Knock Off

[Raseri]

So we all know Knock Off got a huge buff this gen, increased from 20 BP to 65 BP. Which is a huge increase in power, enough to make it a legitimate coverage option on every Pokemon that gets it. With all the Eviolite's in LC, being able to remove them will be amazing, expect to see every Mienfoo running this now.

Notable users:

Mienfoo
Croagunk
Timburr
Scraggy
Tirtouga
Ledyba
Archen
Vullaby
Tentacool
Pawniard

There's probably more that can use it well, but I bet these will be the main users (i don't know what gen 6 mons get it).

How will Knock Off affect LC? Will Knock Off be an important move? What will change in LC to account for Knock Off?

discuss; I can't wait to see what discussion comes out of this!

 

[Shiruba]

the age of hyper-offence is upon us!
no, but seriously, items are so ridiculously important, particularly in the eviolite-filled little cup. relying on eviolite bulk was never the most reliable strategy, but not everything carried knockoff. with such a huge buff, it'll be so much more common, and eviolite will be much less appealing unless you happen to have sticky hold. yeah, you can knock off life orbs and choice items, too, but the eviolite is, imo, more important [ridiculously so] to scavenge some defence, at least it was in last gen's lc. seeing as it'll be everywhere, i can see strong ghosts and psychics like misdreavus and abra not liking this at all. meanwhile, mienfoo absolutely loves this, and will be absolutely amazing, with nice power, a resistance to this move, a scouting move in u-turn... man. it was great last gen, but it'll be a monster now.

perhaps more "transient" items will become more popular now: consumable ones, like gems and berries, most notably oran. that way, you can still benefit from an item while not having the potentially increased power against due to holding one [apparently it increases to like 93.5 or something if you're holding an item?]

maybe some pokemon will find it more beneficial to not hold an item at all?

 

[michael]

i dunno about the mienfoo craze honestly, given how much it itself relies upon eviolite. without evio it's pretty mediocre defensively. if knock off gets spammed as much as it's theorymonned to be (note that pokemon like scraggy and tirt that foo used to check easily get buffed knock off), it's going to be pretty easy to lose all of that bulk.

scraggy looks pretty promising with knock off, perhaps using a (gimmicky) moveset of DD + HJK + KO + poison jab or some filler to hit snubbull and co. with that, it basically removes its defensive checks on the switch-in. of course you still will have stuff like scarf murkow and gligar and yanma but those can't switch in on scraggy at all so you still have the advantage. poison jab hits the annoying new fairies as well as tangela and shroomish. foonguss still sort of checks you but whatever. 14 speed isn't particularly great when sneasel outspeeds even at +1 and does a ton with low kick or brick break or whatever fighting type move it uses but it's pretty workable since no offensive checks can easily switch in on you.

utility archen with knock off and rock slide and some combination of acrobatics, stealth rock, roost, u-turn, and rock polish looks pretty neat now. hard walls mixkrow barring hax (!) and can checkmate yanma with SR + rock stab forcing it to take pretty big damage. unlike foo it's not really switching into any pokemon that get/use knock off so it can keep its eviolite for a while which is pretty key.

also my baby croagunk is still a top counter/check to scraggy but now gets super knock off which is excellent. poison stab is really nice to hit fairies with; maybe a moveset like drain punch + sucker punch + poison jab + knock off could be cool? i used to hype hp psychic in the last slot a bit but poison jab > hp psychic and knock off > shadow ball might be the way to go now. sadly losing eviolite really hurts for croagunk. however, a lo set with fairly powerful priority (for a 40 bp stab at least) is pretty cool. it'd be able to check sneasel, mienfoo, tirtouga, scraggy, etc. fairly nicely.

The foe's Sneasel used Knock Off!
Binacle lost 50% of its health!
The foe's Sneasel knocked off Binacle's Eviolite!

The foe's Sneasel used Knock Off!
Binacle lost 50% of its health!

blarajan: damn lmao
blarajan: i 2hkoed a pokemon
blarajan: with knock off

The foe's Sneasel used Knock Off!
A critical hit! Froakie lost 100% of its health!

