Poll for our default simulator tiering level

[Nails]

Smogon's purpose has always been to simulate local battles. We allowed Rotom-A / Giratina-O / Shaymin-S in Gen IV (though the last two were ubers.)

The fact that wi-fi battles have an option to be scaled to level 50 shouldn't mean we're forced to play at level 50. Besides, scaling to level 50 prevents level 1 movesets from being used, and I'm a strong proponent that everything available to the player should be usable bar stuff we specifically block to avoid imbalance.

The option that would be used on sim play would be the same option used in VGC, which lowers pokemon over 50 to 50 but does not level them up if they are sub-50.

 

[Upstart]

Please, everyone be aware that these rules would not change level 1 move sets. Options exist in game to level every Pokemon above level 50 down and keep all others under level 50 at their level. This would be the option we'd be using.

Options exist to use open level as well. The argument is to use the auto level rule offered in wifi which prevents you from using level 1 pokemon.

 

[nyttyn]

full disclaimer - I voted lv 50, but this post is intended to be neutral

Right so i've had to sit and suffer through this entire stupid circle jerking thread just so I could make 100% sure I could get the opinion of both sides.

The pro-lv 100 side's argument basically boils down to: Why should we change the tradition? This is understandable, there has been a long rooted history on smogon of the lv 100 cap. However, it would be helpful if you guys could go more into why this would be an unberabale change, as right now pointing to dumb examples like Bold Wish Blissey (wtf is with your fetish for that) and random 3HKOs that are irrelevant since we don't even have a metagame yet isn't helping your cause. In addition, move away from from the elitist standpoint that the cartridge is 'not something we should be emulating,' as without the cartridge, we couldn't be here in the first place.

The pro-lv 50's side's argument basically boils down to: Why should we deviate from the cartridge? Understandable, again, since Smogon has traditionally attempted to hold itself as close to cartridge mechanics as possible, with very minor deviations. However, it would be helpful if you guys could stress the benefits of moving towards a lv-50 metagame, and in addition, move away from arguments that boil down to 'it's what i'm used to.' Also try to focus on the tradition argument - it is the main obstacle that still needs to be addressed, and I haven't really seen it addressed.



Also, guys seriously tone it the fuck down, this isn't even that big of a deal why are you getting all up in arms and bashing one another what the hell there's no need.

(ps can we please get over wish chansey it isn't even relevant anymore jesus christ the fetish for it is disturbing)

 

[Roadsigns]

Me - and I'm sure many others - would like to just have one tier, I mean would it really be nessecary to split every tier for a vote that was leaning towards keeping it how it's been? I don't think so.

I definitely agree with this.

 

[Vann Accessible]

Hey why don't we split the difference and cap it at level 75? Then everyone's happy! :D

*Runs away to avoid inbound hatred*

 

[G-Von]

Why fix something that isn't broken? Battling with lvl 100's has never been a problem in our competitive community and just because the game does not have a feature for it doesn't mean that the simulator shouldn't. I keep on seeing people bring up how VGC's level cap is 50, but that is a totally different type of metagame and honestly shouldn't be a viably acceptable case for why the level cap should be lvl 50.

 

[Sheddy61]

Personally, I don't see much reason to stay level 100. I mean, levels 50 and 100 are virtually identical with the exception of lower numbers, and 50 is closer to the Gamefreak standard. While some may argue about the presence of positive merit of staying within developer intent, it surely has no negative merit, and the average of positive and zero is still positive.

Of course, differences do exist, and I'd argue from my perspective that 50's unique qualities are worse than 100's. The effects of different EVs/IVs are much easier to calculate (presenting a lower skill floor, which is a good thing), and having a Substitute (mostly a tool of setup sweepers, etc) able to resist a Seismic Toss (a tool of stall exclusively) I would have as harder in order to enable more defensive playstyles. In addition, as people have calculated, in a level 50 system, milestones of ohko v 2hko, etc are much more easily hit. Of course, whether these changes are positive is up to popular opinion, and I'd argue the majority of players prefer an offensive metagame.

