Gengar and Aegislash are 2 of the most used mons right now. Teams are going to have spin blockers.
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Other The state of entry hazards for gen 6
- Thread starter mrglass
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I think people are both over-estimating the power of obsticals and defog.
Defog isn't going to remove obsticals from the game, it just won't, too many mons rely on it. At the same time, defog is important, as it can be carried on some mons where you wouldn't expect it, especially if you do something crazy like scarfing a RSer for sweeping, so that they won't expect the defog. I know there's even fewer RSers that can that, but...
Defog isn't going to remove obsticals from the game, it just won't, too many mons rely on it. At the same time, defog is important, as it can be carried on some mons where you wouldn't expect it, especially if you do something crazy like scarfing a RSer for sweeping, so that they won't expect the defog. I know there's even fewer RSers that can that, but...
If defog gets any sort of usage, it will predominantly be in UU short of one of three things happening
1. OU drops down some better spinners (seriously, UU has the worst rapid spinners of any meta, even worse than NU probably)
2. Every man and their dog proceeds to run mega blastoise (which sadly, will probably happen, causing huge overcentralization of UU's meta)
3. Froslass Remains banned/gets rebanned from the tier along with people wishing to attempt to run other mega evolutions/other bulky waters than blastoise.
To expand a bit, given UU is full of fire types (because of their great offensive capabilities), flying types (because of their defensive/offensive roles) and far too many good spinblockers + hazard setters, I expect defog to make a strong showing in UU. Even moreso if froslass is reallowed, as HO makes life hell when too many layers of spikes go up and you're unable to spin or cough up valuable turns in doing so, or again, because RS is so awful in UU that you'd much rather forgo it if possible. MegaBlastoise will help, but I really do not like the idea of a forced requirement in team building, which is what blastoise will become IMO, due to it then being the only offensive RS in the tier + the current state of hazards in UU's metagame.
Hell, even if OU dropped some spinners our way, we'd still probably overcentralise around megablastoise, simply because we'd be lucky to get something like donphan, who would be overlooked for blastoise.
1. OU drops down some better spinners (seriously, UU has the worst rapid spinners of any meta, even worse than NU probably)
2. Every man and their dog proceeds to run mega blastoise (which sadly, will probably happen, causing huge overcentralization of UU's meta)
3. Froslass Remains banned/gets rebanned from the tier along with people wishing to attempt to run other mega evolutions/other bulky waters than blastoise.
To expand a bit, given UU is full of fire types (because of their great offensive capabilities), flying types (because of their defensive/offensive roles) and far too many good spinblockers + hazard setters, I expect defog to make a strong showing in UU. Even moreso if froslass is reallowed, as HO makes life hell when too many layers of spikes go up and you're unable to spin or cough up valuable turns in doing so, or again, because RS is so awful in UU that you'd much rather forgo it if possible. MegaBlastoise will help, but I really do not like the idea of a forced requirement in team building, which is what blastoise will become IMO, due to it then being the only offensive RS in the tier + the current state of hazards in UU's metagame.
Hell, even if OU dropped some spinners our way, we'd still probably overcentralise around megablastoise, simply because we'd be lucky to get something like donphan, who would be overlooked for blastoise.
I don't believe the UU and OU of last gen will look anything like the UU and OU of this gen. The fairy type, Mega-Evos, the weather nerf, Aegislash, and Sticky Web just change things too much. On top of that, Defog is a good option for OU teams that don't have a use for any current spinners aside from their ability to spin. And with Aegislash probably making it's way onto almost every team, spinblocking will probably be easier. But even I think both tiers are too unpredictable to sort out whether Defog will be better in OU or UU.
Mega Blastoise won't be that big only because of the fact that it uses a mega spot. It's definitely not a bad choice, but if you want to run Mega Chomp, Mega Aggron, Mega T-Tar, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Mawile, Mega Charizard, etc. you don't have a the option of using Mega Blastoise. The same with Mega Absol. Magic Bounce is fantastic, especially on something not Pursuit weak. But you need to use a mega slot to use it. I'm not saying they are bad, or that they won't be OU, but I'm saying they aren't going to be as ubiquitous as everyone says purely because of the mega restriction.
I typically play with a bulky offense style team, and usually run SR.