The foe's Sneasel used Knock Off!
It's super effective! Honedge lost 57.1% of its health!

i think it's safe to say fuck sneasel

 

[cxinlee]

think the most major thing I can think of is that Misdreavus and Ghosts may no longer be a good check to Scarf Mienfoo (bulky sets can run Payback). I can see that in gen 6 ScarFoo can now run it over Stone Edge (Which only hits larvesta) so it’s no longer being afraid of Misdreavus.

Secondly Timburr can run Knock Off over Payback to beat slower mons that would otherwise wall it like Frillish and Slowpoke (at +1 it 2hkoes), and so I can see Timburr becoming harder to counter.

 

[leingodf8]

And thus bulky ghost and psychic types died and were forever mourned. So long sweet frilish, dear slowpoke. And so to did Grimer ascend to great hights as one of the few viable eviolite users in the generation. (actually... it has decent stats... and beats those new fairy types... and gunk shot even got a boost to stone edge level accuracy... I'm not saying main staple but...)

In all seriousness, any pokemon that can run this probably will, and it has a massive distribution meaning pretty much every team will be able to fit it onto something. Time to return to my gimicky bulky goldeen!

 

[TUO]

I completely disagree with the idea that bulky Goldeen is gimmicky xD. Anyway time to be serious with my limited knowledge of XY.

The main thing about the Knock off buff in my opinion is the fact that Knock Off is already used by many Pokemon as of now (Knock off is great in BW LC) and is even crazier now, due to its power boost (how much of a power increase does it get if the opp has an item?) Pokemon like Gligar can use Knock Off with some crazy AcroGem stuff (if you get knocked off, well I can use Acrobatics now, if you knock off someone, more damage on Acrobatics, with some extra damage and breaking through stuff like Slowpoke)

Knock Off is a great move for Pokemon with STAB on it like Sneasel and Scraggy as well, allowing them to add some offensive utility to themselves (Shown in a log of Blarajan getting rekt). As said previously, Knock Off is a decent enough STAB allowing Scraggy to run an extra coverage move (I personally prefer ZHB over the mentioned Poison Jab) Sneasel is also just great, if only it got technician boost on it....

Then you get Pokemon that are crazy when the enemy's eviolite are gone, Scarf Mienfoo is the first thing, smashing everything, then you think of how powerful Sucker Punches are from SubRoost Krow when Eviolite is gone, and lastly there are other Shell Smash Sweepers like Dwebble and Tirtouga being able to easily blow through things (there is some Shell Smasher in XY, I just can't remember it's name)

Threats that I see really rising are the following: Scarf Mienfoo, DD Scraggy, SS Dwebble, Cottonee (has access to Fairy+Knock Off), Sneasel and Gligar (just great mons in general), and even some stupider sweepers (Scarf Bunnelby+DD Scraggy offensive core anyone?)

 

[Delver]

I honestly think knock off might be *too* good this gen. Its a solid coverage option with the boost that there's no reason to not run it on things, it essentially says "deal decent damage, give it a permanent speed, power, or defensive drop". Which is super strong, if you need me to say that, disregarding the fact that it goes around unburden and other "no item bonuses". I think, if it sticks around, its going to make a big splash on the item meta, if you will, which is to say less eviolite spam; and probably more gems, as they provide an instant boost in damage with no drawback, without being too reliant on conditions (like berries). I also think it makes berry juice less broken (I mean a mirror glued together is still a broken mirror, but).

 

[Kavatika]

I know this doesn't contribute to the discussion at all, but Noibat should be tested for Knock Off as an egg move. It'd make sense for it to have it, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Pen Ink]

knock off is going to be the defining move in the meta imo, just because of the sheer amount of pokemon that get it.

 

[DDRMaster]

It's now been confirmed that Knock Off DOES increase in power if the target has an item recently in the Battle Mechanics thread and the boost is about 50%. This means that it has 97.5 BP for the first use, and essentially keeps that boost if it removes an Eviolite. I honestly don't see anything that gets it running any other Dark move (or Ghost move for that matter unless it gets STAB).