The question isn't "why", it's "why not".

 

[doughboy]

I've always understood that our rule set is be devised around Pokemon to be the "most optimized" they can be, and for local battles that optimazation occurs when a Pokemon reaches level 100 on top of having its IV's maximized, full movepool, etc.

In addition this does affect game play, especially speed tiers. No longer are speed tiers as simple as they are at level 100. IIRC, scarf abomasnow does not outspeed azelf (aka base 115's). It isn't as "symmetric" with 60 not outspending base 115's but base 61's. But iirc it is symmetric when you bump it up 10. This makes the learning curve a bit steeper.

 

[TheMantyke]

Options exist to use open level as well. The argument is to use the auto level rule offered in wifi which prevents you from using level 1 pokemon.

My mistake, forgive me for spreading misinformation.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

The question isn't "why", it's "why not".

No, the question is still "why." You need actual reasons to change the status quo, not just "well let's just do it because we can and it won't hurt anything."

By the way, if you want reasons why dropping to level 50 actually will hurt, I've laid out a couple in some of my earlier posts.

 

[Erico9001]

So the op states that there would be changes to the amount of damage dealt. I would like to understand these, so I'm running some damage calculations

This should be enough:

Hide

252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 121-144 (32.35 - 38.5%) -- 98.63% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 64-76 (33.33 - 39.58%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-
252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 169-200 (45.18 - 53.47%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 90-107 (46.87 - 55.72%) -- 71.88% chance to 2HKO
-
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 103-122 (27.54 - 32.62%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 55-66 (28.64 - 34.37%) -- 2.64% chance to 3HKO
-
92 Atk Life Orb Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Shuckle: 43-51 (17.62 - 20.9%) -- possible 7HKO

92 Atk Life Orb Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Shuckle: 22-27 (17.32 - 21.25%) -- possible 6HKO
-
(same venasaur set vs same shuckle)
Sludge Bomb: 12.7 - 14.75%

Sludge Bomb: 12.59 - 14.96%
-

220+ SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle: 66-78 (27.04 - 31.96%) -- possible 4HKO

220+ SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle: 34-42 (26.77 - 33.07%) -- possible 4HKO
-
0- Atk Kyurem Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 207-244 (66.55 - 78.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0- Atk Kyurem Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 108-127 (67.5 - 79.37%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In every scenario, the percent of life points taken from the defender was higher. Usually about 1% higher. So that's the difference..

I'm going to point a few things out.
1) The number of people that will switch to in-game competitive from our metagame is not understood. The number may not be as high as the op seems to feel it would be. We just don't know.
2) The suggestion persists around the idea that having level 50 Pokémon in the metagame would make people more comfortable to join us in the metagame. Gah, bullshit. We could also say that having level 50 in our metagame would make people who play here more comfortable with the in-game competetive, and more likely to leave. "Oh but Eric, people here aren't going to be convinced to go to the in-game just because they are both level 50. I mean, it won't really matter to them." - Yea, that's my point towards how it won't cause people to join metagame either. Especially since I've shown the difference is really only about 1%.
3) The effect we could feel from people switching to in-game competitive is far overstated. Keeping in mind what I said in 1 and 2, the dip in users we could see wouldn't have an effect on the metagame. Even if it was 1000 users less than it is now, history has shown that PS works great with even smaller numbers than that. If anything, less spam and lag. Of course, don't forget 1000 is a pretty high estimation..


I guess I'm saying no. It's sort of a waste of time, and the 1% hit that defending Pokémon take isn't a positive thing from my perspective. Though, I suppose I wouldn't be angry if it were implemented, since I cannot deny that I would not feel the 1% difference. I just want people to consider if this even is a significant issue or a significant solution to the issue before the coding takes place.

