Other Evasion

[Pata Hikari]

The point here is not if accuracy is good or gimmick. The problem is that adding more luck in a skill game is bad design. And as we can easlily deal with evasion without changing the game mechanics, why are you willing to put more randomness? Whenever that trainer with pidgey start using sand-attack, I go mad. In last generation I did not use monsters like terrakion because he depended on stone miss. Whenever I can I use surf and flamethrow because I hate missing. So I do not want to see people using minimize on my face, no matter if I can handle it or not. It's gust something I hate.

It's part of the game. It's not even broken, it's just as you said, annoying. It's bad. You're focusing your perspective, as you can get screwed over by a lucky miss. Well think about it from the other side.

Why would I want to waste my time with a set up move that relies on the opponent getting unlucky? It may win me a match or two, but in the long run I'm going to just lose. Why would I set up evasion to hope the opponent misses next turn when I can use Substitute to guarantee safety? Why would I bother with Double Team when I have Swords Dance?

 

[Mattman324]

I don't know about evasion at base, but I'd be all for getting Sand Veil and Snow Cloak back out of the Evasion Clause bloc.

 

[Aldrein]

It's part of the game. It's not even broken, it's just as you said, annoying. It's bad. You're focusing your perspective, as you can get screwed over by a lucky miss. Well think about it from the other side.

Why would I want to waste my time with a set up move that relies on the opponent getting unlucky? It may win me a match or two, but in the long run I'm going to just lose. Why would I set up evasion to hope the opponent misses next turn when I can use Substitute to guarantee safety? Why would I bother with Double Team when I have Swords Dance?

So why fight to have it back if you are not going to use it anyway?

 

[Karxrida]

^ Let's not throw out made up numbers as facts. And even if this was true, you're talking about pre-gen 6 evasion. Now that it's been nerfed to hell and back there is a good chance it may be considered a just another stupid gimmick. Either way once the gen 6 metagame officially starts we'll be able to tell whether it's the case or not.

Pretty sure that most people aren't complaining about the lack of Evasion boosting moves as a whole. Also, just because some other moves got slightly better doesn't mean Evasion has been nerfed. The majority of players consider it the single most broken mechanic in the entire franchise, there's no arguing that.

 

[nikovan]

The only Evasion boosts I want back in the game are those given by the weather abilities, seeing as they give some Pokemon certain niches, particularly Ice types. Now that weather is nerfed it would make sense to bring those abilities back.

As for all those Evasion-countering attacks people are saying make Evasion fair play...

Come on. How many teams run Aura Sphere? If you're not phazing, you don't have to run Whirlwind or Roar. Adding Evasion just means that you have to have a Pokemon carry a move you wouldn't use before just because you don't want to be Evasion-haxxed to death.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Evasion moves are "uncompetitive" because they're bad.

No, that's not why they're uncompetitive, as I explained in my last post. They're uncompetitive because they remove skill from the game and put a greater emphasis on luck. In a pure competitive game, the player who exhibits the most skill will win. In Pokemon, this skill is exhibited through teambuilding and in-battle decision making. Pokemon is also different in that there is a random number generator that creates chance events, which can influence the game and cause raw luck to triumph over skill. Evasion moves are nothing more than an attempt to abuse the RNG and create those scenarios where luck overwrites skill. No, they don't work the majority of the time. Heck, Moody didn't even work the majority of the time. OHKO moves don't work the majority of the time. But the fact that evasion moves can cause a more skilled player to lose to a less skilled player just because the dice weren't in his/her favor is downright ridiculous.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

No, that's not why they're uncompetitive, as I explained in my last post. They're uncompetitive because they remove skill from the game and put a greater emphasis on luck. In a pure competitive game, the player who exhibits the most skill will win. In Pokemon, this skill is exhibited through teambuilding and in-battle decision making. Pokemon is also different in that there is a random number generator that creates chance events, which can influence the game and cause raw luck to triumph over skill. Evasion moves are nothing more than an attempt to abuse the RNG and create those scenarios where luck overwrites skill. No, they don't work the majority of the time. Heck, Moody didn't even work the majority of the time. OHKO moves don't work the majority of the time. But the fact that evasion moves can cause a more skilled player to lose to a less skilled player just because the dice weren't in his/her favor is downright ridiculous.

I'm all for keeping evasion banned, but can't the same be said for Flinchrachi?

