Other Item Clause

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I think the two sides are:
For Clauses: Spices up the current meta and stops every battle being predictable
Against Clauses: Stops my preferred choice of team building being easy mode.
I think gun against my head I would say, don't fix what aint broke, but then again I would not boycott smogon rules if there was a limit, it just means I have to rethink my own and my opponents strategies.
if anything I do not see item clause changing stall vs offence, but more stall vs weather and stall vs stall

I mostly run hyper offensive so non repeating items do not effect me AT ALL as with how I like to build teams I could just change a scarf to a band or a spec and I do not often run more than 1 with life orb. However I do not think without all leftovers stops stall teams, I mean you set up some traps and if I have no spinners pokemon like aeigislash is going to force me to switch out a few times if I accidentally hit kings shield, and taking advantage of me being moved locked also works in your favour; which would mean offensive teams might need to start using hazards and spinners more often, especially with sticky web.
 
I like the idea of this :) While I understand that it might not be essential to run in the standard OU metagame, I think having another ladder with a singles Item Clause would be nice. It does force you to rethink lots of Pokemon choices and it's an interesting way to play :3
If this actually got enough support like the Dream World Tier did last generation, then why not? Put up the tier, and let people flock to what they like more.
 
Competitive battlers want to win. Whether there is an Item Clause or not, people are still going to want to win. That's why were at a competitive battling site, to strengthen our chances of winning. Without an item clause, players have found ways to (roughly) abuse the system and find sure-fire and mainstream ways of winning. The same will happen if there is an item clause, as it would only be a matter of time. As stated previously, the clause would only hurt the metagame by derailing pure stall teams. If you want to play without an Item Clause, welcome to Smogon. If you want the Item Clause, play X and Y.

Also, why impliment an item clause now? Besides personal preference, there is no real reason to do so. The only "Uber" item is the Mega Orb, which has technically been subjected to the item clause.
 
I still have a few more pages of this nonsense thread to read, but I feel I need to reiterate a point that the "pro-clause" side keeps ignoring.

We only make clauses and bans because they are necessary to the game, each of the clauses take 1HKO for example, stop an 'uncompetitive' strategy, while bans keep out 'broken' Pokemon. In order for a clause of ban to exist it must has sufficient reason for doing so. And keep in mind you not everyone agree with these bans and clauses, if they don't feel like there is sufficient reason for them.

With this you are essentially asking us to make a clauses willy-nilly for um.... yeah I haven't quite pinned that down. No seriously, so far in this thread I have yet to see any real reason for a clause as how it will effect the meta positively with this restriction, and until I do, I remain utterly unconvinced.

To me, this is kind of like making up a law that restricts people from owning cats because it would make you feel happy or something. You don't make up rules for something without sufficient reason.
 
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I don't think this will force more variety into the game. It makes team building more of a hassle and promotes people into copying teams rather than making their own. I would also argue that it makes the game more predictable as you know your opponent will only have 1 pokemon with Choice Scarf etc.

If you like the idea, nothing stops you from self imposing the item clause to yourself. Only if you want to force other players to do the same should you support a globally enforced item clause.
 
Well sure with clause you could still use leftovers on him, but then you think of what synergies work with that, does not stop him being viable because the other 5 cannot use the same item.
Of course, but still, many Pokemon who synergy very well with Heatran like to use lefties. Many bulky-Waters (Jellicent, BulkyStarmie etc...) enjoy Lefties, so you will more often than not choose a Dragon (Lati@s ?). That's why I don't like the Item Clause : it restricts me in very usual situations, while I'd prefer to have freedom to focus on more important matters (my Keldeo counter, my Dragon-check etc...).

Why not mega blastoise? can rapid spin, use pulse moves, has good def.
Well, I completely forgot about him. Mega Blastoise still lack double-lefties, but my post was more directed towards Gen 5 (because given the new items, if Item Clause is enforced here, it might as well be enforced for Gen 5).

