Pokémon Blaziken

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Mega Blaziken has Speed Boost no matter what. So even if you have a Blaze Blaziken, you can still Mega Evolve to get Speed Boost along with better stats.
 
Mega Blaziken has Speed Boost no matter what. So even if you have a Blaze Blaziken, you can still Mega Evolve to get Speed Boost along with better stats.
Then just ban Blazikenite like Soul Dew and Gengarite, as someone mentioned before.
 
Hey, I was wondering if I could get some input on the whole Mega Blaziken + Baton Pass situation. Speed Boost + Baton Pass on ol' Blaze has a lot of people excited, but a common statement I see people make always strikes me as somewhat counter-intuitive...

You're running Mega Blaze and someone switches into something you can't touch, I presume this is where Baton Pass comes in.

But if you're running Baton Pass you're probably running Swords Dance for the big buff switch if you're going to Pass anyway.

Thing is... running Baton Pass + SD is going to cut into your coverage attacks big time and you're left with either 1 STAB and 1 coverage attack or 2 STAB and 0 coverage - meaning that you're more likely going to have to Baton Pass pretty much ANY switch in that your opponent throws at you.

If you're to use your mega slot on Blaze is it really worth it to cut away at your sweeping ability to allow him to bail Speed Boost to another mon?

It makes sense to me but at the same time it digs away at me that:

- Mega Blaze and hope to dish out some big hits
- Have Baton Pass to switch out if you encounter something you can't deal with, maybe combo it with Swords Dance for the big Pass
- Taking Baton Pass and/or Swords Dance lowers the amount of things you can deal with

I might just be over-thinking things...
 
Well, in the first place Fire and Fighting isn't a bad offensive type combo. Only a handful of Pokemon resist them both, so Blaziken can do plenty with just its STABs. Which, being High Jump Kick and Flare Blitz, aren't exactly lacking in power. So you can hit things with Sword Dance boosted STABS, and then just Baton Pass out when something you can't smash with those comes in to continue the sweep.

That's why Azumarill and Talonflame are probably the biggest threats to Blaziken, as they not only resist both of its STABs, but can just ignore its Speed Boost and KO with Super Effective priority, so there's no Baton Passing out.
 
Well, in the first place Fire and Fighting isn't a bad offensive type combo. Only a handful of Pokemon resist them both, so Blaziken can do plenty with just its STABs. Which, being High Jump Kick and Flare Blitz, aren't exactly lacking in power. So you can hit things with Sword Dance boosted STABS, and then just Baton Pass out when something you can't smash with those comes in to continue the sweep.

That's why Azumarill and Talonflame are probably the biggest threats to Blaziken, as they not only resist both of its STABs, but can just ignore its Speed Boost and KO with Super Effective priority, so there's no Baton Passing out.
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. I guess I was just confused by how on the one hand there's a lot of talk around at the moment of "wasting a precious mega slot", but on the other being pretty resigned to Baton Passing out Mega Blaze on any switch in it can't STAB seemed a little contradictory.

In the end would it be better to take a extra attack or two to continue the Mega Blaze sweep as opposed to Baton Passing out on anything you can't HJK or Flare Blitz?

Since both movesets can't be used against the Talon and Azu checks it doesn't seem like a deal-breaker either way.
 
Any Fairy can resist both STABs, and if it's running Baton Pass, that's all it'll have. Xerneas could make a great switch-in, although of course it's up in the air what tiers it'll end up allowed in.
Fire resists Fairy, not the other way around.
 
If you're using Mega Pinsir, that guy can switch in on a predicted Fighting-type attack and he has priority Aerialate Quick Attack.

Doesn't quite match priority Brave Bird or Azumarill's whole thing, but it's there.
 

SJCrew

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Thing is... running Baton Pass + SD is going to cut into your coverage attacks big time and you're left with either 1 STAB and 1 coverage attack or 2 STAB and 0 coverage - meaning that you're more likely going to have to Baton Pass pretty much ANY switch in that your opponent throws at you.
This is actually incorrect. You'll find that once Blaziken is boosted, Mega or not, he stops caring about any non-defensive resist. Dragonite, Salamence, and Gyarados all die to a boosted Hi Jump Kick after rocks, even factoring Intimidate. For example's sake, let's use Blaziken Mega vs a defensive Tentacruel: +2 252+ Atk Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 244 Def Tentacruel: 282-333 (77.68 - 91.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Bear in mind that Blaziken with Life Orb does more damage.