Given that the meta seems to be favoring bulky attackers and set up sweepers, this will probably become the go-to playstyle, much like Rain was last gen. What I've found in my own battling is that on a team of that style, SR can be a nice addition to help with KOs, but, since they are truly only secondary, there is no need to keep them up. The only sort of situation where I would say to myself "I need to get rocks up" is when I would see a DNite or Volcarona in team preview. Otherwise, it was a secondary goal, not the go-to one. I actually ran rocks on both Heatran and Ferro, but switched SR on Heatran for Roar simply because it offered more utility.
To sum up: Stealth Rocks/ No Stealth Rocks makes little difference to BO teams. This meta favors BO.
BO also likes to run frailer setup sweepers like... You guessed it, Volcarona and DNite. Aegislash, Garchomp and Conkeldurr are others that play similarly, but take a pittance from SR. All three can hit hard enough that SR rarely makes a kill/no kill difference. All of these Pokemon can play well in an arena where there are no hazards on either side, and so would be prime candidates for Defog.
I see it having a good usage this gen, and the prevalence of hazards getting knocked down a bit. Sure, they'll still be big, but they will no longer be the final vote in a Pokemon's relevancy, since many that are crippled by them can now blow them away.
Given that the meta seems to be favoring bulky attackers and set up sweepers, this will probably become the go-to playstyle, much like Rain was last gen. What I've found in my own battling is that on a team of that style, SR can be a nice addition to help with KOs, but, since they are truly only secondary, there is no need to keep them up. The only sort of situation where I would say to myself "I need to get rocks up" is when I would see a DNite or Volcarona in team preview. Otherwise, it was a secondary goal, not the go-to one. I actually ran rocks on both Heatran and Ferro, but switched SR on Heatran for Roar simply because it offered more utility.
To sum up: Stealth Rocks/ No Stealth Rocks makes little difference to BO teams. This meta favors BO.
BO also likes to run frailer setup sweepers like... You guessed it, Volcarona and DNite. Aegislash, Garchomp and Conkeldurr are others that play similarly, but take a pittance from SR. All three can hit hard enough that SR rarely makes a kill/no kill difference. All of these Pokemon can play well in an arena where there are no hazards on either side, and so would be prime candidates for Defog.
I see it having a good usage this gen, and the prevalence of hazards getting knocked down a bit. Sure, they'll still be big, but they will no longer be the final vote in a Pokemon's relevancy, since many that are crippled by them can now blow them away.
I do hope defog is as good as people are hyping it to be. I've been really annoyed ever since SR came out. It really limits and centralizes the game in terms of which mons you can use, and turns a simple weakness into complete unusability for many. does it really make the game so intolerable to people if the opponent can't use it but you can't either? *shrug*. I think people are just too spoiled by seeing constant calcs of "such and such OHKOs blah blah blah after SR damage."
I have tried 3 spider web users and Galvantula is the worst in my humble opinion.
Shuckle is the best one at dealing with defog as it can survive and come back several time through the battle to use the webs. Infestation+toxic makes him capable of killing something once its job is done.
Smeargle usually dies after the initial setup, but when it survives after spore(paralysis if grass) and web it can now use parting shot as a pseudo memento without dying. I have found it to be a great team support this gen.
Galvantula is a great offensive Pokemon but a not so great sticky web user. It can set the webs and do some damage, but it has a hard time surviving to use sticky web multiple times through the battle and lacks the team support Smeargle offers. Still, it has the niche of actually hurting stuff unlike the other two.
Shuckle is the best one at dealing with defog as it can survive and come back several time through the battle to use the webs. Infestation+toxic makes him capable of killing something once its job is done.
Smeargle usually dies after the initial setup, but when it survives after spore(paralysis if grass) and web it can now use parting shot as a pseudo memento without dying. I have found it to be a great team support this gen.
Galvantula is a great offensive Pokemon but a not so great sticky web user. It can set the webs and do some damage, but it has a hard time surviving to use sticky web multiple times through the battle and lacks the team support Smeargle offers. Still, it has the niche of actually hurting stuff unlike the other two.
Yeah, I feel Galvantula lost what it had for a second. With Defog, suicide leads will probably be less viable. Shuckle's probably the most ideal for it's longetivity.
Galvantula is still useful as it's resilient to Taunt both through being faster than the other Sticky Web users/being able to hit the Taunt user for a lot of damage should they decide to use it. It is also well equipped to handle an opponent using substitute on the sticky web unlike Smeargle/Shuckle who can't really do too much anymore to prevent the opponent from getting the immediate advantage through either a boost or a free hit.
