Poll for our default simulator tiering level

[Manaphy]

Mechanically, You can only battle people (at least Random people, which i know is the most done thing on the sims) at level 50, there is no way to battle a random person at level 100.

That's not what we simulate, we simulate local battles. This is why Rotom formes were usable in 4th Gen, for example.

 

[Thorhammer]

1. Perfect EV's are now actually decently easy to get now, and the event pokemon, while rare, are probably still possible to have.

Do you know how many perfect IV Wish Blisseys exist? There may not even be any. Perfect IVs may be easy to get for most XY Pokemon, but Pokemon that need a transfer get harder or even impossible.

 

[gvmgvm40]

The point of the sim is to replicate what's possible. If realism was ever to be taken into account we might as well have banned Hidden Power and perfect IV's.

Yeah, and Wish Chansey/Blissey and Tickle Wobbuffet and Tri-Attack Togekiss and Wish Salamence with perfect IVs, because these all come from obscure events and we have no perfectly IV'd versions of these 'mons.

 

[Tribute]

if it aint broke why change it?
how is it that admins who only play balanced hackmons and wifi battlers who are indifferent about sims get the say in a metagame played by competitive battleres who actually give a fuck about the mechanics?
get ur shit together smogon, this will lose u more competitive players to po than you gain from "wifi battlers"

Simming and wifi battles have not been different(Okay minus that occasional moron who brings mewto to an RU battle), other than time. With no legal hacks, if smogon stays at 100, it will be.

And if you want to be hostile, if you want to be an undeservedly elitist waste of oxygen, you might be able to fucking grasp that wifi battling and the "metagame played by competitive battleres who actually give a fuck about the mechanics" havent been in a spot to be different until now. Giving a fuck about the mechanics as you put it, would mean going to 50.

There are actually valid points for 100, you're acting like 12 year old who wants to be special by being above the game

 

[PKMN1]

if it aint broke why change it?
how is it that admins who only play balanced hackmons and wifi battlers who are indifferent about sims get the say in a metagame played by competitive battleres who actually give a fuck about the mechanics?
get ur shit together smogon, this will lose u more competitive players to po than you gain from "wifi battlers"

Because Wi-fi battlers care just as much about the mechanics as a simulator and are able to actually play in normal tournaments unlike simulators.

That's not what we simulate, we simulate local battles. This is why Rotom formes were usable in 4th Gen, for example.

Then how are you able to battle random people, you cannot just run to a random guy and challenge him (despite how much i wish that was true). If you were actually trying to simulate local battles then random battles would not be possible.

 

[Mega Mawile]

I'm curious about the actual changes proposed, the poll says the DEFAULT sim tiering level is the topic, but will both be offered within the Gen 6 sim? If that isn't the case, then Wynaut both; then let the players decide and gravitate to what they prefer? Personally I'd like to have the option for a lvl 50 cap so I could test out changes to a team setup before doing the real work on cartridge, but also have the ability to duke it out at 100 with a Showdown-only team. *shrugs*

 

[Runic]

there is no way to battle a random person at level 100.

But it is definitely possible to battle non-random people at level 100. Like I said, as long as what we do is possible in-game (aside from enforcing clauses and shit like that), the simulator is doing its job.

 

[chimpact]

I don't get it. Level 100 uses the most powerful pokemon and allows for more complex EV spreads. It's unfortunate that there is no auto level 100 option for X/Y, but it's not like there is no option to have level 100 pokemon battles on wifi. You just have to actually get pokemon up to level 100. It's similar to EV training and IV breeding. It just takes much longer imo. Besides its a simulator, and it shouldn't be catering to anybody but the competitive battlers and level 100 fights are more competitive than 50.

 

[Thorhammer]

Then how are you able to battle random people, you cannot just run to a random guy and challenge him (despite how much i wish that was true). If you were actually trying to simulate local battles then random battles would not be possible.

The ladder mechanics are not part of the game simulator; they simulate out-of-game aspects in increasing convenience. It's the equivalent of a bunch of people on Smogon grabbing their games and gathering in a large room, then drawing numbers to see who fights who.

 

[Roadsigns]

Because Wi-fi battlers care just as much about the mechanics as a simulator and are able to actually play in normal tournaments unlike simulators.



Then how are you able to battle random people, you cannot just run to a random guy and challenge him (despite how much i wish that was true). If you were actually trying to simulate local battles then random battles would not be possible.

