Other Stall

[Shroomisaur]

Crobat is definitely a pokemon to watch out and every stall team must be prepared to deal with it.

It has Infiltrator, for starters, meaning Subs won't stop it.
It has Defog, so it's going to remove your entry hazards.
It has U-Turn, meaning it can't be trapped with Infestation.
It's a Poison-type, so you can't Toxic it.
It has Hypnosis, which has 80% accuracy after a -1 evasion drop from Defog. It also goes through Substitute thanks to Infiltrator.
And the cherry on top is its 130 base speed and access to Taunt, so unless you're running a Prankster or base 130+ speed Sleep Talker, you can't even use it to absorb Hypnosis.

MmmmmMMM! Delicious. I can't wait for Crobat to make his return.

As for stall, there definitely needs to be discussion now that we know Defog removes hazards on both sides. How will this impact stall teams? You certainly can't rely on a spinblocker to keep hazards up anymore, so this means you're going to have to protect your hazard setters throughout the match in case they are removed. Defog is also a much bigger nerf to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, as one Defog is guaranteed to remove multiple turns of work setting them up. I think this means stall teams will favor Toxic itself over TSpikes now... and Crobat just so happens to be one of the best users of Toxic there is, with perfect accuracy and being able to hit behind subs.

 

[Alphanex20]

Defog Empoleon is especially a pain for stall, its immune to toxic and gets SR itself. It won't be easy for a stall team to stop the defog then prevent it from setting up its own rocks or Roaring. Crobat isn't the best option to stop it since a Scald burn or Ice Beam will hurt (and the bat can't touch it).

 

[ginganinja]

yea lol, with the buff on Defog, stall just got wrecked.

 

[Kejmur]

yea lol, with the buff on Defog, stall just got wrecked.

Nope. Stall will be totally different and will need to adapt, but it won't die IMO. I explained in Defog move thread why, but I'll type it here as well. It will be just harder to use and you'll need to be much more creative while building it.

Instead of entry hazards spam + phazing stall may throw in 3-4 status users instead (Toxic, WoW) for passive damage and you may still use for example SR. Or even 2 SR users for example and just use them in more careful manner. Once Defog user is dead - nothing stops from throwing it in as it is easy to do. Also for example defensive trapping + status killing is another way of stalling opponents out. I would rather say stall is buffed, because this is huge massive middle finger to hyper offense (Spike stacking HO for example was a NIGHTMARE for stall, now it's technically dead), the style which is the one WHICH NEEDS HAZARDS NO MATTER WHAT. Being screwed up by random Sturdy/Focus Sash users + suicide hazards leads being technically useless is probably worst news for hyper offense which can be. Just check how many calcs with hazards secure those OHKOs and 2HKOs for hyper offense is immense. Without them - this style straight up sucks.

So yeah - in other words don't rely on phazing like before but more on throwing status around + making sure you survive long enough (Wish passing, Pokemon with reliable recovery) that you finish opponent before he does you.

 

[neato]

does infiltrator work on toxic?

if thats the case stall will also run a crobat of their own

 

[WashedLaundry]

Hell, I've thought about running Crobat regardless of this as it's useful to have a stallbreaker for your own team in some cases as it makes Stall v Stall matches a hell of a lot easier.

Either way, I don't see the defog changes killing stall. HO won't sacrifice their rocks/spikes for the world, so they'll like still pack spinners over defoggers at the most. As long as you have suicidal or fragile hazard setters, defog won't rise prominently at all. It might make you play a bit more conservatively if you do see a Defog 'Mon on the other side of the field but I doubt this'll overtake Rapid Spin as the opportunity cost is a bit high, even if we're at somewhat of a dearth of good Rapid Spinners this gen.

Just goes to show you how much people think stall is simply hazards+phazing though. Good lord.

 

[Nubbins]

The return of burn stall!

 

[WashedLaundry]

With the WoW buff that's a scary (but good) prospect.

 

[gali]

I think that the buffed partial trapping moves are the best direction for Stall now. Combined with Toxic, you'll be doing upwards of 3/16 max health in passive damage every turn. Here's an example set:

Hippowdon@Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Def, 4 SpD
-Sand Tomb
-Toxic
Slack Off
-Substitute/Ice Fang

With this set, You're doing upwards of 1/4 max HP in passive damage every turn. And there are other good users of partial trapping moves, such as Magma Storm TormenTran.

 

[Seth Wes]

Seriously though, the buff to trapping moves is worth a look, has anyone confirmed how much damage they do per turn with a binding band equipped?

