Other Evasion

[JayHankEdLyon]

Or since he's wasting his turns spamming Double Team, I KO the annoyance and beat the bad player.

Did the whole part where you're supposed to explain just HOW you do that escape you or something?

I mean it's explicitly the point of this exercise. This is like if someone asked you how to solve the Mideast Crisis and you replied with "While they're wasting their time fighting each other I solve the problem!"

 

[neato]

what? this gliscor all of a sudden is allowed 6movess or something.

if he has sub, double team, earthquake, and taunt, then i dont need to do anything special. bring in a flyer, go afk.

 

[Celestial Phallus]

Or since he's wasting his turns spamming Double Team, I KO the annoyance and beat the bad player.

How do you KO if you can't hit him, though? What if you miss and he keeps boosting and you keep missing?

 

[Agent Gibbs]

he wasn't asking me to create a good phaser.
He was asking me to counter his evasion based gliscor.

Ok, but I think he was wanting something that could actually be seriously used in the metagame. Skarmory is one thing. Staraptor is a whole other story.

Also, does anyone know how Defog works when blocked by Magic Bounce/Magic Coat? I know it was blocked in Gen 5, but now that it removes hazards from both sides, does it really matter if it's blocked or not?

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

what? this gliscor all of a sudden is allowed 6movess or something.

if he has sub, double team, earthquake, and taunt, then i dont need to do anything special. bring in a flyer, go afk.

Ice Fang. Go.

 

[Pata Hikari]

How do you KO if you can't hit him, though? What if you miss and he keeps boosting and you keep missing?

Then I lose one match because a bad player gets lucky. So? That bad player isn't going to win often just relying on luck. Eventually they'll learn that spamming Double Team is a bad move, and then get better. Or not, and they stick to the dregs of the ladder forever.

I don't really care.

 

[Xiom]

How do you KO if you can't hit him, though? What if you miss and he keeps boosting and you keep missing?

That's why bright powder should be banned under evasion clause too.

 

[Celestial Phallus]

Then I lose one match because a bad player gets lucky. So? That bad player isn't going to win often just relying on luck. Eventually they'll learn that spamming Double Team is a bad move, and then get better. Or not, and they stick to the dregs of the ladder forever.

I don't really care.

Now say you battle 7 of those people in a row, because lets face it, PS ladder sucks and so many people would abuse evasion. Where are you then?

 

[neato]

Ice Fang. Go.

0 Atk Gliscor Ice Fang vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 26-31 (7.95 - 9.48%)
0 Atk Gliscor Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 58-70 (13.8 - 16.66%) -- 9HKO at best
0 Atk Gliscor Ice Fang vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 35-42 (8.72 - 10.47%) -- 9HKO at best

rofl. leftovers beats that

 

[Pata Hikari]

Now say you battle 7 of those people in a row, because lets face it, PS ladder sucks and so many people would abuse evasion. Where are you then?

I win more often then not, progress away from those losers, and play the game.

That's why bright powder should be banned under evasion clause too.

Ban all moves with secondary effect that have a chance of happening. It's not competitive for me to lose a match because the opponent got a lucky burn in from Scald.

 

[Celestial Phallus]

0 Atk Gliscor Ice Fang vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 26-31 (7.95 - 9.48%)
0 Atk Gliscor Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 58-70 (13.8 - 16.66%) -- 9HKO at best
0 Atk Gliscor Ice Fang vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 35-42 (8.72 - 10.47%) -- 9HKO at best

rofl. leftovers beats that

I'm sorry is Hippowdown a staraptor? No? How about Skarmory?

 

[Pata Hikari]

Ban paralysis, it's uncompetitive for me to lose a match because I got unlucky with paralysis.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Ban all moves with secondary effect that have a chance of happening. It's not competitive for me to lose a match because the opponent got a lucky burn in from Scald.

Ban paralysis, it's uncompetitive for me to lose a match because I got unlucky with paralysis.

There's a certain point where you cross over the line from promoting competitiveness to complete madness. Banning a pair of moves, abilities, and items is a much different story from banning most moves in the game or manipulating game mechanics that would in no way be changeable on an actual cartridge.

 

[neato]

I'm sorry is Hippowdown a staraptor? No? How about Skarmory?

I'm sorry are you still talking about this mythical 6 move slot gliscor?

 

[Xiom]

Ban all moves with secondary effect that have a chance of happening. It's not competitive for me to lose a match because the opponent got a lucky burn in from Scald.

Just because you ban evasion doesn't mean you have to remove all luck based elements. Evasion is clearly unique from all other luck factors in the game.

Edit: To elaborate, evasion is the only luck aspect that doesn't involve the opponent. Not everything can be paralyzed, you can't flinch faster pokemon etc. Other elements of luck might swing the game slightly in your favor ultimately resulting in you winning a game you shouldn't have. But evasion can let you win situations where all other luck factors combined wouldn't even be enough.

 

[Pata Hikari]

Just because you ban evasion doesn't mean you have to remove all luck based elements. Evasion is clearly unique from all other luck factors in the game.

No it isn't. The only reason evasion is treated as special is because of community inertia.

There's a certain point where you cross over the line from promoting competitiveness to complete madness. Banning a pair of moves, abilities, and items is a much different story from banning most moves in the game or manipulating game mechanics that would in no way be changeable on an actual cartridge.

How is any of this impossible? On simulators just make those moves illegal. Any move that gives paralysis isn't allowed, any more with a chance of a secondary chance of happening is banned. With actual cartridge play just make it in tournaments anybody who breaks those rules are disqualified. It's no different then any other ban going on.