I think you're putting way too much emphasis on things that aren't important, frankly. You're right that you can't have battles EXACTLY THE SAME AS ON THE SIM on your 3DS, but 'since that's not really what we're aiming for, that's not really the point.

If the only difference is that you can battle with random people on the sim, and on your cartridge you'd have to know them personally (to battle them at level 100), I think it's sort of unimportant.

 

[Gary]

I don't get why some of you people are crying about Simulators being "inaccurate" if we they don't conform to the Wi-Fi meta entirely. Let's put it this way, Smogon doesn't neccesarily HAVE to play exactly how the Wi-Fi meta plays. It just chooses to because it's trying to simulate the best metagame possible without having to form an entirely new set of rules and venture too far away from the competitive scene that GameFreak has envisioned. And I'm sorry, but not conforming to the Level 50 Wi-Fi rule is NOT going to make the simulators and Smogon that less credible of a competitive website. There are only a few differences such as learning a new EV system, learning new Speed tiers, and different damage calculations/mechanics. I don't think it's fair to blame Smogon and simulators credibility because you don't agree with it. It's the same fucking Pokemon, it still plays the same. I have to agree with some of the users above that Level 100 battling is probably the best, most efficient way of competitive battling because it makes everything a whole lot more purer and it's less complex in a way. I just don't neccesarily agree with re-learning damage calculations, EV's and Speed tiers just to make it more like Wi-Fi. Keeping everything Level 100 wont change how the game is played, so I say keep it how it is.

 

[Manaphy]

Because Wi-fi battlers care just as much about the mechanics as a simulator and are able to actually play in normal tournaments unlike simulators.



Then how are you able to battle random people, you cannot just run to a random guy and challenge him (despite how much i wish that was true). If you were actually trying to simulate local battles then random battles would not be possible.

1.) Find Guy
2.) Battle
What is hard about this concept? You don't have to actually know people you battle; and you're post completely ignores fan tournies.

Anyway you should stop, you aren't getting anywhere with your responses.

 

[Innocent Criminal]

Wasting some time levelling pokemons to 100 might only happen very rarely in practice, but it's still incomparably more realistic than an infinite supply of perfect Wish Chansey. The simulator metagame is and will stay different from the legit wifi metagame because there are far worse effort and feasibility restrictions than some level grinding.
Messing with EV mechanics and the damage formula isn't worth cutting down the tree that hides the forest.

 

[norelationstojfk]

Just watch that poll pull forward for the 100 club...

Honestly, why not both? If we need to cater to people who want to play with Wi-Fi rules, like to test a team they want to make for actual Wi-Fi play or something, then we can. But don't shut out the people who want to use level 100s. I haven't used showdown before, but there had to be something like that available last gen where you could choose between Smogon environment and Wi-Fi environment.

Everybody gets what they want, nobody has to play with mechanics they don't want to mess with if we just implement both.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Then how are you able to battle random people, you cannot just run to a random guy and challenge him (despite how much i wish that was true). If you were actually trying to simulate local battles then random battles would not be possible.

At my college I have seen at least 10 other people playing Pokemon X/Y.

So yeah, it is perfectly possible for someone in real life to make eye contact with a person and start a Pokemon battle.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

I don't really care either way, but I lean towards level 50. I have played both level 50 and level 100 Singles 6v6, and really, the differences are so insignificant. Like really? A 4% increase in damage is just not worth whining over. It is true that there are distinct differences between Wifi and Simulator (i.e. you're unlikely to see perfect IVs on Wifi legitimately, though it is easier to get better IVs now,) but the way I see it, the pros of level 50 outweigh the cons. I see people claiming that "it doesn't take that long to get Pokemon up to level 100," but not everyone has a lot of time on their hands to get LOTS of Pokemon up to level 100, because I guarantee you, you'll want to use a variety of teams even on Wifi, and not just the same Pokemon each time. Don't forget you have to add on the time required to breed the Pokemon you want. Not everyone has the time to spend a few hours breeding just ONE Pokemon, then a few more hours to get them to level 100. Personally, I can set some time aside for breeding, but adding on time to get up to level 100 just isn't happening. I'll still spend some time, but I won't have to spend as much time.

I see everyone saying things like "we play on simulators, not wifi" but some people (like me) prefer Wifi. But oh wait, can't exactly do legal hacks/infinite rare candy anymore! And since there's no auto-level 100 option... Then you just have to spend the time training everything up to level 100. Bitch, I have college, I don't have the fucking time for that! Breeding is easy now (got 5 flawless IVs on a Quick Feet Shroomish very quickly,) but I don't have the time to level up literally every Pokemon I breed to level 100.