I feel like Item Clause is kind of those special rules in Fire Emblem Drafts (for example), like "Sword-only" or "No-prepromotes". Of course, they are balanced on their own, even though they change the way the game is played. But those are still restrictions which hinder how one will play the game. One may think it helps to think outside of the box, but it's still only gimmicky, and no one thinks it could be the standard way to play.
Long story short, it's like playing chess without promotions for pawns and castlings.
 
I think the two sides are:
For Clauses: Spices up the current meta and stops every battle being predictable
Against Clauses: Stops my preferred choice of team building being easy mode.
I think gun against my head I would say, don't fix what aint broke, but then again I would not boycott smogon rules if there was a limit, it just means I have to rethink my own and my opponents strategies.
if anything I do not see item clause changing stall vs offence, but more stall vs weather and stall vs stall

I mostly run hyper offensive so non repeating items do not effect me AT ALL as with how I like to build teams I could just change a scarf to a band or a spec and I do not often run more than 1 with life orb. However I do not think without all leftovers stops stall teams, I mean you set up some traps and if I have no spinners pokemon like aeigislash is going to force me to switch out a few times if I accidentally hit kings shield, and taking advantage of me being moved locked also works in your favour; which would mean offensive teams might need to start using hazards and spinners more often, especially with sticky web.
Wow, aside from that you completely ignore all arguments against the clause and instead you set up a strawman-argument that not even a single person in this thread stated, it's especially hilarious that a Hyper-Offense-Player makes fun of other teams being easy mode. Sure, Hyper-Offense is fun now and then, but it's by far the easiest way of team building.

Well anyway, I also see no problem with a separate OM with Item Clause, given that you find enough supporters.
 
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Wow, I shouldn't have gone to bed as the discussion kept going through the whole night! It seems like both sides are getting a tad repetitive though and it is coming down to simple personal preference over anything. Trying to make smogon tiers more like the official game feels a bit like trying to convert a protestant nation into a catholic one (with less mass executions I would hope.)

It's really unfair to claim that bulky offence would be the be all and end all of teams if item clause is in effect. It's really making a few too many presumptions. The arguments in that thread that being forced to use a "worse" pokemon to fill particular niche with examples being made of Primeape in ubers is really silly. If anything, having a unique Pokemon in your team as part of an effective overall team strategy is only a good thing for the metagame and if it does its job, it shouldn't be referred to as being "crappy" in the first place. It feels almost like some of the people against item clause are imagining that they are battling against people without item clause on, in that they'll be disadvantaged in some way. If this DOES hurt stall (I believe stall will change to suit the new meta, rather than dying completely) all that does is open up options for other types of teams, maybe even types of team we have never seen before.

Maybe next gen we'll be given some awesome stalling items and we'll have to look at this again. It's been great fun discussing this with you guys!

(and guys why are we playing singles and not doubles; so many items, abilities, moves and Pokemon are rendered useless in singles.)
 
I applaud you for your attempt to diversify the metagame, amplafied. But as you no doubt realize by now, it's a no-go. Most of the people who stick around long-term on Smogon do so because they love Smogon's 6v6 metagames. In general, they hate change and will spew that hatred at you if you try to touch their precious metagames. Heck, you probably saw all the hate in the thread that suggested moving to Level 50, and that would have changed essentially nothing.

My advice is to just play Nintendo's 3v3 Singles, 4v4 Doubles, etc. That's what I do. If enough people on the site start talking about those metas, perhaps they'll achieve more prominence here.
 
I applaud the anti-Item Clause group for your attempt to convince the pro-Item Clause group that the clause solves nothing and doesn't actually diversify the metagame. But as you no doubt realize by now, it's a no-go. Most of the people who suggest these sorts of things do so because they love Nintendo's 3v3 and 4v4 metagames. In general, they hate anything that isn't Nintendo (including Smogon) and will spew that hatred at you if you try to do anything that differs from their precious "official" rulesets. Heck, you probably saw all the hate in the thread that suggested moving to level 50, and that would have helped with essentially nothing.