Latios? Latias?

+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 327-385 (108.63 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 297-350 (81.59 - 96.15%)

It's when the truly defensive resists come out to play that you're forced to Baton Pass. Vs. something like Jellicent, you can Baton Pass into almost any sweeper with Lum Berry and win the game.

Also, you can totally pull this off against an Azumarill and Talonflame if rocks are up. Talonflame will die to an attack if it tries to switch in to prevent the pass, and Azumarill will take heavy damage from any attack, discouraging it from switching in again. The Belly Drum set doesn't even check Blaziken properly with Leftovers Aqua Jet failing to KO even regular Blaziken after rocks (Mystic Water is another issue if anyone is using that).

Basically, what you can get out of this post is that Blaziken's checks are pussies; almost everything dies to Hi Jump Kick, and for whatever doesn't, you can pass into a win.
 
Considering that MegaBlaziken has basically... nothing over his regular form, that's not how things would work in this case.
252+ Mega Blaziken's Attack stat: 460
252+ Life Orb Blaziken's Attack stat: 483.6

Mega Blaziken is 4.88% physically weaker than LO Blaziken (If both are Adamant) while being faster. You lose a very low amount of damage but you get the ability to outspeed many pokémon at +1 that standard Blaziken needed +2 to. It loses some guaranteed 2HKOes such as Hi Jump Kick on some Calm Mind Arceus formes or Flare Blitz on Double Dance Landorus-T (Just an example), but hazards still make them guaranteed

-1 252 Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 80 HP / 8 Def Landorus-T: 48.96 - 57.81%
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 80 HP / 8 Def Landorus-T: 51.62 - 61.06%

252 Atk Mega Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Water: 47.52 - 56.3%
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Water: 50.45 - 59.68%

It hits for about 3% less damage

Of course, Mega Blaziken uses your Mega slot, but it's a good choice if you have nothing else to Mega in your team
 
252+ Mega Blaziken's Attack stat: 460
252+ Life Orb Blaziken's Attack stat: 483.6

Mega Blaziken is 4.88% physically weaker than LO Blaziken (If both are Adamant) while being faster. You lose a very low amount of damage but you get the ability to outspeed many pokémon at +1 that standard Blaziken needed +2 to. It loses some guaranteed 2HKOes such as Hi Jump Kick on some Calm Mind Arceus formes or Flare Blitz on Double Dance Landorus-T (Just an example), but hazards still make them guaranteed

-1 252 Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 80 HP / 8 Def Landorus-T: 48.96 - 57.81%
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 80 HP / 8 Def Landorus-T: 51.62 - 61.06%

252 Atk Mega Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Water: 47.52 - 56.3%
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Water: 50.45 - 59.68%

It hits for about 3% less damage

Of course, Mega Blaziken uses your Mega slot, but it's a good choice if you have nothing else to Mega in your team
Regular Blaziken tends to run Jolly, which Adamant Mega Blaziken can beat in power, speed, and bulk, all without LO recoil. So it's definitely a step up.

But the question is, how big of a step? Remember that this is about the idea of banning Blazikenite. Although Mega Blaziken is a solid improvement for teams that don't want any other Mega, it's hard to imagine a scenario where Mega Blaziken would be broken but regular Blaziken would not.
 

SJCrew

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@ Talpr0ne: I think what you mean is that there isn't a great enough distinction between Blaze and its Mega to warrant an item ban over a Pokemon ban. This might be true in the long run; however, one thing I can say about Mega Blaze that I can't quite say about Blaziken is that Mega Blaziken is not that easy to kill. Blaziken Mega, as shown in the calcs above (both mine and Siggu's), has a strikingly similar terrifying power to regular Blaziken, and it isn't carrying a Life Orb. You can't just wait for him to wear himself down into range for priority such as Lucario's Espeed and Breloom's Mach Punch because you have to get a hit in first. No Scarfer will do him in at +2 because of the speed.

Overall, Mega Blaziken has much easier time controlling the battle and may yet prove to be its own class of monster.
 
