run counters to Sticky Web will have an extreme disadvantage over teams that do have it, and the only way in LC to counter Sticky Web is to a. counteract it with Sticky Web of your own or b. use a spinner. A. is a very troubling solution since Sticky Web has such terrible distribution and teams will definitely have a hard time fitting the less viable bug-type Webbers onto their teams. Spinning is an ok way to counter Sticky Web but spinning is becoming harder and harder with the influx of new, solid Ghost-types such as Pumpkaboo or Honedge. The only thing spinners got for their side is Bergmite, which is only semi viable and weak to the plethora of Fighting-types and recently released Sun in the tier. I am slightly concerned about how Sticky Web will affect teambuilding in LC, and am crossing my fingers and hoping for the best :/

 

[Melon]

I personally don't like Sticky Web. At all. I am slightly biased, because my favorite team to play is Volt-Turn, and Sticky Web is kind of a slap in the face to it, but it can be spun away by Rapid Spin, so at least there is that. I think Sticky Web will have a decent impact on the Gen 6 meta game, because it seems as if it is going to be a real pain to a lot of teams, and could cause some centralization in the tier, and we all know how that turns out. I'm not sure of any Pokemon that learn it yet, but I'm going to assume it is going to be extremely average Bug types that won't to a lot except for set up the Web, and that could be a waist of a team slot. We will probably have to wait to see what gets Sticky Web to be able to get an idea of it's impact.

EDIT: Just had an idea a different thread about Sticky Web... If Sticky Web is a big move, what about Defiant Pokemon, like Pawniard? That could be interesting to goof around with...

 

[Axisotaku]

Sticky Web sounds interesting, and I agree that with proper ghost type support it will be hard to get rid of it. But then again ghost types are in for some hell with the change on knock off. Anorith seems to be a prime choice now with a set of like Knock off, Rapid Spin and 2 of these X-Scisors/Stone edge/Stealth Rock to go along with his very high 95 atk and good 75 speed.

 

[Chieliee]

knock off is boosted to 65 base power if it gets rid of an item

knock off is always 65, and gets a ×1.5 boost if the opponent has an item (97.5)

ya so it's even better than you think

 

[JacobNinja]

With the hidden power/special moves nerf and increased type diversity, I expect tyrunt to become vital for type coverage.

Tyrunt@Life Orb
Adamant 252 ATK/SPE
Powerfull Jaw
Rock Polish
Thunder Fang
Ice Fang
STabfiller

will expand later

 

[Darkamber8828]

back for gen 6 maybe, if anyone still remembers me :>

Fletchling's +1 priority on flying moves is really interesting. Even with its god-awful stats, It can force out any Fighting, Grass, or Bug types with the threat of a priority Flying Gem Acrobatics, set up a Swords Dance, and kinda sweep with Acrobatics/Return and either Steel Wing for Rock or Overheat / Flame Charge for Steel. 28 Atk Priority STAB Acrobatics sounds pretty great, and it isn't that slow outside of it, either.

Pancham has some decent physical bulk and attack, as well as Scrappy, but its movepool is garbage. Maybe some kind of tanky physical attacker, just for Scrappy and Circle Throw? A Bulk Up set?

Spritzee is a fairy with some decent mixed defenses and 60 base SpA isn't unusable. Its defensive movepool is shit though, basically screens, toxic, and substitute. Bulky CM could work, it gets unlimited coverage with Moonblast / Tbolt and you could stick Substitute or Energy Ball or Hidden Power or something into the last slot maybe?

Helioptile's SpA and speed are usable too. Dry Skin and Solar Power are both really interesting abilities for an Electric pokemon. Doesn't seem to get any special Normal attack moves, only Surf / Tbolt / Volt Switch / Hidden Power basically.


This gen doesn't have many good LC pokemon :s

 

[ryan]

I've been playing around with some friends using XY only LC teams, and there were some standouts there. The top standout is BUNNELBY. With Huge Power and a Jolly nature, it hits 26 Attack unboosted, and it can run anything from Life Orb to Eviolite to Choice Scarf. I personally used a Choice Scarf set with Return / Earthquake / U-turn / filler, which was usually Quick Attack for a last ditch revenge kill, though it could run Thief to hit Ghost-types. With Thief's boosted Base Power, it actually hits fairly hard against the things it needs to hit. I personally preferred Quick Attack anyways; if the opponent had a Ghost-type, I just U-turned anyways. Bunnelby definitely has a lot of potential in XY LC, but it will definitely struggle more with all the LC Pokemon legal rather than just XY mons. Misdreavus outspeeds non-Scarf variants and can burn it with the more-accurate-than-ever Will-O-Wisp, and it walls sets without Thief. Misdreavus can also outspeed Scarf variants with its own Choice Scarf set, making it easier to revenge kill.