Someone said a sixth every turn now, so a trapped pokemon would die after two wraps and at least 6 turns and no healing. I'm pretty excited to bring back t-wave/wrap dragonite. seems legit in a stall team, with maybe whirlpool for ghosts.

 

[nikovan]

Someone said a sixth every turn now, so a trapped pokemon would die after two wraps and at least 6 turns and no healing. I'm pretty excited to bring back t-wave/wrap dragonite. seems legit in a stall team, with maybe whirlpool for ghosts.

I really like the fact that trapping moves were buffed. However, the main problem I see with those moves is how to properly abuse them. They don't work like Shadow Tag in the sense that switching in on the Pokemon you want to trap means it is already trapped. The way I see it, as soon as you bring your Whirlpool Dragonite into your opponent's Scizor, they'll probably switch out into something that has Ice Beam. And then they'll be hit with Whirlpool, but you'll be switching out anyway because nobody wants their Dragonite dying trying to trap something.

And regarding Whirlpool for ghosts, I think ghosts can switch out of anything this Gen. I'm not sure about Binding moves though, but if they can escape Mean Look and Shadow Tag, they probably can escape Binding moves.

I think that the buffed partial trapping moves are the best direction for Stall now. Combined with Toxic, you'll be doing upwards of 3/16 max health in passive damage every turn. Here's an example set:

Hippowdon@Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Def, 4 SpD
-Sand Tomb
-Toxic
Slack Off
-Substitute/Ice Fang

With this set, You're doing upwards of 1/4 max HP in passive damage every turn. And there are other good users of partial trapping moves, such as Magma Storm TormenTran.

Hippowdon cannot trap flying, ghost or levitating Pokemon, so that's something that has to be accounted for.

As a matter of fact, I can only see TormentTran and Pokemon that can work similarly running successful Binding sets.

 

[Kyubey]

With the WoW buff that's a scary (but good) prospect.

WoW buff? I just did a quick search but couldn't find about that. Mind to enlighten me?

 

[sidakarya]

Prankster Sableye is one burn-staller that can work well with the Will-o'-the-wisp buff. It also has access to a trapping move, recovery and taunt, all with priority, and STAB on Foul Play.

 

[gali]

WoW got buffed to 85% sccuracy.

 

[Alphanex20]

Stall shooting up might make people run clerics on their teams more (Florges and Sylveon come to mind for more offensive teams). Frankly I like how Hyper Offense is starting to shrivel up and Bulky Offense/Mixed teams have a chance now. In Gen V it felt like, for me, if you used a stallbreaker/cleric on a more offensive team you would get ripped in half by HO, and I admit I hated the hyperaggressive mentality that playstyle created.

 

[kalamadude]

I've aways been a stall fan, so I'm intrigued by the new options this generation.

I'm really looking forward to trying out trapping move + status stall. Currently I have a team with Sand Tomb Hippowdon, Wrap Tentacruel, and Toxic Spikes Roserade. I have a Mega Lucario for cleaning. Ideally, the opponent gets poisoned and then trapped so they can't switch and have to take more damage. At the moment, I've only taken a few things away from this:

1. Sand Tomb Hippo is pretty rad even without status backing it up
2. Tentacruel really misses endless rain for healing
3. Mega Lucario is insane and nine times out of ten I just sweep with him straight out instead of doing any stalling :P Close Combat just OHKOd Volcarona at +2. It RESISTS it @.@


I wonder if a WoW Pokemon like Jellicent or Rotom-A would serve this team better since there are so many poison and steel times nowadays that are immune to Toxic. Thing is I am just testing a team to play irl against friends and Jellicent is one of the very few Pokes not available in-game until December :/

 

[Yamborski]

Spikes and SR will be as viable as they always were. It's not like it was easy to spin block in gen 5. Gengar obviously died to pretty much any STAB hit and Jellicent, though tough, could not beat Starmie or Sub Tentacruel.

Though Defog now screws entry hazards it also clears the side of the user, so it's not like it's the end all of stall. If Defog becomes a big player (off the top of my head it's only like Skarmory and Scizor that get it in OU that can use it well) you may see stall shift to more focus on Sandstorm and moves like Infestation and Wrap. They will never stop running entry hazards of course, because even a successful Rapid Spin usually means you are behind. Stealth Rocks and Spikes do damage, Rapid Spin and Defog merely prevents further damage.

Stall if anything may have benefited from the overall power reduction of moves and greater focus on type balancing with fairies.