My advice is just to play Smogon's 6v6 Singles, 6v6 Doubles, etc. That's what I do. If enough people outside of this site start playing these metas, perhaps they'll stop getting so much flak from non-Smogon players.
 
I applaud the anti-Item Clause group for your attempt to convince the pro-Item Clause group that the clause solves nothing and doesn't actually diversify the metagame. But as you no doubt realize by now, it's a no-go. Most of the people who suggest these sorts of things do so because they love Nintendo's 3v3 and 4v4 metagames. In general, they hate anything that isn't Nintendo (including Smogon) and will spew that hatred at you if you try to do anything that differs from their precious "official" rulesets. Heck, you probably saw all the hate in the thread that suggested moving to level 50, and that would have helped with essentially nothing.

My advice is just to play Smogon's 6v6 Singles, 6v6 Doubles, etc. That's what I do. If enough people outside of this site start playing these metas, perhaps they'll stop getting so much flak from non-Smogon players.
Yes, thank you for illustrating my point. :D
 
Yep, because pushing off the other side as a bunch of haters is a fantastic way of addressing their arguments.
I don't feel the need to address the arguments. I have no evidence that adding an Item Clause would improve Smogon's metagames. Why would I argue that it would? The OP is better off sticking to Nintendo's rulesets rather than trying to change Smogon's. Isn't that the case?

As for calling people haters, they are. It's amazing the level of vitriol that explodes whenever someone suggests changing a rule to be more like Nintendo's. Do you think I'm wrong about that?
 
As for calling people haters, they are. It's amazing the level of vitriol that explodes whenever someone suggests changing a rule to be more like Nintendo's. Do you think I'm wrong about that?
Yep. I have seen what you might call "hating" from only a few members in these threads, and half of them are on the anti-Smogon side (PKMN1 referred to Smogon as a "joke," for goodness sakes). Sure you might find a member being mean because they don't want Smogon's system to change. I can also find members being mean because they love Nintendo's system and don't want any change from those. Besides, the actual legitimate arguments for these changes have been met with real discussion and civility. The only arguments that have been attacked with what you might refer to as "hate" are those along the lines of "we should change so that we can be more like Nintendo," and that's mainly because such arguments make little sense. Smogon is not Nintendo, Nintendo is not Smogon. They are two different authorities with different metagame systems aimed at two different audiences. It's a bit rude for someone to come in an suggest we make changes to assimilate to a system that doesn't even target the same community of players that ours does.

So yeah, let's leave out the ad hominem and "haters" rhetoric, shall we?
 
Yep, because pushing off the other side as a bunch of haters is a fantastic way of addressing their arguments.
I wish people didn't cry "HATER" but what can you do?

Long story short, it's like playing chess without promotions for pawns and castlings.
I've never gotten a critical hit in chess. Pokemon isn't a game played professionally to that kind of level and why bother, you could lose out just by getting unlucky. I see item clause as something which gives your pawns different attributes rather than them being the same old pawns we've known and used forever.
 
I don't want to sound close-minded, but this isn't a good idea. Clauses are implemented to fix problems that cause the game to be broken. This clause might make the metagame more interesting, while simultaneously adding problems that weren't there before.

If it isn't broken, don't fix it. That's always been the motto, no reason to make an exception now.
 
I tried reading through this thread, and I've noticed a few problems that I'd like to point out with some of the arguments I've seen from the pro-clause side, as well as some issues that they haven't been addressing properly:

1) VGC and Smogon have very different metagames, mostly because of the nature of singles vs doubles. Both are skill intensive, but take different kinds of skill. You cannot compare their rules the same way since they are so fundamentally different. An example is how bad entry hazards are in VGC because of how little switching there is, but in singles 6v6, they're really good.