 

[Xiom]

What I don't get with evasion clause is why it doesn't include everything that boost evasion, I would at least appreciate consistency. Sure Bright Powder and Acupressure are unreliable to the point it's a non-issue but they are just as uncompetitive. I see a point in with making a distinction between evasion and other luck factors but not between good evasion and bad evasion.

I'm all for keeping evasion banned, but can't the same be said for Flinchrachi?

Obviously you could use a similar argument for everything that has some element of luck but you can make a clear distinction between flinching and evasion.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Obviously you could use a similar argument for everything that has some element of luck but you can make a clear distinction between flinching and evasion.

Which is?

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I'm all for keeping evasion banned, but can't the same be said for Flinchrachi?

Yes, and many people have complained about Jirachi for that very reason. However, there's a huge difference between Jirachi and Double Team in that Jirachi is just one Pokemon, while Double Team is learned by every single Pokemon that can learn TMs. At least with Jirachi, you know what you're dealing with. It can only paralyze certain things depending on whether it runs Body Slam or Thunder Wave (and in 6th Gen, it can't even paralyze Electric-types at all). Iron Head isn't the strongest thing in the world, and coming off an uninvested base 100 Atk stat, you can hardly scratch Pokemon like Jellicent and Heatran. As for Double Team, it's far more complicated to actually shut down. You can't just toss a Whirlwind Skarmory on your team and call it a day since you don't know what your opponent's Double Team abuser might be. If it's Landorus-T, you shut it down, but if it's Thundurus-T, Skarmory will die trying to phaze it. Haze Vaporeon seems like a great idea until you find out that the Double Team user in question is a Technician Breloom.

Which is?

Mainly that flinching successfully requires you to use the same move over and over. If the opponent takes little damage from the move, you're probably not flinching past them without some insanely serious hax. Evasion on the other hand lets you dodge an attack while doing whatever you want. Sure, Double Team and Minimize require an initial turn of setup, but after that the opponent can abuse a miss however they like. Sand Veil and Snow Cloak users don't even have to worry wasting a turn.

 

[Xiom]

Which is?

Evasion is evading the move and flinching is preventing the opponent from moving for the rest of the turn. Flinching can be prevented by attacking before your opponent. You can use other moves while still evading, and so on.

Edit: To clarify, just because evasion is banned because it involves luck doesn't mean everything involving luck should automatically be banned as well.

If people don't want to deal with evasion I won't complain, only problem I have with it is my slightly autistic side preferring to straight out ban all forms of evasion or allow all forms of evasion.

 

[GRs Cousin]

Just the other day, I was working towards getting a Choice Specs in the Battle Maison when I came across a trainer's Magcargo. It used Double Team once. Once. And yet I couldn't hit it at all. It proceeded to use Shell Smash and kill off the rest of my team. My 19-battle streak ended because of the use of one move, one time.

A Magcargo I was ready to hit with Surf wouldn't die because it used Double Team once.

That is just a basic example of how broken evasion is. Other moves have the potential to be broken if luck favors you. However, the fact remains that crits don't happen every 5 turns in a battle. A single stat-boosting move does not immediately make a Pokemon hax as there is always a notable downside to them. You spam Cotton Guard, you'll leave your special defense open. You spam Swords Dance, you risk the opponent making your boost worthless through a switch. Double Team, on the other hand, only benefits you the more you use it. Use it once, and the potential to be broken is not only very potent, but very likely as well. Sand Veil Gliscor with Substitute and Double Team, for example, needs only one good turn of luck to immediately become immortal. Where the hell does skill come in at that point? Shell Smash does not screw an opponent over, lack of preparation does. Even if you do come prepared with something like Aerial Ace or Keen Eyes, said Gliscor will still wall you to death in the 3 turns out of 10 you actually hit it. That is the serious difference.

So no, nobody wants Evasion for the reason that it does not add anything to the meta beyond lower-skilled players potentially getting higher on the ladder simply through sheer luck alone. A balanced game does not rely on luck, which is exclusively what evasion is.

 

[neato]

No we can't and won't. As a community, we are generally in favor of some slight modifications to mechanics we deem convenient (see: Sleep Clause), however overwhelmingly we are dedicated to real game mechanics. Without a dedication to real game mechanics, there's no real point in calling it a "simulator" as we'd no longer be simulating actual Pokemon battles. We'd be playing our own made up game.