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In the last Smogon showcast they mention "why running Mega Blaziken? instead of using a normal Blaziken" and i think its kinda right, the main use for Blaziken will be Batton passer, with his new weakness to Fary type is more dangerouse to try other things, Blaziken is not going to sweep anytime soon (there are better sweeper and Mega sweepers) Azumarril and Togekiss can check him easy and his weakness to EQ is big, i think is very hard to go other way, also Scalopide is better in the role than Blaziken so i think we gonna have 2 choices here and both very flexibles, by no mean i say Scalopide is better than Mega Blaziken but other Mega's are. Also, while is kinda the same thing with Blazikenite, in his mega form Blaizeken is a little less flexible than regular form.
 

Haruno

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Regular Blaziken tends to run Jolly, which Adamant Mega Blaziken can beat in power, speed, and bulk, all without LO recoil. So it's definitely a step up.

But the question is, how big of a step? Remember that this is about the idea of banning Blazikenite. Although Mega Blaziken is a solid improvement for teams that don't want any other Mega, it's hard to imagine a scenario where Mega Blaziken would be broken but regular Blaziken would not.
regular blaze is running adamant. Period. Jolly is pretty lulzy
 
the main use for Blaziken will be Batton passer,
Blaziken is a dangerous physical sweeper that can Baton Pass its boosts in the event that a counter comes in, not a dedicated Baton Passer.

with his new weakness to Fary type is more dangerouse to try other things,
Blaziken is neutral to Fairy.

Blaziken is not going to sweep anytime soon (there are better sweeper and Mega sweepers)
There are few sweepers on Blaziken's level, especially Mega Blaziken's. Very little has that combination of powerful STABs, Swords Dance, Speed Boost (at +2, pretty much nothing outspeeds you), and in Mega Blaziken's case, raw power without having to even use a Life Orb. Personally, I've been using Blaziken plenty on PO's OU ladder, and it sweeps pretty easily.

Azumarril and Togekiss can check him easy and his weakness to EQ is big,
Even 252/252+ Togekiss is OHKO'd by Mega Blaziken's +2 Flare Blitz 93.75% of the time without any prior damage, so it doesn't check Blaziken at all. Azumarill does, but that's nothing new.

Literally the only things that regular Blaziken does better than Mega Blaziken are the mixed sets and maybe some kind of dedicated Baton Pass set if you wanted to abuse Leftovers.

regular blaze is running adamant. Period. Jolly is pretty lulzy
With an Adamant nature, you're outsped by positive base 130s and Scarf base 70s at +1, as well as Scarf Terrakion/Keldeo and everything faster at +2. You might prefer Adamant for the power, but Jolly is hardly "lulzy."
 

UltiMario

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I'm gunna be honest he's right about Adamant.

Scarf Terrakion/Keldeo aren't exactly huge in this meta (I think I've seen one of each in 150 battles), along with like 2 Scarf Latios. You're worse against 99.9% of the meta running jolly. Protect basically guarantees getting to +2, and if you're switching adamant blaziken into a base 130 in any other situation that being forced to, then you deserve to have it killed.
 
Then just ban Blazikenite like Soul Dew and Gengarite, as someone mentioned before.
Just thought I'd respond, but if we did this for everything then we'd start getting to major complex bannings which would defeat the purpose of not trying to complex ban. Sure you could allow Blaziken (assuming it won't be banned in this case) with Blaze in OU, while the SB varient runs in Ubers, but then you'd need two analysis. Then you'd have to take certain BL/UU/RU Pokemon and put both abilities to test to see if it fits directly in that tier vs. say any other tier. In the end although it sounds reasonable, it'd be more confusing to allow such a thing, than to just ban it and prevent complex bannings.

Anyway, I've got to say I'm sad that people actually think Blaziken isn't that big of a threat on other sites I go too, I question the sanity of those who think it's not in some regard at least. (If it gets set, it's going to stomp something)
 
Oh, Adamant is generally better, I'm not denying that. But acting like Jolly is laughable when there are legitimate reasons to use it is a real stretch.

Also, I'd just like to comment that just because Scarf Keldeo and Terrakion aren't common at the moment doesn't mean they'll always be uncommon. The metagame is only a couple of weeks old, and it'll probably be a while before it actually settles. From what I've seen on PO and PS!, this metagame still has that new car smell where everyone is trying out new stuff and updated old stuff. Once we get official usage stats in the next couple of days, we'll be able to make a better judgement of which common speed tiers you'll want to outspeed, and that will probably change as the metagame settles over the next couple of months.