Another cool Bunnelby set I was thinking about was SubSalac. This set would have to give up U-turn, which is a bummer, but in turn can sweep opposing teams more easily. Haven't tried this set out, however, so it's purely theorymon.

Skrelp also made for a really good special tank that can take hits pretty well and dish them out just the same. I was running Sludge Bomb / Surf / Toxic Spikes / Dragon Pulse, though if it gets Ice Beam, it should definitely run that instead. Having a Toxic Spikes setter that can hold its own offensively is really neat, and Water/Poison is really cool offensive and defensive typing.

 

[Darkamber8828]

I think Sticky Web will have a decent impact on the Gen 6 meta game, because it seems as if it is going to be a real pain to a lot of teams, and could cause some centralization in the tier, and we all know how that turns out. I'm not sure of any Pokemon that learn it yet, but I'm going to assume it is going to be extremely average Bug types that won't to a lot except for set up the Web, and that could be a waist of a team slot. We will probably have to wait to see what gets Sticky Web to be able to get an idea of it's impact.

According to a Smogon thread, Galvantula, Ariados, Shuckle, and Smeargle are known to have it so far.

Spinarak is kinda garbage, but Joltik is a fairly strong pokemon. Sticky Web and four of Tbolt, Volt Switch, Bug Buzz, and Energy Ball sounds pretty good.

 

[leingodf8]

Shame fairies got such meager pickings... half the ones from old gens are babies sadly (oh clefairy, the things you could have done if cleffa werent here now). Anyways, out of the list, 3 stand out to me. Snubbull is the obvious one, beats axew, meinfoo, tyrunt, and scraggy to name a few, and seems like it could be a big contender. After that, Swirlix seems like the best from the new region. Only slightly less bulky than spritzee, reaches a decent 14 speed with a neutral nature, and gets much better coverage than its other specially based fairy brethren (namely, flamethrower and to a lesser extent surf). Plus an acutally somewhat relevant ability in unburden. Finally Cottonee could be interesting, since it was just confirmed to get its new typing as well, though thats more of a defensive boost rather than adding to coverage of any kind.

Aside from that Binacle seems interesting if anything. Shell smash on top of a suprisingly powerful movepool can't be completely ignored at least (typing does hurt though). I also wonder whether weather abilities nerf will affect much in this tier. I doubt snover will mind too much, but vulpix and hippopotas seem like they'd be pretty badly hurt. A lot of interesting things really, looking forward to it all

EDIT: As for this talk of sticky web, its also been confirmed recently that defog gets rid of all entry hazards. If it does become format defining, pokemon like drifloon or vullaby might start running defog as a more reliable rapid spin (albeit removing your own hazards as well)

 

[Darkamber8828]

Oh. Surskit gets Sticky Web too. Same speed as Joltik (17) with similar SpA. Surskit has generally weaker base stats than Joltik outside of it though, and it doesn't have U-turn or Volt Switch, but it has way different coverage and way better resists with its Water typing. Sticky Web / Hydro Pump / Signal Beam / Giga Drain sounds good.

 

[Pen Ink]

I didn't go too in depth in my first post so here goes!

liengodf8 just brought this to my attention, but Fairy-typing on Cottonee is really cool in my opinion. Cottonee now checks a lot of offensive threats, including Mienfoo, Timburr, Scraggy, and Carvanha. The Grass-typing is kind of bad now because it can't check things like Murkrow and Houndour better, but Prankster + Fairy-typing could really make Cottonee viable as a big team supporter. SubSeed is shit in my opinion but Cottonee also gets Taunt, Encore, Stun Spore, Substitute, Knock Off, Charm, and Tickle. I might sound like I'm hyping this thing up to be the next S Rank mon, which I'm not trying to do nor do I think it will be S-rank, but Cottonee with Fairy-typing is a cool thing to think about.

/

I know these guys aren't related in terms of evolutions but they have the same typing. Phantump is a lot more offensive and has Natural Cure, which is interesting so you can switch it in on stuff like Foongus and Shroomish and laugh in their face. Phantom Force is a nice move once in awhile. Pumpkaboo has great defensive typing and a huge movepool, so it can actually run a lot of different sets and get some cool coverage. The problem with these guys is they don't have any reliable recovery (according to Serebii), so that kind of brings their usability down when compared to things like Foongus and Misdreavus.