On alternative servers, or just for fun, we may make cooked-up versions of the game for fun. However in true competitive Pokemon, a dedication to real mechanics is necessary (for 99% of everything... there is a tiny bit of grey area...)

Explain to me how you consider banning evasion dedication to real game mechanics?? We'd be playing our own made up game? Explain to me how that's not exactly what you're doing, playing your own made up game without evasion.

Honestly, this seems like people being afraid of change. Fact of the matter is, evasion mechanics are different now. It's no longer pure luck, so it's no longer uncompetitive. roar/whirlwind 100% accurate. toxic from poison pkm 100% accurate. defog and haze with defog getting a GAME defining buff. People are applying outdated knowledge to a complete new meta.


If someone uses double team, or minimize just once, and out of pure luck you can't hit them, and they sweep you because of it, before this gen I would call that uncompetitive. This generation, if someone uses double team or minimize just once and out of pure luck you can't hit them and they sweep, I call that you being outplayed because you had several solutions available to you.

Seriously, its like complaining about all your pokemon dying to stealth rock and refusing to use rapid spin.

 

[LastFootnote]

Evasion will never be unbanned on Smogon because of the positive feedback loop Smogon has that reinforces its own silly, outdated rules. Do 95% of Smogonites really want to keep evasion banned? Maybe. But if that's true it's because players who don't like Smogon's rules usually don't hang around on Smogon. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Any suspect test will just reconfirm that most people who stick around on Smogon hate evasion, and it will remain banned.

In short, evasion is banned because the old guard here doesn't like it. They can call it uncompetitive, but that's not really meaningful. From where I sit evasion is an interesting, if annoying strategy, and more viable strategies = more variety = better game. Banning it in a single-elimination tournament? I could see arguments for that. Banning it on a ladder? Silliness. It'll all balance out over time. Nobody is going to rise to the top of the ladder because of evasion hax.

 

[GRs Cousin]

Evasion will never be unbanned on Smogon because of the positive feedback loop Smogon has that reinforces its own silly, outdated rules. Do 95% of Smogonites really want to keep evasion banned? Maybe. But if that's true it's because players who don't like Smogon's rules usually don't hang around on Smogon. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Any suspect test will just reconfirm that most people who stick around on Smogon hate evasion, and it will remain banned.

In short, evasion is banned because the old guard here doesn't like it. They can call it uncompetitive, but that's not really meaningful. From where I sit evasion is an interesting, if annoying strategy, and more viable strategies = more variety = better game. Banning it in a single-elimination tournament? I could see arguments for that. Banning it on a ladder? Silliness. It'll all balance out over time. Nobody is going to rise to the top of the ladder because of evasion hax.

Gliscor @ Leftovers
244 HP / 248 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
Ability: Sand Veil
- Double Team
- Substitute
- Toxic / Earthquake
- Ice Fang / Taunt

Here are the attacking moves that cannot miss:

• Aerial Ace
• Aura Sphere
• Clear Smog
• Feint Attack
• Magical Leaf
• Magnet Bomb
• Shadow Punch
• Shock Wave
• Swift
• Vital Throw

Of these, only Aura Sphere, Clear Smog, Magical Leaf, Shock Wave, and Swift are not physical. Only Magical Leaf and Swift have neutral effectiveness.

Your opponent has 4 turns of Sandstorm left. They're going to use Substitute on the turn you switched on part of how your Earthquake user has no good moves against Gliscor. You can switch to anything in OU or below.

List every possible counter to this and explain how common these counters are.

 

[LastFootnote]

Gliscor @ Leftovers
244 HP / 248 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
Ability: Sand Veil
- Double Team
- Substitute
- Toxic / Earthquake
- Ice Fang / Taunt

Here are the attacking moves that cannot miss:

• Aerial Ace
• Aura Sphere
• Clear Smog
• Feint Attack
• Magical Leaf
• Magnet Bomb
• Shadow Punch
• Shock Wave
• Swift
• Vital Throw

Of these, only Aura Sphere, Clear Smog, Magical Leaf, Shock Wave, and Swift are not physical. Only Magical Leaf and Swift have neutral effectiveness.

Your opponent has 4 turns of Sandstorm left. They're going to use Substitute on the turn you switched on part of how your Earthquake user has no good moves against Gliscor. You can switch to anything in OU or below.

List every possible counter to this and explain how common these counters are.