2) "Creativity" still exists without extra clauses. Adding an item clause is only adding the illusion of creativity. Just because you're forced to use more options doesn't mean that they're fun. If I like playing a more defensive team, but the Pokemon I want to use need more sustainability through Leftovers, I can't play them. And the VGC meta in gen 5 was more stale than the 6v6 singles meta because it was forced to use one type of playstyle; I don't see how item clause helped creativity at all. If anything, it was fairly inconsequential. When you only have 3 or 4 pokemon on your team, only having one Leftovers and one choice scarf isn't an issue, because you don't have 3 other pokemon who want that same item. In 6v6, you have more than one wall and more than one pokemon who would benefit a lot from a choice scarf. What do you do with those other 3 pokemon? They're likely not going to get the kills they need because they'll lack power and/or speed. They become free fodder for your opponent, and then you may as well have only been running 3 pokemon total from the start.

3) I'm assuming most of you are fairly young (meaning under 18) and don't understand logistics properly because you've never run events. VGC has item clause to inhibit stall as a playstyle because they're trying to run large events with a lot of people. If ANYONE there is playing stall, the ENTIRE EVENT gets delayed because they'd need to wait for that one player's match to finish before they can create the next bracket. Its so everything can go smoothly on the administrative level.

4) No one wants to be told how to play the game. Both metagames have their place. Don't try to mix them together for everyone. I like being competitive in singles 6v6, and I have fun being serious about it. I'm not the only one who feels that way. I like Smogons system of "Innocent until proven guilty" instead of "guilty until proven innocent". That and their tiering system exists to promote the very creativity that you claim that it lacks. If you're only looking at OU, you're not looking deep enough. There's a clear difference in power between Ampharos and Jolteon, who are both supposed to play similar roles on a team. Numerically, there is no reason (outside of mega evos of course) to use Ampharos over Jolteon. Smogon created a system where you can play Ampharos and it'll actually work without it being outclassed so wildly.

5) The argument of "The way the game was meant to be played" is incredibly weak and has no actual meaning. That's so incredibly subjective and fundamentally flawed that I could probably write an entire essay on this one line alone and how its about as useless as Double-edge Shedinja. It will not strengthen your position, so stop using it. People only resort to this argument when they can't address the other party's points and have nothing to say.
 
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I think it would at least be interesting to try it as a side tier, to at least attempt to see what would fully happen in all regards. Will it fully work? Maybe not, however, I think it's worth the attempt.
 
Is there an item clause on WiFi battles?
On random Wi-Fi battles, yes. But you can turn it off when playing against someone on your friends/acquaintances list. Conveniently, turning it off also lets you use all 6 Pokémon in your party, although Team Preview remains on. It also turns off Species Clause, however. Just FYI.
 
It's extremely rare that I see a thread like this where I can't help but disagree with the side I'm on. I don't believe there should be an item clause but I say that out of personal preference. I don't believe it's either a superior choice, nor the most simplistic. In my eyes, the current way Smogon plays is nowhere near the simplest, nor the "best". It's very apparent that this way of playing is not what most people will play, nor what TPCi wish to be most commonly played. For example:

Smogon plays at level 100 or less. Wifi enforces level 50.
Smogon plays with a ban list (or many, depending on tiers) designed around usage. Wifi enforces only non-specials.
Smogon allows multiple items. Wifi enforces item clause.

These are just the major differences. There's no use saying "it will kill x playstyle" or "it will make the game more varied" because frankly, there's no way to know. The game played here is vastly different to what the majority of people will play in game. This is akin to trying to tier pokémon before anyone has used them in ten dozen battles; it's mindless speculation. Many of the arguments being put forth show little to no understanding of why things are done in the way they are, with many clearly just not wanting to change. You cannot say the item clause doesn't stifle a small amount of creativity, because it does - many stalling concepts rely on passive recovery from items. Likewise, it's foolish to say the lack of item clause allows more pokémon to be used - that's highly unlikely and there's no evidence to back it up; if VGC has taught me anything it's that people will adapt to clauses and if I'm honest, VGC is incredibly diverse.