 

[JacobNinja]

Question: If I give my missy or whatever the anti-dark berry, and get knock off'd, will I take 65 bp or will the boost still activate?

 

[apt-get]

Question: If I give my missy or whatever the anti-dark berry, and get knock off'd, will I take 65 bp or will the boost still activate?

The boost will activate.

 

[Raseri]

With Sneasel, the most prominent user of Knock Off being banned. I want to discuss arguably the next best group of users in LC. Fighting types. There are three Fighting-types that I believe got a huge buff with the Knock Off changes. Mienfoo, Timburr, and Croagunk all love the ability to remove the opponents items, as it allows

Mienfoo was a very difficult Pokemon to counter in BW, but for the most part you could switch to Missy and do decently well. But with the power boost to Knock Off, many former checks, such as Croagunk and Koffing, can no longer fulfill the role as easily as they did previously.

Timburr can also make great use of Knock Off. It uses Knock Off as mor of a utility move than Mienfoo does, but is still able to do insane amounts of damage with it. Ghost-types can not pivot safely with Timburr anymore, as the risk of Knock Off is far greater than the risk of Payback. On top of this, bulky switch-ins such as Hippopotas are greatly crippled by losing their item.

Finally, Croagunk makes use of Knock Off as even more of a utility move than TImburr does! Previously, Croagunk could still get around Ghost- and Psychic-types with Shadow Ball. Now, Croagunk can lure in Gligar and threaten it with both Icy Wind and Knock Off.

So, how has Knock Off effected Fighting-types in LC? Will they be even bigger threats than they were last gen? Or do the addition of fairys outweigh the buff to Knock Off? :>

 

[Sergetank]

Knock off is amazing, and for our fighting trio of Mienfoo/Croagunk/Timburr, they're much more powerful threats now. Ghosts/Psychics can get manhandled AND lose their items. Poison types can still resist their main stab, but losing your item while trying to wall one of them isn't such a great thing. Worse, even my man Grimer takes repeated boosted hits because Knock Off is weird, and does boosted damage to it no matter what. No longer does Timburr need to use Ice Punch on it to do damage; a 95 bp attack is fine too.

With only 3 main fairies making their prescence known ( spritzee / snubbull / swirlix ), they're not afraid. And if our friendly neighborhood fairies are unlucky enough to switch into it, they'll lose their item despite resisting the hit. A simple switch out into a counter, and suddenly our fairies are in trouble.

Frankly, fighting types, the bad trio in particular, are all too eager to take on the rest of the tier at this point.

Special mentions go to Pawniard / Vullaby / Scraggy who are all too happy for their new buff against steel + this move. Pawniard doesn't need brick break now except against other Pawniard and (lol) Carvanha, Vullaby can harass harder, and Scraggy can casually slip Poison Jab into it's movepool to handle fairies while swapping crunch for a move that makes it's opponents easier to drag it's saggy pants over.

 

[sparktrain]

Croagunk is a great user of the move, and has the cool niche of being the only Fighting type in the tier that isn't weak to Fairy. Running Dark/Fighting/Poison moves on a set gives perfect coverage barring other Croagunk. Personally, I like running Knock Off over Sucker Punch because of its incredible utility, and because even bulky resistors of the move HATE switching into it, due to them losing their precious item.

Knock Off saw decent use last gen despite the low BP. We'll be seeing a ton of this move.

 

[Ash Borer]

pawniard's knock off is a terror. It's a dark type that beats the hell out of fairies with its iron head too. Combine that with a strong sucker punch and you have something very hard to face.