A. Roar and Whirlwind go through Substitute and cannot miss. Barring that, I'd rather just use sound-based moves to bypass the sub and take my chances with evasion rather than try to break the sub down.
B. Your whole argument is based on Smogon's 6v6 swtich-to-a-counter metagame, which GameFreak neither supports nor tries to balance.

 

[neato]

well just from gen v.
not counting pokemon from gen vi. And lets make it even harder. lets give gliscor poison heal so he cant be poisoned. and I can only use OU pokemon

because roar, and whirlwind are now 100% accurate, and defog has been buffed. using just gen v pokemon, in gen vi, this would be countered by:

via Whirlwind:
Starraptor
hippowdon
skarmory
volcarona

via Roar:
Donphan
Dragonite
Garchomp
Gyrados
Haxorus
Heatran
Hippowdon
Hydreigon
Infernape
Jolteon
Keldeo
Latias
Latios
Lucario
Mamoswine
Ninetales
Salamence
Skarmory
Terrakion
Tyranitar
Vaporeon
Venusaur.

via Defog:
scizor
latias
skarmory
gliscor
flygon

and just for fun death by struggle:
Crobat.

And if you're nitpicky remove everyone of those pokemon that weak to earthquake, and you still have a pretty big list.

 

[Yamborski]

^ Let's not throw out made up numbers as facts. And even if this was true, you're talking about pre-gen 6 evasion. Now that it's been nerfed to hell and back there is a good chance it may be considered a just another stupid gimmick. Either way once the gen 6 metagame officially starts we'll be able to tell whether it's the case or not.

"nerfed to hell and back" you say.

We had the same arguments at the start of gen 5 for moody. Turned out the people who supported moody did so mostly because they were bad players. Did you support moody in OU? I suggest you take some consideration of the lessons past players have learned (over and over again). If an ability with 1/7th chance to sharply raise evasion can make Bidoof a potential uber please do not underestimate how horrifically broken it would be to give evasion boosts to every single Pokemon in the game. If Moody doesn't ring a bell how about Sand Veil Garchomp in gen 4? Remember watching that ass fucker dodge Ice Beams and Outrages like they were Stone Edges?

You say you can Defog, or Whirlwind, or Aura Sphere or whatever, but you can't prepare for everything. When a Pokemon uses Double Team (or Minimize) you must realize it has 3 remaining moveset slots to fuck you with. Sorry but your Whirlwind Skarmory is going to do a very bad job of stopping my Double Team Jolteon.

Watching something Double Team up while your 100% accurate move misses is not fun. It does not benefit the game in any way. It has been banned every single generation without fail for good reason, and each new generation a new wave of players has the bright idea to test it again because of "new ways" to defeat it, completely ignorant that the problem is due to those methods being fucking terrible and probably less effective than just crossing your fingers and hoping you don't miss.

 

[nikovan]

I just cannot see an Evasion boosting meta as a fun one. I understand your points about this generations bringing more tools to deal with it, but I still find it extremely annoying. I would not like to play a full Evasion increase team, especially because all 6 of your Pokemon can carry Double Team + brightpowder and I refuse to carry 6 Pokemon with a phazing move or Defor. That's just plain stupid.

 

[Pata Hikari]

Just the other day, I was working towards getting a Choice Specs in the Battle Maison when I came across a trainer's Magcargo. It used Double Team once. Once. And yet I couldn't hit it at all. It proceeded to use Shell Smash and kill off the rest of my team. My 19-battle streak ended because of the use of one move, one time.

A Magcargo I was ready to hit with Surf wouldn't die because it used Double Team once.

So? You literally one 19 Battles beforehand. Luck made you lose 1 out of 20 battles. That's why evasion isn't a big deal, because it's never going to do anything more then change the results of one or two fights.

 

[neato]

"nerfed to hell and back" you say.

We had the same arguments at the start of gen 6 for moody. Turned out the people who supported moody did so mostly because they were bad players. Did you support moody in OU? I suggest you take some consideration of the lessons past players have learned (over and over again). If an ability with 1/7th chance to sharply raise evasion can make Bidoof a potential uber please do not underestimate how horrifically broken it would be to give evasion boosts to every single Pokemon in the game. If Moody doesn't ring a bell how about Sand Veil Garchomp in gen 4? Remember watching that ass fucker dodge Ice Beams and Outrages like they were Stone Edges?