Just thought I'd respond, but if we did this for everything then we'd start getting to major complex bannings which would defeat the purpose of not trying to complex ban.
Actually, a ban on the Blazikenite/Gengarite/etc. would be a simple ban on a single item, similar to the Soul Dew. If Mega Blaziken turns out to be a problem and regular Blaziken is not, then we could simply ban the Blazikenite without any worry of complex bans. Not that this would be the case for Blaziken (regular Blaziken is about as powerful as Mega Blaziken), but Gengar might be a good example of something where we might ban the Mega form by banning its Mega Stone while not banning the normal Pokemon.
 
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Blaziken is a dangerous physical sweeper that can Baton Pass its boosts in the event that a counter comes in, not a dedicated Baton Passer.



Blaziken is neutral to Fairy.



There are few sweepers on Blaziken's level, especially Mega Blaziken's. Very little has that combination of powerful STABs, Swords Dance, Speed Boost (at +2, pretty much nothing outspeeds you), and in Mega Blaziken's case, raw power without having to even use a Life Orb. Personally, I've been using Blaziken plenty on PO's OU ladder, and it sweeps pretty easily.



Even 252/252+ Togekiss is OHKO'd by Mega Blaziken's +2 Flare Blitz 93.75% of the time without any prior damage, so it doesn't check Blaziken at all. Azumarill does, but that's nothing new.

Literally the only things that regular Blaziken does better than Mega Blaziken are the mixed sets and maybe some kind of dedicated Baton Pass set if you wanted to abuse Leftovers.



With an Adamant nature, you're outsped by positive base 130s and Scarf base 70s at +1, as well as Scarf Terrakion/Keldeo and everything faster at +2. You might prefer Adamant for the power, but Jolly is hardly "lulzy."
1. sorry i don't see how, i think the most logical thing will be run a better sweeper (i'm not saying he can't do some sweep, tecnically the mayority SD user can)

2. I know, but weak to Water and weak to Flying (Azumarril and Togekiss)

3. Curse you can use it however you like, for me is fair, i mean Blaziken is fair for being in OU and his mega too
 
Oh, Adamant is generally better, I'm not denying that. But acting like Jolly is laughable when there are legitimate reasons to use it is a real stretch.

Also, I'd just like to comment that just because Scarf Keldeo and Terrakion aren't common at the moment doesn't mean they'll always be uncommon. The metagame is only a couple of weeks old, and it'll probably be a while before it actually settles. From what I've seen on PO and PS!, this metagame still has that new car smell where everyone is trying out new stuff and updated old stuff. Once we get official usage stats in the next couple of days, we'll be able to make a better judgement of which common speed tiers you'll want to outspeed, and that will probably change as the metagame settles over the next couple of months.



Actually, a ban on the Blazikenite/Gengarite/etc. would be a simple ban on a single item, similar to the Soul Dew. If Mega Blaziken turns out to be a problem and regular Blaziken is not, then we could simply ban the Blazikenite without any worry of complex bans. Not that this would be the case for Blaziken (regular Blaziken is about as powerful as Mega Blaziken), but Gengar might be a good example of something where we might ban the Mega form by banning its Mega Stone while not banning the normal Pokemon.

I wasn't meaning that. I'm meaning if Blaziken is banned again like last gen (without regarding Blazikenite.) You wouldn't seperate tier ban a Pokemon based solely off an Ability which so far remains to be true. (Ie Why Blaziken Blaze wasn't unbanned last gen)
 
1. sorry i don't see how, i think the most logical thing will be run a better sweeper (i'm not saying he can't do some sweep, tecnically the mayority SD user can)
But what better sweepers? Nothing else can passively boost its speed, boost its power with Swords Dance, 2HKO/OHKO pretty much everything after Stealth Rock with its STABs alone, and then Baton Pass its boosts when the going gets tough. There might be a few more consistent sweepers by virtue of their better defensive typing and/or bulk, but I can't think of one that has that much raw power and the ability to outspeed everything.