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

Basically it comes down to whether we want to emulate the in game meta or wifi meta. Personally I would go with the wifi meta because it'll be the most common that any x/y player would fight in which would help newer players plus the no auto 100 option. If we really cared about tradition we would only play gen 1. The damage and stat differences wouldn't be that hard to get used to when compared to all the new pokemon, mega evos, items, move changes, new moves, change in sleep mechanics, type changes, steel resist changes etc.

 

[Roadsigns]

Personally, I don't see much reason to stay level 100. I mean, levels 50 and 100 are virtually identical with the exception of lower numbers, and 50 is closer to the Gamefreak standard. While some may argue about the presence of positive merit of staying within developer intent, it surely has no negative merit, and the average of positive and zero is still positive.

Of course, differences do exist, and I'd argue from my perspective that 50's unique qualities are worse than 100's. The effects of different EVs/IVs are much easier to calculate (presenting a lower skill floor, which is a good thing), and having a Substitute (mostly a tool of setup sweepers, etc) able to resist a Seismic Toss (a tool of stall exclusively) I would have as harder in order to enable more defensive playstyles. In addition, as people have calculated, in a level 50 system, milestones of ohko v 2hko, etc are much more easily hit. Of course, whether these changes are positive is up to popular opinion, and I'd argue the majority of players prefer an offensive metagame.

The question isn't "why", it's "why not".

Actually, when the status quo is the thing in question, the question really is "why?"

See, it takes effort to change a thing, and unless there is a beneficial reason to make that change, then it probably should not be made. Now, I say that I don't think there is a beneficial reason because I think that the last thing we need after gen 5 is a more offensive metagame. I think it's less healthy for the diversity. You're right that is the thing that's really up for debate.

I really don't think staying true to dev's intent is an argument, considering that we stay true to their mechanics to the extent which we think is competitive. That doesn't mean that we have to stick to their ideals, and more importantly, their rules. That's what this debate is all about.

Do we need to follow the same rules as wifi players? The answer is no, because there is no reason for us to. It doesn't make the metagame more healthy, if you believe that moving away from hyper offense is more healthy for the metagame.

So...to all the people that are saying that the majority of arguments are based around "BUT IT'S LIKE THIS I DON'T LIKE CHANGE," I'd have to say that is just false. A lot of the arguments are based on pretty valid things. If there is not a good reason to put the effort into something to change the foundations of it, then there is no point.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Personally, I don't see much reason to stay level 100. I mean, levels 50 and 100 are virtually identical with the exception of lower numbers, and 50 is closer to the Gamefreak standard. While some may argue about the presence of positive merit of staying within developer intent, it surely has no negative merit, and the average of positive and zero is still positive.

Of course, differences do exist, and I'd argue from my perspective that 50's unique qualities are worse than 100's. The effects of different EVs/IVs are much easier to calculate (presenting a lower skill floor, which is a good thing), and having a Substitute (mostly a tool of setup sweepers, etc) able to resist a Seismic Toss (a tool of stall exclusively) I would have as harder in order to enable more defensive playstyles. In addition, as people have calculated, in a level 50 system, milestones of ohko v 2hko, etc are much more easily hit. Of course, whether these changes are positive is up to popular opinion, and I'd argue the majority of players prefer an offensive metagame.

The question isn't "why", it's "why not".

Ffs, i literally cant stand this kind of argument anymore. Listen, whatever the hell nintendo does with their metagames doesnt mean shit to us because we have our OWN set of rules and therefore our OWN separate metagame. Their lv 50 cap, lack of clauses and idiotic bans are part of their metagame that was built under a completely different mindset from smogon. Wifi battles still allow you to use lv 100 pokemons as long as youre not playing under nintendo rules. And thats what we do, we make our own rules based on our definition of balance. Theres absolutely zero reasons to put a lv 50 cap. If people want to play by gamefreak rules so bad then we could simply make a separate ladder for that.

 

[Metal Sonic]

we could simply make a separate ladder for that.