 

[ryan]

I actually wanted to bring up Pawniard as well. I'd been wanting to use it anyways because getting a sexy +2 boost to Attack when it switches in on Sticky Web (thanks to Defiant) is a sick way for balanced teams to handle offensive Sticky Web teams. Of course, you still have to deal with LO Mienfoo, which is a terror on offensive Sticky Web teams, but it doesn't want to switch in on a +2 Iron Head at all. It also doesn't care for a +2 Sucker Punch:

+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Mienfoo: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%)

Today, I was talking to a friend about Bisharp in OU, and they noted that it can switch into Skarmory's Defog, get the Evasion drop, and get +2 Attack in the process. Same goes for Pawniard in LC, which can come in on something like Vullaby as it uses Defog and then start smacking around the opposing team. Pawniard in particular just got a lot more viable as a Knock Off spammer as well with the banning Sneasel, as it's one of the only Pokemon left in LC that gets STAB on it. Timburr is also probably going to be seen a bit less with no Sneasel, and currently popular defensive threats such as Growlithe struggle to check Pawniard because it ends up at +1 after the drop from Intimidate and the boost from Defiant. Definitely a huge threat to look out for, and I can't wait to try it out.

 

[snowcrow]

ive been using knock off on my Gligar it works quite well on him because people think you are going to use Earthquake or Acrobatic

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Yes, Pawniard is a monster with Knock Off and the boosts Defiant grants it if it comes in on Sticky Web. I made a post about it in the Sticky Web thread a little while back. It's especially destructive late game and it's funny if the opponent uses a non-attacking move or makes a switch, hoping to avoid +2 STAB Sucker Punch, and then they eat a +2 STAB Knock Off and lose their item... STAB Knock Off is arguably what made Sneasel so broken but I think Pawniard's manageable Speed and its weaknesses to Ground and Fighting will keep it in balance. It also interestingly Speed ties with Growlithe, which can either burn it, seriously hurt it, or get its ass turned inside out by Knock Off/Sucker Punch with the right prediction or a little luck.

Fighting-types with Knock Off indeed have security against Ghosts like Misdreavus this generation, but I think Unburden Swirlix keeps them from getting out of hand, since it resists both attacking types and actually benefits from Knock Off. Many Fighting-types also have access to Poison Jab but we'll see how that pans out; Poison Jab isn't nearly as spammable as Knock Off and you'd feel stupid using it as a resistant threat comes in, like Gligar or Misdreavus.

I think Vullaby is by far the best utility mon that makes good use of this move. Not only does its Flying-type give it a neutrality to Bug- and Fighting-type attacks, but it also has the bulk to last a while in a match, handy recovery in Roost, and a powerful STAB move in Brave Bird. The STAB it gets from Knock Off only adds to its effectiveness, as it gets a 1.5x boost from that as well as an added 1.5x boost if the target has an item (no reason not to carry items) and actually does a surprising amount of damage. Vullaby's access to Defog also helps it get rid of the Stealth Rock that attempts to give it a hard time throughout a match... Knock Off is perfect for this thing.

Gligar can make good use of Knock Off but it already has severe "4-moveslot syndrome" since it makes such great offensive use of Earthquake and Acrobatics, provides amazing utility with Taunt, U-turn, and Defog, and also can serve as a Stealth Rock layer to make it a super hazard control mon after removing hazards with Defog. Removing the opponents' items will have to seem very important to a player to forgo some of these excellent options in exchange for Knock Off, but it is a good user of it nonetheless.

I find it interesting that Ledyba is in the above list of notable users of Knock Off. I have yet to see any reason why this Pokemon is an avid user of the move or is even viable, but I'd love to hear more. Bug/Flying is a pretty bad defensive typing, especially without the Speed to make offensive use of the STAB coverage it provides, so I'm wondering why this was added. I will be stoked if Ledyba can actually see some use this generation.

 

[macle]

ive been using knock off on my Gligar it works quite well on him because people think you are going to use Earthquake or Acrobatic

I've also been using Knock Off Gligar but I have been having mixed results. Most of the time I don't need to knock off to KO the pokemon and I feel having SR / Defog / other coverage move would be better. It does help against some walls that can be a problem.