-----

Anyway, I agree with norelationstojfk: Have both.

Simple: Let's imagine we have Level 50 OU and Level 100 OU. Both are essentially the same metagame except for the levels; there are some (incredibly minor) differences like in % damage, Speed tiers, and moves like Seismic Toss, while due to how the level capping works Level 1 sets no longer work (this wasn't that big of a deal anyway) but otherwise they're the same. People who want "the purest form of battling" and blah blah can play Level 100 OU. But people like me who want to use simulators to test teams to use on Wifi and who will probably be setting levels to 50 on Wifi, can play Level 50 OU. I don't see what the problem with implementing something like this is. Both groups are happy, discussion over.

 

[Lazyboy0337]

Simulators always functioned based off local battles, which include level 100 and six pokemon. Wifi rules could be an alternate metagame with level 50 and only three pokemon, but that's an entirely new style of battling.

 

[Tribute]

Also it finally came to me.

"We put wishmence w/ perf IVs on sims, its different"

We dont put unreleased hidden abilities on sims, its not.

Simulators always functioned based off local battles, which include level 100 and six pokemon. Wifi rules could be an alternate metagame with level 50 and only three pokemon, but that's an entirely new style of battling.

Wifi, and more importantly, spot battles, are 6 not 3

 

[Upstart]

We're not concerned about realism here, just what is actually possible. A Wish Chansey is a very unlikely scenario on Wifi but it's perfectly legal and commonly seen for simulator play.

This exactly, level 100 is far more likely than using a Dragonite with a move from pokemon xd.

On the first point, the relationship is only 'clear' to us because it was the de facto standard since battle simulation began. Seasoned veterans can tell you most of the important numbers (speed tiers, important hp cutoffs, general IV spreads to barely avoid a specific threat with a general pokemon, etc.), because they're familiar with them. Newer players clearly won't have the benefit of that familiarity. The formulas used to calculate the various stats we use work just as well with level 50s as they do with 100s, or 75s, or any other level we so desire. A formula being set specifically at level 100 won't make any more or any less sense than that same formula at level 50. This actually stands as a mild rebuttal of your claim, as the older players who already know the current system would be at an advantage over the newer players who have yet to attain familiarity with it. Having both sides become accustomed to a new cap, together, would be much more suitable to the doctrine you mentioned.

On the second point, you are absolutely correct. In fact, any level between (and inclusive of) 1 and 100 is possible. Even more truthfully, certain pokemon shouldn't exist at level 50 (Dragonite, Goodra, Mewtwo, etc.). However, in the trainer battles on X and Y, both teams get capped to level 50. And that definitely does not conflict with the mechanics of the game, as it -is- a mechanic of the game.

On the third point, what potential is lost by having the cap at 50? You've seen the minor, trifling differences above. Moves based on the users level lose a slight bit of power, most moves in general gain a slight increase in power, speed tiers get a bit more interesting, Dragon Rage becomes a move worth consideration in lower-tier play. Where in that does a single pokemon lose all competitive viability and not retain even the -potential- to earn a spot on a team? Scaling levels doesn't affect the base stats of the pokemon in question at all: they merely scale them to the same level. A level 50 Mewtwo will dominate amongst a field of level 50s just as much as a level 100 Mewtwo would dominate against a field of level 100s. It's just how level scaling works.

And on the fourth point, I'm not exactly sure how Smogon handles it. However, we at Showdown! have always been looking to recreate the authentic battle experiences as accurately as possible. I could regale you on hours I've spent Metronoming both in-game and on Showdown! to see how certain moves interacted when chained off of it. I can't say exactly how we're going to approach this, as plenty of people enjoy the current standard of the lv100 cap. However, from the view of those who want to perfectly emulate the battle experience, moving the cap to level 50 will be a desired change, as that is what people will be seeing when they battle each other in real life, and likely how any Nintendo-hosted competitive events for X/Y will be handled.

First Point: 4 Evs at level 100 equate to 1 point in a stat. Level 50 does not have an equivalent as 8 and 4 could both be the difference between a point depending on a base stat. IVs are inherently straight forward at level 100, add them to your stat. Thus level 100 is more straight forward.

Second Point: It is possible to have level 100 battles over wifi by changing the ruleset and having level 100 pokemon which are easy to obtain with in a few hours. Although breeding has been made significantly easier, the few hours to get to level 100 are significantly less than the hours required to breed six pokemon with 6 perfect IVs. Level 100 battles do not conflict with any in game mechanics and our possible on Wifi.