XY already is a separate ladder. I find that Level 50 is a viable thing and would put us closer to the Nintendo standards, as this is a simulator designed to replicate in-game conditions.

Especially with all the mechanics changes in XY, as compared to previous tiers(BW was already a stretch), I don't really see the problem with more change; especially when the difference is trivial but the symbolism large in providing a more sufficient metagame.

 

[PKMN1]

Ffs, i literally cant stand this kind of argument anymore. Listen, whatever the hell nintendo does with their metagames doesnt mean shit to us because we have our OWN set of rules and therefore our OWN separate metagame. Their lv 50 cap, lack of clauses and idiotic bans are part of their metagame that was built under a completely different mindset from smogon. Wifi battles still allow you to use lv 100 pokemons as long as youre not playing under nintendo rules. And thats what we do, we make our own rules based on our definition of balance. Theres absolutely zero reasons to put a lv 50 cap. If people want to play by gamefreak rules so bad then we could simply make a separate ladder for that.

I would like to point out the game is balanced toward their own meta-game, and that without them, this entire website would not exist. It is like saying that "we should ignore Konami because we disagree with them about what cards should be banned in Yu-gi-oh, lets completely ignore the fact they created the game, run basically all official tourneys, and most of the players listen to them and make our own banlist that is completely different from theirs." BTW, that has NEVER happened and is actually laughed at when said by basically all decent players, even the most elite who hate when their Broken decks get nerfed to oblivion or when decks people liked using and were balanced were hit.

 

[Halcyon.]

I would like to point out the game is balanced toward their own meta-game, and that without them, this entire website would not exist. It is like saying that "we should ignore Konami because we disagree with them about what cards should be banned in Yu-gi-oh, lets completely ignore the fact they created the game, run basically all official tourneys, and most of the players listen to them and make our own banlist that is completely different from theirs."

Um...that's EXACTLY what we do.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

XY already is a separate ladder. I find that Level 50 is a viable thing and would put us closer to the Nintendo standards, as this is a simulator designed to replicate in-game conditions.

Especially with all the mechanics changes in XY, as compared to previous tiers(BW was already a stretch), I don't really see the problem with more change; especially when the difference is trivial but the symbolism large in providing a more sufficient metagame.

Forgive me, but I'd rather not have an across the board power creep, more complicated EV system, and change to speed tiers just for symbolism and adherence to some "Nintendo standards" that we tend to ignore in the first place.

Also, even with a level 100 rule, the simulator still replicates in-game conditions. The level 50 cap is optional on Wi-Fi (unless you're doing Random Matchups or something which, IIRC, is 3-on-3 and therefore isn't even the same setup as Smogon singles). You can still play against other players with level 100 teams.

 

[PKMN1]

Um...that's EXACTLY what we do.

Yup, and now the divide is even bigger, to the extent, the Smogon meta-game and website is becoming semi-worthless to anyone who actually plays outside the simulator and/or the smogon forums. You can say that all you want but realise new players who come here, actually come here for help with the actual game, not you own meta. It would also be a good idea to change the websites slogan and about page, since they are SLOWLY starting to cater only to those who follow the Smogon rules and Meta, and not to the casual player who came here for help to ask about how to beat his friend in Wi-fi.

It is one thing to have a banlist (uber tier) and a standard set of common courtesy rules (evasion and sleep clause for example) but having a COMPLETELY different set-up to what the game is going toward seems sort going against the purpose of balancing the game in the first place.

 

[Colonel M]

Level 100, definitely.

First, leveling through this game is snoringly easy. I mean, with the broken EXP All... I mean Share it really is not that difficult to raise your Pokemon to Level 100. Honestly, I kind of find the arguments to keeping the levels at 50 sort of... flimsy anyway. Maybe Generation 5 I would've agreed, but Generation 6 is so easy to powerlevel it barely matters. Nevermind your team can practically hit Level 70 by the Elite Four. I barely put much effort into the game and my Pokemon are almost Level 80. If you were dead worried about leveling them to 100, there are so many loopholes to solve that anyway.