You say you can Defog, or Whirlwind, or Aura Sphere or whatever, but you can't prepare for everything. When a Pokemon uses Double Team (or Minimize) you must realize it has 3 remaining moveset slots to fuck you with. Sorry but your Whirlwind Skarmory is going to do a very bad job of stopping my Double Team Jolteon.

Watching something Double Team up while your 100% accurate move misses is not fun. It does not benefit the game in any way. It has been banned every single generation without fail for good reason, and each new generation a new wave of players has the bright idea to test it again because of "new ways" to defeat it, completely ignorant that the problem is due to those methods being fucking terrible and probably less effective than just crossing your fingers and hoping you don't miss.

I mean if you're forced to use specific pokemon vs specific pokemon as your counter argument, then I can say your double team jolteon can't do anything against my roar swampert. And then you'll say I'll support it with my swampert counter. and then I'll support with my anti-swampert counter, and so your bring out your anti-anti- swampert counter, and congrats we now have a pokemon metagame.

And I can use this argument with multiple pokemon. Oh you have a double team jolteon. Let me bring in my venusaur with 100% accurate toxic. While you attack with unboosted attacks. I'll happily toxic and wait you out. thanks for the free switch in and substitute while you waste all those turns using double team btw. And then you'll say I'll bring in my venusaur counter, and then i'll say I'll bring in my anti-venusaur counter, blah blah blah blah

And you're doing all that work for the 30% chance you wont get hit when jolteon first uses double team.

seriously, if the best argument you have is, well my pokemon is uncounterable if you have use this specific pokemon to fight against it, I'd say this issue is already been concluded.

edit- Also keep in mind, I'm not saying for sure evasion should be unbanned. But we're at a point where so many changes has happened, that you can't say evasion should be banned. Because right now we don't know and it would be worth testing.

 

[Sound]

B. Your whole argument is based on Smogon's 6v6 swtich-to-a-counter metagame, which GameFreak neither supports nor tries to balance.

Uh... I think you should check the name of the site. This is a thread concerning Smogon's metagame. If you want to change something (or stop a change) with GF's meta, this site has nothing to do with it.

So? You literally one 19 Battles beforehand. Luck made you lose 1 out of 20 battles. That's why evasion isn't a big deal, because it's never going to do anything more then change the results of one or two fights.

A. He probably didn't see Double Team before. Assuming all 20 battles were made of three double-team 'mons, you're going to lose a lot more battles.
B. If that one battle is a tournament finals, there's going to be a **** storm. And, trust me, it can happen.

You can toss around your counters all you want, everything has counters. Extreme-Killer Arceus? lol, noob, just use Scarf Terrakion. The goal is to ban stuff when they make the game less competitive, either by being polarizing (like Arceus or, more relevant, 5th gen Blaziken, Excadrill, and more) or by being heavily luck based (like evasion and Skymin). FlinchRachi isn't either, you're more likely to immobilize with Para-Flinch than you are not to. And, you can get in a check after the initial paralysis because the safest and more probable move for 'rachi is to go for the flinch instead of another paralysis (assuming your check can't take a paralysis, which some can).

 

[LastFootnote]

We had the same arguments at the start of gen 6 for moody. Turned out the people who supported moody did so mostly because they were bad players. Did you support moody in OU? I suggest you take some consideration of the lessons past players have learned (over and over again). If an ability with 1/7th chance to sharply raise evasion can make Bidoof a potential uber please do not underestimate how horrifically broken it would be to give evasion boosts to every single Pokemon in the game.

Ah, now I wasn't around for this debacle personally, but if I understand correctly the problem was that the Moody stall worked to boost ALL of your stats, not just evasion. So I don't think this is a very pertinent argument.

If Moody doesn't ring a bell how about Sand Veil Garchomp in gen 4? Remember watching that ass fucker dodge Ice Beams and Outrages like they were Stone Edges?

So what you're saying is that it should be banned because it's annoying. I don't find that a particularly compelling argument, but I guess it's valid.

You say you can Defog, or Whirlwind, or Aura Sphere or whatever, but you can't prepare for everything. When a Pokemon uses Double Team (or Minimize) you must realize it has 3 remaining moveset slots to fuck you with. Sorry but your Whirlwind Skarmory is going to do a very bad job of stopping my Double Team Jolteon.