Ultimately, the game is like this because this is the way we choose to play. That's it. There's nothing else to it. We cannot say a player at the top of the Smogon ladder is better than one topping wifi tournaments in singles - the differences make it almost totally incomparable. It's not extra diversity, it's not more simplistic (in fact, it's probably far easier to just adhere strictly to wifi rules as then everyone is playing the same thing) and it is absolutely not for the sake of trying to create the "best" metagame possible - to think that is to be exceedingly naïve. Instead, the game is like this because the majority of people here have chosen to play in a slightly more restricted way, how Smogon plays (and yes, I would definitely say the restrictions on OHKO moves, evasion, the pokémon clause, ability bans, tiering, etc is more restrictive than wifi has ever been), not out of some great scheme or attempt to create the greatest variety, but merely to have fun and try to inject some semblance of balance into a game. That's it really - every single thing which has been banned has been for the sake of balancing a game. To do so, the restrictions are added onto a list. I won't even begin to get into the level debate, but honestly it's almost irrelevant in terms of balance and changing now would only serve to invalidate many previous calculations. Let's not pretend otherwise - Dialga isn't banned because someone found it ugly, Giratina wasn't banned for the sake of making people change teams for the sake of it - it's in the name of balance. Now, we can argue to dawn whether this has been successful, but it begs the following.

All bans have so far been made either due to balance or lack of attainability. Why then would we want to enact something which will have inconsequential effects on balance when that's never been done before?

So that's my view. Were Smogon to change its purpose and instead try to emulate TPCi's battling form, then yes, an item clause should be considered. However, it hasn't so far changed due to wifi changes, so why begin now? It seems pointless. I'd like to see a vote on whether people would play in a separate singles tier with an item clause, but to enact one on all battles just for the sake of it seems somewhat redundant.


That said, whilst I'm here I'd like to address qsumbreon's points on VGC, because they bug me. In no way should item clause use be decided due to any VGC evidence anyway as it's doubles not singles, but this needs to be addressed as it's almost entirely wrong.

1) It depends on what you mean by less switching if I'm honest. In many games, especially higher level play, switching is utterly crucial in VGC and it's not unusual to see more switching per turn than singles. Entry hazards are poor as there's no way to set them up in a way that inflicts a lot of damage unlike singles, and uses up a valuable slot in a game where you only get 4 to begin with. Now, it's never going to be the case that it'll rival a stall team in singles, but the general idea that VGC has little switching is at best incorrect and at worst harmful to new players in the tier. Realistically, the only time there's not much switching is when one person is playing a hyper offensive team.

2) Never have I read a point that misjudged VGC so badly. VGC if anything was far more varied than OU at the end of gen V and cannot possibly be reasonably described as stale. This is the same meta that had the UK champion almost win UK nationals with a Gary themed team; had hail, trick room and tailwind as a viable team basing and where EV spreads were incredibly varied (224 HP / 72 Def / 136 SAtk / 76 SDef / 4 Spe Cress, 40 HP / 48 Def / 128 SAtk / 104 SDef / 188 Spd Thundurus, 252 HP / 116 Atk / 4 Def / 136 SpDef Metagross to name a few). You would never see those things in top end singles teams unless they were commanded by a very stubborn, high level player - they just don't function very well in singles. Likewise, spreads which help bulk are, on the whole, worthless in singles where most battles depend on X entry hazards doing flat damage and hitting first can neuter all opposition, which isn't the case in doubles where the partnered pokémon can strike and multi-targeting moves exist. I can only assume you didn't play it much honestly, or assumed that variety only comes from the pokémon used (though I'm fairly sure there's also more different pokémon used as well) and not also sets, spreads and team types.