Skiddo looks mediocre to Foongus and Shroomish, but it has four cool things (among other things) they don't; Sap Sipper, Milk Drink, Bulk Up, and Horn Leech. Sap Sipper is nifty and lets Skiddo check other Grass types. Milk Drink + Bulk Up + Horn Leech is fantastic in my opinion and although Grass is a mediocre offensive typing most of the time but Skiddo can probably pull it off because of Horn Leech's utility and the other offensive moves it gets (Wild Charge, Bulldoze, Brick Break, Payback, Rock Slide). Horn Leech and Milk Drink on the same set could be redundant but Skiddo also gets Leaf Blade.

Honedge has a really nice typing and double boosting in Automize and Swords Dance. It sucks that No Guard isn't really useful to Honedge but it actually has a pretty decent offensive movepool and Shadow Sneak.

Binacle is going to wreck. Tough Claws + Shell Smash + an amazing offensive movepool is going to make Binacle so good. The only thing it doesn't have going for it is being revenged by priority and Razor Shell with that 95% accuracy.

Spritzee will probably become a pretty good Fighting-check (Scraggy, Mienfoo, and Timburr) because it actually has pretty good defenses and Draining Kiss / Moonblast. I could totally see a CM Set also just because it can set up on a lot of things, specifically Timburr and Scraggy.

I'll probably edit more, I'm tired and I don't even have XY nor have I done much research on the new stuff besides this so I should have more to say later on.

 

[Delver]

No ones mentioned pancham, and as a lover of bears I wanted to talk about it a bit: (all my info on it is from http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-xy/674.shtml)

unfortunately i see very little reasons to use it over scraggy. With an Eviolite its a pretty bulky, but fighting dark is still weak to fighting and flying (which as of gen 5 were the two scariest types to be weak to because of the dominance of fighters and murkrow). It does have a base ~base 80 attack stat, and access to scrappy and Iron fist. It gets mold breaker too, but the only thing it really hits with mold breaker are sturdy mons. Iron fist boosts STAB Hammer arm, and scrappy makes it so ghosts can't just switch in on predicted fighting moves.

Its move pool is missing a lot of stuff to really make it wonderful imo; specifically a decent boosting move. It gets Swords Dance, which boosts its attack stat to absuuurd levels but its too slow to abuse it; and the fact that it doesnt get drain punch basically prevents it from being able to do much with it. It also misses out on a lot of really good dark moves; with the only one it really gets is crunch. It doesn't get sucker punch or knock off, which i think are currently competing for "best dark move" (personally knock off wins cause of teh sheer utility its always had and now with a damage boost, whaaa). I know not everything is set in stone yet, and if its ever found out you can breed drain punch onto it, I think pancham has a strong niche as a midgame sweeper. Just being able to set up one dance with a large defensive investment and then tank hits and gain it back with Scrappy Drain punches would be hilariously good as a wall breaker on more offensive teams; but now we're diving into theorymonning so I'll stop.

I mostly agree with everyone else's statements; so just to add to it; I'm super excited about the Infiltrator change, as it makes things with it have a niche as a revenge killer for sub sets. I was looking at noibat, but i feel like it'll lack the base stats to really be impressive; same with zubat. Espurr seems like it could be good, but only if murkrow ends up being less popular, as I dont think it has an answer to sucker punch.

as far as the fairy typing goes, I think it'll be more useful as a coverage move (like moonblast) than as a defensive type. Little cup's dragons have always been fairly "underused" beause of the nature of how Gamefreak sets up the pseudos (which is to say they're a pain in the dick at low levels but the final evos are super strong. See gibel, beldem, etc). as such the Major draw of the fairy type (being immunity to ragon) is *a LOT* less impressive than it is in say, OU. However, fighting is EVERYWHERE in LC, and fairy hits it Super effectively, and ususally on the special side (which on average is the weaker defense of fighters). It also hits dark types such as Murkrow; scraggy; houndour; sneasle if he's not banned etc.


I apolgoize my post is so vague, but I tried to avoid most of everything for the game so i could experience it and i only recently beat it so now I'm delving (OH GOSH) into everything to try and figure out what to do with my life in LC this generation. As such I dont have a lot of data; and honestly I've found that theorymonning is only good for theory and we wont know too much until we sit down with the teir and really start playing it.

 

[leingodf8]

No ones mentioned pancham, and as a lover of bears I wanted to talk about it a bit: (all my info on it is from http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-xy/674.shtml)

unfortunately i see very little reasons to use it over scraggy. With an Eviolite its a pretty bulky, but fighting dark is still weak to fighting and flying (which as of gen 5 were the two scariest types to be weak to because of the dominance of fighters and murkrow). It does have a base ~base 80 attack stat, and access to scrappy and Iron fist. It gets mold breaker too, but the only thing it really hits with mold breaker are sturdy mons. Iron fist boosts STAB Hammer arm, and scrappy makes it so ghosts can't just switch in on predicted fighting moves.