Additionally via the inclusion of Defog while suicide leads are worse off dying early now, it is now more possible for them to switch back in later on 1 HP and get another hit in, or possible for you to bring him back with Sash unbroken later by starting off with a Volt Switch/U-Turn. I've enjoyed Galvantula quite a bit as a lead in testing, while I give him the Sash, it's rare that I actually leave him in to die an early death.
On the general topic of the thread, I do believe we will be seeing Spikes for the most part phased out, with the exception of on Greninja where the electric immunity bonus is quite useful.
Additionally via the inclusion of Defog while suicide leads are worse off dying early now, it is now more possible for them to switch back in later on 1 HP and get another hit in, or possible for you to bring him back with Sash unbroken later by starting off with a Volt Switch/U-Turn. I've enjoyed Galvantula quite a bit as a lead in testing, while I give him the Sash, it's rare that I actually leave him in to die an early death.
On the general topic of the thread, I do believe we will be seeing Spikes for the most part phased out, with the exception of on Greninja where the electric immunity bonus is quite useful.
And even if some of them are SR weak, for example Defensive Zapdos or Mandibuzz are tanky enough and have reliable recovery (with Leftovers as well) to actually come in more then once and use Defog as much as needed. Also Mandibuzz gets Taunt and Zapdos may use Volt Switch to gain momentum back, so I wouldn't say that they bait set-up sweepers and make you loose momentum that easy. There are more example like those.
Gliscor, Mew and Latias are really good defog users; on the other hand, Skarmory is not good because it removes the EHs you set.
... You know NU's best spinner in Gen V was Wartortle of all things?
SmashKoal had a niche on offensive teams but Wartortle was the most reliable spinner.
Even NU will have some Defoggers anyway for teams that are desperate to remove hazards, most notably Sun teams. Not good ones, but things like Noctowl and Pidgeot could work well enough.
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I think Defog and the weather nerf are just going to fundamentally change how team composition works. The meta will likely shift to include both teams with and without hazards/weather like it was in pre-Plat 4th Gen OU. That said, I really don't want to assume too much about the composition of the three main tiers in the early meta of this generation- given most WiFi battling is just floundering with new things and trying to counter Azumarill and Aegislash.
To say UU had a bad hand when it comes to spinners compared to NU... We had Delibird, Armaldo, Torkoal, Wartortle, and a few NFEs that come to mind. In the end I just ended up forgoing a spinner and just ran Mold Breaker Specsculin to deal with the rock setters (which usually came out first and depended on their Sturdy).
Defog will get some use in NU but suffers the same issues as anywhere... Rock weakness is not fun for a hazard cleaner. Unless people start using Lumineon and Shiftry to do the job down in NU...
Why are you quoting me? I didn't say UU had a bad hand compared to NU, I said Wartortle was NU's best spinner (which is Blastoise's prevo, which is the most common spinner in UU).
About Defog in NU, most birds do have reliable recovery in the form of Roost, so it isn't that bad.
To be fair, NU also mostly has fairly crappy hazard setters, at least compared to things like Qwilfish, Roserade and the now banned Deoxys-D and Froslass. Quite often a UU team can end up with spikes just through picking great Pokemon, wheras NU you kind of have to go out of your way to use anything besides SR. That said, NU definitely got the short end of the stick as far as hazard clearance goes. My undersatanding is that it is also quite easy to spinblock there, whereas Blastoise can actually threaten some of the UU Ghosts with Scald.
With regards to the main topic, a lot of people are very enthusiastic about Defog and the potential that it holds, but we kind of forget how limited the distribution is going to be until Pokebank comes out, I mean Swanna gets Defog by level up and can probably breed it to a couple of things but apart from that what is there? Most of the Defoggers rely on the HM, so the initial OU metagame will probably be dominated by rapid spinners, especially with Excadrill around and Talonflame to spin for. Bulky ghosts have not lost their niche just yet. Gourgeist is quite nice, but as far as I know you can't beat both Starmie and Excadrill at the same time so you will have to pick your poison so to speak. I suspect we may end up seeing spikestacking teams with double ghosts given the plethora introduced in this generation.
Ah, consider it a case of newbie syndrome, I expected it to quote both messages. Really I was looking at targeting the guy saying UU had bad spinners when compared with NU but oh well.
They do have roost but the frailty of most birds is the clincher there. With Defog flapping about people aren't really going to run (T)Spikes all that often because the birds can come in and effortlessly blow all your efforts away. So it looks like Rocks are going to remain a dominant hazard, perhaps more so with the Defog hype.