Third Point: 4% damage could be the difference between One hit and two hit knock outs. Speed stats as mentioned above become inherently more complicated and crucial. Although they appear trivial these changes inherently hinder the competition between pokemon.

Fourth Point: I will repeat this. This argument of adhering to cartridge mechanics is a perpetualized lie at Smogon backed by the unfounded argument of a slippery slope. Maybe we should stop calling PO, Shoddy, Pokelab, and PS simulators as they are totally different beasts all together. We simulate pokemon battles while implementing tiers, ratings, clauses, and bans none of which included in the game itself. As a battle simulator moves, move sets etc. must be maintained however we are not a wifi simulator. Wifi does not prevent me from using darkrai, wifi doesn't assume 31 ivs in every stat, the list goes on and on.

 

[Lazyboy0337]

Wifi, and more importantly, spot battles, are 6 not 3

Must be confusing it with random wifi. My bad.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

A random calc I remembered from the Landorus banning:
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 260-307 (39.87 - 47.08%) -- 39.45% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather

At level 50:
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 138-164 (41.69 - 49.54%) -- 82.03% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather

At a level 50 metagame, Landorus gets the 2HKO here twice as often. A 4% damage difference is very relevant in battling, please don't try to undermine it because thats just wrong.

On a different note, the damage difference is very important in teiring its self. Is something can more easily push its way through a Pokemon in level 50 as opposed to level 100, that is a very relevant to what is and is not banned in a metagame, especially considering with Power creep in later gens, many Pokemon rely on minuscule amounts of HP to prevent KOs on threats. We may be looking at effectively 2 slightly different meta as for what may and may not be banned.

 

[pokemonnerd]

This OP seems very biased to me. It was stated at the first page but I'm going to go a bit further.

As per Stellar:

I propose we auto-set all Pokémon in 6th-Gen Smogon metagame battles to Lv50.

Here are a few reasons why I believe we should make this shift. I will also briefly address counterarguments.

• There is no Lv100 option in XY battles: Heart Gold and Soul Silver were the last Pokémon games to support an auto-Lv100 option. Since then, cartridge players have had to rely on Action Replays to level their Pokémon to Lv100 for competitive play. We kept the auto-level 100 ruleset last generation, but is it really worth widening the gap between simulator and Wi-Fi players?

What gap exactly? There's absolutely no gap that exists between simulator and Wifi players, because the people who are dedicated enough to play on Wifi instead of simulators will use a simulator maybe once and then never touch it again. The only thing this could possibly affect that's actually relevant are VGC players, and we make separate tiers just for the event. You also didn't have to rely on action replays, you could just run through the elite four enough times.

• All cartridge and officially supported metagames are Lv50: As previously mentioned, all XY Wi-Fi battles will be at Lv50. You will never find two players who legitimately leveled all six of their Pokémon to Lv100 in order to fight each other. GBU and VGC already use the LV50 format; many players are already familiar with it.

Alright. That's great and all, but in Heart Gold / Soul silver people never legitimately leveled their pokemon to level 100 either because it auto leveled so they didn't even need to cheat to do that. Which makes your argument worthless. You also can't say that both players won't just level up to level 100 either.

• Getting competitive Pokémon in-game has never been easier

  : XY introduced a number of breeding mechanics changes and legendary Pokémon changes that make getting competitively viable Pokémon easier than ever. With the ease of access, many Smogon players will choose to play on cartridge in addition to playing on our simulators. It makes sense for us to lessen the gap between the two mediums and offer continuity. By doing so, we can allow players to transfer their knowledge directly from one medium to another.

Honestly this is your only real point not seemingly touched by bias, really. Though, I haven't met anyone who actually levels their pokemon past either 50 or when they evolve, simply because VGC is the only major reason to even use the games to play competitively.

There are two main counterarguments to this proposition: tradition and "simulators should remove all the hard work." To these two counterarguments, I say, "Why?" Is there really a need for us to continue the trend of Lv100 battles simply due to tradition? Previous generations have brought much more drastic changes to competitive play: the physical/special split, team preview, etc. As with each of these changes, people will eventually adapt to Lv50 play. Yes, you might have to learn new stats and EV/damage calculations might be a little different, but I think these minor inconveniences are worth it in order to further close the gap between modes of play. Regarding "simulators should remove all the hard work": in previous generations, cartridge players had access to Action Replays to simulate the ruleset of Smogon metagames—they could use Rare Candies to level their Pokémon to Lv100. This is no longer the case on the 3DS and in XY.