 

[IcyMan28]

Can someone explain to me how stall is the play style that benefits most from buffed trapping moves? If you sand tomb my Suicune as I switch into your Hippowdon, how does that help you at all? I guess it prevents double switching and gives 1/8th passive damage but that's literally it.

In the other hand, if one of your stall core members gets trapped, your team is in big trouble. More than ever, stall needs every pokemon to cover it's bases and losing even one to something like SubToxic Magma Storm heatran (not sure if that's a thing, just making it up) will be devastating.

 

[gali]

The partial trapping moves are useful for stall because of how potent they are combined with Toxic. Take Hippowdon, probably the best user of these moves currently. He can run Binding Band, which ups the residual damage of these moves from 1/8 to 1/6, due to his immense physical bulk and access to reliable recovery. With Sand Stream, Sand Tomb, and Toxic Spikes, any Pokemon not immune to any of these dies from passive damage in just 3 turns, not even taking into account direct damage from Sand Tomb. That's incredible. Admittedly, that's a best- case scenario, but even Pokemon not affected by Sand Stream such as Terrakion and TTar die in about the same amount of time with direct damage from Sand Tomb.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

So I just cracked into "the real gen 6" I suppose on PO and tested out a double sand semi-stall team, and currently I think it is pretty solid. I realize though that a lot of people are just testing out new Pokemon (many of which kinda suck) but currently, stall looks plenty viable.

 

[Stallion]

I'm still kicking ass with stall at the moment, but I am quite worried that once people cotton on to how good defog (in particular Mega Scizor with Defog/Roost/U-Turn/Bullet Punch) is, it's going to be the death of the playstyle. I'm enjoying it while I can though...

EDIT: Right as we speak, a Crobat "Defog'd" me and got rid of all my hazards. Not fun.

 

[56k]

Biggest problems my semi-stall team has been having: Deoxys. If you play on PO make sure to prepare for this guy! I'd say the second most troublesome pokemon has been Rotom-W. I might have to fit Gastrodon in somehow. Gengar is also beastly and so is MegaGengar.

Mega-Blaziken, Mega-Mawile, and Mega-Lucario haven't been much trouble for RestTalkAquatailEarthquake Gyarados but unfortunately Waterfall is unavailable at the moment and Aqua Tail has missed a few times.

Ferrothorn is as good as ever. Lati@s are almost nonexistent and aren't sneaking in any HP Fires. Specially Bulky Hippowdon with Toxic is REALLY good right now.

MegaScizor is no more threatening than regular Scizor, just a tad bulkier.

A lot of people are using Galvantula and Klefki but they're kinda worthless against Hippo + Ferrothorn.

I haven't seen 1 politoed yet, though I did see one or two tentacruels. Tentacruel is pretty bad.

 

[Stallion]

To add to my previous post, this is what happened in a battle between two stallish teams with one containing Defog Crobat. Not cool.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/gen6customgame-58039038

 

[PKMN1]

To add to my previous post, this is what happened in a battle between two stallish teams with one containing Defog Crobat. Not cool.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/gen6customgame-58039038

all I saw was a guy getting outplayed, the Crobat with defog had nothing to do with that. Rapid spin would have done the same thing, just Crobat is cooler than most spinners :)

Also, remember that Defog gets rid of you own hazards as well, which is something that i can see many on here REFUSING to do to their precious hazards.

 

[Raikaria]

I think a few extra points need to be mentioned:

Weather nerf hurts Stall in a way not mentioned in the OP; Sandstorm. Rock Types can't keep the x1.5 Sp.Def buff, and the residual damage is lost as well after 5 turns.

Critical Hits nerf also makes defense boosting moves such as Iron Defense/Cosmic Power/Amnesia more viable. Very few offensive teams will carry a phazer, in most cases. Crits only dealng x1.5 damage makes it a lot easier to deal with. If you had the time to boost up in the first place, and have recovery, a single crit is unlikely to stop you outright.

Defog needs to be mentioned as a downside. Defog now removes all hazards from both sides of the feild, and Defog cannot be blocked by spinblockers. Defog's buff is outright crippleing to stall, and that move alone is just a giant middle finger. Of course it has the downside of removing the hazards the enemy team has set as well; but a team running Defog probobly won't be using hazards. Also the pol of Defoggers is generally a lot stronger than the pool of Spinners. Basically any pokemon that flies can use Defog, including pokemon that were middle fingers to stall already, like Crobat.

Also the general nerf to the base power of moves such as Thunderbolt should be mentioned as an upside. Lower base power = less damage, after all.