Also some of NU's best birds (read: Mandibuzz) will probably move up, especially with Overcoat's shiny new buffs.
Scolipede is arguably one of the two best pokemon in the entire tier, and virtually every set he runs includes either Spikes or Toxic Spikes, or both. Roselia and Garbodor are also very effective within the tier. Frankly, the place is littered in Spikes.
To be completely honest, I haven't seen (in my limited experience. I'm limited by being unable to actually battle more than a few times a day, because of school and such.) much of Defogging, because once I get SR and a layer of spikes up, anything that switches in is weakened enough to one or two HKO. If it flies, its weak to SR. If it resists SR, it takes decent damage from spikes. (except Skarm.) I get up my hazards, then begin sweeping through the enemy team with ease. One time I got up SR and three layers of spikes, and they had no Defoggers, only a Forretres. So naturally, my +1 252 SpAtk Porygon-Z proceeded to 2HKO it with Thunderbolt, thanks to hazards, and getting a hit on the switch in. Only with max hazards was I able to prevent my hazards from being cleared. Kinda ironic. Their Forretres was doomed by what it was sent out to clear. And from that moment, they were royally screwed, taking 37% damage on any switch in. Hazards are extremely welcome on my team, as they allow me to KO quicker, and keep more momentum, and therefore keeping them from removing them. But they aren't so crucial that if I lost them, then it's gg. I just push through their Defogger/Spinner, and keep right on sweeping. They can change a lot of 3 or 4HKOs into 1 or 2HKOs, but aren't neccesary. The point in this, is that while hazards are nice, the meta isn't centered around them and their removal. On that note, I haven't seen much hazard usage from others, so usually I set up hazards, then let my hazards/spinner die, since I probably won't need him again. Even if someone DOES set up hazards, it's usually just SR, which doesn't completely cripple me, and I can simply push through. Or if they remove mine, The time they took to remove them allows me to get a free KO. I personally find Hazards/Defog/Spinning to be pretty balanced usage-wise.
False. I have a team where I run both Defog and Rapid Spin (and no, it's not reduntant with CB Talonflame and 2 more SR weak mons) and it allows you to control situation. You want to get their SR away and keep yours ? Use Rapid Spin. You have trouble removing their hazards ? Use Defog.
Also you may run Defog and SR together in case if:
a) Their Defog user dies first. Or Rapid Spinner. It means there's nothing from their side to remove hazards.
b) You put so much offensive pressure (HO) or just good offense (Semi-Stall, Bulky Offense) that they don't even have a chance to use Defog safely while you still have SR up. If you feel like they are weakened enough and don't need that SR that much up and your team doesn't like it as well, this is good moment to use Defog. So it technically means you needed SR up for Early/Mid game and in super late-game you don't need it anymore and it hurts your team more now than theirs. It did the job already in this particular game.
c) Run Defog + SR on the same Pokemon. If you see they don't have Defog user, just throw SR and don't use it. They use Spikes and you have situation 3 Spikes vs your SR (which just needs only 1 turn to use) ? Use Defog, this way they'll waste 3 turns for nothing for the exchange of your 1 turn. And even if they use Defog/Rapid Spin or you use Defog while you had your SR up, if you use SR you only need one turn to get it back. No big deal. While I agree it's not really worth it to run Spikes/Toxic Spikes with Defog, it is totally fine with SR hazard.
Defog may be overrated, but you certainly cannot deny that the meta game is a new place now thanks to its buff. People are always going to run Defog because it's a way for hazard-less (and hazards, believe it or not) teams to get rid of hazards on their side. And lets not ignore its other benefits, such as removing screens and other area buffs. Flying types, one of the best offensives types in the game, really appreciate the extra support, and their prominence will certainly raise along with defog. Honesty, another way to. Punter hazards is just what the meta game needed.
Gliscor is an okay Defog user at best because it's forced to run Hyper Cutter as its ability, which is basically a useless ability for it. Losing Poison Heal isn't worth it.
People will still use them.
I see their use, but I personally have not much use for them in the 25-something pokemon under my belt.
Defog brings more options to the table to remove them, if I don't use entry hazards and I need a Defogger, why not use that?
I see their use, but I personally have not much use for them in the 25-something pokemon under my belt.
Defog brings more options to the table to remove them, if I don't use entry hazards and I need a Defogger, why not use that?
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