Again, you really can't assume that people won't just raise their pokemon to level 100 on the cartridges, although that point is moot since there's no reason to with simulators around. I really think you overestimate how many people seriously play on the actual consoles competitively when it's so much easier to just download a simulator and instantly have everything at your fingertips. Everyone I've ever met has dropped the idea of raising pokemon and battling seriously when I've shown them Pokemon Online and Pokemon Showdown.

Laziness on cartridge/console player's parts is not a solid reason at all to change something like this. We create separate tiers for both GBU and all of the VGC players who want to practice.

Even the majority of VGC players who know about simulators don't level up and breed their pokemon without testing on simulators first. That should speak volumes on how flawed your logic in this opening is.

We emulate what we can do on the cartridge, not the metagame that exists in wifi play on the consoles. At least, I thought that's what Smogon's policy was in a nutshell.

 

[Birkal]

Sorry for stepping in, but I just wanted to discourage any arguments that are founded on the idea that Lvl 50 versus Lvl 100 isn't that big of a deal. It's a huge deal, actually, as evidenced by this thread and its sister in Inside Scoop. Not because of the mathematical implications, but rather due to the philosophical implications. Don't downplay that as you mull over this debate, regardless of which side you happen to be on at this time.

 

[IcyMan28]

Leave it at 100. Smogon's goal isn't to have a metagame as close to wifi as possible, it's to stay true to the mechanics of the game (within reason) and construct a competitive environment deemed appropriate and desirable from them.

Lv 100 battles are both the most competitive and perfectly possible within the cartridges. If people want to play that metagame, they can put in the time to do so. If they don't want to, then they can play wifi. It seems pretty easy to me.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

So, assuming that the differences really are insignificant, this comes down to whether we want to simulate in-game mechanics or wifi mechanics. I think that following in-game mechanics fits our purpose better, but I can see the benefits of following wifi given that people who actually use wifi only want to deal with one metagame.

 

[Roadsigns]

I don't really care either way, but I lean towards level 50. I have played both level 50 and level 100 Singles 6v6, and really, the differences are so insignificant. Like really? A 4% increase in damage is just not worth whining over. It is true that there are distinct differences between Wifi and Simulator (i.e. you're unlikely to see perfect IVs on Wifi legitimately, though it is easier to get better IVs now,) but the way I see it, the pros of level 50 outweigh the cons. I see people claiming that "it doesn't take that long to get Pokemon up to level 100," but not everyone has a lot of time on their hands to get LOTS of Pokemon up to level 100, because I guarantee you, you'll want to use a variety of teams even on Wifi, and not just the same Pokemon each time. Don't forget you have to add on the time required to breed the Pokemon you want. Not everyone has the time to spend a few hours breeding just ONE Pokemon, then a few more hours to get them to level 100. Personally, I can set some time aside for breeding, but adding on time to get up to level 100 just isn't happening. I'll still spend some time, but I won't have to spend as much time.

I see everyone saying things like "we play on simulators, not wifi" but some people (like me) prefer Wifi. But oh wait, can't exactly do legal hacks/infinite rare candy anymore! And since there's no auto-level 100 option... Then you just have to spend the time training everything up to level 100. Bitch, I have college, I don't have the fucking time for that! Breeding is easy now (got 5 flawless IVs on a Quick Feet Shroomish very quickly,) but I don't have the time to level up literally every Pokemon I breed to level 100.

-----

Anyway, I agree with norelationstojfk: Have both.

Simple: Let's imagine we have Level 50 OU and Level 100 OU. Both are essentially the same metagame except for the levels; there are some (incredibly minor) differences like in % damage, Speed tiers, and moves like Seismic Toss, while due to how the level capping works Level 1 sets no longer work (this wasn't that big of a deal anyway) but otherwise they're the same. People who want "the purest form of battling" and blah blah can play Level 100 OU. But people like me who want to use simulators to test teams to use on Wifi and who will probably be setting levels to 50 on Wifi, can play Level 50 OU. I don't see what the problem with implementing something like this is. Both groups are happy, discussion over.

My biggest problem with this is that you're not even talking about the metagame and what makes a more competitive metagame, you're talking about what makes building teams on the cartridge more convenient for you.

But yeah, I guess having both really isn't an issue, although I'm sort've opposed to dividing the community over something so arbitrary. Sims are not cartridges and Smogon is not Nintendo.