Its move pool is missing a lot of stuff to really make it wonderful imo; specifically a decent boosting move. It gets Swords Dance, which boosts its attack stat to absuuurd levels but its too slow to abuse it; and the fact that it doesnt get drain punch basically prevents it from being able to do much with it. It also misses out on a lot of really good dark moves; with the only one it really gets is crunch. It doesn't get sucker punch or knock off, which i think are currently competing for "best dark move" (personally knock off wins cause of teh sheer utility its always had and now with a damage boost, whaaa). I know not everything is set in stone yet, and if its ever found out you can breed drain punch onto it, I think pancham has a strong niche as a midgame sweeper. Just being able to set up one dance with a large defensive investment and then tank hits and gain it back with Scrappy Drain punches would be hilariously good as a wall breaker on more offensive teams; but now we're diving into theorymonning so I'll stop.

Just wanted to point out that pancham is pure fighting, not dark/fighting, so its more comperable to timburr and the like. As far as that comparison goes, pancham gets swords dance and parting shot, while timburr gets mach punch and drain punch. Stat wise they're almost identical (timburr has 1 more hp, pancham has 1 more max Spe and 1 more SpD). It has some cool roles it could play, but I feel like theres a different fighting type for each that does it better.

 

[Delver]

Just wanted to point out that pancham is pure fighting, not dark/fighting, so its more comperable to timburr and the like. As far as that comparison goes, pancham gets swords dance and parting shot, while timburr gets mach punch and drain punch. Stat wise they're almost identical (timburr has 1 more hp, pancham has 1 more max Spe and 1 more SpD). It has some cool roles it could play, but I feel like theres a different fighting type for each that does it better.

Lel I actually forgot it doesnt get its dark typing till it evolves; sorry about that. I think i agree with your assessment; I feel like if it gets a niche it will involve parting shot. Sort of like a wall breaker that "baton passes" to its sweeper

 

[GoldenSandslash15]

Question.

With Pokémon Bank now checking for legality before the Pokémon are transferred from Gen 5 to Gen 6, presumably it will not allow Pomeg Glitch Pokémon to be transferred.

If this is the case, would the Pomeg Glitch no longer be legal?

 

[Celestavian]

If that is the case, Porygon and Staryu are going to fall hard. Porygon loses Recover and Tri Attack, while Staryu must now forgo Hydro Pump, Recover, and Rapid Spin. This completely destroys their niches, as without Recover Porygon has no way to heal itself and no one would use Staryu without Rapid Spin. Those are the two Pomeg mons that jump out at me, but I'm not sure if there's more.

 

[Gerard]

There's a lot of stuff I'm interested, other than the new mons would be how the Hidden Power nerf will affect LC since so many things relied on it for coverage, it's gonna be interesting to see murkrow no longer being able to kill stuff with Hp Grass or Missy losing some power (though since steel no longer resists ghost this is less of a concern to her)

Weather Nerf and Fairy types are both HUGE changes to LC, which last gen saw pokes such as Dribull, Murkrow, Mienfoo and Scraggy dominating the tier, I'm particularly interested in Snubbul myself since with Eviolite it hard counters every Scarggy set and it can check Murkrow and Mienfoo thanks to intimidate and ressistance to Dark And Fighting attacks, along with providing Heal Beal, Thunder Wave & Wish support.
(I really wish Dedenne would have an evo though, it would have been an amazing Murkrow counter but I guess Tyrunt should be good enough for that).

Bunnelby and Huge power are amazing indeed but I think it could run Cheek Pouch just as well, that ability seems really good in conjunction with Oran Berry, though I doubt it will be nowhere as good as the first, it would be interesting to see other mons with this ability. (why Dedenne :()

I'm more exited about the mons returning to the tier, Carvanha might find it harder to sweep thanks to the new fairies and Helioptil, Gligar didn't get many more checks but Bergmite could works against him, Vulpix returning, that's gonna be interesting, looking forward to try RestTalk Chinchou with the new sleep mechanics, Tangela/Slowpoke/Mienfoo core sounds like a fun thing to try too, Acrobatics will be fun if everything starts using Knock Off... lost of stuff to try, looking forward to this :3

 

[Brammi]

Knock is the most important difference in my mind. I can see it being a very useful move one everything that gets it. I already run a dedicated knock off team because of the utility in the metagame and the power boost just makes it all the more viable. I'm thinking there might be a rise in Oran Berries as a result to get the most of an item before it goes away.