 

[snowcrow]

I've also been using Knock Off Gligar but I have been having mixed results. Most of the time I don't need to knock off to KO the pokemon and I feel having SR / Defog / other coverage move would be better. It does help against some walls that can be a problem.

you bring up a good point but i think the risk is worth having a unexpected move is worth it especiially with all the sturdy berry juce users

 

[Ray Jay]

Croagunk is seriously underrated as a Knock Off user imo. Its typing allows it to soak Toxic Spikes which is nifty, it can switch into most Fighting-types barring Meditite, and its secondary typing prevents Fairies from switching in all willy nilly. This is I think perhaps its biggest advantage, as many of the common Knock Off users right now are Fighting-types or Dark-types such as Vullaby (although technically as pointed out, Pawniard fills this niche as well) and are thus very weak to Fairy-types. Fighting-type priority in the form of vacuum wave is also pretty nice, especially with how common Sturdy Smash has become from Tirtouga. Overall, there are a lot of Mienfoos I'm seeing that are trying to do what Croagunk might actually do better right now; Mienfoo is much better suited to simply abuse Regenerator or HJK in conjunction with Spider Web. Playing with resistances and switching in to wreak havoc with Knock Off is something Croagunk does really well.

 

[Raseri]

Goddess Briyella, I think Ledyba is there kind of as a joke and partially because it can actually use Knock Off pre-Pokebank.

Another interesting user of Knock Off I've wanted to try is Tirtouga. It used Knock off quite a bit in BW on the support set, but with Sturdy Smash right now, there's almost no real reason to run the support set. On top of that, it's defensive typing is pretty bad right now, being weak to Tangela, Gligar, Meditite and more.

But on the bright side, its sheer bulk and decent amount of power might actually make it good. Between Stealth Rock / Waterfall / Stone Edge / Aqua Jet / Knock Off / Ice Beam it might be able to pull off a solid defensive set. I just love tirt so much i want to see it succeed in any way possible. :)

Also, Scraggy as a sweeper is something I forgot to mention when I went through Fighting-types before. The power boost to Knock Off makes it a superior attack to Crunch almost all the time. And Knock Off removing Eviolite's from the likes of Croagunk and Timburr can make them easier for him to defeat.

So thoughts on Knock Off Tirtouga and DD Knock Off Scraggy?

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Another interesting user of Knock Off I've wanted to try is Tirtouga. It used Knock off quite a bit in BW on the support set, but with Sturdy Smash right now, there's almost no real reason to run the support set. On top of that, it's defensive typing is pretty bad right now, being weak to Tangela, Gligar, Meditite and more.

But on the bright side, its sheer bulk and decent amount of power might actually make it good. Between Stealth Rock / Waterfall / Stone Edge / Aqua Jet / Knock Off / Ice Beam it might be able to pull off a solid defensive set. I just love tirt so much i want to see it succeed in any way possible. :)

Also, Scraggy as a sweeper is something I forgot to mention when I went through Fighting-types before. The power boost to Knock Off makes it a superior attack to Crunch almost all the time. And Knock Off removing Eviolite's from the likes of Croagunk and Timburr can make them easier for him to defeat.

So thoughts on Knock Off Tirtouga and DD Knock Off Scraggy?

I can definitely see Knock Off finding a spot on the support set Tirtouga runs (Knock Off is actually a suggested move in the BW analysis, sharing a moveslot with Aqua Jet with a slash in the Support set if I recall correctly). It can see greater use now that Knock Off's power is much higher.

As for Scraggy, I'm almost 100% sure that Knock Off replaces Crunch on the sets most people use now, at least that's definitely what I would suggest in the analysis when it comes to quality control. The only thing that's a pain in the ass for Scraggy this generation is that Fairy-types wall both of its STABs, and it cannot beat Croagunk (a Pokemon seeing good usage right now that ALSO walls both of Scraggy's STABs) without running Zen Headbutt. So people who run Dragon Dance sets with Scraggy will have to choose between running Zen Headbutt and losing to Fairy-types or running Poison Jab/Iron Head and never getting around Croagunk unless you get lucky with flinches.

And poor Ledyba :'(

 

[dcae]

I'd like to note that Knock Off Scraggy had already become standard towards the end of last geb. At this point Knock fOff outclasses Crunch drastically and frees a coverage move for Scraggy. Essentially I would argue anything with STAB on it should be running Knock Off and anything with space should be running it as well. It is the best move in LC atm and probably for the reet of the gen for a reason ;)