3) VGC doesn't have item clause to inhibit stall, it has it because every single format TPCi has ever run has had item clause. Indeed, stall is alive and well in VGCs, with one of the top players going so far as to RNG shinies only so that the extra frames of animation counted down the clock a little bit to enable a stalled win on time. Whenever a system has timed battles, you will see stall - VGC is no exception, especially with no evasion clause and protect being on many things. Just because the end game for stall isn't killing everything doesn't mean it is absent. Again, I can only assume you didn't play much as if you had, you'd both know how long VGC events go on for and that the timer is in all battles to prevent overrunning massively. This has nothing to do with the item clause choice.
 
I3) I'm assuming most of you are fairly young (meaning under 18) and don't understand logistics properly because you've never run events. VGC has item clause to inhibit stall as a playstyle because they're trying to run large events with a lot of people. If ANYONE there is playing stall, the ENTIRE EVENT gets delayed because they'd need to wait for that one player's match to finish before they can create the next bracket. Its so everything can go smoothly on the administrative level.
not entirely. you're missing another important section, wherein VGCs operate on a far more spectator-friendly level than smogon does. it's why they run doubles to begin with, stalling isn't impossible, but it's definitely harder than in a plain old singles. they want players to be more aggressive, generally most spectator-friendly games want this, it's why you have shot clocks in basketball, because they don't want players playing lame, they want things to happen, regardless of if playing lame is strategic or not

(not directly arguing against you; I doubt I have much of a comfortable place in this argument, but being spectator-friendly IS kind of important to them)
 
Ultimately, the game is like this because this is the way we choose to play. That's it. There's nothing else to it. We cannot say a player at the top of the Smogon ladder is better than one topping wifi tournaments in singles - the differences make it almost totally incomparable. It's not extra diversity, it's not more simplistic (in fact, it's probably far easier to just adhere strictly to wifi rules as then everyone is playing the same thing) and it is absolutely not for the sake of trying to create the "best" metagame possible - to think that is to be exceedingly naïve.
This is my favorite part of an overall excellent post.

1) It depends on what you mean by less switching if I'm honest. In many games, especially higher level play, switching is utterly crucial in VGC and it's not unusual to see more switching per turn than singles. Entry hazards are poor as there's no way to set them up in a way that inflicts a lot of damage unlike singles, and uses up a valuable slot in a game where you only get 4 to begin with. Now, it's never going to be the case that it'll rival a stall team in singles, but the general idea that VGC has little switching is at best incorrect and at worst harmful to new players in the tier. Realistically, the only time there's not much switching is when one person is playing a hyper offensive team.
I blame myself for this, partly. When I wrote the Double Battle Primer back in 4th gen, I hammered too hard on the idea that Doubles has less switching than Singles. I still believe there's less overall, but not nearly to the degree that some people now think. My main point was that you have to consider the implications of your switches more carefully. I've been wrecked by Intimidate/Escape Button/priority attack Hitmontops in 5th gen, so I know that switching is still a key part of Doubles.
 

Vryheid

fudge jelly
Of course there is item clause in frigging 3v3 random wi-fi battles. You know why? Because hazards are rarely used in that environment, meaning it's a breeze for focus sash sweepers to set up over and over again. Every single battle would come down to groups of sash sweepers if it weren't for the item clause. The 6v6 battles on Smogon don't need the clause because the extra Pokemon available means that having a dedicated hazard user is not particularly detrimental to a team, and it's much easier to switch in to sweepers as well.

I like being able to have a team stuck with multiple Leftovers if I want a bulky stall team, or multiple Choice Scarfs for some extra revenge killing/u-turning power. Being able to run multiple copies of the same item allows me to push my team to the limit in ways which I could not do if I was limited to single copies of each item. It also keeps matches much more exciting and unpredictable because you cannot figure out what item an opponent's Pokemon is using ahead of time simply through process of elimination. So if were talking about adding "variety" to the game, we NEED to keep out the item clause. If people want a separate metagame for it that's fine, but there's no reason to bring it into standard OU and plenty of reasons why it should be kept out.
 
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