2. I know, but weak to Water and weak to Flying (Azumarril and Togekiss)
Well, Togekiss isn't really threatening at all since it'll rarely survive a +2 Flare Blitz. It's true that Blaziken has weaknesses, but all sweepers have weaknesses. It's a lot harder to actually abuse those weaknesses when Blaziken OHKOs so many Pokemon at +2 after Stealth Rock and outspeeds pretty much everything bar priority after one or two Speed Boosts.

I wasn't meaning that. I'm meaning if Blaziken is banned again like last gen (without regarding Blazikenite.) You wouldn't seperate tier ban a Pokemon based solely off an Ability which so far remains to be true. (Ie Why Blaziken Blaze wasn't unbanned last gen)
Oh, then I agree with that. I just want to make it clear that if the Mega form is a problem and the regular form is not, banning the Mega Stone would be a good course of action.
 
But what better sweepers? Nothing else can passively boost its speed, boost its power with Swords Dance, 2HKO/OHKO pretty much everything after Stealth Rock with its STABs alone, and then Baton Pass its boosts when the going gets tough. There might be a few more consistent sweepers by virtue of their better defensive typing and/or bulk, but I can't think of one that has that much raw power and the ability to outspeed everything.



Well, Togekiss isn't really threatening at all since it'll rarely survive a +2 Flare Blitz. It's true that Blaziken has weaknesses, but all sweepers have weaknesses. It's a lot harder to actually abuse those weaknesses when Blaziken OHKOs so many Pokemon at +2 after Stealth Rock and outspeeds pretty much everything bar priority after one or two Speed Boosts.



Oh, then I agree with that. I just want to make it clear that if the Mega form is a problem and the regular form is not, banning the Mega Stone would be a good course of action.

Yeah, I'm well aware of Megas just being set to banning them as an item, on other sites I was one of the people proposing or hoping that Smogon would do it that way. (And not seperate the forms as the base form can help the Mega in some instances Kangaskahn with Scrappy vs. Megakahn being walled by Ghosts)

Then again, maybe Blaziken won't be Ubers this meta. (SB I mean)
 
But what better sweepers? Nothing else can passively boost its speed, boost its power with Swords Dance, 2HKO/OHKO pretty much everything after Stealth Rock with its STABs alone, and then Baton Pass its boosts when the going gets tough. There might be a few more consistent sweepers by virtue of their better defensive typing and/or bulk, but I can't think of one that has that much raw power and the ability to outspeed everything.



Well, Togekiss isn't really threatening at all since it'll rarely survive a +2 Flare Blitz. It's true that Blaziken has weaknesses, but all sweepers have weaknesses. It's a lot harder to actually abuse those weaknesses when Blaziken OHKOs so many Pokemon at +2 after Stealth Rock and outspeeds pretty much everything bar priority after one or two Speed Boosts.



Oh, then I agree with that. I just want to make it clear that if the Mega form is a problem and the regular form is not, banning the Mega Stone would be a good course of action.
I'm lost here, are we talking about mega blaziken or regular? well, Mega lucario and Mega garchomp are better options for a full sweep if you recive a batton pass with theme is done, blaziken has a problem for sweep and is that no matter how quick it is and if he has speed boost on him, the only priority move that handles well is bullet punch, other like aqua jet and brave bird hurts him, garchomp does handle this much better and is not week to EQ, Lucario is weak to EQ but handle prioritys much better, and also don't think only togekiss, he can handle him but not as good has you think
 
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Are people seriously saying Blaziken isn't banworthy? That's hilarious. Even though it gained a few new counters, it gained the ability to use Speed Boost with Baton Pass, essentially allowing it to be not only a fearsome sweeper in its own right, but a baton passer hundreds of times better than Ninjask could have ever hoped to be. In the same set. While Talonflame and Azumarill revenge it every time, it's not like that completely destroys Blaziken's potential to sweep. That's what you have team support for. It can't even be revenged without priority because it outspeeds everything at +2 aside from a couple scarfers, and even they are outsped if Blaziken is running jolly. And the whole "unban Blaze Blaziken" argument is even worse this gen then in gen 5 because Blaze Blaziken can still easily sweep with a Blazikenite. Banning Speed Boost Blaziken AND Blazikenite just so that you can use your favorite flaming chicken in OU is preposterous. It's essentially banning most of what Blaziken is as a Pokemon just to get some watered-down version of it. Not to mention the whole complex ban policy.
 
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