Ah, here's the problem. "You can't prepare for everything." No, you can't. If you prepare for evasion, you may open up another hole in your defenses. You really can't prepare for everything. That's the way it goes. It doesn't make the game worse, just different.

Watching something Double Team up while your 100% accurate move misses is not fun. It does not benefit the game in any way. It has been banned every single generation without fail for good reason, and each new generation a new wave of players has the bright idea to test it again because of "new ways" to defeat it, completely ignorant that the problem is due to those methods being fucking terrible and probably less effective than just crossing your fingers and hoping you don't miss.

For good reason? I think not. I'm totally willing to believe it was banned for good reason back in 1st gen. The fact that it's been carried over to 6th gen is because evasion is unpopular.

 

[Pata Hikari]

A. He probably didn't see Double Team before. Assuming all 20 battles were made of three double-team 'mons, you're going to lose a lot more battles.
B. If that one battle is a tournament finals, there's going to be a **** storm. And, trust me, it can happen.

A. And you're going to win more then you lose either way, the point is that missing a few times isn't going make you the worst at Pokemon ever, it means that some person worse at the game won a lucky match, before you trounce him three more times because they're bad if they're relying on a luck based strategy like that.
B. What tournament would have it so that a single match is the deciding outcome? Single elimination tournaments are dumb. Edit: Also I don't see how that's any different then the match being decided by a missed Focus Blast. Unless you're talking about the hypothetical situation when a person got multiple Double Teams off, in which case they deserve the win because the opponent let them set up on them like that.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Honestly, this seems like people being afraid of change. Fact of the matter is, evasion mechanics are different now. It's no longer pure luck, so it's no longer uncompetitive. roar/whirlwind 100% accurate. toxic from poison pkm 100% accurate. defog and haze with defog getting a GAME defining buff. People are applying outdated knowledge to a complete new meta.

I've already explained before why those aren't always unreliable. Roar and Whirlwind don't do anything against Baton Pass teams, probably the greatest benefactors of dropping the Evasion Clause. Toxic fails against Poison-types, Steel-types, Pokemon with Substitute, Magic Guard/Bounce users, Pokemon with Taunt, etc. Defog and Haze are good, but even then you still have to have the right solution for the right Double Team user. Everything learns Double Team, so you will never know what sort of evasion booster you're going to have to deal with until you actually see the move. You'll have to run multiple anti-Double Team measures to really be safe, and then you'll be going through quite a bit of trouble just to avoid being haxed, don't you think?

From where I sit evasion is an interesting, if annoying strategy, and more viable strategies = more variety = better game.

Clicking "Double Team" and praying for hax isn't a strategy. It's a desperate attempt by bad players at uprooting the legitimate skill advantage of good players.

Nobody is going to rise to the top of the ladder because of evasion hax.

Lol, I laddered to around #15 on the Ubers ladder not too long after Evasion moves were unbanned with a really crappy team based on Minimize Drifblim alongside a few random sweepers, and I'm an average player at best. Yes, people can rise to the top of the ladder with enough luck.

B. Your whole argument is based on Smogon's 6v6 swtich-to-a-counter metagame, which GameFreak neither supports nor tries to balance.

So your argument about evasion moves in Smogon's metagame isn't based on Smogon's metagame?

ia Whirlwind:
Starraptor

Yeah, sorry, I stopped reading after Whirlwind Staraptor.

I mean if you're forced to use specific pokemon vs specific pokemon as your counter argument, then I can say your double team jolteon can't do anything against my roar swampert. And then you'll say I'll support it with my swampert counter. and then I'll support with my anti-swampert counter, and so your bring out your anti-anti- swampert counter, and congrats we now have a pokemon metagame.

If Jolteon has a Life Orb and HP Grass, it OHKOs some variants of Swampert, but I digress. From the standpoint of the teambuilder, how are you supposed to know what the opponent's Double Team user is? You can't just excuse it as "well, no matter what Double Team user you mention, I'll have an appropriate counter" because team building doesn't work like that. Are you seriously supporting running several no miss moves, phazers, Poison-type Toxic users, etc. just so that hax doesn't get the best of you?

Ah, now I wasn't around for this debacle personally, but if I understand correctly the problem was that the Moody stall worked to boost ALL of your stats, not just evasion. So I don't think this is a very pertinent argument.

No, evasion was by far the worst part about Moody. I actually was around for that, and I remember not only the early Moody days, but also the more recent Moody suspect test in Ubers.