Secondly, a lot of people don't realize that going from Level 100 to Level 50 brings drastic changes -- namely EV and Speed tiers. IIRC, base 60s are able to outspeed 115s after +1 Speed and such. There's others definitely, but that's just one off the top of my head.

Besides, do we really care that much about using an Action Replay for more rare candies or even that VGC uses Level 50s as their main "meta"? I certainly don't think many people really care about it either way. Hell, if you want divvy up the tiers to Level 50 and Level 100. It satisfies both parties and I'm sure no one is really going to interject both existing.

But I will warn that 9 out of 10 people will likely argue Level 100 to be the primary meta regardless.

 

[Erico9001]

Ffs, i literally cant stand

Get this guy a wheelchair

 

[Non-Guest 31415]

It is like saying that "we should ignore Konami because we disagree with them about what cards should be banned in Yu-gi-oh, lets completely ignore the fact they created the game, run basically all official tourneys, and most of the players listen to them and make our own banlist that is completely different from theirs."

Do you know what Smogon does? We ignore Game Freak because we disagree with them about what Pokemon should be banned, and we completely ignore the fact that they created the game, that they run all official tourneys, and that most of the players listen to them, and we make our own banlist that is completely different from theirs.

If you think Lv. 50 vs. Lv. 100 is the only way that Smogon metagames are different than official metagames, then to quote what's possibly a typo from Xerosic, you've got another think coming.

No opinion either way; just think that using this argument as a defense for Lv. 50 is rather ridiculous.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

XY already is a separate ladder. I find that Level 50 is a viable thing and would put us closer to the Nintendo standards, as this is a simulator designed to replicate in-game conditions.

Especially with all the mechanics changes in XY, as compared to previous tiers(BW was already a stretch), I don't really see the problem with more change; especially when the difference is trivial but the symbolism large in providing a more sufficient metagame.

Their rules are NOT ingame conditions. They are exclusively for their metagames. We are not simulating their metagames, we are creating our own. Its the same game, with completly different rules. It has always been like that, the entire reason we exist. We are balancing a very unbalanced game, under a completely different mindset than the original devs. They do their stuff, we do our own. Its still pokemon, just different ways to make rules.

Yup, and now the divide is even bigger, to the extent, the Smogon meta-game and website is becoming semi-worthless to anyone who actually plays outside the simulator and/or the smogon forums. You can say that all you want but realise new players who come here, actually come here for help with the actual game, not you own meta.

Theres no ''bigger divide''. If you want to play matches with random people following nintendo's rules, then play the game. If you dont like their rule set, then join a fan community like this one. If you like both then play both. This is a ridiculous simple concept that everyone is trying to make look complicated, when in fact it is not.

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

Why would we want to unnecessarily divide nintendo's format (the official!) and ours even more?

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Yup, and now the divide is even bigger, to the extent, the Smogon meta-game and website is becoming semi-worthless to anyone who actually plays outside the simulator and/or the smogon forums. You can say that all you want but realise new players who come here, actually come here for help with the actual game, not you own meta. It would also be a good idea to change the websites slogan and about page, since they are SLOWLY starting to cater only to those who follow the Smogon rules and Meta, and not to the casual player who came here for help to ask about how to beat his friend in Wi-fi.

If people come to Smogon for help with a non-Smogon metagame, they came to the wrong place. We don't need to change the way we play our metagames to accommodate for people who play don't even play with our metagames and simulators to begin with.

Why would we want to unnecessarily divide nintendo's format (the official!) and ours even more?

Because they are two different metagames catering to two different communities of players. Nintendo does not constantly adjust their banlist to rid their metagames of broken threats. They just come up with a general banlist based on certain criteria (mainly the legendary status of the Pokemon and whether it is obtainable yet or not) and leave it that way.