Of course, my point is that it's ridiculous.

 

[Yamborski]

No it isn't.

Yes it is. You are bad.

 

[LastFootnote]

Just because you ban evasion doesn't mean you have to remove all luck based elements. Evasion is clearly unique from all other luck factors in the game.

LOL, how? That's just your opinion.

 

[Pata Hikari]

Yes it is. You are bad.

You know, you're right, it is unique.

It's the only one that will actively lead you to lose games.

 

[Mattman324]

Well this didn't take long to become an absolute clusterfuck.

Personal opinion on evasion is that the moves should be banned, Brightpowder and its derivatives don't matter (it's only a rare set that uses them anyway), and Sand Veil and Snow Cloak should prroooooobably be allowed (with Moody, Bidoof could sweep OU, with Sand Veil Sandshrew still can't even hope to.)

 

[Celestial Phallus]

Yes it is. You are bad.

You know, you're right, it is unique.

It's the only one that will actively lead you to lose games.

Good job Yamborski, slowly turning them to our side one by one is the way to do it!

 

[Sound]

Beat the following team with no more then two 'mons.

Hide

Espeon with Double Team, Substitute, Baton Pass, Toxic
Gliscor with Double Team, Substitute, Baton Pass, Taunt
Ninjask with Double Team, Substitute, Baton Pass, Taunt
(M)Absol with Double Team, Substitute, Baton Pass, Sucker Punch
Smeargle (Moody and Focus Sash) with Minimize, Baton Pass, Spore, Quiver Dance
Keldeo with Hydro Pump, Secret Sword, Substitute, Toxic

All use their normal EVs and natures. Your 'mons have to work no matter what leads the battle. Gogogo.

 

[GRs Cousin]

well just from gen v.
not counting pokemon from gen vi. And lets make it even harder. lets give gliscor poison heal so he cant be poisoned. and I can only use OU pokemon

because roar, and whirlwind are now 100% accurate, and defog has been buffed. using just gen v pokemon, in gen vi, this would be countered by:

via Whirlwind:
Starraptor
hippowdon
skarmory
volcarona

via Roar:
Donphan
Dragonite
Garchomp
Gyrados
Haxorus
Heatran
Hippowdon
Hydreigon
Infernape
Jolteon
Keldeo
Latias
Latios
Lucario
Mamoswine
Ninetales
Salamence
Skarmory
Terrakion
Tyranitar
Vaporeon
Venusaur.

via Defog:
scizor
latias
skarmory
gliscor
flygon

and just for fun death by struggle:
Crobat.

And if you're nitpicky remove everyone of those pokemon that weak to earthquake, and you still have a pretty big list.

I said hard counter, first of all, meaning that a chunk of those Pokemon are still stopped dead in their tracks with the right variant of the moveset. Second of all, note how a majority of the Pokemon you listed do not use Whirlwind or Roar in any of their commonly listed sets. So here is the actual list:

Gyarados
Heatran
Hippowdon
Skarmory
Tyranitar
Vaporeon
Crobat
Flygon
Gliscor
Latias
Scizor

Then we factor in the Pokemon that are shut down by Taunt... Which is anyone using Roar or Whirlwind. So that leaves the Defog users.

Crobat
Flygon
Gliscor
Latias
Scizor
Skarmory

Anyone slower than Gliscor is still shut down by Taunt, so...

Crobat
Flygon
Gliscor
Latias

That finally leaves the fact that Gliscor may have the set of Double Team/Substitute/Ice Fang/Taunt, meaning they're all hit for decent damage from Ice Fang. Meaning this set has no real hard counters, only soft counters. You hear that? There's no definite way to counter Double Team Gliscor outside of maybe a faster Gliscor or Crobat's Taunt. If the entire metagame comes down to needing to prepare for one set on one Pokemon, there's clearly something broken and very wrong about using an evasion move on Gliscor.

My point stands. Evasion is broken and purely luck-based.

So? You literally one 19 Battles beforehand. Luck made you lose 1 out of 20 battles. That's why evasion isn't a big deal, because it's never going to do anything more then change the results of one or two fights.

None of the 19 battles beforehand used Double Team. The battle involving Double Team made me lose. That is why it's completely a big deal.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

No it isn't. The only reason evasion is treated as special is because of community inertia.

How is any of this impossible? On simulators just make those moves illegal. Any move that gives paralysis isn't allowed, any more with a chance of a secondary chance of happening is banned. With actual cartridge play just make it in tournaments anybody who breaks those rules are disqualified. It's no different then any other ban going on.

Of course, my point is that it's ridiculous.

I was actually referring to the "ban paralysis" part, assuming you meant ban it altogether without actually banning the moves that cause it. Either way, those are far more ridiculous that just banning a couple of evasion things. At least paralysis has some competitive use due to the speed drop, Electric-types are completely immune to it, and each paralysis-inducing move will completely fail against many Pokemon depending on the type. Oh, and you have to use it again every time the opponent sends in a new Pokemon. You can't just set it up once and let the haxfest begin.

EDIT @ Below: Each of those concerns has been answered multiple times already in this thread.

 

[Rickyticq]

I honestly can't see how anybody who argues for evasion clause based on "luck" can do so while so many games in 5th Gen OU were based on game-breaking luck moves like a hit/miss Keldeo Hydro Pump or T-tar Stone Edge. Like, I get how evasion would be broken on some 'mons, but it's just lazy to ban it altogether for an entire tier when there are so many ways to counter it now.